Is It Time to Give up on Australia?

Would be interested to hear people's thoughts on this.

Was at an impromptu gathering of friends - a woman announced that she was moving to Texas. I was quite surprised because both of them had good incomes, kids, and were obviously having to leave a lot behind. It turns out that the husband was born in the US and was a citizen even though both of them had spent their lives there. They weren't struggling, necessarily, but they did have a large mortgage. They were worried what might happen if either of them lost their job. They would rather sell than spend their lives paying off debt. Fair enough.

Someone mentioned the health system in the US. They shrugged and said you could buy top notch health cover and still be ahead compared to Australia, when you factored in how everything else here was so much more expensive. They were already looking at buying a specific house in Austin. It looked very nice. It was 400K AUD. Everyone oohed and aahed at the picture on the phone screen and the price tag like it was a fairytale storybook.

We've seen plenty of migrant friends pack up and move back home (basically like this: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-06-08/why-these-immigrants-… ) - but this was the first "Aussie" couple in our peer group to decide to leave.

What was interesting was that it became apparent that just about everyone else in our peer group was thinking the same thing. Someone else said: "I have a UK passport, but its no better over there, its quite a bit worse". "My wife still has her Japanese passport, we've looked at it, houses are dirt cheap but I don't know what I would do for work." Another person even admitted that he was seriously thinking about the "spiritual values visa" being advertised by the Russian government.

There is a palpable sense of decline in Australia. I went to the Philippines recently for a couple of months with the children. I stayed in a cheap condo close to the downtown area and caught the ferry every day that left from the wet market. These were desperately poor people by Australian standards, but the children wore clean clothes and were playing with marbles and pogs between the baskets of fish, and the people were unfailingly polite and solicitous. I did not feel unsafe the entire time I was there, and my only complaint was that people were excessively polite and kept referring to me as "sir" even if I was just out walking casually in flip flops. Within two minutes of getting back to Australia, I had to usher my kids to another carriage because someone was having a mental health episode on the train. Im not blaming him, I don't think its a matter of assigning moral blame to any one person. We made a choice to have the kind of society we have.

Would be interested in whether others feel the same way.

Comments

    • +13

      This. Greed has taken over and also monopolises the media. The general population is complicit and too high a percentage of them just do whatever Murdoch etc want them to.

      • +9

        'The general population is complicit and too high a percentage of them just do whatever Murdoch etc want them to.'

        I'm not convinced the 'Murdoch' is to blame for the fact that Australia has rapidly gone to shit.

        • He's not.

        • +2

          Hence the etc after his name

    • -1

      I largely agree with your points outside of:

      • shelter is NOT a right
      • I really don't get the poaition of abandoning ship. How about everyone actually works hard to change the situation. Adjust the system so it's more effecient, etc.
    • +5

      I'm too old to get out now, but if you're not, do so. It's not getting better. Australia is done.

      Yes.. But move to where? Each country has their own issues.. If they are not also suffering from a housing crisis, it's the effects of climate collapse, or extremely low wages, inflation due to digital nomads, etc.

      • +3

        Exactly. There is nowhere to go, and things will get much worse in the coming decades. I'm glad someone else seems to have their finger on the pulse.

      • "The World Has Turned to Shit" and "Things Were Better In My Day" is a sure sign you're old - and mentally old too.

        Guess what fellas - the world has always had an awful lot of shit, and the only reason you think things were better in your day is because in your day you were young and healthy.

        In Australia wages, after accounting for inflation, are approximately double what they were when I was a young adult (in the 70s). Life expectancy is a full decade longer, and the burden of disease has dropped massively. The air is far cleaner, travel of all sorts - planes, cars, even rail and buses, is so much cheaper and easier. Crime rates are much lower. We now generally manage to stay out of stupid wars on the other side of the world, which we have a long history of not doing. Most of all, people are far more tolerant of outsiders - the worst forms of bigotry are now pretty much confined to uneducated old guys like a couple on this board.

        Sure, there are some things that a big population has made worse - notably the cost of housing (though quality is massively improved) and too much of the bush has been destroyed - but on balance Australia is a far happier and healthier place than it was 50 years ago.

    • Welcome to late stage capitalism

  • +49

    spiritual values visa" being advertised by the Russian government.

