Anyone Annoyed by The Retailer Profiteering from 3G Shutdown?

constipated on 20/10/2024 - 19:24

Anyone noticed the complete absence of sales on phones since about September in the lead up to the 3G shutdown? All retailers have basically hiked up all their prices to RRP for most popular phones. This compared to the endless promotions particularly June, July, August which were popping up on Ozbargain.

Knowing people are likely to be desperate, retailers look like they are looking to make the most of it instead of just continuing with usual sales they were having.

Looking for an Android phone. Note the absence of sales on Ozbargain's favourite Motorola G84 compared to previously. Nothing lately for Google Pixel Phones. All Samsung midrange phones back up to RRP.

Mobile 3G

Comments

  • mapax on 20/10/2024 - 19:31
    +13

    I think the 3g shutdown is absolute BS and I am pissed because 3g is the only thing that works at my shack, but you’ve known about this for a long time.
    Optus was also giving out free phones for impacted customers.
    Someone posted a $200 Motorola just the other day.

    • AustriaBargain on 20/10/2024 - 20:22
      +16

      ABC says only 60,000 devices in Australia will be unable to make emergency calls when the shutdown happens. Should the whole country keep that valuable band going just for 60,000 devices? https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-10-16/3g-switch-off-phone-r…

      • thisusernameistaken on 21/10/2024 - 10:08
        +25

        Yes because it's not just 60,000 devices, it's also areas where there is only 3G coverage. I was on the train the other day and it dropped to 3G for my friend and I. He has the latest Samsung (I think S24 Ultra) and I have a Pixel. The train wasn't even underground, it was going through a dense neighborhood.

        I have had little to no coverage driving on some highways recently too. The only time the coverage was 4G or better was near major towns, otherwise it was 3G or nothing.

        Perhaps we should fix the blackspots first before we get rid of 3G and make it worse.

        • fromthehatch on 21/10/2024 - 12:58

          When they say 60,000 devices. Does that mean 60,000 unique devices?

          Or are they saying 60,000 simcards are in phones that wont work after the shutoff?

        • redfox1200 on 22/10/2024 - 09:05

          all good spacemobile will be in australia in about 24 months which will provide coverage for almost 100% of australia through telstra

          • fromthehatch on 23/10/2024 - 14:06
            +1

            @redfox1200: But what about those of us living 6ft under?
            I get no service from down here.

        • Winters Claw on 23/10/2024 - 10:50
          +2

          3G uses some of the best spectrum for long range communication. By turning 3G off this spectrum can be reused for 4G or 5G which will enable the same ranges and reliability as 3G currently provides while offering more speed due to the better technology.

    • SBOB on 20/10/2024 - 20:26
      +24

      and I am pissed because 3g is the only thing that works at my shack,

      so when they repurpose the 3g spectrum and you now have 5g coverage there will you be jumping for joy?

      • Benno007 on 21/10/2024 - 08:07
        +1

        Does that repurposing happen immediately or is it going to be months/years later?

        • ESEMCE on 21/10/2024 - 09:31
          +5

          The expectation is that it'll happen immediately.
          Carriers are paying for that spectrum, they want and legally NEED to utilise it.

      • Pussqunt on 21/10/2024 - 20:19
        +1

        Not how that works. 5G increases the 'channels' used to increase data rate (higher OFDM level) while keeping similar bandwidths and avoiding unwanted noise in neighbouring frequencys.

        Moar data + no other change = worse reception.

        And while the cell tower might be amazing, this extra work (signal processing) occurs on your phone too, hence 1st and second gen 5g phones chewed power.

        • JakeyJooJoo on 22/10/2024 - 13:19
          +1

          For those downvoting Pussqunt, care to explain why you're negging?

          Their explanation is correct. Fact check yourself to confirm if you disagree.

          In simple terms,
          5G = frequencies that have epic speeds but project a shorter distance from cell towers.
          3G = frequencies that have low speeds but project a greater distance from cell towers.

          So there are plenty of situations where 3G is great to have. I travelled around aus recently and my pixel connected to 3g regularly. Having NoG a lot crapper than 3g.

          • ESEMCE on 22/10/2024 - 14:58
            +6

            @JakeyJooJoo: But the tech is irrelevant to the frequency used. 5G will be re-using the 3G frequencies not deleting them from history.
            It hasn't to date because 3G is still active on those frequencies.

