It’s recently come to my attention that here in Victoria “the first day of Term 1 each year must be a student-free day in all government schools to allow for appropriate planning to take place for the arrival of students”.
Maybe I’m missing the intricacies of teaching but didn’t teachers just have 5 weeks of student free days over the Christmas break? What’s the go with this lark? Why is an extra day required? Do they really just take 5 weeks off and do absolutely no work?
This comment comes off as a bit racist. What’s wrong with foreign teachers? The best teacher I ever had was an immigrant.
This comment comes off as a bit racist. What’s wrong with foreign teachers? The best teacher I ever had was an immigrant.
Looks like he/she wasn't that good, 'cause baby look at you now.
Its not racist - its a reflection of current government policies that fail to address inherent failures in the system except to import foreign labour. Many of these are coming from UK, Ireland, Canada, India, HK, Malaysia etc.
It's not about race and using that as an excuse is a cop out and shows a gross lack of understanding for the industry and issues.
You are asking non Australian trained staff to deliver Australian curriculum to Australian students for Australian outcomes. The impacts on students is immense. They suffer when teachers fail to grasp local language, nuance, issues, social and cultural matters etc. For the same reasons you rarely see Australians teaching at non International schools overseas and why they struggle in UK schools - It's not the same.
There is no teacher shortage. That implies a lack of trained teachers. SA alone has over 39k registered teachers on the book but over 10k are not teaching anymore.
The government solution is to create more teachers. The public kick teachers saying we're lazy and must try harder. Meanwhile, we've woken up to the fact we can take our bat and ball and go play elsewhere
This thread right here is why, as a contract teacher (so currently unpaid, living off the money I squirreled away last year), Im applying for non teaching jobs.
Both my daughters are teachers. Youngest primary, eldest is/was a science (biology) teacher (24 years) and HSC marker. She quit her permanent position last and did casual teaching. Did 5 days a week at $564 a day.
Signed two 12 month contracts for this year. One 2 days a week at a selective high school and one 3 days a week at a special school. No lesson preparations, no marking papers, no parent teacher interviews. Just turn up and walk into the classroom.
Her husband was an AP at a primary school. He is now in a well paid corporate roil with NSW education dept.
Yes they are.
If the handful of pupil free days bothers you, then you probably should not have had children.
That's what the kids think
The expectation is that kids are taught at school during term time. Where would you draw the line? 4 day weeks, 3 day weeks? Occasional school opening?
Evidently at questioning the status quo.
These forum rants are getting dumber and dumber, holy (profanity). Only Jan and it’s already reached peak stupidity.
as an ex-teacher, holidays were time away from work, while pupil-free days were at work having meetings planning schedules and new management rules and procedures for the forthcoming term or semester - checking enrolment lists, who was going to be doing what, setting up electronic records systems some of which were new and hugely time-consuming - and maybe even some updated new training if there was time left over.
Holidays should be a time away from work. I just don’t understand why the entirety of the five week Christmas closure is considered by the majority of users here to be sacrosanct as a “holiday” for the teachers. Obviously teachers will need time to prepare for the upcoming school year and an appropriate amount of time should be provisioned. A single day clearly won’t cut it. Many claim they already do work during the period (although others such as yourself have suggested otherwise). I think it’s problematic that the current arrangement is basically leaving it up to the teacher to draw the line and determine how much of their “holiday” they want to “sacrifice”.
At the extreme, if you allocated the entire fifth week of the school closure period towards PD / preparing for the new year, there’s still four weeks of Christmas holiday left for the teachers (in addition to some breaks between each term). I don’t understand why 5 weeks holiday + a pupil free day on Day 1 is instead the most reasonable option.
Well it certainly surprised me how many pupil free days are tagged onto public holidays and normal school holidays and even during term time. I recall one month the school didn't teach my kids for a full 5 day week for the whole month. When the kids were young it meant my wife and I having to take significant time off during term time in addition to normal school hols to look after them and paying for expensive child care.
Unfortunately I work in the private sector so I'm used to working long hours, little time off and meagre pay rises where striking would achieve nothing whilst paying huge amounts of tax for my kids education.
I would have thought that spending a day during the 7 week summer holiday or the multiple 2 week holidays during the year could be spent preparing, but apparently not.
