COVID-19 Tracking App Mega Discussion Thread

[Deactivated] on 15/04/2020 - 01:37
Last edited 27/04/2020 - 10:57 by 2 other users

Mega Thread for COVID-19 App discussions (Description Updated 27/4/20)

Please use this thread for any discussions about COVID-19 app discussions, rather than making a new thread. Also see below for other specific/related threads.

Poll Options

148
Yes.Why?
251
No. Why?
2
Other

Mobile COVID-19

Comments

- - - - try2bhelpful on 28/04/2020 - 18:32
        
        +2
        
        @burningrage: What Dan is doing is letting the rest of Australia test out whether loosening the restrictions causes an uptick in cases. He is also doing a testing blitz.If it all looks OK then he will start to loosen us off as well, I suspect at the next review in 3 weeks time. A bit of hard data might give the parents something to feel comfortable about. I think you will find the recession will be Australia wide; places depending on Tourism will be hardest hit. Personally, I’ve had no problems with going out to exercise, buying my croissant and hot chocolate for breakfast and getting my takeaway if I want it. Bunnings is open, IKEA is open, the schools are open for kids that really need it, public transport is running. Funny how the fishing mob shut up when the two guys went missing from their boat and the emergency services people spent some time trying to find them. Not sure what you are doing that is getting you fined but most of us having managed to avoid having parties, etc and are just getting on with it.
      - serrin on 30/04/2020 - 08:25
        
        @burningrage:
        
        have zero cases for weeks
        
        https://www.covid19data.com.au/states-and-territories
        
        I think you mean Victoria has had new cases detected all week and last week.
        
        [Deactivated] on 30/04/2020 - 11:26
        
        @serrin: No, it was a hypothetical that zero cases for weeks, high usage of the app, would still not change the Stage 3 restriction Victorian decree. Basically, app usage or low infections will not be changing Dan Andrew's plans.
        
        serrin on 30/04/2020 - 16:07
        
        @[Deactivated]: Whoops, I see. That makes more sense.
[Deactivated] on 27/04/2020 - 17:29

Big no. I'm also the person most of my friends turn to for tech advice and things like this, have also advised them not to download it.
- SBOB on 27/04/2020 - 18:37
  
  +2
  
  Your friends likely need someone with better tech knowledge
  - [Deactivated] on 27/04/2020 - 18:46
    
    why?
    - SBOB on 27/04/2020 - 20:20
      
      +1
      
      Because there is no 'technical' reason not to, based on the supplied info and code that has been decompiled and reviewed by people in the know.
      
      If they were asking due to moral, trust, conspiracy, nationals party member or whatever other reason sure..but there's no technical reason :)
      - [Deactivated] on 27/04/2020 - 23:06
        
        @SBOB: What do you believe might compromise security and be too sensitive to be included in the open sourcing?
      - [Deactivated] on 27/04/2020 - 23:32
        
        @SBOB: Well the technical reason is that the source code hasn’t been released, so who knows whether it’s technically secure. The govt hasn’t exactly got the runs on the board for being truthful, honest & trustworthy.
        
        who are these “people in the know”? The info I’ve seen have found some interesting issues such as transmitting some data in plaintext, the dev & UAT servers are listed in the code & the later appeared to be publicly accessible. The IOS version appears to be fairly useless as it doesn’t appear to work in the background.
        
        Personally I think it’s sound advice to at least wait. It’s not going make a difference yet, as community-based spread is almost non-existent in Oz.
        