            Will 5G data rate be as fast on 850MHz carrier versus a 3500MHz carrier? No
            (Will it be higher than the same signal on 3G? Yes)
            Will G signal on 850MHz propagate further than on 3500MHz? Yes
            (Will it propagate the same distance as the same signal on 3G? Yes)

            • JakeyJooJoo on 22/10/2024 - 19:15
              +1

              @ESEMCE: Ok that makes a lot of sense, cheers for taking the time to explain.

            • Pussqunt on 22/10/2024 - 20:21
              -2

              @ESEMCE: Esemce, more sub channels = more noise = smaller eye signals = less range.

              The issue isn't the propogation on the same channel. It is seperating the sub carriers.

            • darkly on 23/10/2024 - 13:26
              -1

              @ESEMCE: You are exactly right.

              FYI - Australian Band Summary

              • Pussqunt on 23/10/2024 - 20:38
                -1

                @darkly: I'll explain a different way.

                Bandwidth is like a bathtub. Fill it with big balls and you'll have a low amount of data, but it is easy to see one ball from the other

                Now fill it with balls 64 times smaller. You have far more data, but you need to get up close to pick each ball.

                Imagine your bathtub can hold another tubs worth of balls each time you rotate it 45 degrees. Your balls only need to be 8 times smaller for the increase in data, but you have to rotate your tub to find a particular ball. This is basically phase shift.

                Now what if you could install more bathtubs in the bathroom, say 8. You now can have the big balls that are easy to distinguish and have high data (sub carriers).

                But the bathroom has no walls. When you drop your balls in your tub they splash over to your neighbours tub, stopping them from using their tub. So you have to use smaller balls and only partially fill your tub so your neighbours don't complain to the police (ACMA) about you putting your big balls in their tub, ruining their enjoyment of their tub (interference).

                5G doesn't magically increase data rates. Signals need to be smaller to fit more data in the same bandwidth. Smaller signals mean less range.

      • Lichen6420 on 22/10/2024 - 15:37
        +1

        I remember this game when working at Telstra when they were launching 3G 850, marketed as NEXTG at the time.

        Same shit from people on the CDMA network that was being shut to allow for 3G rollout, they claimed the sky was going to fall in, the coverage would not be the same, it was all a big consoiracy to sell phones.

        And guess what people moved on… and now it's 3G's turn.

        The 850mhz spectrum is very valuable and being low frequency is great for long distance coverage. Repurposing this for 4G and 5G is a really good thing.

    • HeWhoKnows on 21/10/2024 - 21:52
      -1

      Not many phones with only 3G receptionthese days

      They are dinosaurs and need replacing anyway.

      Not enough to move the market like OP suggests.

      • AdrianW on 22/10/2024 - 17:47
        +2

        But, according to Optus my phone (which has 4G VoLTE and 5G) will stop working next week and I need to get a new device to stay connected.

        I'm going to wait and see.

      • ihfree on 22/10/2024 - 17:58
        +1

        Except it isn't just 3G only phones.

        https://www.ozbargain.com.au/comment/15827470/redir

        Yet another reply to a top level comment that misses the mark.

  • ihfree on 20/10/2024 - 19:33
    +14

    There's are a decent number of phones on special.

    https://www.ozbargain.com.au/tag/android?noexpired=1

    You can't blame retailers for something that you've known about for months.

    • gyrex on 21/10/2024 - 11:41
      +9

      I'm pretty sure the 3G shutdown has been known and advertised for years. I remember reading about it in 2019 at least.

      • ESEMCE on 21/10/2024 - 14:07
        +8

        It has, but the unknown issue was E000 compatibility. Carriers didn't even (publicly) realise this would be a problem until approximately 12 months ago.
        So many <5 year old phones that are VoLTE capable will be disconnected and it's not just Grey-Import devices.

        • djoz on 22/10/2024 - 00:48

          I'm wondering if I can prevent my 'incompatible' phone from getting blocked, by proactively removing my SIM, and putting it in a new handset. This way, I still have the 'incompatible' phone unblocked by Optus/Telstra and can be used to insert a roaming SIM (from abroad), I need this for myself. If I do so, will they still eventually find it out and block it? What's the deal with non-Aus SIMs inserted in 'incompatible' phones? 90 days is it?