    Is this meant to be a joke?
    Anyways don't let the door hit you on the way out

    • +42

      Putin wants more disposable frontline troops?
      .

      • +6

        Thank God here in Australia we never involve ourselves in long, drawn out pointless wars that involve thousands of people dying for no good reason.

        • +18

          'Thank God here in Australia we never involve ourselves in long, drawn out pointless wars that involve thousands of people dying for no good reason.'

          I dearly hope you were being sarcastic here OP …

      • +1

        From Western countries he wants propaganda tools. Most of who will fool themselves into thinking they are inexpendable to that psycho government/dictator.

      • +9

        The Bank of Russia raised the key rate by 100 bps to 19% in September due to high inflation, which is expected to exceed the 2024 forecast of 6.5-7.0%. Demand is growing faster than supply, prompting further rate hikes to curb inflation and return it to the 4.0-4.5% target by 2025. In August, price growth was 7.6% annualized, and inflation expectations are rising. Economic growth has slowed due to supply constraints and weaker external demand, but consumer activity remains strong, driven by rising incomes and high investment. The labor market is tight, with record-low unemployment and wage growth outpacing productivity. Tightened monetary conditions are pushing up market rates and affecting lending. Inflation risks are growing, linked to worsening foreign trade and high inflation expectations.

        https://tradingeconomics.com/russia/interest-rate

      • spiritual values visa" being advertised by the Russian government.
        He made it seem very compelling.

        Can't spell "Russian Active Measures" without "Active".

      • +4

        Bullshit in every word but if you like to eat it, you’re welcome.

      • Putin told you this personally?

      • +4

        Russia is surviving because they can still sell their resources to rogue nations, albeit at vastly discounted prices. Putin is kicking the hard economic decisions down the road and is robbing Peter to pay Paul. For instance, they had a huge pension crisis on the horizon before the invasion of Ukraine. Now, Putin is effectively spending future pension money on weapons today meaning that crisis is only going to be much, much worse in the not too distant future. He only stays in power because the majority of poorer Russians support him. If those same people can't eat or have a roof over their head, that's going to change very quickly. And this is just one problem - there are many others.

      • +5

        If you believe this you deserve to live in Russia.

    • +1

      We've made the list of list of foreign states and territories implementing policies that impose destructive neoliberal ideological attitudes that contradict traditional Russian spiritual and moral values. Single entry visa for a period of up to three months. Perhaps not useful for those swapping countries.

      • There has been plenty of news, that those people who go to russia to find their "russian dream" with special work permits and visas end up in meat grinder. I would not even think about ever going there.

    • -3

      Have a look at the cost of groceries in Russia! Australians are being bled dry for a fact.

      • +2

        Have you forgotten about the difference in wages?
        Go have a look then come back and say the same thing

        If its that good why don't you go join the meat grinder?

        • As predicted someone highlights a fact you come back with “if it’s that great….”. There’s obviously positives and negatives to both places. Groceries for a fact are too expensive. I’m glad there’s absolutely nothing wrong with Australia in your eyes. I was merely pointing out a basic human need which is food fyi!

          • +2

            @AussieDolphin: I’m glad there’s absolutely nothing wrong with Australia in your eyes

            Stop lying i never said that
            Australia has food banks, community gardens i doubt russia has any of that and why dont you get off your lazy ___ and grow some of your own to reduce the cost of food if you are finding it to expensive?
            Off to the meat grinder if you like russia or are you a keyboard warrior

            • -1

              @Loot N Plunder: Far from lazy! Food banks is one thing but not everyone can access that! Please don’t bother replying. You’re quite a rude person.

              • @AussieDolphin: The truth hurts
                And i will reply
                Australia we get a vote
                russia you get the most corrupt dictator on the planet>putin
                so what is stopping you from moving?
                Ill tell you
                you will never be so well off if you left

          • +8

            @AussieDolphin: Surely you need to look at purchasing power parity. I've been friends with a Russian lady at work for a few years now, so I've learnt a bit.

            My understanding, even in Moscow (the highest paid area of Russia) the salaries of office workers, or teachers, police etc. are $10,0000-20,000 AUD a year for full time work. Whereas Australia is more like $75,000-$95,000.

            So, 5-7x salaries, is food 5-7 cheaper?

