New runout pricing for Excite 64. Same specs are base model 51 but a bigger battery (about 100km more range). Similar price cut of $10-11k like they did to the 51 base model.
Yes, we all know it's Chinese but it comes with a dealer network and long 10 year warranty.
Range of up to 450km (WLTP)
Its cheap. Not many ways about it. The cheapest corolla is $36k, going up to 43k…
Corolla now priced out of the market. Only time you see these now are government departments etc.
Or a Hire Car from Avis, but they may switch to more i30s?
@BewareOfThe Dog: Hire companies and government departments get them at commercial rate so I bet they pay way way less than that RRP
Toyota really screwed the pooch in recent years with pricing and car variations. Everyone else is out doing them in so many ways. Shame, but had to happen you can't always be the iPhone of a generation forever with huge price increases with minimal changes or comforts.
omg that is so BS…
in 2020 when i was shopping they were 25k drive away in manual guise. ZR variant was about 36k.
they actually were clearing out the sedan for 20k before the final model revision. I wished i has brought one then.
In 2020 when I was looking at real estate …
No this is an EV hatch
we mates only buy Toyota. We dont care get scalped or not. We so smart!
Seen a lot in the wreckers.
It’s usually a fairly simple calculation, WLTP x 80%. So in this case 360km. Nowhere near enough for this straight shooter.
500..in case you’re wondrin’
Oooo big man driving 500kms everyday over here
Are you planning the round australia trip for your retirement? Then perhaps not the best choice for you currently.
The average distance driven each day in the Australia is below 40km. ANY EV offering these days will work for 99.9% yearly use case.
@webmonkey: We will soon see really cheap EVs that only do 100-150kms but are priced around 20k- so cheaper than new ICE counterparts.
This is the reality.
@Crownie: I agree - I'd love to think we're gonna see these EVs but they're easily upgradable with modular batteries. So you can buy one cheap with ~150km of range but over time you can upgrade and/or replace batteries. I get that there are reasons why batteries are hard to replace these days but I'm hopeful someone will figure out a modular arrangement that makes it easy!
@trawg: If I was working for any car company, I will absolutely make sure that can't happen. U will bit into our margins yo.
@Naigrabzo: Why? You can make margin selling batteries. You can make more margin installing batteries and replacing them over time, as long as the battery price isn't a substantial percentage of an entire new car.
@Tleyx: When that happens your "fuel" cost for the trips will be a lot higher than the ICEs if you want that kind of convenience.
@webmonkey: … except for those "needing" to tow a horse-float for 1,500Km … nonstop … everyday …
:-p
@1st-Amendment: Clearly you are pretty below the average if you can't grasp the concept of average distance as a metric. Why don't you leave the discussion to people who are better than you little boy.
Clearly you are pretty below the average if you can't grasp the concept of
Well one of has failed to grasp this simple problem. But pride comes before the fall…
average distance as a metric
Which is not the problem little webmonkey. It's the misapplication of the average when it doesn't describe the nature of problem. That is the trap that fools fall into like you just did.
Let me dumb it down even further so that even a webmonkey can understand it. If I drive 20km/day for 3 months, then drive 800km once, I've averaged 29km/day. But even though I'm averaging less than the 40km/day which you think is some sort of magic threshold, I'm still better off with a car that can get me 800km, since the occasional long trip would be a huge inconvenience in a car that only gets 300km and requires hours to 'refuel'.
This is why averages are almost always used to manipulate fools. They look like one thing on the surface, but a little more digging usually shows a different picture.
Why don't you leave the discussion to people who are better than you little boy.
Pride meet fall, thanks for your contribution.
@1st-Amendment: Listen cooker.. let me outline it for you in simplest terms possible.
The distribution for the average travelled per day is skewed to the lower side, quite similar to the opposite where you think your IQ lies.
The average obviously doesn't account for the 1% of times where you might require more than 450km but most people don't buy for that 1%.
Of course not everybody is travelling only 40kms but the distribution is quite clearly to towards one side.
