Is It Time to Give up on Australia?

Would be interested to hear people's thoughts on this.

Was at an impromptu gathering of friends - a woman announced that she was moving to Texas. I was quite surprised because both of them had good incomes, kids, and were obviously having to leave a lot behind. It turns out that the husband was born in the US and was a citizen even though both of them had spent their lives there. They weren't struggling, necessarily, but they did have a large mortgage. They were worried what might happen if either of them lost their job. They would rather sell than spend their lives paying off debt. Fair enough.

Someone mentioned the health system in the US. They shrugged and said you could buy top notch health cover and still be ahead compared to Australia, when you factored in how everything else here was so much more expensive. They were already looking at buying a specific house in Austin. It looked very nice. It was 400K AUD. Everyone oohed and aahed at the picture on the phone screen and the price tag like it was a fairytale storybook.

We've seen plenty of migrant friends pack up and move back home (basically like this: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-06-08/why-these-immigrants-… ) - but this was the first "Aussie" couple in our peer group to decide to leave.

What was interesting was that it became apparent that just about everyone else in our peer group was thinking the same thing. Someone else said: "I have a UK passport, but its no better over there, its quite a bit worse". "My wife still has her Japanese passport, we've looked at it, houses are dirt cheap but I don't know what I would do for work." Another person even admitted that he was seriously thinking about the "spiritual values visa" being advertised by the Russian government.

There is a palpable sense of decline in Australia. I went to the Philippines recently for a couple of months with the children. I stayed in a cheap condo close to the downtown area and caught the ferry every day that left from the wet market. These were desperately poor people by Australian standards, but the children wore clean clothes and were playing with marbles and pogs between the baskets of fish, and the people were unfailingly polite and solicitous. I did not feel unsafe the entire time I was there, and my only complaint was that people were excessively polite and kept referring to me as "sir" even if I was just out walking casually in flip flops. Within two minutes of getting back to Australia, I had to usher my kids to another carriage because someone was having a mental health episode on the train. Im not blaming him, I don't think its a matter of assigning moral blame to any one person. We made a choice to have the kind of society we have.

Would be interested in whether others feel the same way.

Comments

  • There's companies that try to get people to emigrate. It the 90's it would be seminars. Now there are more sophisticated ways to market that. It's not a small "sale" my guess is something like $30k costs average.

  • +3

    I don't think so. I now live in Perth (previously in UK and eastern USA) and couldn't really imagine living elsewhere. Perth's only fault is its boring. As a middle-aged, average-ability IT manager, though my quality of life has never been higher. I love the USA, but its political polarisation (which was already pretty bad when I lived there a decade ago) is now genuinely frightening, and the UK… well the UK is now frankly depressing.

  • +1

    400k AUD for a house in Austin would be an absolute POS

    • +2

      Exactly, hardly any 'fairytale' homes
      https://tinyurl.com/mw489swm

      • Um… You are being… Sarcastic right?

    • Way better than anything you can get in a capital city in Australia. You'd likely be limited to townhouses or units in Australia unless you want to live outside 10-15k ring of CBD.

      • +1

        Which brings an interesting question: are those $400K houses in Texas outside 10-15km ring of CBD too?

        Probably a lot more.

        • I'm not sure either…but I don't know enough about Austin/Texis to comment.

          The cities may not be laid out like Australian cities where this is a CBD where everyone 'works'. Take LA for example. You don't want to venture into downtown LA for anything - unless you want to get stabbed/mugged or buy fentanyl?

          • +1

            @eek:

            unless you want to get stabbed/mugged or buy fentanyl?

            Or unless you happen to work in a federal government office … my sister does. She even takes the train (or whatever is called).

  • +2

    I feel this way quite often.

    We are constantly told we have to build more houses because prices are through the roof.

    We don't have to build so many houses, if we don't let thousands upon thousands into our country.

    The new houses are all trash, degrading our way of life. All built on top of each other. Small blocks and houses that cost more!

    It's basically our government playing politics, to stay in power and keep the Ponzi scheme going. Australia needs a recession, needs a correction. But no one has the balls to do it because they would likely be voted out.

    The system, of mass debt to the eye balls. Working everyday just to make ends meet needs to end. You could buy alot more for your money 10-15 years on average wage. Now it seems,, those days are gone and you get told to move interstate or regional areas.

    Even to move homes, you are hit with stamp duty another joke. Punished for wanting a smaller mortgage.

    Because moving away from you family who provide support is great for your health right? The government created the dual income, both at work and day care life style.

    How about no? Stop acting with greed and fix the housing crisis.

  • +2

    Let them go, plenty of people even on OzB that are so proud of their home country, just not proud enough to live there which I find incredible funny, but incredibly gutless and embarrassing for them.

  • +3

    It depends on your stage of life.
    If you're working then Australia probably still is one of the best places to live in spite of a dysfunctional political system that is rigged against the best interests of the average Australian, eg. having the second most expensive property prices in the world is not something to be proud of and completely unnecessary.

