Is It Time to Give up on Australia?

Would be interested to hear people's thoughts on this.

Was at an impromptu gathering of friends - a woman announced that she was moving to Texas. I was quite surprised because both of them had good incomes, kids, and were obviously having to leave a lot behind. It turns out that the husband was born in the US and was a citizen even though both of them had spent their lives there. They weren't struggling, necessarily, but they did have a large mortgage. They were worried what might happen if either of them lost their job. They would rather sell than spend their lives paying off debt. Fair enough.

Someone mentioned the health system in the US. They shrugged and said you could buy top notch health cover and still be ahead compared to Australia, when you factored in how everything else here was so much more expensive. They were already looking at buying a specific house in Austin. It looked very nice. It was 400K AUD. Everyone oohed and aahed at the picture on the phone screen and the price tag like it was a fairytale storybook.

We've seen plenty of migrant friends pack up and move back home (basically like this: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-06-08/why-these-immigrants-… ) - but this was the first "Aussie" couple in our peer group to decide to leave.

What was interesting was that it became apparent that just about everyone else in our peer group was thinking the same thing. Someone else said: "I have a UK passport, but its no better over there, its quite a bit worse". "My wife still has her Japanese passport, we've looked at it, houses are dirt cheap but I don't know what I would do for work." Another person even admitted that he was seriously thinking about the "spiritual values visa" being advertised by the Russian government.

There is a palpable sense of decline in Australia. I went to the Philippines recently for a couple of months with the children. I stayed in a cheap condo close to the downtown area and caught the ferry every day that left from the wet market. These were desperately poor people by Australian standards, but the children wore clean clothes and were playing with marbles and pogs between the baskets of fish, and the people were unfailingly polite and solicitous. I did not feel unsafe the entire time I was there, and my only complaint was that people were excessively polite and kept referring to me as "sir" even if I was just out walking casually in flip flops. Within two minutes of getting back to Australia, I had to usher my kids to another carriage because someone was having a mental health episode on the train. Im not blaming him, I don't think its a matter of assigning moral blame to any one person. We made a choice to have the kind of society we have.

Would be interested in whether others feel the same way.

Comments

  • +8

    usa is a sh*t hole. People that want Australia to be more like usa are welcome to leave and move back to us…

    It’s sad when geopolitically usa already influences even controls every aspect of Australian government and various departments. Last thing we need is people starting to propagate the idea Aus is lost cause when it’s usa that is the declining super power threatened by China and is absolutely hypocritical in every aspect of its society, values and international dealings.

    Keep Australia Australia.

  • +4

    The sad state of the building industry thanks to spoilt, overpriced cowboys and the impotent regulators (like the VBA) have a lot to do with these frustrations around housing. Nobody wants to build new > low supply > inflated pricing…

  • +3

    Well, I have not been lucky like some of you, to have lived in the US to compare but I surely love Australia and people here.

    Why isn’t anyone comparing life here with UK?

    • +6

      Because the UK is a dump

      • +4

        And US isn't?

        • +1

          the USA is indeed a dump, more so than the UK

      • +2

        Personally, I would much rather live in the UK than the US. Sure the weather sucks but there are heaps of cheap travel options.

  • +7

    Example of why older people get grumpy (I'm older, but not super old now):

    I used to watch 'Undercover Boss' as a kid, and thought it was really cool how the bosses went out of their way to reward the 'good' workers.
    This is propaganda working. You should think about whether you're drinking any kool-aid as well.

    Now re-watching as an adult (with better emotional AI: i.e. BS meter / objectivity / empathy) on youtube, I was shocked how these 'good' workers were exploited for months/years & they were merely 'lucky' that their bosses made the show. Imagine the other 99.999% of lower class workers still getting exploited. They have an economy of sweatshops in the US! No wonder the rich have it so good over there!

