It’s recently come to my attention that here in Victoria “the first day of Term 1 each year must be a student-free day in all government schools to allow for appropriate planning to take place for the arrival of students”.
Maybe I’m missing the intricacies of teaching but didn’t teachers just have 5 weeks of student free days over the Christmas break? What’s the go with this lark? Why is an extra day required? Do they really just take 5 weeks off and do absolutely no work?
Agree.
As someone with many teachers in the family, they absolutely do nothing over the holidays in many cases. It depends on the year level and subject/s though and how much the curriculum changes.
As with most work, careful choices and planning, and using your time efficiently, can avoid extra effort and hours.
Agree. Sister and brother in law both teachers. He in a high school, her primary. Endless leisure time every summer while the rest of us are working most of the time. When she was younger and single she had an amazing tan every year as she went to the beach nearly every day during the summer holidays.
The husband was home from work by 2.30 pm most days (school is local to where they live) when their kids were little. Unless he did 3 hours work after getting home (he didn't), not even close to the time average workers in other jobs have to put in.
It is what it is but the constant complaining about how tough it all is gets me. Every job has stresses. Many teachers, including my relatives, have not worked in any other profession so have no idea about working 8 to 6 for 48 weeks a year. They may do some work outside hours (sister in law a very organised person so probably does more than she needs to) but they certainly are not doing the 8 or so weeks a year worth of this that would be required to get them up to what everyone else in other professions does.
plan and spent time in class room start from next week buy off stuff done sent new years day depend on teacher stuff on wall dose not make it self every teacher i meet enjoy Xmas and new years maybe travel then after new years back on pupil free days are plan for school as a whole meeting for all different group plan out the year went sport days event active as whole school are planed out.
Can you repeat that in English please…
Going for the record of most pointless forum topics posted?
If so, it's going to take you a while fyi
Kinda feels like Ozb caught the dumb :(
I perceived the question above to be of a rhetorical nature.
Regrettably, many individuals find themselves financially burdened due to the concept of pupil-free days. In the past, one could simply send their children to school, where they would participate in activities with a few teachers present in the assembly hall. However, in recent years, this has evolved, and schools now close during these periods, placing significant financial strain on working-class families.
Pupil-free days, in my view, are not an essential element of the educational system; they are a product of union influence.
Furthermore, it is often challenging to find the right balance in communication. Write excessively, and one risks being dismissed with a "Too long; didn't read" comment. Conversely, providing too little explanation can result in being misunderstood by those with a more simplistic perspective.
This post appears to be a typical conversation starter, yet the original poster seems to have misunderstood the situation of how OzBargain functions. A more thorough explanation with at least 500 words would be necessary to present a well-rounded position. However, given that many in the OzBargain community are averse to lengthy posts, one might still face criticism regardless of the effort made. It seems one is damned if they do, and damned if they don't.
Individuals who fail to grasp the broader context in such straightforward posts are clearly ill-suited for participation in the discussions on OzBargain.
Yes, I think the average user on here engages with content in an appallingly tribalistic and superficial manner. I don’t understand why the initial pupil free day can’t just come out of the five-week Christmas break, considering there’s another 6 weeks of breaks scattered throughout the rest of the year. Then I’m copping flak for hating nurses? It’s unhinged.
In hindsight, using a phrase which could be construed negatively, even if it’s an obviously light-hearted phrase, was always going to set them off. You’re correct and you probably need to self-abase to avoid generating backlash from such people.
Welcome to OzBargain.
the original poster seems to have misunderstood the situation of how OzBargain functions…many in the OzBargain community are averse to lengthy posts…Individuals who fail to grasp the broader context in such straightforward posts are clearly ill-suited for participation in the discussions on OzBargain.
"Long time lurker, 1h 33m member", no?
@Thrift: I have been quietly observing for quite some time now.
I considered coining an additional acronym that reflects this recurring phenomenon, akin to "Another Day, Another Gift Card Story" (ADAGCS).
One cannot deny that the majority of disputes within the forum stem from this particular issue.
Username working well. AI too.
BTW if you had read the OP as his responses progress he moves from the initial derogatory imputation to complaining about the amount of holidays, then tries to peel back from that. It would matter what forum it was on, the result would be the same. With most respondents asking 'is the OP having a lend'.
