It’s recently come to my attention that here in Victoria “the first day of Term 1 each year must be a student-free day in all government schools to allow for appropriate planning to take place for the arrival of students”.
Maybe I’m missing the intricacies of teaching but didn’t teachers just have 5 weeks of student free days over the Christmas break? What’s the go with this lark? Why is an extra day required? Do they really just take 5 weeks off and do absolutely no work?
Agree.
As someone with many teachers in the family, they absolutely do nothing over the holidays in many cases. It depends on the year level and subject/s though and how much the curriculum changes.
As with most work, careful choices and planning, and using your time efficiently, can avoid extra effort and hours.
Agree. Sister and brother in law both teachers. He in a high school, her primary. Endless leisure time every summer while the rest of us are working most of the time. When she was younger and single she had an amazing tan every year as she went to the beach nearly every day during the summer holidays.
The husband was home from work by 2.30 pm most days (school is local to where they live) when their kids were little. Unless he did 3 hours work after getting home (he didn't), not even close to the time average workers in other jobs have to put in.
It is what it is but the constant complaining about how tough it all is gets me. Every job has stresses. Many teachers, including my relatives, have not worked in any other profession so have no idea about working 8 to 6 for 48 weeks a year. They may do some work outside hours (sister in law a very organised person so probably does more than she needs to) but they certainly are not doing the 8 or so weeks a year worth of this that would be required to get them up to what everyone else in other professions does.
With someone who has a teacher in immediate family, they work their arse off before during and after holidays.
Not everyone is the same.
And most non teachers work their arse off 48 weeks a year and put in extra hours on top of what their contracted hours are.
Yes, you can say that about every single profession. There will always those who go above and beyond whether they are a cleaner, shelf stacker, nurse, engineer, doctor etc. Let's not pretend that that overwhelming majority of teachers love their 11-13 weeks of holidays (vs everyone else's 4) where they do virtually nothing until the day before school. It's an amazing job and if you love spending time with your kids, it's the best job you can get.
Really? I am planning my unit and with that, the assessment rubrics. The first day is usually full of introductions to the year, recapping on policy/procedure, sometimes a guest speaker, then time to set up our rooms.
Can you repeat that in English please…
I would disagree.
My partner is a teacher, I've learnt through her experience that there appears to be two "types" of teachers in the industry. The ones that do it because they love it and have a passion for teaching, and the ones that do it for a paycheck/the extended time off/ the job security. I'll expand on this a little.
The teachers that go into the profession with a passion for it are willing to look past the poor remuneration and the large amount of "unpaid" work having to be done behind the scenes outside of school hours. They do this because they care and want their students to excel. Ironically these teachers end up doing for more for far less money (in a time for remuneration sense) than the "lazy/non passionate" teachers, as their hours spent at home working on class prep, lesson planning etc is all unpaid.
The other group go into the profession because they often don't really know what else to do, there are a lot of people with degrees that can't find a job in that particular field, so doing a dip-ed on top of that lets you get into teaching. There are also those that like the extended holidays and the fact that you can take the piss to a large extent in the current environment of super low supply of teachers. It's very difficult to lose your job for poor performance in Australia as they're screaming for more teachers and schools will literally take whatever they can get.
With that being said, "Are teachers having us on"? well, in some cases yes, and in some cases no. The teachers that love their job, put in the work behind the scenes and are doing the profession for the right reasons will absolutely use that extra day to the benefit of their students. The ones on the other end of the spectrum will probably use the same time to hurriedly prepare something for their students as they likely didn't do anything during their time off.
That begs on big question moving forward, which is "how do we fix this?"
Unfortunately the only way i really see of making this situation better would be both difficult and expensive in the current climate here in Aus. Firstly we need to pay our educators more, whilst simultaneously expecting more from them. Finland has an excellent model where all teachers must have a minimum of a Tertiary degree prior to going into education, and they're paid much better as a result. Teaching needs to be able to attract not only those with a passion for the field, but those who see it as a good and respected career path that is remunerated accordingly. This would mean a lot of the current teachers don't meet the requirements we'd expect in a better system, which has it's own inherent problems in terms of further educating our current teachers or potentially losing a lot when we already have a shortage.