    Some of the rewards on the show too were $%#! however (although I admit some were good though): E.g. a stupidly cheap holiday & 2 weeks off work for what was effectively 6+ months of underpayment.
    There was a common theme to some of the sob-stories: Workers or relatives were bankrupt cos some family member had cancer & they had to take out a loan for the medical bills (usually over $100K USD) . Some of the best bosses paid off the medical bills tho (phew), but some of the odd ones didn't.
    I remember someone being made 50% partner of the cookie store, but he worked his arse off for 5 years 'running-the-entire-store' & showed the franchise owner why his store was profitable when 1/3 of the franchisers stores were losing money. This was all whilst making something like $5/hour whilst raising kids? $#@! that, without the show he would've still been slaving away.

    A lot will watch this show thinking how great it is the CEOs are policing their own staff & rewarding 'hard' workers… (propaganda working).

    Aussie adults (I hope) will watch this show and realise how 'effed' up the lower class is in the US and how thankful I am for our minimum wage & unions (corruption-aside).

    I am glad that for my child & grandchildren that it's much harder to end up on the streets here in AU. They may not be able to afford a property in a capital city or buy luxury goods, but if they keep their ego in check & be creative they can live a comfortable life here (do not confuse luxury with comfortable).

    • Perfect sum up of the land of mediocrity.

      • -1

        Speaking as a person of such a land, do you consider yourself to be mediocre?

        • -1

          people say it as a derogative. I don't have a problem with mediocrity, we can't all be brilliant. openness integrity and morals are much more important qualities

          • -1

            @May4th: Except this dude has said it several times in this thread, he has mediocrity on the brain. I'm wondering where it comes from [maybe he had his performance review on Friday? Word of the day on his calendar? Inquiring minds want to know]

        • -1

          It is a most fascinating question.

  • +2

    I am no longer really in a position to be able to relocate to another country as we need to be near family for health reasons but the last 18 months I have been finding Australia a completely uninspiring place to live and work. It is a good country but we are so small and insignificant IMO, all the good jobs and companies etc are overseas. 4 of the top 6 companies by market cap in Australia are banks, one is a mining company and the other is CSL and im not even sure what category to call that, Biotech? I dunno, sometimes think my kid would be better growing up in another country that may be able to provide more opportunities than what we have here.

  • -5

    Australia is a dump. I hate this country. I just came here for the money, but that doesn’t even exist now. This country has no culture, is way too arrogant, and the food here is expensive and tasteless. Living in this country is an absolute waste of a life. Aussies have glass hearts and get offended too easily (I got blocked on Facebook for saying their beaches are not nice). They have no sense of community (look what happened during COVID). The country is extremely underdeveloped for the population size. Domestic travel is too expensive.

    Aussies are obsessed with the foot fetish sporting thingy, and that’s all they talk about.

    My advice: just leave. Get out. Make your money and go. Don’t waste your life here. The education system is far behind Europe. I question if the kids here even go to school. All the skilled immigrants are taking the jobs, which I can’t blame them for. This country is on its ass; it always has been, but now people are realizing it more than ever. It was a tool to make money, but not anymore.

    I left and am never coming back. The grass is greener.

    • +2

      Please share where you've moved to in case any of us feel compelled to share insightful comments on your choice. Why are you lurking on OzBargain?

      • i had the same question looking at a number of posters that reports to have 'left australia and never coming back'

      • Still my home page when i open up chrome actually i haven't changed it over and this post caught my eye. I moved to Edinburgh, i understand not everyone happy place but its the right place for me.

        • This might just be from the perspective of a tourist, but when I was visiting Scotland they seemed even more into Rugby and sports than Australians are. Frankly it seemed like the worst parts of Australian culture, but definitely far richer in culture and history

        • +1

          Edinburgh is a nice city and probably a great place to live. So is of Australia (most of it anyway, apart from Sydney and Melbourne).

        • +1

          I'll be interested to know how you assimilate in due course. Edinburgh came 58th in EIU's Global Liveabiliy Index 2023. In 2024 the top ten are: Vienna, Copenhagn, Zurich, Melbourne, Calgary, Geneva, Sydney, Vancouver, Osaka, Auckland

        • What are the top 5 things that Edinburgh has that you think is better than Australia?