Then you have end of term parent interviews which can't be done after 5pm for some reason, so another pupil free day and a day off work to attend.
I would have thought that spending a day during the 7 week summer holiday or the multiple 2 week holidays during the year could be spent preparing, but apparently not.
Do you work during your holidays? And 7 weeks? I'm liking this kind of inflation.
And the 2 week holidays blocks are relief from face to face teaching, and I've addressed how many teachers work during this time in a previous comment.
Some teachers, especially those who are also parents, do take these 2 weeks as 'holidays', and simply work very long hours during school terms to ensure they can completely switch off.
Then you have end of term parent interviews which can't be done after 5pm for some reason, so another pupil free day and a day off work to attend.
Schools can't win regardless of when they schedule these meetings.
During school hours and parents complain about having to take time off work, reduced income for parents, lazy teachers etc.
After school hours and parents complain about kids missing extracurricular activities, family time etc. Never mind that teachers could also be parents and are affected by these meetings as either party.
If you feel strongly enough about the scheduling of events and pupil free days in your context, feel free to join your school's P&C and try to change it. The schools I've worked for collaborate quite well with their P&C, as it is bad for business (enrolments) if parents are unhappy and decide to take their kids elsewhere.
Some schools have the pupil free day to make up for staff working extra hours on such events.
After and before school events like band/sport practice, interviews, camps (which is a whole other can of worms) are a grey area for what is expected and what is not. Private schools can sometimes have higher expectations on staff as they tend to pay more, and state explicitly in job ads that they are expected to do things like Saturday sport.
My step daughter is a primary school teach and does long hours. She's will go in during her holidays to setup her classroom and will buy things out of her own wallet…
I still wind her up about only working 8.30am-3.00pm and having 12 weeks a year holidays.
I bet that's why she hates you
That’s a bit off-colour
And this whole post isn't?
Questioning the professionalism of people who sacrifice fame and fortune so that society can benefit.
And this bloke thinks it's funny to torment his step kid about it.
Wait until you hear about how every private schools has the entire week off for planning and development activities!!
You spend more money, but have your kids at less days of school. That's not value for money
You spend more money, but have your kids at less days of school.
Are those days the same though?
A friend's kids school hours are 8:30 - 3:30 whereas at the public school nearby they are 8:50-2:50.
That may be less days but 5 hours more per week would probably more than make up for it.
I have always thought that rationale was ridiculous, like students are machines that will remain 100% productive for that extra 40 minutes. They don't. Getting any work out of students after lunch time is a Sisyphean effort.
I think the idea is that teachers having PFD’s allows to better prepare school based systems to better educate students.
They have come about by Departments of education in consultation with unions as both see the benefits of this type of preparation before the school year or term starts proper.
It makes little sense to suggest that such school preparedness can happen when teachers are on holidays.
Haven’t read the comments and I’m not a teacher but I work in a school and that first day includes setting up the classroom and trying to put together as much resources or personalised student items as possible and really it’s not enough time to get everything done before students come back. Remember it’s usually a totally new class and sometimes room for the teachers and at my school everything gets stacked to the side for deep cleaning at the start of holidays so it all needs to be moved back
Yes, thats right, but usually the "first day" that is "pupil free" isn't used for setting up the classroom. My wife does that a week or two in advance and I generally go in to help. Moving tables, setting them up, putting chairs in places, moving stuff around the classrom, decorating it. My wife will start printing name labels and creating them in the next week or so, I also get roped into that with my Tech Skills and a bit of Photoshop.
The first day should be collobaration and planning, not classroom setup. But might vary from school to school.
You've caught us out. Now rather than whinge about us, join us instead.
We need more teachers. Maths is the best field of teaching. No marking stupid essays, no running around a field. Just standing at a board with kids in rows. Very little lesson prep, "Page 389, every second questions."
Lots of holidays and not bad pay.
We don't need no edu-cation
We don't need no thought control
No dark sarcasm,in the class room………
This is the way. Check in with your peers for 15 minutes a week to make sure you're up to the same section at the same time. Job done, repeat next year.
What about bank holidays? Those poor bankers work so hard.
Have always thought that whinging bankers was a spoonerism
With teacher shortage comes high tern over of teachers. The pupil free day also gives new teachers opportunities to become familiar with the school without students and meet their new colleagues.