If teaching was a respected career path that attracted intelligent, passionate people and paid them competitively then we'd find that just doing the bare minimum wouldn't be good enough, as there would be far more competition for the job of being and educator and schools could afford to be more selective in hiring. The bonus would also be far better students at a higher educational level graduating as a result.
I say this from a slightly bias perspective as my partner is in any measurable sense far too qualified to "just" be a teacher with a Bio-med science degree from Melbourne uni as well as a masters of teaching and currently completing a masters of inclusive education part time to further up-skill. We're in a fortunate position where i make enough for her to be able to work in the career she is passionate about over following what would be a much more lucrative job in the private science sector. Despite this she still finds it increasingly frustrating seeing lazy teachers obviously there just for a pay check that do little to no planning and have their students suffer as a result.
just my 10c worth, happy to discuss
I think that essay is at least $2 worth!
I hope your partner gives you A+
Unfortunately we increasingly seem to live in a world were people are reluctant to adequately discuss their thoughts in detail anymore. Unless it can be reduced to a "Top ten reasons why teachers are SCAMMERS" or similar garbage then it's unlikely to be explored as a topic.
also, various spelling mistakes and grammatical errors. Worth a B- and best
TLDR?
TLDR : The issue is nuanced. Some teachers need and utilise the time to the benefit of the students and society, others take the piss and are lazy.
furthermore it should only take you 60 seconds or less to read the above.
You can be passionate and also decry the "unpaid" work. It's not an either/or. Unless your wife's "passion" is shown in outperforming her colleagues, she is not focusing her time on something which will move the needle.
I see a lot of useless busy work from my colleagues. I get all my work done, then I go home.
"Passion" is just another word for underpaid. If it wasn't a female-dominated industry, it would be better paid. I am not there to mother the students.
"she is not focusing her time on something which will move the needle."
Do you care to elaborate on this a little?
I think that when it comes to people who have a passion for teaching, it's often about the difference it makes to individuals. Individual students, individual classes, the ability to make someones experience better on a personal level. I don't think it's about making changes to the industry as a whole. At least that's not what i get from her in terms of what motivates her in her job.
On this point : "I am not there to mother the students"
I agree you should not be. i'm not sure where i insinuated that you were? I was directly addressing levels of effort (for clarity i don't mean busy work, i mean real effort) and the correlation that has with results in the classroom. There is absolutely a positive correlation between quality prep time being done and the results in student outcomes.
"If it wasn't a female-dominated industry, it would be better paid."
Over 2/3rds of Veterinarians in Australia are female, so that is a female dominated industry, yet vets are remunerated extremely well. Please remember that correlation doesn't always equate to causation.
I think the reason teaching isn't paid better is a combination of governmental policy, lower educational requirements to entry and perceived perks with working 40 weeks of the year over 48 all being contributing factors.
Do you mind clarifying, are you a teacher yourself?
This is an awesome reply! great insight into good and bad teachers, I'm sure we've all had both throughout our schooling years and the difference between them is night and day!
Why does it follow that children should be allowed to attend school just because there are teaching staff on the premises.
It's not that teachers are getting a day to prepare for classes, it's just the govt doesn't require the students to be at school on specific days.
Going for the record of most pointless forum topics posted?
If so, it's going to take you a while fyi
Kinda feels like Ozb caught the dumb :(
I perceived the question above to be of a rhetorical nature.
Regrettably, many individuals find themselves financially burdened due to the concept of pupil-free days. In the past, one could simply send their children to school, where they would participate in activities with a few teachers present in the assembly hall. However, in recent years, this has evolved, and schools now close during these periods, placing significant financial strain on working-class families.
Pupil-free days, in my view, are not an essential element of the educational system; they are a product of union influence.
Furthermore, it is often challenging to find the right balance in communication. Write excessively, and one risks being dismissed with a "Too long; didn't read" comment. Conversely, providing too little explanation can result in being misunderstood by those with a more simplistic perspective.