            Milk seems to be 63 roubles (98c) a litre. Worse in Russia.
            Loaf of bread 50 roubles (60c). About the same.

            Just two examples, but salaries in Russia vary massively, as do food costs. However I think when you dig in, you will find Russians live very humble lives.

            My friend had a good government technical job in a big city, she is significantly better off here she tells me, even when food appears to cost more, her salary is able to cover much more.

      • +1

        Not looking to be rude, but you are not accounting for truly basic economics. Obviously food prices in Russia are cheaper. As they are in Thailand, India and Syria.

        I do agree though that Australians are paying a disproportionate amount in relation to income.

        • -2

          Sadly salaries don’t reflect the never ending rises for a start.

  • +40

    There is no perfect country to live in, most have their pros and cons and people who have already decided to move will only be thinking of the positives.

    I grew up in the UK and have been in Oz 20 years and my wife is Japanese. I would prefer to live in Oz compared to these two countries.

    • +14

      I grew up in the UK and have been in Oz 20 years and my wife is

      Same only without a wife, sometimes i wonder if my wife is somewhere back in England.

    • +8

      I'm also from the UK and agree, especially with what the UK has turned into since around 2016.

      • +6

        Same here - after Brexit it's been all downhill - I don't recognise the UK in my memories.

        I used to love visiting the US but haven't been there since 2000. Given the way it is right now I wouldn't want to visit - completely divided.

        Yes - we may have crap politicians here but the Aussie way of saying IDGAF means we get past most of the rhetoric - well the majority do.

        Sure you've got the fringe and in recent times they are more vocal and at times it seems like there are more of them - but I've got faith in the majority of Aussies to be decent people.

        There's no other country I'd feel as safe in to live than here.

        Texas - as per the OP - people who vote for Ted Cruz? I wouldn't care if they were giving away free houses … no thank you.

        • +2

          You haven't been to the US for nearly 25 years but don't want to go because it is completely divided? Sorry but you are doing yourself a disservice by choosing not to go based on what you see on TV, media or read on social media. It's an election year, of course a lot of the coverage is going to be about division but that is not the reality for most people there.

          When we have an election a lot of the focus is on division, take the 'Voice' referendum for example, you'd think that is all anyone could talk about based on the media and social media and yet I didn't have a single discussion about it in real life until after it had happened (other than with my wife).

          When I visited the US last year (Dallas, DC, Boston, NYC) I didn't see a country divided, I saw people going about their lives, saw some amazing cities, had a lot of fun, never once felt unsafe. I didn't see any violence, school shootings, protests, political nonsense etc. Just had a normal holiday like I would in any other major city around the world.

          Prior to going, like many Aussies, I had this view that it was very unsafe and that Americans were rude and I found the opposite, I found Americans to be way more friendly and outgoing than Aussies and as I mentioned felt completely safe with my wife and 2 year old. Not sure why we have this culture in Australia of 'merica bad'.

      • +5

        lol yeah sorry I didn't claim to be speaking on behalf of others, just saying my (and my wife's) preference.

      • +1

        Also grew up in UK, living in Aus with the same thought - so sample size is now 2

      • +1

        Grew up in England. Retired to Australia 12 years ago. This country is great! Make that sample size +1

    • Uk has more opportunities for deverse population compared

      Aus is still white privileged, as you can who’s at the top in politics

  • +12

    I can sympathise given the mediocre-to-terrible governing of the country since the start of the 21st century. That said, a lot of the problems we face are occurring in most countries, while many others have even nastier issues to deal with - Russia certainly wouldn't be a step up in the world, even if your 'spiritual values' align with theirs.

    It's probably a case of the grass being greener on the other side of the fence. If an opportunity arises to build a life somewhere else and it excites you then it might be worth taking it. But I expect most emigrants from western countries will discover something unpleasant about their new home, even if on balance the move was worth it.

  • +1

    With the prospect of potatoes possibly getting a higher status it is time to grow roots!

  • +12

    people were unfailingly polite and solicitous

    I mean if that's your gauge for how livable or happy the Philippines is, probably it's best you do more research. I have an acquaintance who was very naive and was baited by a nice and sweet granny…..not good just not good.