        I’d prefer to wait for the Google-Apple apps, as they know how to write apps, keep data secure and track people better then the govt.
[Deactivated] on 27/04/2020 - 17:36

-3

I won't be downloading it because I value my privacy. But I'm also not discouraging others from doing so because I understand why we need this app.Is that hypocritical of me?
Hangryuman on 27/04/2020 - 17:37

+2

just downloaded it after reading you didn't have to use your correct name

so I registered as my alter ego 'Far Queue'
- [Deactivated] on 27/04/2020 - 17:38
  
  How many alter egoes do you have, Hangryuman?
- cwongtech on 27/04/2020 - 19:15
  
  Your phone number has a person registered under it.
  Hope it's under Far Queue as well :)
- ssquid on 28/04/2020 - 15:05
  
  Allow me to introduce myself: Mike Oxlong.
popsiee on 27/04/2020 - 18:29

+2

I think there is enough questions about privacy as to why the government is hiding the source code !
Singapore didn't with there similar app .
bajirao on 27/04/2020 - 18:31

Does the app register any near-by contact with no time limit or is there a minimum 15 minutes required for contact registration (swapping id codes with other phones)?
- skid on 27/04/2020 - 20:35
  
  Interesting question. I looked it up and the app scans for nearby bluetooth devices every 15 minutes. So as long as you are near someone with the app when that scan occurs, the id swap will occur.
  - ssquid on 28/04/2020 - 15:02
    
    Are you sure it doesn't check if a nearby device shows up in two consecutive scans (i.e. close for at least 15 minutes) before recording it?
    - skid on 28/04/2020 - 16:05
      
      Didn't spot anything like that. It does record how long the connection lasts for so maybe further processing of the log occurs at a later stage.
      - bajirao on 29/04/2020 - 00:35
        
        @skid: This is what I read in reviews and news sites-
        "The app is designed to keep a list of other users you’ve been within 1.5m of for more than 15 minutes"
        My interpretation is that if you are near someone for less than 15 minutes then the app will not include in the list. Kind of defies the purpose. Unless someone is at work or public transport or relative, hard to be near the same person for more than 15 minutes.
Gdsamp on 27/04/2020 - 19:20

+1

Singapore: first, the leading light in coronavirus curve flattening. Now, they come out with the app and are facing a 2nd wave.
Australia: Now also leading the charge in curve flattening, with WA relaxing restrictions. And now we have the same app.
I am hunkering down at home bracing for a 2nd wave here (hopefully I'm wrong)
SBOB on 27/04/2020 - 20:36

+3

"Nationals backbencher Barnaby Joyce said he won't download the app until he receives a briefing. One Nation leader Pauline Hanson is also against the idea"

I believe this is amazing strategy for increasing the up take of the app…because who wants to be on the same side of a technical discussion as those two :/

Government pulling the reverse psychology move….
- [Deactivated] on 27/04/2020 - 20:48
  
  +1
  
  Yep. I'm starting to waver…
- [Deactivated] on 27/04/2020 - 23:11
  
  I'd probably take them over your esteemed team captain, Rebecca Judd. :p Shouldn't you guys be shifting over to mumsnet?
Sleeken on 27/04/2020 - 20:55

+3

Hard pass for me. I would love things to return to normal but just do not trust the government with data security based and think this sets a dangerous precedent (even if the current implementation is relatively safe privacy wise). Whilst I also avoid other apps that track location/info such as Facebook and the like, I'd still have greater faith in some private companies over the government.

It's disappointing to see some of the posts here against the app met with personal attacks and broad generalisations rather than a proper discussion.
- [Deactivated] on 27/04/2020 - 23:40
  
  +1
  
  Yes it’s gotten a bit of a religious fevor about it. The need to denounce & persecute the non believers & non-followers.
  - Pratty on 28/04/2020 - 15:10
    
    That's it. The Morrison troupe - let's all pray that ScoMoses will get us through this! Shun the non believers!
Jared17 on 28/04/2020 - 03:14

+3

Morrison still talking to Trump after his debacle of a response agaisnt covid. I'm not trusting the aus govt just as I dun trust the US gov.
- BuyoTheCat on 28/04/2020 - 10:08
  
  +1
  
  and SMo also diss WHO right after Tronald did. They probably did some horsetrading.
  
  I usually think worst case situation and plan back from it.
  what is the worst case situation regarding my privacy? What is the worst case situation from not using the APP?
  