"Individuals who fail to grasp the broader context in such straightforward posts are clearly ill-suited for participation in the discussions on OzBargain.
You have found the other end of the only stick here, well done.
@Protractor: I never complained about the amount of holidays, please refrain from telling fibs. If teachers only had a Christmas break, then you could make the case that all five weeks are required as a holiday. However, given they also have another 6 weeks throughout the rest of the year, I think it’s reasonable to expect just 1 week of the Christmas break to be dedicated towards preparing for the upcoming school year.
@CommuterPolluter: Which would still give them 7 weeks more free time than the average person who isn't a teacher.
I disagree completely.
In the past, one could simply send their children down the coalmines or up the chimneys. No adult supervision was needed, and it instilled in children the importance of a good 26 hour day's hard work, not to mention silicosis. Or possibly sarcoidosis. But never lupus.
These days, thanks to the wishy washy rules of civilisation and the pc complaints of "adults" that children were stealing little people's jobs, one has to somehow educate one's children while striving to accumulate as many possible goods as possible, bemoaning the current state of affairs, and haranguing the sad individuals who don't participate in one's echo chamber.
As for the damned, it is not for us mere mortals to determine who is and who isn't damned. In cases like these, we must always reclaim the words of that great leader, Sir Rhettus Butler, and not give a damn at all.
I’d argue they’re* the most pointless current forum member.
A few more ones like this and SlavOz will have competition
*I have a feeling calling them they’re / them will have the intended impact
*I have a feeling calling them they’re / them will have the intended impact
I don’t feel personally offended, if that’s what you meant by having an intended impact. However, l dislike when those such as yourself misgender people with the sole intention of being hurtful.
1680 deal posts and 441 competition posts over the time I've been on here…
Think you need to work harder on your comebacks
Absolute gold.
OzBForumPolluter is available. Maybe they can consider a username change.
Is The Swastika Now Considered Visually Offensive?
What do you think? I still think “Albanazi” was a fair criticism and the media did the union dirty whinging about it.
Maybe you should read some history and learn what an actual nazi was.
Maybe you should read some history and learn what an actual nazi was.
OP is driving a German car.
lol. “Fair criticism”
Is The Swastika Now Considered Visually Offensive?
The swastika is a sacred symbol in Hinduism that represents divinity and spirituality…
It is “ to allow for appropriate planning to take place for the arrival of students”.
With all the staff on site, able to work together uninterrupted.
Perhaps you should train as a teacher if you think the pupil free days are such a perk?
They're not working the preceding week.
As a parent of a teacher, yes they are working the preceding week, just not collectively together. Generally, pupil-free days are a chance for full day training/development days. Collective staff meetings to discuss the plan for the rest of the semester/year etc.
Another misconception is that they have more time off than other jobs. The majority of teachers still work during the school holidays (Planning, report writing, marking, cleaning etc.). They just don't have contact time with students.
@ricadam: Cleaning? report writing? come on.
Schools have cleaners, and if a teacher hasn't written reports by January they should be fired.
January they should be fired.
Report writing is usually during school term, obviously…
MOST school have dedicated cleaners. Other smaller ones rely on teachers. Also, the teachers are the ones responsible for the layout and fit out of their classroom.
One example was that my Mum was to move to a new class room that was a former computer room. You would imagine that the room was empty, but it wasn't. We had to come in after Christmas to move 20+ computers, desks and other equipment out of that room so that she could move in her things.
I'm actually surprised with the lack of respect people such as yourself have towards educators…
Other smaller ones rely on teachers
You are kidding right? Any union would have an absolute conniption if they found out a teacher was cleaning toilets.
Unless you are referring to a one teacher school in the middle Cape York, no, teachers do NOT clean schools.
@ricadam: My wife is a teacher, "looking after their classroom" is wildly different to "cleaning". You think teachers are whipping out the vacuum in week 0 and giving the room a once over? Wiping down the fans? Cleaning the louvres?
@811b11e8: Cleaners don't clean my desk, nor others. They clean the floor and empty the bins, that's it.
@ricadam: Not true of the ones in my family and they are pretty good at their jobs. They have a great old time during summer, don't see a lot of work. You know when they are actually working, because the complaining starts again.