    That kind of stuff isn't systematic in Australia so I think if anyone starts having thoughts that the grass is always greener on the other side they need a reality check.

    With having said that if you're retired or single, yeah sure why not travel around and experience things. But with kids/family, yeah nah.

  • +8

    I just got back from a 2-3 week holiday in Italy (went for Monza Formula 1 etc). I am now back home in Adelaide enjoying a two week break before returning to work. I have been to a few of the other large western countries and have never had a bad time.

    I wouldn't give up my lifestyle here unless we could move to NZ (Wanaka) and keep the same work life balance and debt levels.

    However, if I was younger and just starting out. I could definitely see myself moving to a country where you might potentially get a better head start.

    • +5

      I could definitely see myself moving to a country where you might potentially get a better head start.

      This also applies to a new start.

      A friend here with an American wife (was happy here for a couple decades) was doing very well, his business then suddenly failed on one bad job and he fell into a massive depression. Couldn't recover and "get living" again for a couple of years. Had to eventually sell the nice house to cover business debts. His wife suggested they consider the US, mostly because they could sell up here and move there and still get into their own place with some money left over to keep them going while they land on their feet. They did. Bought a mcmansion in some pretty Charlotte NC suburb for like $400K, the sort of place real estate agents would be drooling over here. They are both employed now, their kids going through the standard motions, etc. Last time we saw them in person they were there about 5 years and said life was doing them well.

      The cost of entry into your own home is a massive determiner of comfort and security, and therefore a bunch of other important outcomes - we are doing very badly in this regard. (Same for businesses - so much innovation stifled by the inability to get started due to shocking rents.) Plus the other things too.

    • (went for Monza Formula 1 etc)

      Humble brag much!

      wouldn't give up my lifestyle here unless we could move to NZ (Wanaka)

      I'm from NZ too (Auckland) but not sure about Wanaka. What is keeping you here than going back?

      I haven't been to Auckland but I've heard it's gone to shit… Crime up, gangs in control, more than enough homeless and dangerous people in the CBD. Kinda sounds foreign now.

      • +4

        Im actually from Adelaide. Last time we went to Auckland it did seem to have a high number of homeless around compared to some Australian cities.

        But yea. My wife loves Wanaka. And I love that area as I have a lot of outdoorsy hobbies (mtb, cars, snowboarding, kayaking, hiking). Suits us well. But to have a nice new Scandinavian styled house in that area is pretty much only for the wealthy 1%.

        We were so lucky seeing Ferrari win at monza! Amazing experience.

  • +10

    remind your american friends to keep their dogs and cats locked up …

    what a wonderful stupid time to be alive

  • +39

    Having visited the US about 5 times, inc Austin - I would never live there. Inferior food, added taxes and tips, too many guns, extreme media propaganda, overly religious, huge wealth divides, grind culture with few worker rights.

    But if you're rich, and earn US$300k plus a year, a lot of these problems are removed and you can enjoy the diverse country.

    Aus is not perfect, and sadly isn't planning for a future complex economy - but it's more egalitarian.

    • I disagree about inferior food, there's a lot of crap sure, but in general the US has much better food options.

      • +15

        Lol, if you're talking about fast food options then sure… Food over there sucks generally and fresh fruit and veg is outrageously expensive.

        • +1

          How is it more expensive? We lived in Texas, and groceries for a family of four cost us 1,200 USD per month (including some organic items that were just as good in quality as Australian ones). There were also many nearby farms where you could pick strawberries, peaches, and more.

          But here in Australia, it’s over 2,000 AUD.

          Also, taxes work differently in the USA. If your partner doesn’t work, you pay less tax because the system is based on household income rather than individual income, unlike in Australia.

          • +1

            @Krepokrip: When was thig? I just got back from Oregon, Washington state and California a few weeks ago and bought roughly my same fruit and veg groceries in a few times from different locations and it was on average 3x the price I get them for here in Aus. It was the same when I was there this time last year too.

            I pay about $30-$35 here for my weekly fresh fruit and veg from the market, maybe $10 more at the supermarket. USA it was on averge close to $100USD for the same fruit/veg. I remember and took a photo of even just a small container of sliced pineapple no more then a few bites was like $9usd.