  It can really help contact tracing, which is outlined by WHO as a vital way to contain an pandamic.
[Deactivated] on 28/04/2020 - 23:51

+4

So today there was 1 yes 1 case of community spread reported across Australia. Yep one.

An interesting stat for those whom claim that those who don't install the app are

selfish, short sighted, ignorant people

This app can save lives which is more important than privacy concerns.

The app has not saved any lives, none anywhere. Zero, zip, zilch. Its a bit like passing on a chain letter to prevent bad luck. It's currently pointless. Maybe in the future it will help maybe in future they'll release the full source code maybe in the future they'll move to a less invasion/more secure app.
- bajirao on 29/04/2020 - 00:37
  
  +2
  
  It will be useful when restrictions are lifted and more people get back on streets, work, restaurants, movie hall, shopping centres etc.
- skid on 29/04/2020 - 11:29
  
  It's a little late. Restrictions are being relaxed in QLD, WA, NSW regardless of the uptake of the app. Not sure what the message will be if installs reach 40% but businesses remain shut. What does 40% equate to in terms of install numbers anyway?
  - ssquid on 29/04/2020 - 19:24
    
    Yeah seems to be a pretty random figure, especially considering it's only tied to a phone number/sim card and plenty of people have more than one of those…
- jackinyourbox on 30/04/2020 - 18:33
  
  -1
  
  It is short-sighted to say the app isn't useful as we are currently in lock down where there is minimal contact with others.
  
  It is also selfish to not contribute positively to help in isolating infections when the app is now available
  
  You need to understand that everyone responds differently to infection - some die, others survive.
  - [Deactivated] on 01/05/2020 - 22:13
    
    +2
    
    It is short-sighted to say the app isn't useful
    
    No.
    
    It is also selfish to not contribute positively to help in isolating infections when the app is now available
    
    No, it currently does nothing. Apart from the flaws (.e.g. it doesn't even work in IOS unless in the foreground). Bit they refuse to releas6 the source code yet…why??
    
    Why waste money on a currently ineffective app, when Google+Apple have a safer,ore accurate, more secure, less invasive solution in global testing… AUS Gov were offered it, but apparently refused. Why?
    
    Happy to "do my part" but the govt has to do their part. Either release the source code, or use the Google/Apple framework which has been designed to be anonymous.
    - jackinyourbox on 02/05/2020 - 14:20
      
      In summary, You will not use the app to help save lives because you value your privacy more. That is selfishness.
      
      The method in which the app is designed to work makes sense. It's implementation is debatable, however that's not a good excuse to not participate.
      
      It's paramount to utilise what's available right now.
      - [Deactivated] on 02/05/2020 - 14:42
        
        @jackinyourbox: Do you believe your actions are selfless and saving lives? I think your anxiety is manifesting as a Quixotic martyr complex.
        
        jackinyourbox on 02/05/2020 - 15:20
        
        -3
        
        @[Deactivated]: I was rebutting supabrudda's comments.
        
        I don't care how you think about my comments.
        
        The method in which the app works requires more participation and support than it currently has. The whole purpose of the app is to help everyone, even assholes.
        
        [Deactivated] on 02/05/2020 - 15:30
        
        @jackinyourbox: Nah, it's a fidget spinner for people like you. The 40% adoption (not downloads) requirement to actually be effective isn't getting mentioned very much anymore.
        
        jackinyourbox on 02/05/2020 - 18:08
        
        -4
        
        @[Deactivated]: Everyone has a motivation behind what they write.
        
        My purpose was to encourage adoption of the app.
        
        Your purpose is to shit-talk and troll. This is not the topic to do that in. That's a really trashy thing to do.
        