We also do a lot of printing for our classes, which cannot be done without being at school. We also prepare our classroom environment (although many teachers go in BEFORE the pupil free day to prepare their classroom).
There's a teacher shortage at the moment. Just saying 🦥
What don’t we have a shortage of? Wasn’t there a big stink about yoga instructors being on the list?
I mean, id argue it's a announcement problem, Just include the monday back as apart of school holidays, except for teachers… They get those extra holidays cause the pays crap and the conditions are crap. Outside of building sites where else can your day be interupted by 2 people having a punch on and yoir expected to break it up and deal with kids all day? I dont think 1 day is too much to ask…
Just include the monday back as apart of school holidays, except for teachers
There is probably some legal crap behind it. Which is why it is a "pupil free day" for Day 1.
Some jurisdictions do that. It’s still a bit silly to start the term on a Wednesday.
You realise the 4 weeks over the Xmas period is their actual accrued annual leave right?
I know it's hard for the uneducated to understand basic concepts, but teachers need a damn break to.
Like I always say to my mates that have a cry about teacher holidays - If it's such a great gig, go study for four years and join us! Funnily enough, none of them have taken it up yet (some even scoff that they'd lower themselves to such a crap career).
There's a reason why we have one of the highest attrition rates within the first 5 years of teachers careers… and it's not because it's a super easy job mate.
Right and they should be free to totally unplug during those four weeks. After those four weeks are up, the kids still won’t go to school for another week. So given that the teachers can prepare for the upcoming year in that 5th week of Christmas break why does the first day of Term 1 need be a pupil free day?
You realise the 4 weeks over the Xmas period is their actual accrued annual leave right?
I know it's hard for the uneducated to understand basic concepts, but teachers need a damn break to. (btw it's spelled 'too'. Hopefully you're not teaching English)
May be worth your while to read a little before you start insulting others.
From education.nsw.gov.au
Part 4.3.1.1
b). Annual leave for teachers in the Eastern Vacation Division shall be taken during the first calendar non term week of the summer, autumn, winter and spring student vacations….
Part 4.3.1.2
a) Unless otherwise required by the employer, teachers shall not be required to attend their workplaces during the non-term week(s) of the student vacation periods.
b) Teachers will continue to be paid for the non-term week(s), as appropriate under this section
So the weeks over Xmas are clearly not their accrued annual leave.
Right and they should be free to totally unplug during those four weeks. After those four weeks are up, the kids still won’t go to school for another week. So given that the teachers can prepare for the upcoming year in that 5th week of Christmas break why does the first day of Term 1 need be a pupil free day?
I would give up if I were you.
You made an arse of yourself by posting rubbish, so why keep proving it?
Ok boomer
Ok boomer
Now you have proved how big an arse really you are. Keep going, it won't be long before you are an elephants arse.
I am not a boomer, as I've stated here many, many times.
I'm sorry, I didn't know it was a sore spot. I shouldn't have said that.
I'm sorry, I didn't know it was a sore spot. I shouldn't have said that.
Ain't no sore spot here Princess and wouldn't be if I was. I'm proud of the generation I'm from.
@[Deactivated]: Good to see someone on here actually apologise for doing that sort of thing.
No idea why the response to this apology was to be insulted/attacked by the person the apology was for.
Definitely shows which of the posters is the type I prefer to see on here.
Why should they have to work over those five weeks? All the teachers I know work their arses off all year. Plenty of them work after school, weekends and during the breaks between terms, the generous leave doesn’t make up for it.
Anyway, what’s the big deal? They’ve given ample time for people to make arrangements. This just seems like pointless whinging.
Yes, they probably don't need that specific day and it could be organised for the Friday prior. I wouldn't be a teacher but if I was, I wouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth. Remember though that they contract for those holidays to not work i.e., the government doesn't want to pay them and doesn't expect them to work so we all pretend they can get everything ready in one day at the start of term. If they didn't get them that one day then a few stubborn teachers would literally come to work with nothing prepared to prove a point (as they should).
Yes, they probably don't need that specific day and it could be organised for the Friday prior. I wouldn't be a teacher but if I was, I wouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth. Remember though that they contract for those holidays to not work i.e., the government doesn't want to pay them and doesn't expect them to work so we all pretend they can get everything ready in one day at the start of term. If they didn't get them that one day then a few stubborn teachers would literally come to work with nothing prepared to prove a point (as they should).