Do they do the 8 weeks of full time equivalent work during the holidays to make up the gap to the 4 week holidays everyone else gets?
Another misconception is that they have more time off than other jobs.
Wait what??
lol, they have waaaaaay more time off than other jobs.
HA! What a foolish comment.
So who do you propose prepared the learning environment moved the furniture and ensured environmental print was on the walls prior to the students attending?
Lets not forget to include the planned the lessons for at least the first week.
They're not working the preceding week.
You say that, but ricadam says they are actually still working during the school holidays.
"Teachers should work on their time off"
bro, come on
@CommuterPolluter: You're saying they shouldn't work in their time off, but they should come in a week early, during their time off, to set things up?
I don't quite understand.
@OZKap: If that time is needed to prepare for the upcoming year it shouldn’t be scheduled as a 12th week of stand down but rather allocated to planning for the upcoming year.
@CommuterPolluter: Mate just stop talking. Your talking so much crap out of your ass with no first hand experience.
@no fruitz: Most teachers have no first hand experience of jobs where you only get 4 weeks leave a year.
@Brianqpr: If the leave of the occupation is so attractive to you, then what's stopping you from entering it? There is a significant under supply atm, I wonder why.
I mean this very genuinely, why did you not pursue teaching if you found it so easy?
I know plenty of teachers who enjoy their work life balance, but none who think they have an easy job.
My own feeling is there are a lot of blow hards who feel qualified to critique teaching because they went to school, in the same way they critique directing because the watched a movie. Yet when you ask them why they don't take advantage of what they say are overly generous working conditions, they can't answer.
Thing is very few jobs are "easy" any more. Teaching does not have a monopoly on stress or demanding work, despite what many of them seem to think. But you are at those workplaces 8 weeks less per year than most other people.
@Brianqpr: I definitely understand the longer school holidays versus most other jobs. Are you suggesting teachers don't include this when deciding whether to take up the career or apply for a job?
I used to work in a cake shop where I got to take home left overs quite frequently.
Does it follow I should work an extra couple of days for no more pay because I got that perk?
Do you think it is easy to recruit people into teaching and would it be easier if they had to do more work?
Is there a reason you don't go into teaching if you think the conditions are overly generous?
Came online just to say that this is probably the most misinformed and dumbest comment I've ever come across.
What most people don't understand is in December and January you get more leave than almost anyone else gets for a whole year.
..It's not leave, they are still working, just not teaching.
Then you get more leave in another 3 months that nobody else gets.
Again, it's not leave. They are still working…
Speak to a 25-year-old teacher who has only ever known teaching, and they will tell you how hard it is.
You will find some senior teachers DO have the ability to take the school holidays off, ONLY because they have put in the time and effort through their career to develop the activities and classes already. It's not a given.
So its just poor time management that's the issue then?
What most people don't understand is in December and January you get more leave than almost anyone else gets for a whole year.
B.S.
Friend of mine worked for Freightcorp, once a division of NSW railways. He had 4 weeks annual leave, a 9 day fortnight fortnight plus public holidays. Worked out to be 10 weeks and 3 days off a year.
This is still less than teachers get though… so what point are you making here?
This is still less than teachers get though… so what point are you making here?
If you don't get it there is no point in me explaining it to you.
Is that why there is a chronic shortage so many teachers are leaving the profession never coming back? They leave because it's too easy and wanna work extra hard like you hey.
It would be interesting to see how they find whatever job they go to instead.
Not denying it can be a tough and stressful job, but that applies to most jobs these days.
I get the sense that there's a perception in our society that teachers have really great perks (shorter days, more time off) in their job.
Being honest, before I personally knew people who had entered the workforce I found that easy to understand based on my experience attending school.
After hearing a few stories I did some looking into some data about the field and was horrified at what teachers have to put up with in their job. It's become incredibly frustrating to hear such dismissive rhetoric such as this thread (and others like it).
Speaking of time-off and "pupil free days", when you consider it against the actual requirements of the job (non-contact hours and administration time) it's vastly lacking:
Over the period from 2019 to 2022, the full-time and part-time teacher workforce reported working more hours than contracted each year, despite a gradual year-on-year reduction in average hours worked since 2019. In particular, the average hours worked amongst the full-time teacher workforce declined from 58.7 average hours per week in 2019 to 53.7 average hours in 2022. The full-time teacher workforce reported working 155% of a standard working week in 2019, decreasing to 141% hours in 2022 – equivalent to an average, 5 hour per week reduction over a 3-year period.