    If you're not working or work remote then there are plenty of better destinations. Cheaper, easier, as good or better medical facilities, etc etc.

  • +1

    You went to phillipines and now you dont want to stay in Australia.
    How come so many phillipinos are running away from the phillipines?
    They are desperate to migrate.

    I know some philipinos in Australia and no one talks of ever going back to Phillipines.

    11% of phillipinos live overseas.Thats a huge humongous percentage.

    You may feel like there are too many indians or chinese in Australia etc.But only a fraction of them live abroad.

    Maybe 1% of China and India's 1.5 Billion population lives abroad compared to 11% of Phillipinos.

    • +1

      The difference is, in the Philippines he is a gringo, while the Filipinos are not.

  • Any decent first world country is going through the same issue.

  • +3

    hahahaha… good luck!

    You think the USA is better than Australia?!?! Good luck with the gun violence, health system, education system… pretty much EVERY system! You think people go to the US to retire?!? Australia' isn't perfect, but its a hell of a lot better than the USA at all stages of life. Go look at the world ranking for quality of life, life expectancy, education etc. In every single measure the USA is no where near the top.

    Don't get me wrong… we have to tie our wagon to one superpower, and the USA is definitely that superpower in terms of society and values. But that doesn't any of us want to live there!

    They are the modern day Rome (the dying days of Rome). Crippling debt levels, society on the brink of collapse, and any resemblance of truthfulness has completed evaporated.
    Trump's popularity is a symptom not a cause of their issues. Trump, Vance, Taylor-Green etc… the fact that so much of the population believes in these freaks is because of poor uneducated and highly impressionable people voting for them.

    I wouldn't visit the US with my family for a few weeks, let alone live there with them! I think you're crazy to even consider doing so- but I really think you should re-evaluate the points you've made as "positives". You're 'alternative facting' all over the place.

  • +3

    I have lived in Australia all my life and have come to the conclusion that it is not the best country for me. It is very much a personal thing based on your own personality and wants and needs in life.

    Over the last 20 years I have witnessed nothing but decline of the country. Poor wages, higher tax, higher prices, no housing, expoltative systems all over the place. I dont know how anyone survives and I cant see how any young person can make their own headway without depending on generational wealth. It would simply not be possible.

    I dont want to stay here anymore…but I have little choice. Im locked in as I have a young family here. I am not going to say this country is rubbish….I will simply say…its not for me. I would much rather live in Japan if I had a choice. Rule of law, good use of space, lowest crime, little violence, people respective of one another…and 40% cheaper than here!!! It is by no means a perfect country…as I like to say it is "Perfect for me!!". Others will feel different.

    • +5

      Japan is a great place to visit but to live in it also has its challenges. Unless you have a cushy expat or tourist job (teaching english etc) life for the average Japanese is difficult - corporate culture is brutal, overtime and 60-80hr weeks are expectation and the norm. the economy is stagnant and housing in the big cities are similarly out of reach for young people, while the beautiful rural communities waste away due to aging population and lack of jobs. They are known for having one of the highest suicide rates in the world. That and it's a very traditional society that does not accept foreigners, with a lot more misogyny at worst and 'traditional female roles' if you want to be euphemistic

      • +2

        I agree with everything you have said.

        As I said in my post, I dont think there is a single perfect country….but for me as my life is right now, Japan would be a lot better. That may change…

    • +3

      I would much rather live in Japan if I had a choice. Rule of law, good use of space, lowest crime, little violence, people respective of one another…and 40% cheaper than here!!! It is by no means a perfect country…as I like to say it is "Perfect for me!!". Others will feel different.

      This scans like someone without any ties or experience with Japan. How much experience do you have with the country - any relatives there or have to spent much time there?

      As a foreigner with a good job, it can be a wonderful Sanrio twee playground.

      But it's facing a looming demographic crisis, has some of the most restrictive cultural rules of any first world nation, and is close to impossible to integrate into.

  • +16

    I've lived in three continents - North America, Asia and Australia.

    Australia is the easiest place in the world to live. It's truly easy mode. There are no consequences here to anything. Any idiot can thrive here. Welfare is ridiculously strong. You have free healthcare. OP thinks healthcare in America is better? Lol, what a laugh.

    Yeah, go to Texas. See how you like gun safety over there. There are a few decent places in Texas (Austin, for example) but you better hope you have good employer healthcare and you don't need welfare or a pension.

    Australia is as easy as it gets. If your life here is shit, my tip is - don't think it'll be better anywhere else. You're playing the game on Very Easy mode as it is.

    • +2

      I agree that Australia is playing life on easy mode.

      If you can't make it here, goodluck trying to hustle in the other developed Western countries.

      And for all those with dreams of an easy life in Asia. Please check your privilege. Only reason they treat you well is because you are an expat living the life of the 1% over there.

    • +1

      Australia is the easiest place in the world to live.

      One can only come to this conclusion if one has ever lived in other parts of the world. Holiday doesn't count ofc.