    • Edinburgh is nice but way overpriced right now. Everyone moved there in the last few years and its way to crowded and expensive. Almost on par with London…

      • People must be moving back to London

        Edinburgh really doesn't have any industry at least London has finance (or what is left of it)

    • +3

      I got blocked on Facebook for saying their beaches are not nice

      To be fair, you sound like a nutter making that claim, Australia is well know for having nice beaches. Does Edinburgh really have nicer beaches?

      I left and am never coming back. The grass is greener.

      And yet here you are on a Australian site posting using an account only just recently opened…..

    • -1

      Yep.

  • +1

    OP

    If you can work remotely, I would look at Penang, Malaysia.

    • I've been thinking about this, no intention of emigrating but a working holiday for a few months. How is it to find short term rental / how has your experience been with VISA/healthcare etc?

    • Have you been watching Mitch's on the horizon on YT? Somehow came up on my recommended feed and was pretty interesting. Not in my plans to live in an apartment though, have done it before and it drove all of us crazy.

      • @roundnumbersonly

        youtube has been pushing his videos to me as well, watched a few of them, had me interested until he starts talking about how he fund his lifestyle with his "online digital marketing" business, and DM him if you want to be part of the action……….

        maybe I am just too cynical/paranoid…….

  • +1

    Another news article about people leaving and not returning to Australia:

    https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/more-people-are-leaving-…

    • +5

      Yet if you read other articles everyone from the UK and NZ are coming to Australia, so I guess it depends which article you choose

      • +1

        And Ireland and France.

    • +1

      It's selection bias. There is a long line of Aussies going to the US to work every single day. It's only a few who return. There is no long line of Americans wanting to immigrate to Australia is there.

      • If you're eligible to enter the US on an E-3 Visa that has a welcoming vibe. The Wikipedia entry says: one reason the U.S. diaspora is unusually small relative to its home population is that it is generally much more difficult for Americans to emigrate to a foreign country than, for example, citizens of countries in the Schengen Zone; similar to most other large countries, Americans looking for economic opportunity are generally limited to transmigration within the U.S.

  • After covid, Australia doesn’t feel as welcoming, it’s becoming more white privileged, due to racism and the sheep being influenced by the trump era
    Just look at the diversity of famous Australians as an example😂

    • +4

      Not racism rather just that people are waking up to the reality of Australia's virtual open border migration policies.

      Trump is probably going to win the election next month too.

      • -1

        Waking up to immigration has happened for decades, aussies looking to blame anyone but themselves

        • +1

          I think what's happened since the covid overreaction, and Labor's subsequent turbocharged migration policy has brought it back into focus. But yes, you're right to a degree - we elected governments that have implemented these policies. We do need to look at ourselves in this regard.

        • +2

          Waking up to immigration has happened for decades, aussies looking to blame anyone but themselves

          At least with immigration decades ago, the people tried to blend in with the local cultures.

          Immigration today isn't about blending in.

          • +2

            @JimmyF: This.

            No matter what the government, business elites, media tells us, we are not a multicultural country.

          • +1

            @JimmyF: Previous immigrants brought their culture with them and kept practicing it. That's why we have Greek/Italian style cafes and takeaway Thai food so commonplace, for instance.

            If they had blended in none of these things would exist, and Australia would be all the poorer for it.

  • +6

    I moved to the UK 2.5 years ago. (I’m browsing OzB for Christmas presents for the family).

    I am undecided if I will stay here or go to another European country or the US. I work in tech and for me Australia just isn’t the place to be for that.

    I’m under 30, single, don’t want kids. I’ll visit Oz every year but I don’t see it as my permanent home.

    Australia has changed since covid. People are no where near as friendly as they used to be. Everyone is obsessed about WFH and not interacting with their colleagues at work other than the minimum amount. My main reason for not wanting to move back is also how the hell do I find friends when a lot of mine are buying houses, having kids etc.