          • ESEMCE on 22/10/2024 - 07:10

            @djoz: I expect a roaming SIM to work indefinitely.
            But you'll get prepared by notifications regarding E000 just like you are at the moment.

            • djoz on 22/10/2024 - 09:22
              +2

              @ESEMCE: Thanks mate, I'd expect that too. I just want my phone IMEI to stay unblocked in Aus (for whatever reason — like the roaming SIM use, etc.).

              From experience, amaysim scans the phones on Friday each week (to potentially give out codes). I've also got one email on 15-Oct which stated:

              Your device will be blocked sometime starting Monday 28 October through to Friday 1 November 2024

              So, as per my wish I think I should remove the SIM before Friday (before amaysim scans IMEIs again).

      • fromthehatch on 21/10/2024 - 14:10
        +3

        Its just allot of been caught out by the governments sudden decision to block any phones that dont support E000. Its a fair mess because some phones only support E000 on 1 sim slot. So theres going to be people having their devices disabled the simcard is in the wrong slot.

        Theres allot of people who are going to get blocked and they dont even know about it because of that sudden change.

        • zachhambo on 22/10/2024 - 11:44
          +5

          Yep, and phones that can call E000 but aren't whitelisted and get blocked anyway

  • boomramada on 20/10/2024 - 19:36
    +42

    I'm annoyed by people who winge about the 3G shutdown which was announced in 2019 and I don't even own any phone that supports 3G even in 2019 lol

    • bazingaa on 20/10/2024 - 22:10
      +4

      I got my first LTE phone in 2014 (Sony Xperia V). I was a fresh graduate in a 3rd world country, and ironically I was an UMTS (3G) access network engineer lol. I can't even comprehend how this shutdown has become a major issue here.

      • Forfiet on 21/10/2024 - 05:13
        +2

        Not totally cut and dry when most early and up to 2019-20~ handsets were using 3g voice and LTE for data only…. Or Telstra using a different VoLTE config from the standard most over countries used…. But, It has been on the cards for years now…..

    • Benno007 on 21/10/2024 - 08:08
      +2

      I just bought a brand new 2024 mode car and the OTA updates rely on 3G network somehow! Need to do an urgent software update to get it to work on 4G… so manufacturers not really been thinking about it either…

      • boomramada on 21/10/2024 - 09:45

        Doesn't it come with a WIFI option? Most worrying would be all those back-to-base monitoring systems, ie communication modules in Lift, Or emergency communication systems or the hardware that 3g module built into the motherbored. That be good fun to replace :)

        • Benno007 on 21/10/2024 - 13:05
          +1

          Nope, just usb or OTA, but via SIM only :(

          Yeah we had to pay thousands to Otis for them to replace the 2 3G modules in our elevators too.

        • besttechadvisor on 21/10/2024 - 23:26

          My business is getting a lot of customers onboard now because they've suddenly realised their systems aren't going to be running legally in a few weeks… It's amazing how poorly this whole thing has been handled by the private sector.

      • serpserpserp on 22/10/2024 - 07:28

        What car is this?

        • JimB on 22/10/2024 - 11:54
          +1

          I'm also interested.

          You would have thought that a modern car that has the capability for OTA updates, I'm assuming an EV, would have 3G, 4G and 5G connection.

          The 5G backwards compatible chip would have cost $1.75 more to than the 3G chip.

          • serpserpserp on 22/10/2024 - 18:45

            @JimB:

            I'm assuming an EV

            I'm assuming ICE because their tech is usually so broke and outdated

            • JimB on 23/10/2024 - 09:25

              @serpserpserp: We need to be able to have a poll to bet if it's ICE or EV.

        • Benno007 on 23/10/2024 - 21:04
          +1

          Hyundai Kona ICE. The tech/body is exact same between hybrid and EV and everyone including EV and hybrid owners are still waiting on the software update.

  • rumblytangara on 20/10/2024 - 19:37
    +25

    Has the dead horse been flogged enough yet?

    • DashCam AKA Rolts on 20/10/2024 - 19:58
      +1

      O.P.'s user name checks out.

    • ihfree on 22/10/2024 - 19:55
      +1

      I would be very surprised if killing the dead horse didn't go for a few months beyond the shutdown.