I get it, you travel 1000km a day and you need several ton towing capacity for your giant inflated ego. For the rest of us normal folk we will gladly do 1 to 10 times the average and still be fine in an EV on a single charge.
The distribution for the average travelled per day is skewed to the lower side
Citation required. Not that it matters, as I already demonstrated, my average falls under the 40km magical arbitrary number, but that average doesn't paint an accurate picture, as I also already deomnstrated.
The average obviously doesn't account for the 1% of times
So it's not an average then… This gets funnier than more you try to wiggle out of it…
but the distribution is quite clearly to towards one side
Citation required.
I get it, you travel 1000km a day
Reductio ad absurdum. Username is getting a workout today…
@1st-Amendment: Crawl on back to reddit you mutant.
You're the one coming into a thread about EVs claiming how inappropriate they are for everyone because they can't drive 800km once and would be better served with another vehicle. So much for "Reductio ad absurdum" Such an asinine position in the history of debate about EVs.
@webmonkey: You: You're the one coming into a thread about EVs claiming how inappropriate they are for everyone
Also you: ANY EV offering these days will work for 99.9% yearly use case
The comedy writes itself…
@1st-Amendment: How is this for a comedy:
You've seen it in the movies, a meek little nobody standing in bustling room. Suddenly he drops a few choice latin phrases and suddenly all is silent. The males around are taken aback and the women sheepishly adjust themselves as if the humidity levels have spiked sharply. Whatever this power, you want it; badly.
You look in the mirror and practice…
Stupefy! You call out.
Expelliarmus! Yes, you are starting to swell with confidence and try another.
Confundo! Nodding, you no longer recognise the image looking staring back at you.
Keep trying Harry, you'll get there one day.
@1st-Amendment: 1st-Amendment lives on here to troll. It's amusingly pathetic.
Also, Average could be refering to mean, median or mode. What he suggested is the mean, the actual statistic is the median (middle of a bell curve) and the mode will be likely similar to the median in this instance. Anyone with a basic grasp on statistics would know this if they're not trying to purposely obfuscate.
What he suggested is the mean
Citation required.
Anyone with a basic grasp on statistics would know…
…what a citation is… I'll wait while you produce one…
@webmonkey: This is the main point imo.
I do about 90km a day and this would work fine for me.
Currently do the odd trip that would go beyond that (2-3 times a year), and in those cases hiring a car might be more preferable to trying to structure a trip around it.
Definitely think for a two family household it'd a treat for one person to have something like this. Assuming it lasts and all that basic stuff.
This means not much difference from Excite 51 range with 100% charge.
@LPS
Would that be "straight shooter" or "high pollooter"?
Are you a busy uber driver….. or live in a remote area with the local shop 300Km away?
Some of us live in apartments and don't have the luxury of being able to charge it every night
@Rimas: I have to plan where and when to fill my car up with petrol. I have to drive to a destination and fill the car up. I can’t fill the car up while I shop either, or while I eat out.
@onlinepred: I don't have to "plan" to fill my petrol car up. A full tank's range is 530 Kilometres and it takes 10 mins max to fill it up from 0 to 100 percent, including queuing, filling, paying, getting back inside, buckling up and driving off. I can do that on my way to shopping and eating out. I would buy an EV in a heartbeat if I lived in a house but for an apartment dweller like me who drives 300 kilometres a week, a petrol or petrol hybrid makes much more sense
@Rimas: Yep if you don’t have any recharging spots at shops near you, that will not work. Especially if you don’t go out much. You could make it work and you could save loads of money too since you drive so much!
I have to plan where and when to fill my car up with petrol.
Do you? I've never once had that problem. I drive around for as long as I like and when the fuel light comes on a stop any of the numerous petrol stations that are literally everywhere, fill up and in 2 minutes I'm back living my life. The idea that you have to plan every trip and constantly watch your 'fuel' level with anxiety is an entirely newly created problem that has somehow been labelled as 'progress'. That's some great kool-aid you're drinking if you consider that to be 'progress'.