This doesn't even factor in the nature of the work can be inherently risky. Early childhood educators frequently end up with chronic back injuries, or even in some cases educators are subject to threats of physical violence from parents and pupils alike.
I'm sure it can be a rewarding job, but you could not drag me into a classroom even if you double my annual leave each year.
I know a few teachers and they all work long hours, often spending parts of their weekends and week nights planning lessons and activities, and marking work.
Personally, 10 weeks off at Christmas wouldn't convince me to be a teacher, let alone 5. A lot of them do it because they love to teach. They certainly aren't doing it for the 'perks'.
I agree, but also know some pretty hopeless teachers. Having a planning day gets those ones on the same page as well as the more dedicated ones.
So you think the conditions offered as part of a job you wouldn’t do are too generous?
@CommuterPolluter: The best ones need the holidays. It's long and tiring work if performed responsibly.
@CommuterPolluter: So you've moved from the student free day whinge to being pissed off about the length of their holidays.
And then you claim youre not being inflammatory, all while saying 'you have no problem with this, that and the other, while you pick a new fight as the thread progresses.
Tick tock quality dross.
@Protractor: You are clearly being intentionally obtuse and argumentative, which seems to be your personality.
The question has always been why is it necessary to schedule a pupil free day after a five week school holiday.
@CommuterPolluter: U seriously asking why they need a pupil free day after 5 weeks of school holidays???
Are u implying the 5 weeks they should work 1 day to plan the teaching/activities for the 1st week?
@CommuterPolluter: If it helps, just think that their holidays are 26 days instead of 25.
Genuinely curious what you do for a job and what sort of holidays you get/take.
@johnno07: Can you clarify what the 25 and 26 day figures refer to?
Normal private sector leave arrangements.
@CommuterPolluter: 5 weeks == 25 days of leave
5 weeks + 1 day == 26 days of leave
If you're OK with 25 days, I just don't see the issue with one extra day.
@johnno07: Well that argument is a little fraught because you could make it ad infinitum. And is it really that different then going the other way and saying 24 is basically 25?
I always thought that the length of the Christmas closure is for the children’s benefit, not for the teachers. Given that the school’s closed, if the teachers have nothing to do then let them have extra holidays - I’m fine with that.
I don’t really accept the premise that any school closure period = holiday for teachers at the expense of any admin work required to perform their duties. If they need a couple of days to get ready for the new school year, they should come in during the defined student holiday.
@CommuterPolluter: It's not ad infinitem. This whole post is about 1 extra day of holidays, with a healthy dose of… disdain for teacher's working arrangements.
It just seems like an absolutely non-issue to me. It's the same as any employment contract. You get X amount of dollars, for Y amount of time, for Z duties. You get 20 days of annual leave, but teachers get more days. The flipside of this is that teachers absolutely have a lower earning potential ceiling than a lot of private sector jobs. IMO it's also harder work than most private, white collar jobs.
If you want teachers to work more days, you should be OK with them being paid more. In the same way I would hope you'd advocate for a salary increase if your employer decided that any of your employment entitlements were to be reduced.
If it's such a good wicket, why not study to become a teacher? I know I won't be.
@johnno07: If you want to read distain into the post I can’t stop you.
There’s nothing wrong with teachers getting an extra leave day, provided it doesn’t come at the expense of students education, which is exactly what this particular pupil free day does.
When you have a mid-year pupil free day that cost is balanced by the fact that they get to do prep/training which they would not otherwise had time to do. In the case of a day 1 pupil free day, the time was available, but a decision was made to rob Peter to pay Paul. I think that’s silly. Jurisdiction’s such as Queensland and South Australia don’t have this practice presumably for that very reason.
Are Teachers Having Us on…? What’s the go with this lark? Do they really just take 5 weeks off and do absolutely no work?
Reading disdain into your post is not exactly difficult.
There’s nothing wrong with teachers getting an extra leave day, provided it doesn’t come at the expense of students education, which is exactly what this particular pupil free day does.