  • SBOB on 20/10/2024 - 20:25
    +6

    Note the absence of sales on Ozbargain's favourite Motorola G84 compared to previously.

    so one selected phone, therefore must be a conspiracy to price gouge those with outdated phones?
    eg other Motorola deals have been posted in just the last couple of days, eg G85, G54
    https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/872175
    https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/872026

    I assume you've compared against previous years for the same time period and concluded there is definitely a significant reduction in sales (not that its say, the month before all the black friday/christmas sales start and its just business as usual)

    there would be more phones sold every day for normal 'non outdated' users compared to the numbers of legacy/outdated phones about to be unusable.

  • askbargain on 20/10/2024 - 20:31
    +7

    4G shutdown is coming soon btw. Don't say nobody told you.

    • Mechz on 20/10/2024 - 21:36
      -1

      If 6G is widely adopted it will be fine. Have you seen the potential speeds it will bring?

      • serpserpserp on 22/10/2024 - 07:28
        +3

        Super fast but you need to be 10 meters max from a phone tower to use it

  • djones145 on 20/10/2024 - 21:00
    +17

    wait wait wait
    are u saying 2G has been shutdown already?
    prolly explains why no one answers my calls or calls me

    • try2bhelpful on 20/10/2024 - 22:01

      When the phone tower is a la “Green Acres”.

  • constipated on 20/10/2024 - 21:02
    +11

    3G shutdown was well described and expected. What is relatively new is the Government and Telco's decision to stop allowing any phones which can't do 4G emergency calls having any service whatsoever. I have a phone which is functioning fine with VoLTE but due to the Emergency call issue will soon cease to function. Had been planning to use my functioning VoLTE enabled phone and perhaps wait for some Black Friday deals.

    • mapax on 20/10/2024 - 21:15
      +1

      The $206 Motorola that I posted a link to seems like a reasonably good deal.

      • constipated on 20/10/2024 - 21:36
        -1

        Thanks, mainly looking at mid range google pixel or samsung for longevity of OS updates. G54 am not sure it would get many more updates. Google and Samsungs have better SoCs and cameras. Esim is a must.

        Samsung A55 was down to $497, now all $600-700.

        Missed the Pixel 8 Mobileciti deal. Pixel 8a no worthwhile deals currently though there were 2 months ago.

    • singingwolf on 21/10/2024 - 08:05
      +1

      Wasn't the telcos that decided to ban non E000. It was the govt.

    • AdrianW on 22/10/2024 - 17:51
      +1

      I refuse to believe than my 4G VoLTE capable phone will stop working until it actually stops working.

  • DingoBilly on 20/10/2024 - 21:39
    +12

    You think that's bad? I bought 4 horses for me and my family back in 1920 for $1.00 and now they're telling me I can't ride them to the city and back on the road. It's all a conspiracy by car makers to drive up prices. It's ridiculous.

    • try2bhelpful on 20/10/2024 - 22:02
      +1

      How are those shares in Buggy Whip manufacturers going?

      • Antikythera on 21/10/2024 - 16:56

        its no joke. my grandfather ran a chaff mill. he left it to my uncle in his will. not worth the paper it was written on.

        • try2bhelpful on 21/10/2024 - 18:48

          What happens when people don’t adapt to the times.

    • constipated on 20/10/2024 - 22:38
      -8

      It's fine to say you don't share my view. Not complaining about the 3G shutdown at all. It's the price of progress.

      • Hirolol on 21/10/2024 - 07:26
        +1

        Announced 2019 about shut down
        You had 5 years to buy a new phone lol

      • rumblytangara on 21/10/2024 - 09:54
        +3

        Not complaining about the 3G shutdown at all. It's the price of progress.

        But instead you're complaining about the 'profiteering' of the evil phone retailers because of the shutdown? And this 'profiteering' is… not running as many sales on the exact models of phone that you want?

        Seriously, WTF.

    • Ade99 on 21/10/2024 - 08:25
      +1

      I am selling up my valve shares and going big on transistors!

  • Guerilla89 on 20/10/2024 - 23:08
    -1

    It's needed to shut down 3G for security reasons (preventing the forcible porting of phone numbers or interception of SMS messages). Radio bandwidth is also a limited resource.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVyu7NB7W6Y

    • ESEMCE on 21/10/2024 - 09:35
      +5

      4G/5G doesn't resolve this flaw AFAIK.