@1st-Amendment: Yea, I guess not everyone is willing to put a little effort into saving money? Who has 5 minutes to fill a car up with petrol, but doesn’t have 10mins to top up their car for 1/3 the price?
Haha..neither. I just seem to drive a lot. Between Syd, Canb and Bris. Nothing dubious 🤨 I actually find it much more enjoyable than flying.
@Lps: That makes it sound more dubious.
Tell us, is the drive more enjoyable because you aren't hiding things in your butt?
Or because you are?
@Lps: I've been doing some driving between Sydney and Brisbane lately and it's quite a good drive now. Once they finish Newcastle and Coffs bypasses it'll be an easy run all the way. I did it a few times years and year ago and the old road was a shocker.
the title isn't correct - should be Excite 64 for $34,990
So title says Excite 51 $34,990.
Shouldn’t the title be Excite 64?
It uses NMC battery
What’s the difference
not as resilient as the LFP battery, if you care about battery longevity the NMC battery is more prone to wearing out compared to LFP and if you want to maximise longevity you have to charge it to like 80% while LFP you just charge to 100% and no worries.
Lfp is worse is colder climates though
@dbmitch: I was considering this car and ski a lot so this comment helps! I guess I usually park in bullocks or at Thredbo where it isn't that cold
@Marjikins: I sometimes need to tow trailers, carting stuff here and there. For those times I hire a ute from Bunnos for $50. Every other day I drive something more practical, efficient and better suited to daily urban life. A slight strawman but it gets the point across.
Also, it'd still work in the cold, but you're not in the ski areas all the time. For the times you are, LFP would go okay. If you were in north Norway, maybe not.
Everything you say is correct, but for completeness I should mention that it seems even NMC packs will well outlive the rest of the car.
I've got 2 EV's, both with LFP packs. But I wouldn't hesitate to jump on an NMC based car.
I charge my car to 100%, just like I do with my phone, regardless of whether it has an LFP or NMC battery. The battery comes with a 10-year warranty, so if it dies, they’ll replace it. I paid for a 100% battery, not an 80% one.
If they don’t want us to charge to 100%, then they should advertise a lower range and leave the remaining 20% hidden, blocking people from charging the car to 100%.
@T-man: Be careful with that thinking, a friend of mine bought a secondhand japanese brand phev with a supposed 8 year warranty on the battery and battery capacity was well below the warranty limit. It was a major shit fight to try to get battery replaced and the friend had to pay a large portion of it. Yes it was secondhand but still should have been covered.
@T-man: Just out of interest. Would charging to 80% instead inconvenience you? Do you use more than 80% range often or is it just less plugging it in?
@bluey47: I travel between Gold Coast and Brisbane a few times a week, and between North and South Brisbane several times a day for work. I don’t like the feeling of range anxiety. Charging to 100% makes me feel more comfortable and means I don’t have to plug in as often, especially since I’m charging two cars at home.
The battery comes with a 10-year warranty, so if it dies, they’ll replace it.
You might want to read the writing on the warranty T&C's on the contract you signed.. Sounds like you are in for a surprise…
I paid for a 100% battery, not an 80% one.
Well according to the contract you signed, you paid for a battery guaranteed to only 70% capacity. Fools and money…
@T-man: I get what you’re saying but your attitude of car ownership would make you someone I would not like to buy a car from secondhand, ice or electric. Part of the reason vehicles are worth less secondhand is because of bad owner habits not just bad design. Just something to think about I’m not judging you.
@T-man: Warranty conditions usually say something like the battery has to have x% or less range of its original range before they replace the battery. So it could be that after 10 years the battery performs at 70% it's original and they won't replace your battery.
Also who drives 100% every day? just charge to 80% normally and if you need to do a long drive charge to 100% the previous day.
Not true. LFP shouldn't be charged to 100 percent regularly either. They only recommend it as they can't estimate range as well with LFP so they say charge it to 100 percent so they can recalibrate
NMC has cobalt so worse for environment but also should not be charged beyond 80% to maintain battery health.