This post appears to be a typical conversation starter, yet the original poster seems to have misunderstood the situation of how OzBargain functions. A more thorough explanation with at least 500 words would be necessary to present a well-rounded position. However, given that many in the OzBargain community are averse to lengthy posts, one might still face criticism regardless of the effort made. It seems one is damned if they do, and damned if they don't.
Individuals who fail to grasp the broader context in such straightforward posts are clearly ill-suited for participation in the discussions on OzBargain.
Yes, I think the average user on here engages with content in an appallingly tribalistic and superficial manner. I don’t understand why the initial pupil free day can’t just come out of the five-week Christmas break, considering there’s another 6 weeks of breaks scattered throughout the rest of the year. Then I’m copping flak for hating nurses? It’s unhinged.
In hindsight, using a phrase which could be construed negatively, even if it’s an obviously light-hearted phrase, was always going to set them off. You’re correct and you probably need to self-abase to avoid generating backlash from such people.
Welcome to OzBargain.
the original poster seems to have misunderstood the situation of how OzBargain functions…many in the OzBargain community are averse to lengthy posts…Individuals who fail to grasp the broader context in such straightforward posts are clearly ill-suited for participation in the discussions on OzBargain.
"Long time lurker, 1h 33m member", no?
@Thrift: I have been quietly observing for quite some time now.
I considered coining an additional acronym that reflects this recurring phenomenon, akin to "Another Day, Another Gift Card Story" (ADAGCS).
One cannot deny that the majority of disputes within the forum stem from this particular issue.
Username working well. AI too.
BTW if you had read the OP as his responses progress he moves from the initial derogatory imputation to complaining about the amount of holidays, then tries to peel back from that. It would matter what forum it was on, the result would be the same. With most respondents asking 'is the OP having a lend'.
"Individuals who fail to grasp the broader context in such straightforward posts are clearly ill-suited for participation in the discussions on OzBargain.
You have found the other end of the only stick here, well done.
@Protractor: I never complained about the amount of holidays, please refrain from telling fibs. If teachers only had a Christmas break, then you could make the case that all five weeks are required as a holiday. However, given they also have another 6 weeks throughout the rest of the year, I think it’s reasonable to expect just 1 week of the Christmas break to be dedicated towards preparing for the upcoming school year.
@CommuterPolluter: Which would still give them 7 weeks more free time than the average person who isn't a teacher.
I disagree completely.
In the past, one could simply send their children down the coalmines or up the chimneys. No adult supervision was needed, and it instilled in children the importance of a good 26 hour day's hard work, not to mention silicosis. Or possibly sarcoidosis. But never lupus.
These days, thanks to the wishy washy rules of civilisation and the pc complaints of "adults" that children were stealing little people's jobs, one has to somehow educate one's children while striving to accumulate as many possible goods as possible, bemoaning the current state of affairs, and haranguing the sad individuals who don't participate in one's echo chamber.
As for the damned, it is not for us mere mortals to determine who is and who isn't damned. In cases like these, we must always reclaim the words of that great leader, Sir Rhettus Butler, and not give a damn at all.
I’d argue they’re* the most pointless current forum member.
A few more ones like this and SlavOz will have competition
*I have a feeling calling them they’re / them will have the intended impact
*I have a feeling calling them they’re / them will have the intended impact
I don’t feel personally offended, if that’s what you meant by having an intended impact. However, l dislike when those such as yourself misgender people with the sole intention of being hurtful.
1680 deal posts and 441 competition posts over the time I've been on here…
Think you need to work harder on your comebacks
Weren't you selling cars at one stage? Isn't that two hours work, an early wet lunch and six hours sobering up for the drive home?
Absolute gold.
OzBForumPolluter is available. Maybe they can consider a username change.
Is The Swastika Now Considered Visually Offensive?
Maybe you should read some history and learn what an actual nazi was.
Maybe you should read some history and learn what an actual nazi was.
OP is driving a German car.
lol. “Fair criticism”
Is The Swastika Now Considered Visually Offensive?
The swastika is a sacred symbol in Hinduism that represents divinity and spirituality…
It is “ to allow for appropriate planning to take place for the arrival of students”.
With all the staff on site, able to work together uninterrupted.
Perhaps you should train as a teacher if you think the pupil free days are such a perk?