    • There are no consequences here to anything. Any idiot can thrive here. Welfare is ridiculously strong. You have free healthcare.

      This explains a lot. Ignorance is bliss. Until one day the pits run out minerals we're using to fund all the freebies.

    • The healthcare in the US is definitely better, if you can afford it….

      The whole system is a scam but you can get incredibly high levels of care

    • Europe, US, Asia, Australia. Australia is def easy mode compared to other countries. In my experience at least, YMMV.

      Saying that, your life may be bad over here in Oz and sometimes a change can be better. There are pros and cons to all countries and some countries may just be better suited to your personal situation.

  • You shouldn't be asking questions like that here. This is an Australian website with Australian people with an Australian bias. Don't expect objective non bias opinions. This is like saying fox news is fair and balanced

    • +1

      Hang on a sec!!!!!!!!!! Bit bothered with what you have said!

      "Shouldnt be asking question like that here" ??

      Why? Surely everyone has the freedom to ask anything here…and everyone has the absolute freedom to respond in a manner the say fit.

      • You can post whatever you want What I'm trying to say is this is not best place get objective non bias answers, other sites are better. The OP is asking "Is It Time to Give up on Australia?" to Australian people. What answer do you expect? It's like you're getting a lot of answers from fishes telling you how to fish

        • You're going to have this issue regardless of who you ask.

          If you ask non-Australians who don't live in Australia then how the hell would they know besides warped media representations?

          If you ask Australians not living in Australia they're probably biased against it.

          There's no way to get a non-biased answer unless you focus on purely objective measures, and realistically Australia is going to perform highly on those. They also won't capture general sentiment of what its like living here which you need subjective measures for.

          You mention "other sites" being better - what exactly are those that have less bias, or are you just going to point to random cooker forums?

          • @DingoBilly: That's what I'm trying to say, get more opinion and perspectives from all types of people. Of course there's going to be bias everywhere. Get on a website like reddit

  • +2

    I'm earning as much as i can, buying as many properties as i can then going off to Malaysia to stay 6 months a year once the kids go off to Uni.

  • +1

    i hope everyday Aussies can wake up and bring the traitors in Canberra to account for the mess they're making instead of having to leave the country.

    • +3

      How will they 'bring them to account'?

      • -2

        Ideally, treason charges for importing a million immigrants during a housing crisis. realistically though, just voting the pr*cks out.

        • lol treason

        • so electing Dutton you mean? Is he less treasonous?

  • I don't love the state of Australia right now and if my UK passport still had the power it once did I'd look at my options in europe (would of course need to learn a language!). But as for English speaking countries there isn't a better option than right here.

  • -8

    I've never lived overseas, but I've spent several years split over dozens of countries, and I want to dispel a myth or two.

    America is not violent, horrible, nor expensive. It is empowered, honest, diverse. In America I suffered a significant injury that would normally require going to the hospital to treat, but a good samaritan who happened to be nearby took it upon himself to treat me then and there, and several others did what they could to help too - at the end of the day, I got the 'healthcare' I needed and paid $0 for it. By contrast, I find the Australian system is more about bullshitting you to make you feel better. You go on a months long waiting list for a young Indian import with a dubious qualification to yank a tooth out in 5 minutes, or to see a 'specialist' who prescribes you a medication in exchange for his $80-$200 appointment fee or puts you on a 1 year waiting list for a procedure to see if that cyst inside you turned cancerous 7 months before said procedure. My observation is that healthcare can often actually do very little for you, and it's the immediate kind that is most useful.

    Just as how in many asian countries it's striking how 'polite' people are, it is striking how 'chaotic' America is, which in turn can be perceived as stimulating, or dangerous, or unequal. For this reason, I hesitate to describe America as 'trusting' in spite of the above story I relate, because the truth is that you can't trust everyone when all sorts of people are empowered and motivated to do what they want, but what I will say is that you will find easily people you can trust amongst the whole. And it sounds worse than it is; the more accurate way of summing it up is that what goes on in America is what you see in GTA or American TV shows/movies. Maybe it's just me, but I always thought of it a creative realm of fantasy, or at least an exaggeration of American life.. but when you go there, you realize there's often no exaggeration and these people and their way of life and dramas exist.

    In the asian countries, and the rest of the world generally, you get a dearth of trust. Not necessarily because of bad genes, but because most of the people in these societies are dis-empowered and are too scared to take the risk to help out. It's a meme at this point, but it's worth reaffirming, particularly when you have people lauding how polite, orderly and so forth China/Japan and even countries like Malaysia and Philippines are. This isn't necessarily a dealbreaker, especially if it's Japan, and/or if you're averse to other people to begin with. Japan legitimately is a great place, but you will always be an outsider, and since having children is a big part of the meaning of life in my view, I reckon it's something best left as a frequent travel destination. Other places in asia are horrendous, not just in regards to raising children there, but all aspects of daily life you wouldn't realize unless you've had a taste of it - having to buy bottled water to brush your teeth with and taking care to keep your mouth closed in the shower because the tap water is toxic, having toilets not flush/internet not work/piddling water pressure due to living in high rise apartments with shoddy infrastructure, weekly stomach cramps and runny browns from those food deliveries that people so often laud the convenience of, depressing grey smog that makes you develop an unusual chronic cough after a few weeks, and this is all before we get out the front door to deal with real danger and chaos and a complete lack of culture and authenticity.