            • +2

              @SkMed: Pre-COVID Texas, but I checked prices at HEB grocery stores online, and it’s still pretty cheap now. What kind of fruits are you getting for $35 here? We shop at farmers markets and Woolies, but we can’t hit those numbers. Even our local fruit and veggie stores aren’t much cheaper, and the quality is just meh.

        • Might depend on what you get and when? Last year I remember getting bananas in various states and thinking 'damn these bananas are soooo cheap compared to Australia'. I can't remember other things but I felt like strawberries and watermelon were comparable to here.

          • @Nebargains: I think my weekly fruit and veg is pretty stock standard. Ususally 5 green apples Apples, 5 Bananas, 1 broccoli, 2 Onion, 1 garlic, 1 chillies, mushrooms, 3 carrots, bunch of asparagus, bunch of broccolini, 1x red and green Capsicum, 2 tomatoes, 4 potatoes, 2 lebanese cucumbers, sometimes from chinese broccoli or rocket, Approx $30-35 here each week. That same shop cost me around $100 usd over there multiple times, all just expensive items on their own, no noticable one or two exotic things that increased the price.

            The only one of those I remember being cheaper was the Asparagus, but only because they sell them in bunches which are like 3x bigger than in Aus, so when dividing that by about 3 it was cheaper. Everything else far more expensive.

  • +26

    The grass is always greener on the other side. We have low crime rate, high wages, somewhat decent health care, low social unrest, and we also have the world's biggest moat around us.

    You could try Malaysia, most people there speak English, and the infrastructure there is good. No natural disasters and little violent crimes.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/malaysia/comments/11z3gfh/tell_me_w…

    The most obvious downside is the heat and humidity. (which many Aussies can't tolerate) and it's also not a good retirement destination.

    • +1

      why not for retirement? I know they made a long term visa less appealing with requirements to buy property of a certain value but not curious as to why it's not a good retirement option as general living cost seems low with a good affordable healthcare system

    • +7

      Hahah my parents escaped from Malaysia 30 years ago due to the entrenched legal racism against minorities there. Policies which still havent changed btw.

      • +5

        Twenty years ago in a hospital here in Australia I worked with a girl from Malaysia who was of Chinese descent, and she told me that her family were essentially treated as 'second class citizens' in Malaysia. Is that the sort of thig you are referring to I-13?

        • +5

          I remember listening to a podcast recently interviewing an Aussie who had lived in Malaysia. The Aussie said everyone had gathered at the window of his high rise at his work, and were looking down at the river. A body was eventually fished out. One of his co-workers said "never mind, it was just an Indian" and they all went back to work.

          I believe this anecdote was from some time ago (20+ years), but yeah, racism can be pretty extreme in many parts of South East Asia.

          • +8

            @Lurk Hartog: Yes it can be, racism is definitely not a white "privilege". White societies tend to be more self conscious about it.

      • The Chinese-Malaysians are certainly not "minorities", far from that, and have been there for centuries.

        I have been there and have experienced first hand racism (…aka discrimination based on race).it was pretty bs (as is racism) and I could understand why the Chinese there had little affinity with the native Malays. It is institutionalised (like apartheid) to "limit" the Chinese Malaysians, as they are too successful compared to the Malays. The policies were created to empower the majority native Malays

      • Racism is wonderful thing in Malaysia. It teaches us about the differences of every race in detail so we can call our neighbors names while living in a harmonious manner. This is also where the fabulous mix of food culture is born. The people of different colours communicate and well versed in various languages. We accept and tolerate different races antics while we make jokes about it. Malaysians can live in a peaceful and friendly country but it's the government and religious party that always instigates discrimination between races and impose religion practices on the people.

  • +7

    Someone mentioned the health system in the US. They shrugged and said you could buy top notch health cover and still be ahead compared to Australia, when you factored in how everything else here was so much more expensive. They were already looking at buying a specific house in Austin. It looked very nice. It was 400K AUD.

    Median house price in Austin is 650K AUD, and you need to spend more than that if you want a nice house in a good area.

    Healthcare is much more expensive and even if you have good coverage, you often still have to pay out of pocket.

    If there wasn't a gun violence problem, I would happily live in the US again.

  • -6

    Sack AUstralia.