They're not working the preceding week.
As a parent of a teacher, yes they are working the preceding week, just not collectively together. Generally, pupil-free days are a chance for full day training/development days. Collective staff meetings to discuss the plan for the rest of the semester/year etc.
Another misconception is that they have more time off than other jobs. The majority of teachers still work during the school holidays (Planning, report writing, marking, cleaning etc.). They just don't have contact time with students.
@ricadam: Cleaning? report writing? come on.
Schools have cleaners, and if a teacher hasn't written reports by January they should be fired.
January they should be fired.
Report writing is usually during school term, obviously…
MOST school have dedicated cleaners. Other smaller ones rely on teachers. Also, the teachers are the ones responsible for the layout and fit out of their classroom.
One example was that my Mum was to move to a new class room that was a former computer room. You would imagine that the room was empty, but it wasn't. We had to come in after Christmas to move 20+ computers, desks and other equipment out of that room so that she could move in her things.
I'm actually surprised with the lack of respect people such as yourself have towards educators…
Other smaller ones rely on teachers
You are kidding right? Any union would have an absolute conniption if they found out a teacher was cleaning toilets.
Unless you are referring to a one teacher school in the middle Cape York, no, teachers do NOT clean schools.
@ricadam: My wife is a teacher, "looking after their classroom" is wildly different to "cleaning". You think teachers are whipping out the vacuum in week 0 and giving the room a once over? Wiping down the fans? Cleaning the louvres?
@811b11e8: Cleaners don't clean my desk, nor others. They clean the floor and empty the bins, that's it.
@ricadam: Not true of the ones in my family and they are pretty good at their jobs. They have a great old time during summer, don't see a lot of work. You know when they are actually working, because the complaining starts again.
Do they do the 8 weeks of full time equivalent work during the holidays to make up the gap to the 4 week holidays everyone else gets?
Another misconception is that they have more time off than other jobs.
Wait what??
lol, they have waaaaaay more time off than other jobs.
@trapper: Possibly true depending on the teacher. Many teachers put in countless hours outside of their paid time in class prep, report writing etc which are not on the clock. Adding all of these hours up severely reduced the extra holiday time you would take on face value.
I regularly see my partner putting in several hours a night in class prep when she gets home from work. Some quick table Math at 1.5 hour per night over 5 days = 7.5 hours per week or essentially a full extra day. Lets say 40 weeks in a school year (roughly) this equates to 40 extra days (8 weeks) of work in a school yeah (easily accounting for the extra time off over a normal job with 4 weeks paid vacation time). Not counting the fact that in the school holidays she's often spending many hours on prep for the next term.
just saying it's not as clear cut as it may seem on the surface, particularly when you take into account the lower level of remuneration compared to other professions.
@ricadam: Working during holidays… Teachers??!! Cmon mate, probably the good ones may do few hours of prep, while the rest of 90+% of em just stroll in the next term without a single care in the world
HA! What a foolish comment.
So who do you propose prepared the learning environment moved the furniture and ensured environmental print was on the walls prior to the students attending?
Lets not forget to include the planned the lessons for at least the first week.
They're not working the preceding week.
You say that, but ricadam says they are actually still working during the school holidays.
"Teachers should work on their time off"
bro, come on
@CommuterPolluter: You're saying they shouldn't work in their time off, but they should come in a week early, during their time off, to set things up?
I don't quite understand.
@OZKap: If that time is needed to prepare for the upcoming year it shouldn’t be scheduled as a 12th week of stand down but rather allocated to planning for the upcoming year.
@CommuterPolluter: Mate just stop talking. Your talking so much crap out of your ass with no first hand experience.
@no fruitz: Most teachers have no first hand experience of jobs where you only get 4 weeks leave a year.
@Brianqpr: If the leave of the occupation is so attractive to you, then what's stopping you from entering it? There is a significant under supply atm, I wonder why.
I mean this very genuinely, why did you not pursue teaching if you found it so easy?
I know plenty of teachers who enjoy their work life balance, but none who think they have an easy job.