        [Deactivated] on 03/05/2020 - 11:12
        
        @jackinyourbox: Umm, you claim you are saving lives but you can't even copy files from your phone. That is the technical standard of downloaders.
        
        jackinyourbox on 10/05/2020 - 20:55
        
        @[Deactivated]: https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/535127#comment-8692998
        
        It appears you didn't know either or I upset you so much that you wanted to put me off track?
  - mlcn on 07/05/2020 - 15:39
    
    So, it has been confirmed that the app does not work properly on iOS devices.
    Which means that there are "so many selfish, short sighted, ignorant people" who are using "wrong" devices and unwilling to "save lives".
    - jackinyourbox on 10/05/2020 - 20:57
      
      Umm. No
      
      The intent to participate matters.
      
      Your conclusion maybe seen as just stupidity.
happyholidays1 on 29/04/2020 - 05:30

+3

Australian companies have been overlooked yet again in a government process! So much for supporting Aussie jobs!
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-24/amazon-to-provide-clo…
If you trust Amazon (a zero tax paying foreign company) with your phone data, go download the app. The LNP has Ministers in its own ranks refusing to download the app. Do they know something YOU don't and not telling the Australian public?
EightImmortals on 29/04/2020 - 07:20

Very interesting chat with a couple of working E.R. doctors.

https://tinyurl.com/ybntu58j

(If youtube take it down again you can get a copy here Download Link: https://mega.nz/file/v1pSHYzB#BS1cGFu5X_67bzIYszdF8O8eV-GegM… )
HomerJ on 29/04/2020 - 11:09

+1

I know it has been mentioned a few times already, but Australia already has "Data retention obligations" since Oct 2015, that track more than the COVID-19 APP.

If you are interested in what this means you can read: https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/about-us/our-portfolios/natio…

The data-set can be found here: https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/nat-security/files/dataset.pd…

Topic 6 of the dataset is interesting:

The following in relation to the equipment
or line used to send or receive the
communication:
a) the location of the equipment or line at
the start of the communication;
b) the location of the equipment or line at
the end of the communication.
Examples: Cell towers, Wi-Fi hotspots.

Service providers are not required to keep
continuous, real-time or precise location
records, such as the continuous GPS
location of a device. These limitations seek
to ensure that the locations records to be
kept by service providers do not allow
continuous monitoring or tracking of devices

"Service providers are not required" but doesn't mean they can't or won't!!!

From their FAQ's
Q: 2.3. Can I use retained data for business purposes?
A: Retained data remains the property of the service provider. As such, it can be used for lawful
purposes, such as network trouble shooting.
- [Deactivated] on 29/04/2020 - 11:16
  
  So a hard nope from you?
  - HomerJ on 29/04/2020 - 12:14
    
    +2
    
    Nah I'm actually all for the COVID-19 APP (and I come from an IT background). I have a family, I also care for an elderly family friend, so if I can prevent them contracting the virus and possibly death then it's my duty of care.
    
    It's FaceBook that I can't understand why so many people share so much information on.
    
    "The Great Hack" on Netflix is an interesting watch, regarding Cambridge Analytica and FaceBook
  - petry on 29/04/2020 - 18:22
    
    +1
    
    "US law does not allow for the mandating of the decryption of data as is now permitted under Australian law," it said.
    
    "Irrespective of the amendments introduced by the Assistance and Access Act in Australia, the provisions of the CLOUD Act will not allow US service providers to provide technical assistance beyond their existing obligations under [the Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act]."
    
    Australia's mandatory telecommunications data retention regime would also cause the CLOUD Act problems, according to the Law Council.
    
    Home Affairs rejects that view.
    
    "We've been in intense discussions with the Department of Justice in the United States," said Hansford.
    
    "They have not identified any issues with the Assistance And Access Act that would prevent Australia from successfully negotiating a bilateral agreement with the United States under the CLOUD Act."
    
    and
    
    'Last week, it was revealed that controversial facial recognition company Clearview AI had suffered a data breach. Among all the personal data was its entire client list.
    
    It turns out that AFP plus police services forces in Queensland, Victoria, and South Australia have dozens of registered accounts with Clearview AI. Between them they've run more than 1,000 searches.
    
