The ESV Church Bible is an affordable, practical choice for churches to use as part of their weekly worship services or outreach, featuring all-new typesetting, a durable cover, woodfree paper, and a sewn binding.
Whether you're a believer, a collector, or just need something heavy to keep the door open.
CamelCamelCamel.
@SirFrankGrimes: God should directly alter or add a God determined amount of knowledge to the brains of people allowing them to see their folly.
This knowledge will replace their ignorance.
@SirFrankGrimes: I would expect that an omnipotent being would be able to eliminate most, if not all suffering. If that's too high of a bar, at least curing some low hanging fruit like childhood leukaemia, quadriplegia etc. would be a great place to start.
@Lurk Hartog: I'd rather if he was all powerful, all seeing, all knowing to do something about cancer in babies. That's just cruel so if he could sort that out that would be fantastic, rather than 'blessing' wealthy middle-class white people #blessed.
@Eeples: Suffering certainly isn’t one blanket category, and much of the suffering we’re seeing in the Middle East is caused by human sin (wrongdoing, evil, whatever you call it).
The more challenging question is on the ‘innocent suffering’ - genetic cancers, disabilities, natural disasters (that aren’t climate change / human cause related), etc…
How can a loving God allow such suffering?
To be honest, there isn’t a straightforward or comforting answer.
However, Christians believe that God is there with us during suffering, that He himself knows what suffering is through Jesus, and that He gives us comfort and hope that one day suffering will end when we go to heaven.
Atheism does not give us any answers on suffering, so believing there isn’t a God doesn’t fill me with any confidence when I look at the world around me
@SirFrankGrimes: Atheism is not about believing in what is comforting, it's about believing in things that we have evidence for.
@Lurk Hartog: That’s not my point regarding atheism. Christianity doesn’t deny the science or mechanics of suffering, but it does go beyond that and give humans comfort and hope amidst such tragedy.
Christianity is based on historical people and events, particularly the life, death and resurrection of Jesus.
I mentioned in another comment on this thread just how reliable the Bible is compared to all other Ancient texts.
Interestingly too, atheism has been on the decline in the past decade. It has lost its panache for many reasons, notably in that several well-known atheists have become theists and even Christians.
I appreciate that doesn’t act as evidence for Christianity, but it does demonstrate that it is not simply a blind faith based on nothing more than desperation or indoctrination.
atheism has been on the decline in the past decade
Would be interested in seeing those 'stats'.
At a guess, while there might be a decline in the general population claiming or spruking atheism, if you include agnostic and 'just nothing' kind of answers regarding religion I would assume that population group is 'increasing'?
@SBOB: True atheism, the belief in no God whatsoever, is on the decline. It’s well-research and documented in Western and Eastern cultures.
Nominal theistic belief is growing, as is Christianity, particularly in Asia, Africa and the Middle East.
True atheism, the belief in no God whatsoever, is on the decline. It’s well-research and documented in Western and Eastern cultures.
Nominal theistic belief is growing, as is Christianity, particularly in Asia, Africa and the Middle East.
as above, Would be interested in seeing those 'stats'
For example, basic raw number census data in this country would not align with such 'research'
eg simplistic, but clearly observable trends such as https://www.abs.gov.au/articles/religious-affiliation-austra…
(which by no coincidence also aligns with other countries, eg US - https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/09/13/how-u-s-reli… or UK - https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-63792408
as just two similar examples)
A basic trend line of 'religious belief' vs 'non religious belief' would be interesting, as I would consider the 'blurry' lines around what 'vertical' someone aligns with in the 'theistic belief' options about the same as the 'blurry' lines around what 'vertical' someone aligns with in the non-theistic belief 'options'.
It has lost its panache for many reasons, notably in that several well-known atheists have become theists and even Christians.
Who?
@ihfree: There’s a list of them in this article as an example: https://billmuehlenberg.com/2024/04/23/what-is-happening-to-…
much of the suffering we’re seeing in the Middle East is caused by human sin (wrongdoing, evil, whatever you call it).
I call it ignorance.
through Jesus, and that He gives us comfort and hope that one day suffering will end when we go to heaven.
Heaven? I believe the popular Christian religions nowadays are using the hook of a personal actual physical resurrection. (Their ‘evidence’ is the assertion that Jesus’s resurrection was physical).
You couldn’t make this stuff up. Or, maybe you can.
@Eeples: @Eeples, are you calling my comment ignorance, or the suffering in the Middle East ignorance?
What is happening in the Middle East is caused by long standing geopolitical and religious tension between Arabs and Jews. It’s because of human desire for power, land, money, control, etc based on pre-existing beliefs and desires. In a nutshell, I’d call this immorality or wrongdoing.
It’s naive and unrealistic to think that Jews and Arabs would simply ‘get along’ and compromise for the sake of the other, but it’s still nonetheless virtuous to aspire for that outcome.
@SirFrankGrimes: "What is happening in the Middle East is caused by long standing geopolitical and religious tension between Arabs and Jews. It’s because of human desire for power, land, money, control, etc based on pre-existing beliefs and desires. In a nutshell, I’d call this immorality or wrongdoing."