    I was back visiting this year. My friend was smoking outside at a bar we were at, but lost their lighter so I asked someone to borrow theirs. The person acted if I had asked for a kidney, firstly by talking to a stranger and secondly by the request.

    Same with driving. People actually speeding up to avoid letting someone in?

    Not saying the UK is perfect. The economy is pretty bad in fact but going around saying Australia is better isn’t 100% true.

    • +3

      I mean London does have some good job opportunities but you couldn't pay me whatever to live in the UK. Crime is so bad wherever you go and the whole country just seems on such a big downward spiral. It's truly the last place in the western world Id move to. Id move to Romania before moving to the UK.

      • Crime is so bad

        Lived there from 2010 to 2018 and never been a victim of crime and Iived in unfashionable poor east end near Stratford.

        Worked on Canary Wharf and partied on weekends in central London (Kensington High St, SOHO) or off to Europe. Few weeknights in Stratford swimming at the Olympic pool and didn't get stabbed at Westfield.

    • My main reason for not wanting to move back is also how the hell do I find friends when a lot of mine are buying houses, having kids etc.

      That is going to apply in whatever city you live in. Once people hit a certain age, they marry up, pop out babies and buy houses.

      My friend was smoking outside at a bar we were at, but lost their lighter so I asked someone to borrow theirs. The person acted if I had asked for a kidney, firstly by talking to a stranger and secondly by the request.

      Think its more the request around expecting them to be a smoker in Austrlia than anything else! The smoking rates in Australia are crazy low compared to the rest of the world.

      If you asked me for a lighter, I would give you the same look. 99% of the people I know don't smoke!

      Australia has changed since covid. People are no where near as friendly as they used to be

      I agree with this, but I also feel this is everywhere as well. COVID has made people more self entitled and self centred. Its all about them and no one else matters.

      • Think its more the request around expecting them to be a smoker in Austrlia than anything else! The smoking rates in Australia are crazy low compared to the rest of the world.

        Sorry should have been a bit more clear this was outside in the smoking area asking someone with an already lit ciggie in their hand. I didn’t just ask a random lol

    • People actually speeding up to avoid letting someone in?

      That is called skilled driving. Driving fast is a skill in this country LOL

      I’m under 30, single, don’t want kids. I’ll visit Oz every year but I don’t see it as my permanent home.

      I spent my 30s in London and it was like before Brexit it was the best time. I did miss out on the crazy pay before the GFC. Apparently you could walk off the plan and get GBP1k a day and it was GBP1 : 2 AUD.

  • +3

    Is It Time to Give up on Australia?

    Maybe, but the USA isn't the place to be going!!

    • Those considering the US just need to make sure they do their homework. I've travelled there extensively for work and leisure and through my last job enjoyed extensive liaison with counterparts in the US. The key things I can't see improving in my lifetime are: 1. infatuation with their constitution and laws which are carved in stone, so because there's laws about guns & abortion access these things wil NEVER change; 2. lack of wage protection which means the income gap is absolutely enormous; 3. racial conflict between whites and non-whites, which you'd think they could get over by now but I see no sign of it. A retail assistant in Macys once asked what we did for a living to be able to afford to vacation in the US; an indelible conversation.

      • +1

        Those considering the US just need to make sure they do their homework

        and those that do, soon work out the USA isn't the place to be when it is time to retire without healthcare as well as all the things you have listed.

        I don't understand why people look up to the USA or even remotely want to be like them, its a country about keeping the rich, rich and the poor, poor. The entire health system, tipping system etc. Its crazy. Lets not even start on the gun thing or the car thing or the oh well some kids die at school, but that's ok, we have guns to protect us.

        A retail assistant in Macys once asked what we did for a living to be able to afford to vacation in the US; an indelible conversation.

        Yeah people are surprised when you go on a multi week holiday, they are so used to doing a 3 day trip and rushing back to work again.