    Now PJCIS has only just completed a review of a proposal for a national facial recognition system. They sent the draft legislation back for further work. That reworked legislation has yet to be presented to Parliament.
    
    Given that, Shadow Attorney-General Mark Dreyfus had a simple question.
    
    Dreyfus: Does the AFP use this technology?
    
    Kent: I'm aware, I've asked that question today off the back of media reporting myself, and to give you a fulsome answer I'd like to take that on notice until I've clarified the information.
    
    Dreyfus: The media report says that the AFP has rejected several Freedom of Information requests in relation to Clearview AI. Do you know why those requests have been rejected?
    
    Kent: I have had advice from my legal team who have advised me that they need to do some further digging, given the media reporting and the matters raised in that article, or those articles.
    
    Dreyfus: You'll appreciate the concern in this committee that in the absence of an existing legal framework in Australia, the thought that such facial recognition technology was being used by the Australian Federal Police would be a concern. So we would like to take that on notice.'
    
    Since the keys to the data are being placed in the amazon operated cloud, subject primarily to American law, it seems obvious that the yanks get the data without any oversight in full, whenever they want - that makes us American subjects now…
    
    scummo's America first government also wants data retention increased to 7 years.. presumably because the yanks want it..
    
    If covids not a problem anymore, cuz companies want more money having cleared the governments trough, why the hard sell on the app, with all the data being stored by a yank company operating under American legal jurisdiction?
    - CookieJacker31 on 30/04/2020 - 12:45
      
      +1
      
      The data that Amazon stores in the central DB is basically just junk data. ID code matched with Name, phone #, postcode, age range. Meh.
      
      Nothing there the Australian government doesn't already know two dozen different ways. Given the number of people with FB, Google, eBay, Amazon, PayPal, etc etc accounts, what exactly do they think the Covid app gives America they couldn't already get?
      
      All the juicy stuff (contact data) is stored on your phone not on Amazon's servers. Any 007s, El Chapos, etc the US might be interested in won't have the app on the first place.
      - petry on 30/04/2020 - 17:51
        
        @CookieJacker31: information the government says they're collecting is more than you state - so who is voting up this incomplete and misleading post?
        
        SBOB on 30/04/2020 - 19:11
        
        @petry: Why not spell out what you think the app is storing on AWS in Sydney that they haven't detailed?
        
        And what you think this data is divulging about you that wouldn't otherwise be known by plenty of alternative methods of someone really wanted to track details about you?
        
        petry on 30/04/2020 - 23:48
        
        @SBOB: And why don't you just repeat what the government said in full, which you know is different?
        
        As for your second misleading question, you really need to add in American real time access to mobile devices and many others, operating in conjunction with the data being fed to amazon.
        
        Do you really think this data use is that limited?
- [Deactivated] on 01/05/2020 - 22:38
  
  Yes they can request individual's datasets.
  
  My issue is the possibility to track continuously pong phone's and those who surround them.
  
  There's is no need for a centralised DB. Sure have a centralised DB of the 14days worth of their randomised Bluetooth id:s which phone apps can download & check against. Which is what Google+Apple are going. But there is no need to store our dets on a DB.
  
  The recent High Court "victory" by News Corp where the search warrant to raid Annika Smethurt's house was ruled as invalid, but the feds get to.keep the material they found in this illegal raid. Which means the cops can raid the DB, even if illegal, the do what they like with the data.
  
  https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/apr/15/high-…
  
  Combined with the current state of emergency powers the cops have, where you can't even goto court to have your fine overturned. The cops issue you with a breach notice…e.g the L plater, the kebab man, the one year old holiday pix posted on social media people. If the media hadn't of picked up their story and had it reversed, there is no recourse. You have pay the fine.
  
  So forgive me if I don't trust governments who are screaming for revenue (no pokies/gambling, speed cameras, stamp duty revenue - Their holy Trinity for money) to not use the data to start fining people who they decide aren't following the rules.
  