Maybe you should find out what THAT day is for before you dribble nonsense here.
It's called Friday, sorry I didn't realise the education system had failed you specifically but then I shouldn't make assumptions about your level of intelligence.
They are still at work those days - it's not a work-free day, they use them for term planning. Teaching might be a nice job in the holiday break but it's a beast of a coalface job having to deal with that many kids and their parents, and deliver good outcomes.
I just wish there were more of them. Successful countries educate their kids to the hilt so they can build a reliable workforce. Unsuccessful countries erode education then rely on cheap immigration labor in a race to the bottom.
Dealing with the parents would be 1000 times worse then the kids - especially in primary, ESPECIALLY at a private school!
You've obviously never known a teacher. They work 10 hour days, 6 days/week with all of the crap they're overloaded with preparing lessons and marking. There's no way they can get it all done. So a single day off to plan at the start of a term is far less than they deserve.
nurses get 6 weeks annual leave in qld.
Teachers get 5 at the end of the year….are you really expecting them to work during their annual leave?
But did you know for some reason they don't get the easter public holidays and actually have to work extra hours throughout the year to make up for having that time off?
In between terms they get 2 weeks away from school, but a lot of it is spent marking, reporting, and planning….a few days there will be free time, so chalk up a few days……but then consider all of the unpaid overtime throughout the year, including late nights and weekends which do not attract any sort of penalty rates or get paid back in any way as time in lieu.
Also consider that teachers cannot take their annual leave whenever they want, it always must be taken at set times throughout the year…..peak holiday times.
On top of that, you get whingers like yourself OP who seem to be very brainless about it all.
If its such a sweet gig, go do the university course, get employed and live the dream!
…..with it being such an amazingly bludgey job, I wonder why so many people will spend 4 years studying, accruing HECS debt, to then go on and quit in their first couple of years and never return?…..madness.
R U OK OP?
If teachers offend you such, maybe start critiquing the other professions like nurses and police?
I’m sure they are overpaid and have too many holidays by your definition, and work too little?
Yeah copped a lot of flak but I’m okay, thanks.
I’m sure they are overpaid and have too many holidays by your definition, and work too little?
I don’t think teachers are overpaid nor that the 12 weeks associated with the school closure is “too many holidays” (it’s also not all holidays). I only think that this particular pupil free day is ridiculous because it’s coming on the back of a 5 week school closure, which could accommodate both a substantial holiday and a mandatory prep day (like Queensland teachers do).
For some reason many teachers seem to be very sensitive to anyone asking anything about their hours of work.
You asked a reasonable question and it's somehow been twisted into "I’m sure they are overpaid and have too many holidays by your definition, and work too little?"
I'm not sure how you managed to stay civil to many of the posters that decided to jump to the defence of these uniquely overworked/underpaid workers that deserve downtime more than anyone else.
For some reason many teachers seem to be very sensitive to anyone asking anything about their hours of work.
Same with year levels and subjects. Some subjects would be a lot easier than others.
All this talk of a 5 week annual leave holiday gives me a chuckle. I view it as 13 weeks of holiday because I count all non-term time as holiday.
Yes, I have to do some work (couple hours of marking and report writing here and there to meet deadlines) but for the most part, I’m flying overseas or interstate for a holiday.
Majority of the time, I don’t even touch school work between terms until I’m back in the classroom.
To answer your question OP, I honestly don’t know why it is how it is. It’s way above my pay grade but I think it would have something to do with how many contact hours is required by government policy and the school timetables around that. I welcome it because it gives me an extra day to sort stuff out before students come back and I’m glad it’s the Monday before school starts.
Also, it’s not just pupil-free day in term 1, it’s usually pupil-free day at the start of EVERY term.
What year level and subjects do you teach?
High school
All this talk of a 5 week annual leave holiday gives me a chuckle. I view it as 13 weeks of holiday because I count all non-term time as holiday.
Yes, I have to do some work (couple hours of marking and report writing here and there to meet deadlines) but for the most part, I’m flying overseas or interstate for a holiday.