    Europe, the less said, the better, I think. It's always been in a slow decline, and what is worthwhile about it is almost all from the distant past.

    IMO if you are a resilient or strong person or want to become empowered even if it means growing pains, America may be a good choice. If you are part of the 'new normal'/weak/vulnerable, stick to Australia, this really is one of the best countries to live in - the only real complaint I have is that it lacks excitement and culture and a taste of the high life (this is what is really meant by 'too expensive'; it's not hard at all to live a comfortable and pleasurable life here, even if you're unemployed). But for those things, we import a lot from America to fantasize about or engage in anyway. All these people ragging on America.. I bet you my bottom dollar that in a large part of the rest of their time, they are consuming American TV/movies, coca-cola, American games, American politics, American memes/internet discussion, and Big Macs. So much of what we enjoy comes from America and yet we don't appreciate it, and I'll let you in on a little secret.. all the other countries, from China to Japan to (profanity) do the same.

    • +12

      i didn't finish reading this drivel but imagine using a good samaritan helping with a minor injury to save a trip to the stupendously expensive hospital as an example of good healthcare

      • -3

        I have a young female friend who lives in China, a native Chinese citizen, who collapsed and feel unconscious on a sidewalk in the CBD heart of a bustling tier 2 city. She went out walking as the sun was rising at dawn. She woke up with a small pool of dried blood beside her as the sun was setting. No one had been willing to help or call for help. She went to a local hospital, which was 'one of the better ones', and only paid a couple of yuan to be examined with a bunch of instruments, did blood test + brain scan + chest scan, was told she had concussion and should take some chinese medicine and rest at home for another week, and concluded that it was caused by orthostatic hypotension which they prescribed her a medication for and told her to quote 'drink more tea'. A month later she had a health examination in preparation for returning to studying in Japan after an extended break, and they found she had undiagnosed type 2 diabetes, with uncontrolled and bad blood sugar levels. In other words, she probably went into a diabetic coma that day, not orthostatic hypotension, and it was easily solvable with a simple prescription of metformin. And this is just my own speculation, but I suspect the chinese doctors didn't think it could be diabetes because she is not overweight at all.

        And for Australia stories, I have so many I can tell, from seeing my father go through it in old age. But what I really want to point out here is that good healthcare vs. bad healthcare is the wrong way of framing the discussion. The reality is that any healthcare, whether it's in a grubby chinese hospital, or a Sydney one that pays its surgeons $500k/year, or the redneck who stops on the side of the road for you, it's all quite limited in what they can actually do for you. The function of having hospital buildings with hospital beds and ambulances is largely to make it seem like they're doing something. If you have something serious happen to you, this is how I found it goes down 9 times out of 10: The ambulance takes 15 minutes to 1 hour. Good luck if you actually had a heart attack or something like that. The ambulance then drives and waits around for ~2-4 hours. If you go straight to emergency department yourself, you wait for ~2-8 hours, and this is if you've had something serious happen that could get worse. Then they give you a medication or injection, i.e. blood thinner for stroke case, and then you wait a bit longer to get dumped in a hospital bed. It can take 8-12 hours from calling to getting in a hospital bed. You might not see the doctor to the next day, and the nurses are generally incompetent. Remember, these nurses are either imports from the third world or those with an ATAR of 60 who wouldn't meet the cutoff for a Bachelor of Arts degree. If anything acute that would have been fatal had have happened, you would be dead. For anything they actually do, you could just get a prescription from a doctor and/or learn how to put a bandage on yourself. If its something like cancer, your lifestyle is the biggest predictor of whether or not you will survive it without having it come back quickly, not how many times Dr. Gupta cuts you open and does his best to hack away at you. You don't want to pay for expensive healthcare in America? Maybe watch what you eat, don't put yourself in dangerous situations, and start a family to care for you instead of relying on strangers who are only in it for a quick buck. I know this anathema to some people, but while it's brutal, it's what's true, and I'd rather go with what's true than choosing to believe in an illusion of safety.

        • +4

          I actually read this post and I don't disagree with what you are saying but I can't for the life of me figure out what point you are making and how it's relevant to the discussion

          • +3

            @May4th: I only read the first sentence and concluded the point is don't move to China.

        • +1

          China has Samaritan cases. The "Samaritan" is sued after to help a sick or injured person. There are even people who pretend to be sick or injured.

          • +1

            @Cave Fire: yes hence why no one helps anyone they are scared they will get extorted for money. what a sad affair

  • +3

    The only thing that really sucks is housing, sort that out and it's one of the best places to live in the world. Safe, stable, clean, free - don't take those things for granted, most of the world doesn't have that. Other than some European countries, you're not going to find better without other tradeoffs.