  People can bang on about Facebook, Apple, Google, etc, snooling. But they don't have the power to fine you.
  
  At the moment the app makes no difference to contact tracing. It'll help in the future, but the Govt should release the source code OR even better give people the option to use the more anonymous Google/Apple framework and have not central DB.
cerealJay on 01/05/2020 - 15:08

+6

Download numbers mean nothing. The numbers they should be releasing are the active users, which would be a LOT lower than downloads.

Why aren't reporters asking for active user numbers? I predict if you ask Scomo for that data, you will be denied.

So many people will download the app, use it once only, or delete it, or not give it required permissions. Download numbers don't reflect those cases.

How come everyone forgot this basic fact?
- petry on 01/05/2020 - 18:31
  
  +1
  
  permissions - you reckon your phone can be secured that way?
  
  end of the day there would be a lot less concern if the data was being looked after by an Australian company operating under Australian law - scommo's America first puppet show don't do Australia first privacy contracts - it all must go to the US.
  
  the funniest thing is our privacy laws are shit anyway by design - but even toilet paper is better than nothing…
- [Deactivated] on 01/05/2020 - 22:58
  
  +1
  
  The amount of d/l in the first 12hrs seemed inflated. My first thought was how many times was it downloaded into an android simulator like BlueStacks? They can create a new device ID, download it again & again.
  
  Its good marketing to give the impression that everyone else is downloading it, align that with bots on the forums/FB/Twitter/etc pushing the social guilt by telling people they're irresponsible & selfish if they dont d/l it and will be responsible for killing grandma. Then real people pick up the wave, and start trying to smugly pressuring people into installing it. Media picks up the story & runs with it. Then the brilliant bit of publishing a fake fake of somebody has a doctored screenshot of the app telling you you've gone outside your area (that really was a stroke of genius)…
  
  Job done, no need to address those pesky security concerns. <Tin foil hat securely on>
  
  But seriously, I wish they'd release the actual source code, or just wait and integrate into the Google/Apple API's. I'll personally download it onto people's phones.
  - cerealJay on 01/05/2020 - 23:23
    
    I'd be interested to know what analytics they have installed if any. I wonder if the app calls home to measure at least a ping. Not that basic measuring isn't present in most apps, but just wondering how they're doing it here. Other than that, the concept is not that bad in the way it stores data on the phone, and then gives you prompt to upload, rather than just taking it without asking.
    
    I wish more apps had this common courtesy to keep you involved every step, with choice. When handling our data it's rude not to give choice. This app at least is not just auto-uploading/updating as it sits purring in background. But I never really liked the back-door fiasco, and now they're asking favours about software installation on my computer phone. :)
    - petry on 02/05/2020 - 23:07
      
      +1
      
      so the code's been released to verify this then?
      - cerealJay on 05/05/2020 - 12:56
        
        @petry: No, it hasn't been released, but someone decompiled it and has provided some technical analysis. Nothing too exciting, but may be of interest. https://github.com/vteague/contactTracing
        It turns out the app does try to regularly connect to the internet as part of its normal operation. So they would surely know detailed usage stats from that, such as how many people used the app on any given day. This would be interesting to know, but I bet they don't want to share that info.
        
        petry on 05/05/2020 - 18:16
        
        @cerealJay: I am so surprised that the initial build does that - was this before permissions or after or isn't that clear?
        
        wonder what the update will bring which is automatic I assume?
Agret on 01/05/2020 - 23:47

I haven't downloaded the app but received 3 text messages from AUSGOV (no return number) today with a verification code for the app. Not sure what's going on there.
- ssquid on 02/05/2020 - 02:57
  
  +3
  
  Somebody else attempted to use your phone number to register, pretty straightforward.
checkingthisout on 05/05/2020 - 14:31

+1

Sure, if the whole thing was open source, server and all.

COVID-19 Tracking App Mega Discussion Thread

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