    World class healthcare system in gulf countries like UAE, Kuwait, Qatar and Saudi. I have family and white skinned true blue all Australians move to Qatar and Dubai and they love it. Weather is a bit turd but there infrastructure makes up for it.

    Australia is a place if you want to contribute nothing to the world except export ore from the ground.

    • +9

      Maybe UAE is fine, but most of the countries you mentioned don't have the best human rights records.

        • +6

          Bit triggered there I see.

        • +3

          what about
          what about
          what about

          A bit of whataboutism

        • -1

          "if you don't like it, fa off"

          comes to mind.

        • "women feel safe to go out at night in the Gulf"

          Women are allowed to go out at night in Saudi Arabia now? By themselves?

          • -1

            @SwarlesBarkley:

            Women are allowed to go out at night in Saudi Arabia now? By themselves?

            Saudi is totally westernised now for the worst. Women are wild, can drive anywhere, no longer have to wear headscarves outside the 2 holy cities, concerts, hotel bars, list goes on…

      • -2

        Australia’s all about the “fair go,” right? Yet here we are, getting called out by Sweden and Norway for human rights violations. They’ve got it right they’re standing for equality while we’re still letting First Nations people, refugees and other minorities get treated like second-class citizens.

        Basic rights? Nah, we’re busy silencing their voices and ignoring their pain. Trust me, future generations are going to look back at us and ask, what were you thinking?

        The government? They’ve pulled a page from Plato’s Republic, spinning “noble lies”. We want to believe we’re past the days of locking women up for “hysteria.” But let’s face it today’s minorities are facing the same systemic injustices, just wrapped in a prettier package making it easier to swallow.

        • -2

          we’re still letting First Nations people, refugees and other minorities get treated like second-class citizens.

          …how?

          We VOTED against changing our constitution which would give First Nations people special privileges.

          We ALL stood up for our "fair go" ideal.

          (And thank god. I'm from NZ, where they have that kind of "positive discrimination", a nice way of saying government-backed racism)

          • @smartProverble: I know of Aboriginal people tackled by police simply for being Black. I’ve heard people argue entire they should be jailed, as if their existence itself were a crime. For many minorities, discrimination is inherited at birth.

            Police even make up shit to serve the narrative. One story haunts me: a young woman who fought off a sexual assault was labeled 'mentally unstable'; which she wasn't by the police. They tried to erase her truth. It wasn’t until other women risked their safety to back her up that the police admitted their mistake. But the man who attacked her walked free.

            In another case, a woman defending herself against an abusive husband was the one arrested. The police, called to help, instead labeled her unstable. She was an aspiring EMT at the time another dream shattered by injustice.

            These aren’t isolated incidents. They’re examples of the prejudice that once jailed people for being gay or 'hysterical.' We’ve just changed the labels, but the discrimination endures.

            • @OhmSweetOhm: Those are examples of say corruption… But not systematic racism.

              • -1

                @smartProverble: It's precisely systematic racism. Our political, legal, and economic systems were constructed to maintain existing power structures, and nowhere is this more evident than in our prisons. The fact that the mentally ill, the poor, and Indigenous people are overrepresented in these institutions is no accident. This is a system designed to push the most vulnerable to the margins, ensuring that they remain there.

                I’ve seen how the gears of this system turn, grinding people down. Aaron Swartz, co-founder of Reddit, found himself hounded by the legal system for downloading academic papers; a minor transgression by any reasonable standard. The pressure became so unbearable that he took his own life. His story mirrors that of many others who are crushed under the weight of a legal system that prioritizes punishment over justice. And for those already marginalized by poverty or mental illness, the system offers no reprieve. Prisons become cages where their struggles only deepen, and the whole world becomes their prisons once released black listed from most of society.

                There’s an argument often made that prisons are necessary for public safety. But if that’s the case, why are so many incarcerated for non-violent offenses? Why do we lock up the mentally ill instead of helping them? Why do we release them think that suffering will magical cure them? The fact is, prisons aren’t about making society safer. They’re about maintaining control. The same communities are targeted again and again, trapped in cycles of incarceration that span generations.

                People like to argue that personal responsibility plays a role, and it does; but that argument ignores the reality of systemic barriers. Poverty, mental illness, and racial discrimination aren’t personal failings; they’re products of a system designed to disadvantage certain groups. When we blame individuals, we divert attention from the larger institutional forces at play. And by doing so, we allow the system to continue functioning exactly as it was meant to; perpetuating oppression while appearing fair.

                We may think we’ve moved beyond the injustices of the past, but our modern systems are just as oppressive. The language has changed, the structures have evolved, but the core purpose remains the same. And until we confront that reality, the cycle will continue.

                • @OhmSweetOhm: Racism is unconstitutional. Our laws are not racist.

                  They may "maintain existing power structures" but that is not racism.

                  …ask our successful non-white immigrants who came with nothing…

    • +3

      I spent quite some time in the region and wouldn't put all these countries into one sentence. UAE (and Oman and somewhat Bahrain) is one thing and Qatar, Kuwait and Saudi is a whole different bunch, both for quality of life and the ability to perform any reasonably meaningful Western style work, with some notable exceptions like Aramco, some telcos and banks

      Now that said, if you don't have kids the first three countries are very nice destinations to make tax free money to build up a deposit for example. With children, the user pays system hits you hard and you end up no better off and frequently worse off than in Australia financially, with worse lifestyle too as 50-60hr work weeks are still pretty much a norm there.

  • +7

    Without getting into the political or ideological reasonings (because they are wide and varied for everyone coming or going), our family has been looking at returning to Ireland more seriously in the last 5-10 years.

    We are all dual citizens of various persuasions, the only thing holding us back was the property price boom over there, child access to citizenships, retirement etc. Most of thats now resolved and I spend my days stalking PropertyPal and Daft 🙄

    In terms of bang for buck, you get a lot more property compared to here plus easier access to services from regional. That being said, land tax anywhere in the isles is extortionate and there's no real drive to modernise certain services in the west, for example. I suppose, that's hardly different from Australia and living outside of a metro area.

    It really depends what you want. Teacher I work with has bought a chataeu in France and thats his retirement plan. If people want to cash out and the Australian govt isnt incentivising them to stay, well 🤷‍♀️

    • I was reading recently that migration from Ireland to Australia is the highest it's been for a long time. Like Australia, property for young people is becoming unattainable and there is growing anger at Ireland's inward migration policies. At least in Australia there's plenty of work and wages are, generally, high. But if you think about it, for many generations, Ireland's greatest export was her people. That changed over the last 30-40 years as Ireland got its sh1t together but is now returning to trend - so nothing new.

      • +1

        Yes there is a great issue with internal politics atm in Ireland where people are told there's no work and no opportunities but then theres an importation of huge numbers of people and planting them across the Gaeltacht. The Garda are haemorrhaging people and so greater civil unrest is likely.

        Ireland, like many other European nations, will continue to undergo massive internal struggles as it comes to terms with the realities of what being part of the EU means and as certain political parties lose grip on the realities faced by local populations.

        For us, our desire to return to our familial suburb in Dublin has been doused and we're now looking elsewhere, both north and south.

      • I thought it's been the same old theme since 1916?

  • +1

    IMHO the decision to move depends on your individual circumstances. Australia is one of the best countries to be if you're young-ish, have a decent job and you're looking to further your career, or if you're at the other end of the spectrum and work a low wage job.

    If you have assets and/or a bit of money saved up, are in your 40s and up, there are far better countries in EU/SEA/SA you could move to, especially if you have a big mortgage here.

  • +14

    They were worried what might happen if either of them lost their job.

    so moving to Texas offers a better option if either of them lost their jobs? The US is known for its rather generous safety net :/

    • +7

      good luck if you get sick in the US. a simple cold will set you back hundreds, better yet if you are sick with a serious illness AND unable to work, that money you saved on the cheaper house won't last long.

    • +3

      That's what I was thinking….

      They're picking a worse country to move to. Like if you're sick of Australia, fine but US isnt any better. I'd argue it's a worse choice. I've visited US a few times over the last 20 years and each time I've been it's progressively been getting worse to the point where I won't be returning.

      I'd be moving to a country in Europe/UK. Maybe Finland.

  • +9

    For what it's worth as a new grad I have found that the system (for housing and taxes) is genuinely very stacked against me despite my decent salary. (I know it's a common trope on here but I was very lucky to land a great graduate role in tech on ~150k). I just feel like I cant make any progress. A friend I made at work is looking to buy their first house with their partner - for 1.3 MILLION. I just cannot compete here. I am probably going to move to the states soon as they have a better tech scene and I worked out that after tax I would be just so far ahead in terms of disposable income that it really is laughable.

    I am happy to be brain drain. If enough other people also talk with their feet and leave then maybe the system here will change for the better. The saying "go where you are treated best" has always been true. I see no reason to stay here when it's so hard to build wealth when I could double my take home pay just by changing where I live. I will add that if I was looking to start a family and settle down once I have built up some wealth then I would 100% move back here to raise kids, as there's no chance I'd do that in the US (safety but also frankly I think the education system here creates smarter kids in the right places). But overall for someone in their early - mid career I don't see any good reasons to avoid moving to the US.

    • +1

      I think the education system here creates smarter kids in the right places

      Most employees at NASA are Amercian though /s

      early - mid career I don't see any good reasons to avoid moving to the US.

      I would say go for it. If it doesn't work out / you miss home, you usually always have the option of coming back.

    • +19

      You earn 9K a month after tax… and "cant make a progress". You probably need to look at your life style

    • +2

      I was very lucky to land a great graduate role in tech on ~150k

      Well done, and good work on actually realising how much luck plays a role in gaining graduate employment. Lots of people around here have such large egos think that they somehow landed good salaries without luck being a factor at all.

      I am happy to be brain drain. If enough other people also talk with their feet and leave then maybe the system here will change for the better.

      Sadly I don't know if that will be the case. The country is deteriorating now and the effects slowly creep upwards in socioeconomic terms. It's already affected the lower class (i.e. the most vulnerable first) and the middle class is also feeling it. By the time it reaches the 1% of the upper class (i.e. the billionaires and people who control this country) it'll be too far gone. Politicians don't understand that to build great nations you need to constantly work, our system of government that changes constantly and is filled with bickering (mainly to push ideological agendas) doesn't work.

  • +14

    Yes, I feel the same way.
    I'm 31, wife is 29 and we've just had our first child. We're renting, locked out of the property market. I have enough for a deposit but see the market as inflated/leveraged and don't want to sign up for some ridiculous 30 year mortgage. I'm earning a good wage and my wife doesn't have to work, while its enough to put away $1-2k a month and I'm grateful for the position I'm in, we're just coasting.
    The cost of living here is astronomical, I have 0 faith in the political elite who on both sides are just there for self-enrichment that they have the will to correct it in any way. Career politicians are a cancer.

    I was working in the UK for half of last year and things aren't much better there. The price of a typical inner city London townhouse is about the same as Melbourne, somewhat less than Sydney so wrap you brain around that one.
    Where would we go? South-East Asia appeals as I've spent some time there, my wife is also from Malaysia and you can have a good quality of life for quite cheap. Also certain countries in Europe you can do the same. My job is in IT so I have the potential luxury of being a digital nomad, how realistic this is though I'm not sure.
    There are also countries in Europe like Hungary or Portugal. Hell even Germany has a much lower cost of living and affordable housing while being a few hours drive away from France. I had colleagues from Germany stay here for extended periods of time and they were stunned at the cost of everything here, saying that they flat out couldn't afford to live here.

    Basically life in Australia no longer feels like its worth it. If you earn a good wage you get taken for an absolute ride with the cost of everything and taxes, and for what? Do you get an opportunity to build wealth through hard work? No. The standard of living has dropped to such a degree that people are looking elsewhere. Of course the government imports people thinking this is the land of milk and honey to work in our cafe's until they realise they can't afford it either.
    It's a sad decline of what once was the lucky country, which has now become the stupid country.

    • +1

      "Do you get an opportunity to build wealth through hard work?"

      Ecxatly that.

    • +3

      I have a lot of friends who moved here thinking the grass is greener. They had good job and stability back home, but ended up working mostly in retail setting or holding multiple jobs to make end meets. Many wonder why they are even here, but they also said that they can't go back and start over again.

  • +13

    I'd understand if you said you are moving to Malaysia or Philippines. But Texas? There's literally nothing that Texas has over Australia except cheap housing, and can I tell you it's cheap for a reason.

    A regional town like Orange in NSW would be leaps and bounds better than TX that's around the same price

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