My own feeling is there are a lot of blow hards who feel qualified to critique teaching because they went to school, in the same way they critique directing because the watched a movie. Yet when you ask them why they don't take advantage of what they say are overly generous working conditions, they can't answer.
Thing is very few jobs are "easy" any more. Teaching does not have a monopoly on stress or demanding work, despite what many of them seem to think. But you are at those workplaces 8 weeks less per year than most other people.
@Brianqpr: I definitely understand the longer school holidays versus most other jobs. Are you suggesting teachers don't include this when deciding whether to take up the career or apply for a job?
I used to work in a cake shop where I got to take home left overs quite frequently.
Does it follow I should work an extra couple of days for no more pay because I got that perk?
Do you think it is easy to recruit people into teaching and would it be easier if they had to do more work?
Is there a reason you don't go into teaching if you think the conditions are overly generous?
@mskeggs: Most people are not suited to teaching and/or not very good at it. And that includes many in the profession.
Its not that I think it is overly generous, it is that almost more than any other profession you constantly hear them complaining about stress. We all (or nearly all) have plenty of that in our jobs. In my own experience with close family members who are teachers (good ones too) they very obviously have a lot more leisure time than the rest of us. Their workplaces have plenty of politics and a fair amount of toxicity, but again those are issues in almost any workplace.
I'd also add that teaching is one job that is pretty much recession proof, whereas for many there is the risk of redundancy if the economy goes downhill for a while. Again not a reason for them to claim they have it tougher and everyone else.
@Brianqpr: The vast majority of teachers are from a certain side of politics. The ones who have never done a hard job for terrible pay will never understand.
Government jobs are kind of recession proof. That's why people like them. Keep your head down, shut up and take the money.
@OBEY YOUR MASTERS: In NSW at least student teachers can often be employed as teaching assistants, making the extra year a bit more palatable.
@mskeggs: How exactly does that work? If you get employed as a teacher's assistant do you still have to attend lectures etc?
@OBEY YOUR MASTERS: I think you work a couple of days a week during terms time and uni the rest of the time.
An acquaintance who was doing it said they earned about $30k over the year, but I don't know the details.
@Brianqpr: Again, your arguments presume people are queuing to go into teaching, so making conditions worse is not a problem.
Yet you yourself admit many aren't suited, so lowering benefits is likely to make recruitment harder.
@mskeggs: There are problems with the system for sure, many of which I have discussed in other posts. But like I said the system is run by teachers and teachers are the hierarchy. They need to change the system. There are many in the system that are brushing the problems under the rug to protect their relatively high salaries. These problems will never be addressed because it's not their style of politics and not their world view I guess.
It's not worth me going into huge detail because I'd be repeating myself and starting another gigantic conversation branch again.
the system is run by teachers and teachers are the hierarchy
I think the Heads/Principals have a lot less say in matters than you think. The decisions are made above them, and really everything just comes down to juggling funding and inclusion. The bar to receive extra funding for children who may have learning difficulties is quite high, and in some cases go unfunded because parents cannot afford the cost of a specialist to get an official diagnosis to tick a box. This just becomes the teachers problem.
@mskeggs: Its not really about recruitment, its more the constant complaining that it is so hard compared to other jobs. Say these things often enough and it will turn people off, even if it may not actually be true.
Came online just to say that this is probably the most misinformed and dumbest comment I've ever come across.
What most people don't understand is in December and January you get more leave than almost anyone else gets for a whole year.
..It's not leave, they are still working, just not teaching.
Then you get more leave in another 3 months that nobody else gets.
Again, it's not leave. They are still working…
Speak to a 25-year-old teacher who has only ever known teaching, and they will tell you how hard it is.
You will find some senior teachers DO have the ability to take the school holidays off, ONLY because they have put in the time and effort through their career to develop the activities and classes already. It's not a given.
So its just poor time management that's the issue then?
So how does anyone who has only known teaching know how hard it is in comparison to other jobs? They don't because they can't possibly know this.
As I've mentioned above I have close relatives who are teachers. They absolutely do not spend much of the school holidays working and are usually home by 3pm on days they are at school.
In order to match the hours of an average non teacher, they would have to do the equivalent of 8 weeks full time work during the school holidays and 2-3 hours per evening after getting home on days they are teaching.