"Expense of students education". Talk about hyperbole. Who's having us on now? If you believe that any one particular day of school is that meaningful, you don't remember what school was like, nor what it meant to be a student.
Are Teachers Having Us on…? What’s the go with this lark? Do they really just take 5 weeks off and do absolutely no work?
Reading disdain into your post is not exactly difficult.
It’s clearly not disdainful. If it were, the second sentence would use a more serious word than “lark” and the third sentence would not indicate my disbelieve at no work being done. Again, I really can’t stop you from choosing to read that into it.
"Expense of students education". Talk about hyperbole. Who's having us on now? If you believe that any one particular day of school is that meaningful, you don't remember what school was like, nor what it meant to be a student.
Well it is reducing the length of the term and taking children out of the classroom. Arguing that it’s only one day who cares is really just inane, you can make the same claim about it coming out of the teachers’ 5 week holiday.
@CommuterPolluter: If you can't beat them, join them. I'm sorry you are likely back at work after a few days off over Christmas. Time to make some better life choices.
If it’s any consolation I am quite sure you would never be accepted into med school.
Plus, they can't really take proper holidays during the school year until long service leave. Imagine only being able to travel during peak travel season while also being heavily underpaid.
Imagine only being able to travel during peak travel season …
It's known as the peak travel season as that's when most people travel.
I take from that the fact that teachers are obviously no better or worse of than most people unless the travelling peak season is made up of only teachers.
while also being heavily underpaid.
They may not be paid what you believe they should but you can't honestly say they are 'heavily' underpaid ….
eg Daily rates for casuals
Casual Teacher 1 $452.85
Casual Teacher 2 $507.81
Casual Teacher 3 $565.42
First year out of university $87,550pa
Principal $222,752pa
Just a few cherrypicked examples. (from the NSW Gov't site)
Everybody travels during the peak season. That’s why it’s the peak travel season.
Public school teachers in Vic start on 80k going up to 120k. Both figures are much higher than the median income for full time workers in Victoria.
You can't just compare to full time workers; You need to compare with other professional workers. Bonus if you compare how other professions doesn't top out at $120K. The other people can take annual leave and pull kids out of school early to travel. You can't do that as a teacher.
@microsnot: If you take a look through the linked document you may notice that pay rates for nurses (ie tertiary educated professionals) top out quite quickly - unless the individual progresses into other areas/roles/jobs.
They take on very different roles and responsibilities with different levels of skills being required - ie they move into a new position.
Nursing Pay Rates - not current
Pretty much every 'professional' job requires people to keep learning to keep up with changes. eg a GP has to keep up to date about new diagnostic techniques and new medications, but if they stay a GP they don’t get paid any more for it no matter how long they do it. Its only if they update their job to a higher level one that they get anything more.
The problem many teachers have is that they stay as classroom teachers essentially doing the same job.
Heavily underpaid? Its certainly not a job i would enjoy with the behaviour of some kids and parents but i think the income is acceptable especially when you look at the average wage in Australia in comparison.
they can't really take proper holidays during the school year until long service leave
Not sure which schools can’t, but my kids government school teachers have taken holidays during teaching periods where his class was filled with a substitute teacher.
Another perk they get is long service leave accrual. Doesn't matter if they contract at different schools (private or public), this all contributes to their long service leave. So they can work in private schools and still be covered under a federal scheme.
Total lies. Im in SA, still contract after 10 years and have accrued 0, zero, nil, zilch LSL
Must be a Queensland thing then.
So they can work in private schools and still be covered under a federal scheme.
So do many government jobs, it's not unique to teachers.
Incorrect. Private and public are two different systems, they don't accrual
Doesn't matter if they contract at different schools (private or public), this all contributes to their long service leave.
Completely wrong!
I used to share a house with a young high school teacher, now I know why she hardly got out of her room when she got home.
A lot of them do it because they love to teach. They certainly aren't doing it for the 'perks'.
I completely agree that a passion for teaching is essential - doing a job you dislike just for the perks would be pointless and unpleasant.
However, if the perks aren’t a priority, why is there such strong resistance to the idea of using just one or two days from the substantial time off to prepare at school before the students are due to return?
Even posing the question seems to be too much for many to bear.
jv on 06/01/2025 - 20:54 Comment score below threshold.