Most of the teachers I know personally don’t do much work during the holidays either (but they’re all primary) but I hesitate to suggest it’s normal. What do you think of those who claim that teachers are doing a lot of work during the holiday period? Is it just thing where there is a lot of work for some grades/class/schools but not for others?
I also some reddit posts where teachers suggested that some are “over preparers” who spend a lot of their downtime lesson planning but didn’t necessarily get better results than those who don’t. What do you think about that?
I have been wondering if those who struggle with scrupulosity are in an unfortunate position of not feeling entitled to actually enjoy the holiday, because it seems like the DoE leaves it up to the individual teacher to draw the line.
At the school I'm at, we have teachers who come in on the holidays and start preparing, or during terms 3-4 breaks run classes for the higher year levels getting them ready for exams.
I understand it because it means they're ready for their classes but it gets on my nerves because it means I can't do the work I need to do (IT / AV)
It's Victoria, surely you're used to grotesque levels of government waste by now.
This is a fairly minor infraction in the grand scheme of things.
Parents were teachers and any break that you don't think they aren't entitled to is made up by the hours and hours of unpaid work they do during the terms.
There is a lot of nuances to this question. And contributions that could be made, many that already have been… what I can perhaps add.. is a thought.
There are questions or our own jobs which have perks, hard work and time off, starting early and late, work from home or abroad, only in the office, outside and inside, vital and casual… but what is maybe different with teaching… is that everyone feels they can judge teachers, that they know what the workload is like, what is 'right and wrong'
Most jobs fly under the radar, teaching is something that everyone has an opinion on, and like most public sector jobs (even if many teachers are not in the public sector) everyone feels they are 'paying' and so entitled to judge.
I'm not sure why this is a big deal.
They have to go in to their workplace (ie school), it's not like they are going to the pub or spending public money having a conference at a swanky hotel.
I imagine there are a lot of things to do before the pupils turn up.
Get briefed on the year ahead, be advised of any changes, meet new staff, be assigned new classes and classrooms, set up those classrooms for those classes, check equipment condition and stock levels, be reminded of first aid and fire protocols….
I’m a teacher in QLD. I work full time and yes, i get the “excessive” holidays everyone thinks are unreasonable and unwarranted.
My payslip says i get paid for 25 hours per week (remember I am a full time employee).
This equates to 5 hours per day. For reference, QLD schools are open for 6 hours per day of student contact.
So let’s say I should get paid for my actual contact hours where I am legally required to be onsite. My payslip should actually say 30 hours. A 20% increase in my wage. Sounds pretty good to me.
Now if you wanted to pay me for just a little bit of my preparation and organisation work, let’s say I spend only 30 minutes in both the morning and afternoon (before/after direct contact time). I might be preparing engaging lessons, marking student work, making phone calls to parents about behaviour or entering records about students progress, not to mention bus duties, impromptu parent conversations after school and yes, organising the classroom (not cleaning).
That would bring me up to 35 hours. That would be a 40% increase in my wage.
I wonder what the chances are of the government giving me a 40% increase.
Maybe the holidays make up for and justify the gross underpayment of teachers?
For all those yelling that teachers get paid well for their work and have too many holidays, I invite them to spend four years at uni and become teachers for the amazing salary and benefits!
Then you too can be in it for the money and holidays!
I just came across an old text book which I THINK was from my BEd, but more than likely from my LLB.
I thought it may show non teachers that there is so much more to being a teacher than delivering an antiquated horizontal, one size fits most curriculum.
TEXTBOOK: Law & Ethics for Australian Teachers by Anglin, McNamarra & Butlin 2021
TABLE OF CONTENTS
Introduction: Overview of the Australian Legal System
1. Duty of Care Inside and Outside of the School
2. Privacy Issues
3. Anti-Discrimination Within the School Context
4. Work Health Safety Issues
5. Orders and Parenting Plans Under Family Law
6. Child Protection and Mandatory Reporting
7. Suspensions and Exclusions
8. Criminal Matters in the School
9. Cyberbullying and Other Online Problems
10. General Ethical Responsibilities of Teachers
11. Professional Regulation and Teacher Registration
12. Disciplinary Proceedings Against Teachers
13. Protections Afforded to Teachers.
All that,
and edumacate a diverse group of students from multiple socio cultural and sometimes volatile backgrounds and environments, all of whom have varying abilities within one overarching curriculum-
and deal with the helicopter parents who think their child is the only child in a class of many and just won't disconnect from the teacher so she can get on with doing her job and answer all those damned emails that parents send Willie Nillie as the mood takes their fancy.