      • Jolakot on 21/10/2024 - 14:59
        -2

        4G/5G is only vulnerable because of backwards-compatibility with 3G, so once 3G is shutdown we can finally retire SS7

        • ESEMCE on 21/10/2024 - 15:17
          +4

          But this is a global problem, so interoperability with Global networks that are still running 2 and 3G will require it to remain.

          • eug on 21/10/2024 - 15:45
            -2

            @ESEMCE: So you think we shouldn't bother doing anything to move towards eliminating the issue?

            • ESEMCE on 21/10/2024 - 15:53
              +2

              @eug: Not sure how my opinion is relevant to the fact that the system will remain active until all/most networks across the globe transition away from 2 and/or 3G. (assuming that 4G and higher do not require it, which I am skeptical of)

              • eug on 21/10/2024 - 17:11
                -1

                @ESEMCE: You can't just wait around for the whole world to decide on one day to shut down 2G/3G.

                As old standards go out of date and start causing security problems, you transition away as new technology comes in. Richer countries tend to do it first. Eventually the rest of the world catches up and the old standard is laid to rest.

  • neoleo on 20/10/2024 - 23:25
    +3

    What is relatively new is the Government and Telco's decision to stop allowing any phones which can't do 4G emergency calls having any service whatsoever.

    This one is the most annoying part for many people that have phones and other devices with sim card not in the white/approved list. Let's see how many devices will be impacted, how many complaints, and devices owned by people from overseas.

    Just let people decide whether they still want to keep using their devices without 000 support or more e-waste …

    Imagine the reactions from all people that have unlisted/unapproved 5G phones even though all bands supported include band 28. Not only unsupported 4G/3G phones …

    If for example expensive Asus ROG phones or previous gen expensive Sony phones with all bands supported get blocked, will these phones become e-waste or tablet replacement lol.

    • rumblytangara on 21/10/2024 - 20:03
      -5

      This one is the most annoying part for many people that have phones and other devices with sim card not in the white/approved list. Let's see how many devices will be impacted, how many complaints, and devices owned by people from overseas.

      Speak for yourself, not for others.

      We a handful of fairly modern to fairly old phones. Probably somewhere around ten.

      If any of them become unusable, then I buy new phones. I'm not going to whinge at the government, I am not going to make up BS ewaste!!1 arguments (I think there are much more serious waste issues than obsoleted phones caused by once in a decade major tech shifts).

      • neoleo on 21/10/2024 - 22:22
        +3

        Are you okay bro? I am on the Consumers side. Still there are developed countries that have not turned off 3G yet, even certain countries still have 2G (including western countries).

        "However, 2G networks were still available as of 2023 in most parts of the world, while notably excluding the majority of carriers in North America, East Asia, and Australasia"
        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2G

        Read the list under "Phase out"
        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/3G

        Even UK, Sweden France, Canada, Japan, New Zealand etc. still have 3G.

        Banning people's phones from telco companies feels authoritarian and not okay. We are in Western country. I don't mind 3G shutdown, but not banning people's phones.

        • rumblytangara on 22/10/2024 - 09:08
          -1

          Dude, what regime hurt you so much that you need to bring global politics into discussions about phone obsolescence? Do you want to talk about how how it's authoritarian to have speed limits, licence demerit points, or roadworthy checks for vehicles?

          • neoleo on 22/10/2024 - 09:15
            -1

            @rumblytangara:

            speed limits, licence demerit points, or roadworthy checks for vehicles?

            Unrelated with phones but that's related with safety on the roads. At least they don't ban overseas cars. For example Japan import cars can be used here. I passed by a Japan import cars dealer while on the road recently.

  • saltypete on 21/10/2024 - 09:16

    I guess that just as savvy folk plan ahead and save, last minute buyers miss opportunities. It has always been so.
    Main thing is not to be a 'last minute'.

    Price, timeliness, quality.
    You can always get any two of them, never all three.

  • JimmyF on 21/10/2024 - 09:40
    +4

    Anyone noticed the complete absence of sales on phones since about September

    You mean the same time the new models get released, yeah funny that happens every year!