@Brianqpr: If it's that easy I'd highly encourage you to become one. And then you'll see how demanding it is.
Let's be honest, in most office jobs. You spend 3-4 hours actually working (if that) and the rest of the 8 hours day fluffing about (talking, coffee, distracted, wasted meetings etc.). Whereas when teaching, you have to be switched on all the time for the kids.
@ricadam: That's a very sweeping judgement of office workers. How do you know this?
Meetings are part of a work day, regardless of how valuable or otherwise you think they are. Do you consider teacher staff meetings and/or pupil free days in the same way?
As I've said many times on here, most jobs these days are pretty demanding and more so than they were say 20 or 30 years ago. Everything is measured. That's true of teaching too, but I'm over the pretence that they are the only ones who have to endure this.
I don't need to become one, my relatives tell us all about their experiences regularly. They are stressed at work but so are most people. They are not stressed during the frequent holidays, especially in summer.
That's a very sweeping judgement of office workers. How do you know this?
Worked for a company whose job it was to know this kind of data. Interestingly enough, Government positions were around 2-3 hours or productive work per day.
@ricadam: Now its narrowed down to government positions, nice backflip.
While every last second of classroom time (which isn't much more than 3 hours a day anyway) is 100% application and "productive work" by teachers? Certainly wasn't the case when I was at school! In fact its proven that the mind cannot concentrate at that level for long periods of time.
Now its narrowed down to government positions, nice backflip.
Want me to do a front flip? Both are true, the data that we had showed Non-government office workers had 3-4 productive hours while government was less 2-3 active hours per day.
What most people don't understand is in December and January you get more leave than almost anyone else gets for a whole year.
B.S.
Friend of mine worked for Freightcorp, once a division of NSW railways. He had 4 weeks annual leave, a 9 day fortnight fortnight plus public holidays. Worked out to be 10 weeks and 3 days off a year.
This is still less than teachers get though… so what point are you making here?
This is still less than teachers get though… so what point are you making here?
If you don't get it there is no point in me explaining it to you.
9 day fortnight is just compressing 10 days work/hours into 9 days, it isn't a free hit.
Is that why there is a chronic shortage so many teachers are leaving the profession never coming back? They leave because it's too easy and wanna work extra hard like you hey.
It would be interesting to see how they find whatever job they go to instead.
Not denying it can be a tough and stressful job, but that applies to most jobs these days.
I get the sense that there's a perception in our society that teachers have really great perks (shorter days, more time off) in their job.
Being honest, before I personally knew people who had entered the workforce I found that easy to understand based on my experience attending school.
After hearing a few stories I did some looking into some data about the field and was horrified at what teachers have to put up with in their job. It's become incredibly frustrating to hear such dismissive rhetoric such as this thread (and others like it).
Speaking of time-off and "pupil free days", when you consider it against the actual requirements of the job (non-contact hours and administration time) it's vastly lacking:
Over the period from 2019 to 2022, the full-time and part-time teacher workforce reported working more hours than contracted each year, despite a gradual year-on-year reduction in average hours worked since 2019. In particular, the average hours worked amongst the full-time teacher workforce declined from 58.7 average hours per week in 2019 to 53.7 average hours in 2022. The full-time teacher workforce reported working 155% of a standard working week in 2019, decreasing to 141% hours in 2022 – equivalent to an average, 5 hour per week reduction over a 3-year period.
This doesn't even factor in the nature of the work can be inherently risky. Early childhood educators frequently end up with chronic back injuries, or even in some cases educators are subject to threats of physical violence from parents and pupils alike.
I'm sure it can be a rewarding job, but you could not drag me into a classroom even if you double my annual leave each year.
I know a few teachers and they all work long hours, often spending parts of their weekends and week nights planning lessons and activities, and marking work.
Personally, 10 weeks off at Christmas wouldn't convince me to be a teacher, let alone 5. A lot of them do it because they love to teach. They certainly aren't doing it for the 'perks'.
I agree, but also know some pretty hopeless teachers. Having a planning day gets those ones on the same page as well as the more dedicated ones.
Yes