        • +2

          Thats completely false. If you interact with a Woolworths worker in Australia they won't be able to go on any holidays either. I am a dual citizen after having lived in the USA for 10 years and I work in tech and I can tell you everyone I met went on multiple trips a year. Be that in my profession or in health or in corporate. They go to Europe, Asia, South America. 401k is as good or better as Super and healthcare is far superior to Medicare. You have to have a decent job like anywhere not just as a retail assistant but if you do I think the United States offers the best quality of life anywhere in the world. Australia used to be good now its gone to shit over the last 10 years.

          • +1

            @mustang87401:

            Thats completely false.

            Cool, point me to the bit that I said a retailer worker can go on a overseas holiday? But I do know many that do!

            I think the United States offers the best quality of life anywhere in the world. Australia used to be good now its gone to shit over the last 10 years.

            Not sure which country you are living in, but the USA seems to be the place for you. So if you're not there, time to head back! If you are, stay!

            But I don't disagree Australia has gone down hill in the last 10 years though. The USA also has gone down hill as well. Last time I was in LA it was a weed smoke filled city that needed to be flooded.

          • +1

            @mustang87401: Completely false is a bit strong. Average retail salary: Australia A$60-70K, USA US$37K. You're upper middle class in the US so benefit from all the privileges that affords.

  • -1

    If all Australia moved to a different country, we would all go to the pub and bitch about the way things are and do nothing as the government walks all over us once again.

  • +5

    Spent a significant chunk of my life in the US, Australia and Asia and absolutely agree that living in Australia is the beginner difficulty.

    I'd like to think of it this way, in Australia you don't have to put in a lot of effort to achieve a good quality of life, but at the same time the ceiling could also be lower than others.
    Let's say in Australia, you need to put in 10% effort to get 30/100 quality of life, but elsewhere you can put in 40% effort to get 80/100 QoL. Sure you'll get a higher return in other places but the extra effort may not be worth it if you value more personal freedom and work life balance.

    I'm currently living in Japan only because I'm at a point where I can only put in 10% effort while still enjoy a better life than Australia.

    • +2

      I am living in Asia with Australian wages. The social lifestyle is infinitely better in Asia for me.
      Life's too short to listen to other people. Go do your own thing.

  • +2

    Let's all OzBargainers meet and start our own country.

  • +4

    I've had colleagues who dreamed of moving to Sydney because that's where the real opportunities are. I'm sure there are many people in Sydney who want to move away and see somewhere like New York, Tokyo, or London as the place of real opportunities.

    Where do people living in those 'dream places' dream of moving to, seeing as they're already living in what many consider to be the pinnacle city?

    The grass is always greener on the other side.

    • I have cousins who were born in LA, moved to NYC. They're not looking to move anywhere else. Been there for 20+ years and I've visited a few times. Probably not the best place to be raising young kids, unless you're in the top 0.5%. Similarly, had a colleague who recently relocated to London with her kids in primary school. They're enjoying it so far - but once again, both parents are white collar, circa $500K income + company benefits.

    • Depends where in society you stand. Australia is a massive lifestyle upgrade for 95% of the world.

  • +1

    Cost of homes and being in debt are definitely challenges in Australia, but there are way more safety nets when things go bad in our country that arent directly corelated to how much money you earn. Such as:

    Medicare - enough said
    Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme (PBS) - most medications are very affordable and the discounts are provided to all regardless of income
    Paid Parental Leave Scheme
    National Disability Insurance Scheme (NDIS) - absolutely revolutionary change to funding and care for a huge amount of people with disabilities
    Superannuation Guarantee - People who've worked all their lives aren't going to be in poverty in retirement and your employer has to pay into the scheme. Brilliant.
    Child Care Subsidy - This has made childcare really affordable for low and middle incomes (of course, if you can find a place)
    HECS/HELP (although not a perfect system, better than having to pay back your huge student loans in America, with interest, soon after graduation regardless of whether you're employed)

    While the USA does have some attractive things about it, IMO, I think you can really only make a serious go of the USA if you're a white collar professional who has good health care from their employer, plus has plenty of cash in the bank to protect you when things go bad.