There would be high level executives on a bunch more money that would be expected to put up with less than the teachers do.
Just imagine the teacher in the middle of a child custody dispute where both parents want to pick child up but only one has legal custody at that time.
Imagine suspecting one of your students was being abused or neglected at home and every afternoon you had to let that child leave knowing it may be with those harming them.
In my day we did fire drills. These days there are full on lockdown procedure drills for gun and knife attacks.
Not to mention the negligence laws and the duty of care responsibilities you owe whilst supervising a bunch of boisterous students with eyes in the back of your head or hundreds at various points in the playground.
Just being on nit patrol, wiping snotty noses, detecting kids who are too sick to be at school, triaging nurse visits, knowing where all 30 kids are and/or with whom they are with every second of the day.
Crikey! Some days it takes every skill known to man to get all 30 of the little darlings to collect their library bags, stand in line, then quietly walk in line to the library to swap over their library books.
And swimming days! Try keeping that excitement contained and focused on class work until it's their turn to change into their swimmers, once again walk in a nice quite orderly line to the pool/bus (making sure they don't get run over if they need to cross the road, or bitten by a dog, don't trip on a tree root, don't scratch parked cars etc) to romp around in their utopian water adventure until it is time to leave, redress etc and get settled back in their seats to do work.
And then there's tuck shop. I mean, it really shouldn't be that hard to write your kid's order on a brown paper bag and stick money inside the bag, right? Incredible how many parents missed parenting class the day they taught that. The true classics are the ones who forget to write the child's name on the bag.
Many schools have even made it far more easy than that by providing a portal for parents through which they can order and pay for Johnny's lunch online… still kids coming to school without lunch expecting teacher to sort it out.
Then there are the ever increasing number of allergies our darlings seem to have. Gotta watch Jeremy doesn't share his PB sandwich with Jenny etc and god forbid the child who brought an unpeeled orange to school and their father gave them a knife to take to school so kid could peel orange! I promise you, I did not make that up.
Teachers even have to be the hat patrolman and sunscreen supervisor. No slip slip slap? No outside play for you today.
It beggars belief when you consider what the whole job of teaching involves, and people begrudge them longer holiday periods likening it to criminal behaviour should they dare take it.
- Duty of Care Inside and Outside of the School
- Privacy Issues
- Anti-Discrimination Within the School Context
- Work Health Safety Issues
- Orders and Parenting Plans Under Family Law
- Child Protection and Mandatory Reporting
- Suspensions and Exclusions
- Criminal Matters in the School
- Cyberbullying and Other Online Problems
- General Ethical Responsibilities of Teachers
- Professional Regulation and Teacher Registration
- Disciplinary Proceedings Against Teachers
- Protections Afforded to Teachers.
A University level textbook having 13 chapters isn’t amazing to me. Teachers aren’t required to be experts on this content either, just get a passing grade (50 or 60%). I would hope they know all of this AND MORE. Just like I also learned a lot of things to get my degrees.
I didn’t downboat you btw.
I dunno, I was a lousy teacher and I hated every second of it. Couldn't get out fast enough.
It’s not for everyone.
As I said elsewhere, I don’t have a problem with teachers taking off for 12 weeks a year and I think they should be better paid. I just think the Term 1 Day 1 student free day we have in Victoria is a bit of a piss-take
I'm a support staff member.
One of the first pupil free days, we do the first aid training (CPR, Anaphylaxis etc.) with on site training, then mandatory reporting & child protection. We might also have external parties come out and show us how to teach students (including the support staff) in different methods (one called Berry Street).
I thank you for your service to the children.
Personally I think you are doing the right thing. Parlay your experience into something like a project management job. Better pay, better structure and better appreciation.
The thing that I find extraordinary is what people who bag teachers think they will do if the flow of teachers stops? As people find there are better careers out there for them, and there is nobody left to teach the kids, then what are the options?
When we have someone on a forum bitching about one day to prepare the school for lessons coming up then we have reached peak petty.