    All retailers have basically hiked up all their prices to RRP for most popular phones. This compared to the endless promotions particularly June, July, August which were popping up on Ozbargain.

    Again, new models are always RRP, run out models go on sale!

    Knowing people are likely to be desperate, retailers look like they are looking to make the most of it instead of just continuing with usual sales they were having.

    LOL the amount of people needing a new phone because of the 3G is a rounding error compared to new phones sold each day.

    Looking for an Android phone. Note the absence of sales on Ozbargain's favourite Motorola G84 compared to previously.

    Stock getting low since the G85 is out? G84 is still ~$200.

    Nothing lately for Google Pixel Phones.

    LOL Brand new models, no sales on these, only pre order discounts.

    All Samsung midrange phones back up to RRP.

    Updated models too.

    Aluminium Foil is on sale, stock up!

    The real question is, why didn't you update in the last few years while on sale?

  • techno2000 on 21/10/2024 - 11:28
    -2

    Man stop crying.
    Just buy a $200 Motorola G54 or $300 Motorola G84.
    Cheap as.

    Now $1 million for a cardboard house is a different story.

  • FostWare on 21/10/2024 - 12:18
    -1

    If only there had been an automated message on 3G phones during the sales. Oh wait…

  • capslock janitor on 21/10/2024 - 16:02
    +2

    3G shutdown is a huge mistake for bragging rights

  • nobro25 on 21/10/2024 - 16:22
    +1

    If they shutdown 3G they should at least boost the 4G coverage to take over. I know 5G have really short distances but then need more 4g towers to compensate.

    • OzzyOzbourne on 22/10/2024 - 14:14

      Nah… Much like shutting down the coal power stations

  • SteveD on 21/10/2024 - 18:03

    It is called demand vs supply!!

    • RiseAndRuin on 22/10/2024 - 16:37

      It is called greed and stupidity vs. the citizen's best interest.

  • md333 on 21/10/2024 - 20:41

    I only really noticed the shutdown due to the sales. Moto G54 for $9 because I happened to have a spare sim in an old phone.

  • Tiredman on 22/10/2024 - 12:46
    +2

    I have a Xiaomi Note 11 5G using VOLTE. Sent a message to 3498 and unfortunately, it says my phone will be affected unfortunately. I am assuming all functions will still work including calling and messaging? And just the emergency 000 will not.

    • ESEMCE on 22/10/2024 - 12:52
      +5

      No, you will likely lose all service.

    • trapper on 22/10/2024 - 12:55
      +2

      No I think it gets blocked completely, rip.

    • RiseAndRuin on 22/10/2024 - 16:36

      No, see the petition here https://chng.it/bGM7Jvh9My

    • Tiredman on 22/10/2024 - 19:03

      Thanks guys. I guess i need a new phone. lol

    • JimB on 23/10/2024 - 09:36

      Why wouldn't 4G or 5G work on your device?

      • Tiredman on 23/10/2024 - 15:31
        +1

        Apparantly the whole phone will be blocked. I will wait and see if it happens then decide.

        • JimB on 23/10/2024 - 15:37

          Is your Xiaomi Note 11 5G not an international model?

          Seems crazy that you couldn't take a modern 5G phone and use it anywhere around the world.

          • ESEMCE on 23/10/2024 - 15:56

            @JimB: Seems Crazy, but there's no International Standard for Voice over 4/5G.
            As a result, there's no International Standard for Emergency calling on 4/5G.
            It's for this reason that phones thought to be (not necessarily are) non-compliant with Australian mobile networks (and phones MUST be compliant with all 3 Mobile Network Carriers' networks) will be booted from service following 3G shutdown.

          • RiseAndRuin on 23/10/2024 - 16:18
            +1

            @JimB: You can use it anywhere in the world, except Australia.

        • Tiredman on 25/10/2024 - 13:37

          Yeah it is. Got it from Aliexpress but it seems i won't be able to do 000 emergency calls despite having VOLTE and 5G. Only 1.5 years old as well. Can't do without be able to dial 000. lol See how it goes next week.

    • neoleo on 25/10/2024 - 12:26
      +1

      Have you tried to force LTE only mode? Install Force LTE Only app and change the setting to LTE only.

      Good read:
      https://medium.com/@jamesdwho/how-to-check-for-working-volte…

Login or Join to leave a comment
Login Join