  • +4

    Every time I've said something like "This country is going down the crapper." I can pretty much bet someone will come along and downvote me and say something like "Have you ever lived in [insert country here], we have it really good in this country" or "Look at the UK/US/Canada, it's must worse there" which are pretty irrelevant points and sound like something a spineless politician would say. So many replies are outright disagreeing with the OP, seemingly without any deep consideration. "My life is good so Australia must be good, if you don't like Australia you have a mental problem." It proves to me that no serious and meaningful discussion can be had here. Just because we aren't as bad as say, Sudan, doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to be better but frankly, most people seem to be happy in general with the way this country is going because hey, at least we aren't Sudan. If you complain about anything you're basically sticking your neck out and just a "whinger". Instead of constantly jerking ourselves off and patting ourselves on the back, how about we actually criticise how we're going?

    I don't think it's hard for most people who grew up here their entire life (if they've been paying attention) to see that our collective quality of life has declined over the past few decades. We've been in a per capita recession for several quarters I think meaning our individual slice of the pie is smaller than before, yet somehow people want to assert that everything is fine and dandy because we aren't Sudan? Anyone can go outside and see that nearly 1/3 of us are born overseas (leading to a less cohesive society overall which anyone should realise is not a good thing), the roads are insanely congested and pot holed (drivers also seem to be a lot more aggressive these days), there is much more competition for jobs, shopping centre car parks that were once quiet are chockers, there are homeless tent cities popping up everywhere, no one wants to join the ADF anymore because they have nothing to fight for which is why Albo is literally trying to recruit Pacific Islanders to fight our wars (which are really the US' wars). If you've watched Dash Cams of Australia over the past 10 years, a large portion of the clips these days are people driving on the wrong side of the road. 10 years ago you would not see anything that stupid in a DCOA video (and before anyone says "Well there are more dashcams so that's why you see that kind of thing more", I disagree, because if people have always driven on the wrong side of the road here then you would've seen it at approximately the same rate in videos from 10 years ago). My jaw drops at the stuff I see in those videos these days. Basic things like driving on the correct side of the road, looking both ways before turning out of a side street, stopping at a solid line seems to be like things of the past.

    Sadly though the overall deterioration of society is occurring in most developed countries. Look at places like Canada, the UK, the US, even in China the youth are giving up because they can't get jobs (i.e. "lying flat"). I personally don't think moving overseas should be the default answer to improving one's life despite many people on this planet defaulting to that mentality. "I'm so unhappy living here, if I move to X I'll be happier." I personally have no intention to turn my back on my family and friends by abandoning the country I grew up in. By moving overseas one is essentially encroaching on someone else's space simply to chase one's own happiness and to hopefully escape one's own problems, but how about one spares a thought for the citizens in the country one is moving to? The thought of being unhappy as a result of possibly getting nowhere in life and then picking up everything and moving elsewhere just rubs me the wrong way (and before anyone says it, refugees who are forced out of their country as a result of war are not the same as people who choose to leave their country). For instance do people really want hundreds and thousands of Westerners migrating to the Philippines or SE Asia? How about we ask those countries if they want hundreds of thousands of foreigners moving there first, buying all the property there, increasing aggregate demand and therefore pushing up prices of everything there for the locals?

    TL;DR Australia is objectively on the downhill. Comparing us to countries that are worse off is irrelevant when we should be comparing ourselves to ourselves 10, 20, 30 years ago. Moving overseas is dishonourable IMO because it means you're just encroaching on someone else's space. All the issues we are now seeing are ultimately a symptom of overshoot (too many people, not enough resources). Watch this video, I basically agree with every issue he has raised about this country.

    As an aside, IMO what we are seeing everywhere now is all a symptom of overshoot. There are simply too many people on this planet and not enough resources for everyone and we are starting to see cracks in the system as a result. That's why people leave their countries and migrate elsewhere in search of a "better life", i.e. a job that will provide them with an income, housing, more space to live etc. Unlike animals who mainly spend their time searching for food, humans' main resource now is money (a societal construct), and we use that money to buy things like food and shelter.

    What we are seeing now is the collapse of civilisation starting to play out. People simply have not taken the time to understand how our current world actually works (nor is it taught explicitly in high school); it works because humans found an abundant amount of energy in the form of fossil fuels. That's it. If an ancient civilisation like the Romans or Egyptians harnessed fossil fuels like we did and burned through them at the rate we have, a lot of us likely wouldn't exist today because all the fossil fuels would've been burned up a long time ago and never would've regenerated in time (if at all). We found fossil fuels which enabled farmers to mass-farm crops which freed up other people [who would've been plowing the farmland] to do useful things like engineer cars and computers. We live in a completely anomalous time in history where so much energy has been harvested and used which has allowed the human population to explode (do people seriously think this is "normal"?). I said that money is the resources for humans but in biophysical terms, energy is the real currency we should all be concerned about. I think it could even be said that global civilisation has peaked. We are already seeing population decreases in nations because of a lack of resources and willpower for people to have children, and if one is clued in one should not be surprised that the MSM is labelling population declines as a disaster, after all it's the billionaire CEOs out there that rely on other humans to grow their wealth.

    • +1

      Moving overseas is dishonourable IMO because it means you're just encroaching on someone else's space.

      This is one perspective, and ready to say if you're born here.

      Another is that you don't choose where you're born, or grow up, so it is your human right to travel freely and immigrate (legally).

      If you were born in China or India or Russia or Ukraine or Israel or North Korea or Pakistan or wherever else we consider unsafe or sh it or what not, wouldn't you want to leave too?

      • There's a difference between fleeing a country that is unsafe due to something like war (i.e. being a refugee) versus willingly abandoning your country because you're bored/need a change and aren't happy with your life (which a lot of immigrants to Australia actually move for).

        so it is your human right to travel freely and immigrate (legally).

        So it's a "human right" to be able to travel to whatever country you wish? That really depends on if the country is actually willing to accept you, and the only reason it is so acceptable in Australia is because we basically have an open-door policy when it comes to immigration these days.

    • For instance do people really want hundreds and thousands of Westerners migrating to the Philippines or SE Asia? How about we ask those countries if they want hundreds of thousands of foreigners moving there first, buying all the property there, increasing aggregate demand and therefore pushing up prices of everything there for the locals?

      Maybe go ask those SEA countries why they're coming up with more and more visas to attract as many foreigners as they can e.g. Thailand, Malaysia, etc… I've even received job offers from Japan in the past couple of years, that came with a full relocation package, as the country is struggling with its aging population.

      Also, in many countries you can't buy land at all, so assumptions of pushing up property prices for the locals makes no sense at all.

      • I don't think you can compare Japan (a developed nation with complex industry) to countries like Thailand or Malaysia that have less complex economies. There's a lot of white worship in Asia. Go to places like Indonesia and India, the locals flock around White tourists and ask to take photos with them. Companies in China often hire White people because they're [the companies] so simple-minded and pathetic they think having a white person representing their company gives them more status somehow. Justifying allowing millions of people into this country just because other countries are doing it makes no sense to me either. If a population is ageing, what sense does it make to import even more people into the country who will not only put strain on all services and infrastructure but also eventually need aged care themselves? Can you understand or foresee that importing people will lead to even more issues further down the line?

        Also, in many countries you can't buy land at all, so assumptions of pushing up property prices for the locals makes no sense at all.

        This thread is about Australia. A quickly growing Australian population which has mostly been due to immigration for a long time see the first chart in this link) + slow/restricted construction of property = property prices go up. It's quite simple to understand this. I'm not saying it's the only factor either, obviously other factors like tax breaks make investing in property an attractive investment but capital growth driven by increasing demand and limited supply is a huge factor, arguing otherwise is absurd.

        It's not even just about house prices either, it's about the dilution of culture, values, morals etc. which leads to a less cohesive society over time. How about Japan imports 30 million white people, would that be an objectively "good thing"? I don't think so, because what makes Japan Japan is the people and the culture. Shoving a bunch of white people into the country would wreck it, unless of course you think white people are superior to Japanese people (and there are many people who do think that sadly).

        • Well then going by economic complexity, Australia ranks between Uganda and Burkina Faso https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_economic_…. That's why we need to import immigrants to prop our economy or go into a very long and severe recession.

          • +1

            @RiseAndRuin: Lol, you do realise we have a boatload of immigrants who end up delivering Uber Eats right? And driving Ubers? In saying that, sure, some immigrants do work white collar jobs that Australians "supposedly" can't do. But the fact is, immigration is high to keep wages suppressed. Immigration is high to prop up the housing ponzi scheme, that's it. It's not for the benefit of the average Aussie unless you think the disappearance of bulk billing, increased competition for employment, increased congestion and overall lower quality of life is a benefit to the locals.

  • +4

    As a minimum if a person/couple works a full time job they should be able to afford a house to live in a raise a family. It’s up to governments to ensure this happens IMO.

    The reason it’s not happening isn’t a simple answer but a big driver is making property a speculative investment by making home buyers compete with investors and then providing investors an advantage. This drives up prices and increases personal debt. The flow of money is always in the direction at those who make or lobby government into policies that favour them, and it’s not the average Australian.

    The concern is the next generation of Australians will head towards being the working poor. Working full time but going backwards. You can see it happen already, young people giving up on having a home or family and instead spending money materially.

    Governments seem to favour corporations over average Australians. Part of the issue is lobbying and donations to political parties. I think this borders corruption.
    At the same time the two main political parties have people bickering about inconsequential issues, diverting attention away from policies which continue to benefit large corporations and the elite.

    I think the trajectory we are headed is set for disaster, the question is how long? At a certain point there will be no point bothering to work full time if you can’t afford to eat, house yourself and have some element of happiness. You might as well move elsewhere.

    • +1

      Investors and tax breaks have been around for decades. That’s not the main cause. It’s economics 101- demand and supply

  • +3

    I originally come from Italy and to be honest here in Australia it's heaven compared, from an opportunity and life perspectives point of view. I seriously don't know what are people complaining of. Yeah prices are up and the house market is quite mental since COVID. But it's cyclical. What goes up will eventually come down. It's still the lucky country. I wouldn't want to be anywhere else.

    • +3

      It’s not very cyclical at all. House prices will continue to rise albeit with a few minor dips. Supply is relatively fixed but demand from mass migration is increasing.

      • -1

        It's very much cyclical in the medium term. Yeah overall they will probably keep increasing increase in the long term, but there will be big up's and down's in the medium term and we are currently on a big up, there eventually will be a big down eventually. Prices were very high in the early 2010's, then they plummeted to a minimum in 2018-2020, then skyrocketed during/after covid. They will be some adjustments and come down. Also, one thing is Hong Kong or SIngapore. One thing is Australia. If there's something that Australia does not lack is space.

        I am starting to think we actually need a recession to stop inflation, bring construction costs down, and reduce our need of overseas workers. Costs and prices (not only real estate) can't keep going up, it's not sustainable.

  • +6

    I think you should encourage your friends to leave… expecially the one that wants to go to Russia… if that happens please let us know how it goes…

    • This made me chuckle …

      In seriousness, I agree for adults but it's always concerning when people trot off to emigrate to Russia with their kids in tow.

  • +1

    Questions like this are the most pointless things to discuss/debate.

    Literally everything about it is subjective.

    Decide what things are is most important to you and go from there.

    • Questions like this are the most pointless things to discuss/debate.

      It is not pointless. Someone is wrong on the internet and we must change their minds.

      • Lol

  • This is what happens when a country relies on lazy ways to generate wealth (e.g. non productive property and dare I say it NDIS).

    • we can probably afford basic universal income for all australians with the amount of money NDIS has pissed down the drain

      • +4

        and also no accountability for politicians who have stuffed up, and yet we elect them!

        • It's not like we have a lot of great choices tbh, let's see how it goes next time…

    • +3

      when a country relies on lazy ways to generate wealth

      You mean like mining?

      • +3

        That too, when you just dig and ship rather than refine and value add.

  • +3

    you can always relocate to Malaysia and home school the kids, luxury and modern world class amenities on the cheap as well as world class safety, English is the second official language and everyone speaks it, Kuala lumper specially is like a cheaper version of Singapore. out of all south asia malaysia is the most developed and most advanced. its dubai if it wasn't in the middle of a dessert with shit weather, minus the tax benefits

    • True, Malaysia is lovely and the people are too. I'd be tempted if I wasn't happy here.

    • Good point, if I was going to move to SE Asia it would be there. Basically pretty developed and stable, but a dollar goes 2.5 times as far as over here.

      Then again, who wants to home school the kids? But yes, international schools are very expensive.

      • +1

        there is alot of international schools that i didnt mention, also the dollar is x3

      • you can take comfort in the fact that your kids wont be taught about how they can choose their genders or have LGBTQ stories read to them

        • Whilst I'm all for promoting acceptance of diversity and the idea that humans are equals including LGBTIQ, I agree I don't like the curriculum as it is which goes beyond promoting acceptance.

          You can also send your kid to a Catholic school, that is our plan.

  • Australia's still pretty good, it's just our economy has become wealthier and more advanced. As economy's get more advanced you need better skills to keep up. In developing economies you can do things like work in factories, retail or as a labourer and have an ok life. Australia has moved past that, you can't work an unskilled or low demand job and expect to keep up anymore.

    • Mass immigration has more impact

  • +2

    So much Australia bashing here

    • Great, hope they leave the country so we can all just chill. Love it here.

  • -7

    I'm in the top 1% by wealth in Australian standards and top 2-3% by income.
    Born poor but had immigrant parents who worked all the time (apple doesn't fall far from the tree).
    I've obtained visas in Asia and plan to leave Australia in the next 1-2 years.
    Right now I'm stressed out of my mind in Australia, working multiple jobs and sleeping very little.
    I've been paying about $250k a year in income taxes and capital gains taxes.
    I'm asset rich but still drowning in debt.
    Worked very hard to build some new homes, increase housing density, and create housing supply.
    Using close to 100% of my income to keep up with the mortgage repayments for many years.
    There is no thank you from the government for increasing housing supply.
    Instead politicians call you names. Dirty greedy negative gearer (I'm not negatively geared). CGT concession abuser. Exploiter of the system and people.
    I had planned to build more but I can't afford the money, the stress, and risk a country that seems to actively want to tear people who are suceeding down.
    The wildly unpopular truth is that rents and house prices need to rise sharply before we will see any meaningful increase in housing supply. Right now the numbers do not make sense.
    I don't know why people call it a housing crisis - what is coming will be so much worse.
    I don't mind what the next government does as I won't be living here, but good luck to those who stay.