Interesting interpretation given your previous comments… So you believe that jews' claims to the land of israel because god gave it to them 10,000 years ago is an immoral crock of shit
We might actually agree on something, though probably not much on this subject.
@rooster7777: The stuff going on in the Middle East is quite complex, but at the heart of it I’m convinced it’s based in selfish human desire.
@Eeples, are you calling my comment ignorance, or the suffering in the Middle East ignorance?
No. I am saying evil or the bad things happening in the Middle East are happening out of ignorance.
It was asked what I would have God do to fix the Middle East and I suggested He ought to remove that ignorance.
Without the intervention of God I would suggest everyone in the world needs to work to enlighten, convince, educate and inform all sides of the conflict of a meaningful modern ethical framework which makes sense in the 21st century.
The main principles of secular ethics include rationality, human well-being, fairness, justice, and individual rights.
Unfortunately the development of a secular ethical framework doesn’t seem to be valued or seen as a priority. It should be.
Eg. it should be taught in schools.
Eg. Separation of church and state should be pushed
Eg. Uni should compel students to take ethics classes
Eg. Politicians should declare their ethical frameworks
Eg. Churches get to keep their tax incentives provided they also promote a secular ethic
Etc
I want to own some slaves and need guidance on how to treat them. Will this book help me?
You'd be better off consulting the Talmud for that one.
If you go back to the 1st Century Roman Empire and take the Bible along with you, then yes, you’d get some great advice on treating slaves properly.
Yes, you can get them from lands around you, but not from your own land. That would be wrong.
Also you're allowed to beat them so badly that they can take almost two days to recover. That's okay. Any more than that is forbidden. Sounds reasonable to me.
Also you're allowed to beat them so badly that they can take almost two days to recover. That's okay. Any more than that is forbidden.
It must feel nice and smug to judge an ancient law by modern standards, but what the mosaic law was doing in this instance was to be one of the first laws in recorded history to limit what a master could do to its slave.
i think the real issue is modern people living by ancient laws
@belongsinforums: It can be hard to believe that people before our time lived and thought differently but things like child sacrifice and infant exposure were a fact of life in ancient times.
I imagine people in the future may likewise scratch their heads at some of the things we don’t bat an eyelid to.
That human life is universally valuable is an idea that we accept uncritically today but it was definitely not the case back then and we can thank Christianity for its introduction to the Western world.
I suggest Tom Holland’s book Dominion for more on this topic.
@haru: Wow 1500 years ago nobody valued human life? I learned so much from you thank you. Stupid me visiting the Louvre and looking at hammirabis code!
nobody valued human life?
It would help your argument if you don't make a straw man out of mine. Absolutely humans valued life, namely their own. That all human life is valuable is a Christian idea.
The Code of Hammirabis is case in point: it favours the lives of the free and wealthy heavily. You won't read 'love your enemies' in there.
@haru: That homosexuals should be stoned is a lovely Christian idea but you conveniently leave that out
@belongsinforums: That and lots of other Mosaic laws are left out since Jesus came along and fulfilled them.
Yes! The ESV is especially clear in modern English
Ex.21.20 When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. 21 But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.
All this hot discussion but no one has questioned woodfree paper?
Cheaper than toilet paper!
I have nothing against well priced, quality bibles being published on Ozbargain, but I await the comments section if someone posts a Koran or Torah deal. That will be interesting.
I await the comments section if someone posts a Koran or Torah deal. That will be interesting.
Look no further: https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/701512
If anyone manages to read this comment, can I recommend that if you are interested in reading the Bible for the first time, look for a version called CSB or NLT (more reader friendly) and the 'study' version. It has a lot of useful information that will help you understand the context. The ESV is for those who prefer accuracy over readability, but none of these three are wrong. I move between them to get different views.
Like this:
CSB Study Bible, Hardcover: Red Letter, Study Notes and Commentary, Illustrations, Ribbon Marker, Sewn Binding, Easy-To-Read Bible Serif Type https://amzn.asia/d/3G9SBB7
It is also good to know that you should start at the Gospels in the New Testament, like Mark for example and go from there. The other books are great, but you might as well cut to the chase!
Why not NASB
I'm sorry, but I need a Bible that is bound in leather or leather-like material for durability, include both the Old testament and New Testament, and also include the Pledge of Allegiance and the Bill of Rights.
I’m not sure one exists. You may have found a gap in the market. You should discuss with your local church.
Scary to think that it actually exists and that it is endorsed by your favourite president!
Sorry it isn't for me, it's for a Oklahoma Superintendent friend of mine, he's looking to get $3 million dollars worth of Bibles into schools as a part of new rules requiring the Bible in the states schools.
Are any other fiction books on special or just this one?
how's it compared to NASB and NRSV ?
The recent edition Trump bible will be on the discount desk shortly.
Yes, the one that is printed in China. 😂
Ordered on 4 Oct (before this deal was posted). Just got 2x ESV delivered.
@SirFrankGrimes: The bible gives some clues: