It’s recently come to my attention that here in Victoria “the first day of Term 1 each year must be a student-free day in all government schools to allow for appropriate planning to take place for the arrival of students”.
Maybe I’m missing the intricacies of teaching but didn’t teachers just have 5 weeks of student free days over the Christmas break? What’s the go with this lark? Why is an extra day required? Do they really just take 5 weeks off and do absolutely no work?
So they can work in private schools and still be covered under a federal scheme.
So do many government jobs, it's not unique to teachers.
Incorrect. Private and public are two different systems, they don't accrual
Doesn't matter if they contract at different schools (private or public), this all contributes to their long service leave.
Completely wrong!
I used to share a house with a young high school teacher, now I know why she hardly got out of her room when she got home.
A lot of them do it because they love to teach. They certainly aren't doing it for the 'perks'.
I completely agree that a passion for teaching is essential - doing a job you dislike just for the perks would be pointless and unpleasant.
However, if the perks aren’t a priority, why is there such strong resistance to the idea of using just one or two days from the substantial time off to prepare at school before the students are due to return?
Even posing the question seems to be too much for many to bear.
I wish you were a teacher or a nurse OP. I really do.Putting up with the quality of todays kids with shite entitled parents is a class act. Begrudging a day where they actually do work related shit without tomorrows anti-christs is low-balling at it's peak.
I'm guessing simply by your dismissive attitude teachers just 'lurve' your perfect special little angels.
The idea that teachers are entitled to a five-week holiday, which is absolutely and totally quarantined from planning for the upcoming year, is a strange idea to me
It's annual leave, but this doesn't mean teachers aren't doing some prep in this time.
Some are moving schools - always done during school holidays; whilst others anxiously await news of possible employment for the following year. Hard to plan when you don't know whether you will have a placement, or what age group, whether it will be full time or part time.
Not all children ,just the poor little buggers that (through no fault of their own) whose parents blame teachers for their own poor parenting. A now too common condition.Now this.
Candidly I also feel sorrow for the kids whose parents have your attitude. I lumped (your term) nurses in with teachers because 'candidly' I find both are the most precious ppl we are privileged enough to have looking after us and our kids. I actually pity you,merely based on the outrage you have generated enough to post a complaint about a student free day.
"Come at the expense of the students education." Says you. Exaggeration much?
Also review how inflammatory the title of your thread is.
"Come at the expense of the students education." Says you. Exaggeration much?
I don’t have an issue with pupil free days per se but having a mandatory pupil free day directly after 5 weeks of pupil free days is rich.
The title isn’t inflammatory you’re just inflamed.
If a child's education is ruined because they've missed a single day of each teaching year, perhaps there's a bigger problem at hand.
Kind of irrelevant, but now you've mentioned it. Nurses whine just as much as those entitled kids. If spiteful had a job, it would be in nursing.
I can see that in some aged care settings, but the rest of your comment sounds,smells and looks like this post. A grudge.
Gender equality targets would do some wonders in that industry. Job tends to attract particular types types of women more than others. Observation doesn't require a grudge :) pretty observable in university cohorts and if you've ever heard the conversations away from patients. You can do good work and be a horrible person, both can be true. Maybe those are just the types that thrive in nursing careers.
Stats are pretty clear too:
"Participants identified perpetrators of bullying/harassment as registered nurses (56.6%), patients (37.4%), enrolled nurse's (36.4%), clinical facilitators (25.9%), preceptors (24.6%), nurse managers (22.8%) and other student nurses (11.8%)
"Bullying in nursing remains an unacceptable international phenomenon and one that is widely reported in the literature."
I also find the self perception of nurses that they are above doctors strange. Especially considering they did a 3 year degree with a low barrier of entry (OP15/ATAR65) and if they flunk that they can go through TAFE paths… Sure, most aspects of patient care they are more equipped but are eternities away in intellect from the doctors they whine about.
@Juice-Wa: ("I also find the self perception of nurses that they are above doctors when they did a 3 year degree with a low barrier of entry (OP15/ATAR65) and if they flunk that they can go through TAFE paths…")
Looks far too much like a personal investment to me.aka grudge.(bullied?) (intern?)
I can't think of a single workplace I have been in, where bullying was not a common factor.In fact in one role new employees did the usual corporate training on bullying bla bla bla, what to do, how to identify,cope etc. Funnily the trainer said so rife was it, and so complex to deal with, we were advised it's more often better to move on ,to a new job if necessary. If there's a rise in the number of bullies within nursing,it will be similar in other roles. And I'll bet since the rise in social media it's a plague compared to pre social media, and influenced as well by a burgeoning population that adds so much strain to the healthcare system, everyone is burning out.
@Protractor: I'm an engineer, if you knew anything about either profession you would know there is a lot of mingling between the cohorts in uni. We're weird and they're spiteful, fun in uni. In real life, with real responsibilities, it's often why you won't see many engineers marrying nurses. It definitely not learned behavior from being hardened by a difficult industry.
The stats confirm what is observable, I'm not sure why you lean so hard into willful ignorance. Might know some nice nurses, might have a family member RN who couldn't do wrong, or might just be on the same level of spite with minimal self-reflection.
@Juice-Wa: Mingling at uni.yes that certainly trumps a lived multi generational experience in and around exposure to nurses as nurses . Apologies for my wilful ignorance of trusting what I see know and confirm through a large network of people who also observe similar outcomes. But then again, as each generation goes buy, the input quality has faded to a low ebb of quality as far as suitability,work ethic and ability to work as a team.
I've worked in mining a fair bit.I expect if I did a survey on mining engineers I'd find the same % of bullies and AH in that cohort, but hey, who cares?
@Protractor: Bullying in the mining industry is a problem which receives a lot of media attention (doesn't point fingers at job descriptions for perpetrators though), I've not defended that. In fact I've seen lots of bullying from the old guard engineers who think their experience entitle their behaviors. At least they're being phased out with the furniture.
Difference here is that there is clear literature saying, statistically, nurses are bullies:
"Bullying in nursing remains an unacceptable international phenomenon and one that is widely reported in the literature."
You're taking a willfully ignorant position that it isn't true and any such view is nothing but a grudge.
@Juice-Wa: I guess we should all be grateful that them nasty bullying nurses aren't forcing themselves on patients and workmates at alarming rates in other well known industries.Maybe that's why the headlines peaked in mining,eh?
I invite you (and other readers) to revisit your first comment about nurses to see why I would lean towards you having a somewhat over-invested observation gland of the nursing profession.
statistically, nurses are bullies
FTFY Some nurses (insert any alternative profession you want) are bullies.
You're more than welcome to send the study you linked,to one of the gutter journals of the mSM or any of Murdochs rags, I'm sure it will be embraced with more than open arms.You just need to remind them there's a nurses union, and bingo, "all nurses are bullies" .
@Protractor: Jeez, lots of emotionally charged conflation here. If you didn't show so much self interest in the topic I'd think it's just rage bait.
If you refer to above you'll see I said: "You can do good work and be a horrible person, both can be true." But I'm sure that in your mind you have merged utility with character.
FTFY Some nurses (insert any alternative profession you want) are
bullies
The numbers I quoted above (from research and education institutes) definitely aren't low enough to be described as "some". To me anything above 50% can be described as most (which it is). Maybe that's a bit harsh, but it's definitely above the realm of "some".
I tend to find it a bit interesting that the utility of nursing is seen as selfless and caring, which it is, but statistically nurses aren't selfless or caring in character at all. I wonder if there's some psychology behind it.
@Juice-Wa: ~50% of the 888 uni students reported various forms of bullying in the past x period.
= Most nurses are bullies.
Yep you're not conflating anything are you? How do you know how many of those incidents are not from a small pool of perpetrators?
There's more interesting psychology about what the real axe you're grinding is based on? Broken heart in uni?
lived multi generational experience in and around exposure to nurses as nurses
I think you've shown to have the closest emotional tie out of the two of us.
I'm just going to keep quoting white papers for you, because it's funny to watch it bounce off that thick skull and hear "you've got a grudge"
Also please look up the word conflation, it doesn't mean what you think it does.
@Juice-Wa: It translates to there are bullies who become nurses
Would you like to tell me that this does not apply to other workplaces too?
Bullies only ever become nurses.?
Significant = most,eh?
Coworker only means a nurse?
Try harder before you troll with the thick skull BS
And let's be realistic, the WFH generation,and beyond, won't be getting bullied.
That nursing student you were seeing in uni must have really done you in,good.
That nursing student you were seeing in uni must have really done you in,good.
thump
old man starts his morning with emotionally driven rage
because it's funny to watch it bounce off that thick skull and hear "you've got a grudge"
The predictability of your responses is starting to loosing it's shine now.
@Juice-Wa: starting to loosing concentration are we,old bean?
Have you put as much effort into the bullying and sexual assault report in mining?
Every stat you quote is on the receiver side of the study. x% were bullied. That does not equal x% of nurses are bullies.If the same individuals and cohorts are doing all the bullying, guess what. Like I said, you're too invested .Only you know why
starting to loosing concentration are we,old bean?
I mean, if you throw a rock into the water it's fun for a bit. Eventually it becomes the same thing over again and loses it's entertainment value.
Have you put as much effort into the bullying and sexual assault report in mining?
I'm the only one here acknowledging reported and documented issues. You're the one who wanted to talk about nurses in a discussion on pupil free days… Supposedly the angelic, selfless nurses who suffer the wraith of demon spawn patients. But the statistics are there to say they are their own worst enemy.
@Juice-Wa: Even your go to study fails to say whether there is a higher % of victims or bullies. This does not align with the claim MOST NURSES ARE BULLIES.
Coworkers does not just equal NURSE.
Bullies before nursing are still bullying in the workplace.Shock horror.
Most nurses are not bullies. None of your claims or links bothered to find out the number of bullies per study.Not the event numbers as claimed by victims and others.
I'm off to throw rocks in another pond.This one has frozen over.
I see you're an engineer- me too. My sister is a nurse.
The way I saw it was my training was really hard, but the job is kinda easy. Her training was really easy, but the job is hard. She doesn't get paid enough, is subject to bullying heirarchies (The bitchy clique wouldn't even look at her or say hello for months when she was new), patients routinely assault them (spit, punch, grab hair etc), she is at risk of movement injuries, and then the trauma of patients in general. She couldn't have done my degree, but I could never do her job.
I am of the belief that people generally move into vocations their character seems to already have a predisposition towards. Most of us engineers tend to be a bit different, if not on the spectrum, but our mind and though processes often to work very differently. Not all of us are like this, but if you're already like this it's likely that's the vocation you'll pursue. I'm not sure exactly why but nursing has tended to attract a large number of students you might describe as cliquey, catty, spiteful etc.
So say you suffer traumas like being severally underpaid, patients physically assaulting you etc. I would personally tend to sympathise and gather around shared trauma. Instead, you're now the cause of trauma in excess of patients. Be it "right of passage" or cliques why would yourself, as a nurse, want to be the biggest cause of mistreatment in your line of work? "Participants were asked about the source of bullying/harassment, via a list of those staff they would have contact with in the clinical environment. As can be seen in Table 1, registered and enrolled nurses were the main sources of such distress.". The leading cause of mistreatment in nursing, is nurses…
With stats like these, there isn't just a fringe in nursing that are the main culprits. They don't act like this because they have been pushed into it from trauma. There is a significant portion that exhibit and are reinforced in these predispositions.
tomorrows anti-christs
that made me giggle
Lucky you are not in NSW…. There are a bunch of student free days and then there is the two days for training…. So much for planning this during the real student free holiday breaks.
Nothing wrong with student free days as a concept. Just not sure why there needs to be one on the first day lol.
So they have all staff on campus as part of normal operating hours. You can't make staff come in during their annual leave.
If they put it any other time than the first day, you'd still complain. This is such a dumb post that needed less than 5 seconds of actual thought to have avoided posting. Are you just a parent who is bitter at having to look after their kids for another day and forgot to check the calendar for the most consistent day of back to school planning?
Why do you refer to the school holiday period as “their annual leave”? Others have claimed they are actually doing work during this period.
@CommuterPolluter: Years ago it was explained to a family member when they started teaching that, for each of the four term breaks, the first week was annual leave and therefore they were on holiday. The rest of the time they were to be contactable/available for work-related things ie pretty much WFH with no set hours or work requirements.
More recently the whole time away from school is seen as holiday leave because they deserve a break from the little darlings.
The usual critiscism is that non-teachers have no idea what is involved in teaching and the pressures - it's quite often seen that it's many teachers who don't realise the stresses, pressures and extra hours many other outside their jobs also have to handle.
@Grunntt: Yes I’ve been reading a bit since posting this and some of the comments seem a bit out of touch. I personally don’t mind teachers having a four week holiday over Christmas. I think they should be well paid and well rested.
It’s just a bit much when the school term is getting cut short because nobody could possibly be expected to come in during their fifth consecutive week of leave.
@CommuterPolluter: So what about the weeks between the 4 NSW terms? Teachers also take annual leave during the terms.
@AndyC1: There isn’t a mandatory pupil free day at the start of the other terms, only for the first term. This particular pupil free day is occurring after a 5 week long pupil free day.
Other mid-year pupil free days are more logical, as teachers need a break in the middle of the year.
@CommuterPolluter: NSW has the following:
Term 1: Varies between divisions.
Term 2: Monday 28 April and Tuesday 29 April
Term 3: Monday 21 July
Term 4: Monday 13 October
In S.A. we had to return for two days before students for meetings, whole school and sectional, then often teams in prep for the year's programs.
Most of the staff were onsite several days prior to;
- set up their own classrooms,
- book various facilities such as gym/class library access/computer studio/STEM room etc,
- and begin negotiating with Specialist Teachers and support staff(for student with Special Needs/ESL support/O.T etc)
This needed to be done before a timetable could be organised. Staff had to also negotiate with other staff for yard duty swaps, nominate for committees (required) and organise other staff to assist with extra-curricula offerings.
Sometimes there would be student briefings from the previous year's teacher, pertaining to social/emotional/academic needs. Likewise, there would be meetings with some parents and occasionally with a student who was new to the school.
Then finally, we would have to check the stationery/art order delivered during the last week of the holidays.
This needed to be completed before we attended to any lesson prep, prior to students setting foot in the classroom.
Thanks for your detailed comment. Although I have never been a teacher, I do appreciate there is much and varied administrative work which goes on outside the classroom as I have teachers in my immediate family. I guess I just don’t understand why the Victorian DoE doesn’t just have the teachers all come during the preceding week (which is currently week 5 of the school holidays).
It seems to me that it would be better to have all the teachers come in during week 5 and get all that stuff sorted, rather than have Monday of Week 1 a pupil free day. From your perspective as a teacher, is there anything fundamentally wrong with that - assuming teachers are appropriately compensated for coming in? Is the current arrangement born out of skimping on salaries?
assuming teachers are appropriately compensated for coming in? Is the current arrangement born out of skimping on salaries?
Teachers are salaried, the number of face to face days are set by the current E.B.
In S.A. there was a real fuss a number of years ago, when the Ed. Dept. was found to be in breach of the EB on this very issue. There was a lot of restructuring in our school, at the time to provide additional Non-Instuctional Time (NIT) to compensate for the excess hours being taught.
It seems to me that it would be better to have all the teachers come in during week 5 and get all that stuff sorted
Dude… then that week would be counted as a 'pupil free' week and we would still have you here complaining about why teachers need to have a pupil free week for admin and planning after having had four weeks of holiday.
That week wouldn’t be counted as a pupil free week because it wouldn’t be coming out of the established school semester.
Not sure about other primary schools, but the one in my area in northern suburbs of Melbourne, they like to have plenty of curriculum days and give the parents virtually no prior warning.
I'm fortunate in that I can easily organise care, but I feel bad for all the other parents that don't have much flexibility.
In Qld, public school teachers return to school for the last two days of the Dec/Jan holidays to prepare for the new term/year and training.
Yeah I guess I’m wondering why they don’t do the same here in Victoria. That sounds heaps better as they aren’t forced to cram everything into one day.
If they are compulsory work days then they aren’t holidays.
It’s a holiday for the kids.
Are Teachers Having Us on with Pupil Free Days?
By the way, teachers have no say in these days. The days are mandated by the Education Departments, the dates of some mandated, other dates decided by the school's governing council or local cluster of schools to suit planned/mandated T&D.
Teachers have no input to the timing of Student Free Days, and are not sitting around having coffee, doing nothing.
We really need to stop these stupid posts. They are just trying to troll people. I would think we are better than this.
I think it’s a reasonable discussion question to ask why a pupil free day is deemed necessary after 5 weeks of school holidays, and why the preceding 5 weeks can’t be allocated to prep work. It’s disappointing that there is a certain contingent of users who feel the need to engage negatively with any forum topic that comes along.
You might want to ask yourself if 54 comments arguing about Woolies Australia Day merch was the best use of your time.
Do you prep for your Monday work/task for your employer on Sunday?
I’m not suggesting that teachers work on Sunday. Do you actually have a serious answer or are you just looking for an argument?
@CommuterPolluter: What do you think Sundays and annual leave have in common? Are you deliberately being obtuse or Just looking for an argument?
@Ughhh: We aren’t talking about Sundays we’re talking about 35 consecutive days away from students, in addition to 6 weeks throughout the rest of the year. It seems to me that 5 consecutive weeks over Christmas, plus the other 6 weeks, is a fair whack of time to do both planning and get a good 8-10 weeks of leave in.
If teachers are cutting into the start of the school term to “prepare” why cant they just prepare in the 5th consecutive week of school holiday instead?
@CommuterPolluter: Because it's annual leave…. Doesn't matter if it's 60 days or 1 day. It's up to the teacher to decide whether they want to work during annual leave or not.
It’s not annual leave, they only get four weeks of annual leave the same as everybody else.
Why do you think it's only 4 weeks? If it's not annual leave then what is it? You are aware people can have different entitlements and conditions to yourself, right?
@Randolph Duke: Why the nasty attitude? It’s public information.
https://www2.education.vic.gov.au/pal/annual-leave-teaching-…
@Randolph Duke: It’s not :)
I’d rather people engaged with the question but unfortunately very few people are willing to do that.
You might want to ask yourself if 54 comments arguing about Woolies Australia Day merch was the best use of your time.
How many of those 54 were during work hours lol 😆
I bet OP has shitty kids and just wanted to be rid of them an extra day.
I don’t have any children going to public school in Victoria lol.
Sounds like you don't have any kids
PO's entitled, probably scoring govt aid to use a private school. Doesn't like the idea of parenting on days he has outsourced the responsibility to teachers.OP's money and time is more important than yours,mine anyone's.
It’s weird that you’ve concocted such an elaborate fantasy in outrage because I’ve asked the question of “what can’t the fifth week of school holidays be used to prepare for the upcoming school year?”
@CommuterPolluter: Not quite as weird as continually trying again to rewrite your own words They're all there, I'm not cutting and pasting to help remind you. Just review your own comments.Hint, count the negs.
Shitty kids often have shitty parents…
It's been a while since I've had to use my daily quota of neg votes in one post. I'll be back in 24 hours to comple the task.
Got a good chuckle out of me.
Maybe when a post is awarded x amount of negs in a nominated (short) period of time we get a recharge of neg votes.If they also run out in the same time period, the thread gets closed.
Or better still a report option of dead set shite thread, whereby if a repeat offender crosses that line 3 times,in total, they can't start a thread for 12 months.
I thought the cap was 5 per day, happy to see it is 10.
Platinum membership to unlock the extra neg votes.
Enjoy your extra day off before school starts again. What grade are you in now, have you made it past the 6th grade yet?
Are the teachers in VIC even paid to do work on the prior weeks? Maybe the VIC education department doesn't want to start paying till that first week of the term, in which case, a pupil free day on the first day is highly reasonable.
Yes. Full time teachers are paid all year round and even over the holidays. She is already starting to prepare for the year ahead, albeit from home. But she will be going into school a few times ahead of the year to prepare and be ahead within her classroom prep.
Heck, I have even gone in with her to help set up and decorate the classroom.
Source - My Wife is a Victorian Teacher
Thanks for advising. Is this public or private?
My wife's an early learning educator who runs a specialised art program for the centres she works across. I've had to go help out a few times myself so I can understand your situation… though, in my case, wifey isn't paid if she's not at work and all the hours of prep work she does at home is entirely unpaid (thus why I was curious if full time teachers are paid over holidays).
Public.
@geekcohen: A system OP has admitting having no kids in, therefore no viable reason for this thread or the baseless trolling whinge about all things teacher. OP is probs a janitor wannabe
Source - My Wife is a Victorian Teacher
You couldn't nab one from the current era?
Hahaha. My wife did do some intern work at Sovereign Hill whilst studying in Ballarat.
What about contract teachers? It seems like their payment date begins first week of term and goes until the last day of school.
Depends on the contract but generally annual leave for the summer break is on accrual basis. So if you work all 4 terms you should be paid the entire summer break.
There are however some scummy schools which intentional make the contract end on the last say of term 4 and get no leave entitlements.
A commentator above said during Xmas holidays is annual leave, is this correct?
Looking like the most likely explanation. That would suggest the State Govts approach to funding education is basically “if we make you work less can we pay you less?” which is…. disappointing
tell me you've never been, or known a teacher, without telling me.
If you really think teachers clock off at 3PM then I got news for you.
They should get hazard pay for having to deal with all the germ infested brats parents just dump on them as if it's daycare.
If you really think teachers clock off at 3PM then I got news for you.
100% and if you think that teachers clock on at 8:45am (or there abouts), that isn't true. My wife leaves home at 7am and is at work by 7:20am. She is the first there almost every day. Most teachers are required to arrive and be there by 8am.
Not sure why the neg? Just adding to what coffeeinmyveins has said.
Not quite right about required arrival times - at least not for Vic for teachers under the Victorian Government Schools Agreement 2022.
They are required to be at school no less than 10 minutes prior to their first class. There may however be other duties that a full-time teacher may need to undertake outside those times.
Finish work at 3pm? Surely this is a troll comment? This isn’t “why do teachers only have a X hour school day” this is “why is a pupil free day scheduled for the first day of class?”
Some work all the way through to 4:30 or even 5pm!
100%, my wife is at work/school until 5pm most days. So from about [7:20am[(https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/887818?page=1#comment-1613…) until 5pm, plus then hours at home. It is a long day.
If the conditions and pay are so good, why is it so hard to get enough teachers?
It's not hard to get enough teachers in areas where teachers want to teach. There are people still competing for jobs.
Perhaps the more remote locations are struggling to get teachers but I think there are certain perks for teaching in some of these areas too.
I would genuinely like some real data on this competition for jobs because there are a number of reports out there saying headmasters having difficulty filling their rosters. The gap between the increase in teachers and the increase in population seems to be widening. The number of teachers who stay in the profession for short periods seems to be increasing. No young person I know is going into teaching and the older ones I know will retire in the next few years.
There are perks in some remote areas but there are also a lot of disadvantages to being remote from the city. Far from hospitals, entertainment, public transport, etc.
Must be a Queensland thing then.