    • +6

      So through your own hard work you've gotten to be in the top 1% yet you expect the government to give you a cherry on top too? It's one thing to bludge and leach off the system then whinge that you didn't get a fair go, I think it's a bit out of touch to complain the government isn't giving you a fair go when you're literally earning more than 99.9% of people in the nation. You being over leveraged is entirely your own doing for failing to plan ahead.

    • +4

      working multiple jobs and sleeping very little.
      -1
      And who's fault is that?
      Why are you blaming everyone for your own choices?
      Who held a gun to your head to make you do all that?

    • +9

      If you're making $550,000 a year after tax and struggling to pay off mortgages… Either you have a terrible gambling habit or the simple answer is to sell some properties. If you really are working hard then on that wage you could retire in under 5 years. Seems pretty good.

      Your post generally makes little to no sense though, and I'm fairly certain a lot of the numbers and info is made up.

  • +2

    Australia is a vast beautiful country that is way more than just "inner Sydney" explore and find some life, more so than the dribble from the haters (of this great land) that think the grass is greener lol

    • +2

      Australia is vast yes, but it is all the same. Spend a week driving or 9hrs flying from the east to west coast - you'll still walk into the same Westfield, same IGA, same food, same language, same people. Most of the landscape is idential - dry. Yes there are some nice mountain ranges, gorges, canyons, pinnacles, but they're very far apart and sometimes even inaccessible without a 4WD or combination of fling and 4WD'ing. Depends what you're into I guess.

      • +1

        completely agree, although the older I get and the more I travel the more I come to appreciate the boring quiet life back home.

    • True, so many great desert uninhabitable places with zero access to any kind of services. Sounds like a dream.

  • +1

    The US does have lower housing costs on the whole, but is not a better country in my view.

    1. Political polarisation, extensive deceit and lack of truth in politics/media. It is a deeply flawed democracy that is increasingly failing.

    2. Whilst you don't need to pay as much for housing you pay a fortune for things like unsubsidised or minimally subsidised healthcare, childcare, aged care and college.

    3. Gun crime and risk of being murdered is absurdly high, with a lifetime risk of being a homicide victim around 1 in 200 and a drastically higher risk that someone from your family, friends or extended family will be a victim.

    There are good things about it too, but not good enough to make me want to live there.

    Median full time salary is similar.

    • 1/200 homicide risk is incorrect

      • It is ball park correct.

        According to the below university, the annual chance of dying from homicide is 5.54 per 100,000 people per year. So over 80 years - roughly the average life expectancy, let's multiply that by 80, which comes to 443 in 100,000 or about 0.44%

        It's uncomfortable enough of a statistic for an individual, though considering the amount of family members and connections the average person has its even more uncomfortable.

        https://crim.sas.upenn.edu/fact-check/what-are-chances-becom…

  • +3

    On any basis OZ is one of the best places to live, but there's other amazing places too. I personally dont think that Texas or Russia are up there, but they might be just your cup of tea. I assume that if you head to the land of Vlad the Invader, you'll sign up for duty…..

    This earth is a good, large place. If youre not happy in this part no reason not to try another. At least you wont be one of the many that stay here and just whinge all the time.
    You find happiness inside you, not where you live.
    All the best. 👍

    • +6

      You'd need your head examined if you immigrate to Russia. Putin is speedrunning his country into generational poverty.

      As for Texas, tornados, school shootings, police brutality, dodgy power system and super-sized everything? Yeah nah.

      • +1

        Yes, recently back from a world trip. Lots of amazing places but taking account of climate, economics, politics etc OZ or NZ for me.
        To even consider living in Russia needs a very different set of values to me, but if everybody was just like me it would be a very creepy world.
        There are beautiful, happy people everywhere though, so I guess OP may just need to live somewhere else to find their own contentment.

  • +6

    Australia has its issues, unaffordable rents and unsustainable immigration* are the primary causes, but there is no else where I'd rather be.

    *I'm not anti-immigration, per se. Rather in favour of bringing in a smaller number of people, spreading them out, as to not Balkanise the country, and being far stricter as to the calibre of people we bring, and also bring more families\single women then single men.

    • -1

      agreed.. although.. why single women > single men..?

      • +8

        Greater number of unmarried = greater societal issues. Look at modern Germany as a prime example.

        Add a group of very religiously conservative and sexually repressed men, to a liberal democracy or a place where women are allowed to dress and speak how they want, and you inevitably have a recipe for disaster.

  • We need to show Harris the border!

  • I’m hearing a lot about USA political polarisation.

    I would suggest however that most USA people do not follow politics. They are too busy with their lives and as voting isn’t compulsory the compulsion to get interested is low or non existent.

    • +1

      66% of the voting population voted in 2020.

      That's arguably higher than what we would get if voting wasn't compulsory.

  • Bro actually thinks Australia is not one of the best places to live 💀

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