    Not to mention the other minor issues:
    School shootings,
    rampant homelessness and poverty in many major cities,
    a former president and future presidential nominee who has openly said he wants to use violence against political enemies,
    virtually no decent public transport outside of New York,
    every city and town looks pretty much identical,
    having to drive everywhere

    • +2

      "every city and town looks pretty much identical, "
      This is even more true in Australia.

  • Didn't you consider moving to the Philippines adter visiting?

  • -1

    USA is great, if you're white, rich and and an idiot.

    Australia is wonderful. Safe, beautiful, great education. We just need to work together and aligned on the cost of living (which, housing costs aside, is far worse in the USA).

  • +2

    Australia's challenge as the land of mediocrity is that the easy days are gone and we are ill prepared to actually have to work hard and try.

    A nation of bedwetters and quitters.

    No innovation, no gusto and worst of all tall poppy syndrome reigns supreme.

    The land of mediocrity. You get by in the good times, "no worries", in the bad times - God help us.

  • -1
  • +1

    Elections in Australia are the most obscure I have ever seen, and I’m originally from Russia. Yes I get it maybe they better counted, but it’s really hard to make a choice. You come to voting and there’s absolutely no information of what any candidate wants to do or who they are. It’s also very hard to find that info online, I tried. Just a face and vote me. Here’s democracy for you.

  • +2

    I migrated to East Coast US when I was a teen. I left US and moved to Australia when I was in 20s and met my partner here. Life in US isn't as rosy as you think it is. There are few inherent issues with it:

    1. I grew up in poverty in US and I have witnessed many of my father's friends passed away due to being afraid to go to hospital or get health check. They afraid they would lose all their assets and leave their family with nothing (medical bills in US are ridiculous)
    2. Gun control - During my teenage year, I was at a gun point during one of my hang out. Good thing, I'm still alive and that person was just having a "fun" scare at me. Through my life in US, few of my friends were shot, stabbed, and murdered. I wouldn't say that's something that people want to happen to their close ones.
    3. Racism - The further south you go, the further racism go.
    4. A living wage - I used to work as a teenager for pizza delivery - my salary was $5 an hour in cash and I had to run like a mad man to earn a decent wage due to tips. Now I looked at it, why do I need go so fast and risking my life just to earn a livable wage.
    5. Taxes - Buying a house is one thing, but the annual house taxes, council rates, and other bills will eat your income fast. Albeit, Texas doesn't have income tax but it takes it from other sources. That's only state taxes, there are federal taxes too. After that, you sell a property you are still taxed.
    6. Health Insurance - It is a must in US. If you don't have it, you are at the mercy of being in debt or never get out of that debt cycle.

    I think your friend just don't like to pay taxes in Australia and hating on Australia's welfare. After growing up from poverty in US, I actually appreciate the taxes that I paid. It went to empower poor family to move up in class rank. I don't mind your friend leaving though. We enjoy our medicare here. I also appreciate that I don't need to calculate how much my eating out will cost after I have to calculate tips, taxes, and random surcharges.

    That's just my annecdote. Your friend seems to be wealthier people so they don't care about all those.

    • Depends where in society you stand for both. Australia is more egalitarian so if you're ahead you'll get pulled back. It's great if you're coming from a third world sovereignty though.

  • https://www.apa.org/pubs/reports/stress-in-america/2024

    Around 2 in 5 adults reported the state of the nation has made them consider moving to a different country (41%)

    Even Americans want to move to another country.
    Maybe we can do a swap.

  • -1

    Sometimes you're just having a midlife crisis then you try to justify it with these seemingly "valid points". Carefully consider your next move especially if you have a family. There's no perfect country but Australia sure does offer more than most.
    Also, healthcare is a massive consideration and it's not just the cost of it. You can't just move to the Philippines and not take that into consideration. You'd be lucky to get to hospital via ambulance in time. There's hospital acquired infections, etc. I always tell friends, Philippines generally have Filipino/Chinese doctors. In Australia, we can have the best from various backgrounds and the funding from the government and each hospital organisations. We have the technology and the developing research.

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