If it is going to be a second car this battery provides minimal advantage over Excite 51 LFP that can be charged to 100% so you have to weigh up the extra cost/benefit.
Don't tons of lithium batteries typically have charge limiters as well? Like the iPhone does. Tesla has been recommending 80% charging in their cars for ages and I thought they were all lithium.
@trawg: It depends on the chemistry of the lithium battery (all of the battery chemistries you hear talked about eg LFP and NMC are lithium batteries). Tesla recommends 80% charging for its NMC based vehicles, but 100% for it's LFP vehicles.
@loksmack: Yes the recommends to 100 percent not for battery health though for range calibration. LFP don't like 100 percent either
@trawg: All EV batteries we get in Australia use Lithium.
But there are different chemistry's that can be used in Lithium batteries.
Then you have newer batteries coming that won't use any lithium or nasty's like Cobalt and Nickel:
Tesla has switched to using LFP batteries in their RWD Model 3 and Model Y models.
BYD ONLY uses LFP batteries now
Kia uses LFP on the entire EV5 range
MG only uses LFP on the base 51kWh battery in the base MG4.
Ford uses LFP in the base Mach-E
XPeng uses LFP in the base G6
Leapmotor uses LFP in the C10
In countries like Australia where we have a warmer climate LFP is generally considered to be the better choice overall, as they have:
The issue with Cobalt and Nickle comes from the way its mined. Just educate yourself a little bit - if you take the time to see how this stuff is mined (generally by children in third world countries), I suspect most people would want to avoid them where possible.
All batteries in EV's will outlast the cars they are contained in - the bigger issue here is going to be in a decades time when these cars get disposed of and making sure we are repurposing the batteries and not throwing them away.
@E5TOQUE: Cobat also poses a risk of cobalt poisoning to anyone near the EV if it is on fire. Fire fighters are coming up against this more and more.
@E5TOQUE: FYI, lots of LFP cells are connected to make a battery (and cars have several batteries in parallel to provide high current at the desired voltage). The material used to connect the cells is typically strips of nickel.
@E5TOQUE: Thanks for the explainers folks! For some reason I thought NMC was lithium-free, which would have been trivial to check had I bothered. Appreciate the (polite) corrections.
@E5TOQUE: There is talk of repurposing them as cheap home batteries.
Tesla 13kwh powerwall is around 20k installed, I wouldn't mind a cheap 80% 51kwh car battery to use as a home battery.
Not correct.
The only reason to charge LFP to 100% is to maintain calibration, LFP charging degradation is not unlike NMC. LFP is simply a cheaper alternative, because you need a bigger battery to store equivalent KW as NMC. Having said that either battery technology is capable of hundreds of thousands of kilomotres if excessive peak charging is avoided.
@Bespoken: I call bollocks on a couple of counts… the main reason to charge a battery to the highest state of charge is…umm… so you have the highest amount of energy stored! Forget calibration…. 100% of charge is 1/5 more range than 80%!
You're the first that I've seen claiming that top charge degradation of the two technology types are the same!
The whole point is that lithium iron does not degrade from "excessive peak charging" (ie fully charging), but lithium ion batteries do.
@rooster7777: The latest research has established that charging LFP to 100% produces proportionally similar (i.e high) wear to NMC. Here's the readers digest video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1zKfIQUQ-s&ab_channel=Engin…
And here's the actual research paper:
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1149/1945-7111/ad6cbd/…
I already knew this from my experiences with RC LFP cells over the years, but its nice to see it scientifically formalised.
@Dogsrule: In currently observable universe, all batteries degrade. I agree that LFP isn't the panacea that was promised. It definitely degrades everytime you charge, use and over heat (includes severe summer heat), and excessively cool.
In usual use, you should only charge both chemistries to 80-90% max and only upping it to 100% for road trips.
The usual range of these cars are
Real world = 80% WLTP
Highway range = 80% Real world
Yearly degradation 1-2%
At 10 years:
Real world range = 70% WLTP
Highway range = 80% real world
You will also have 10-15% less peak power from motor due to battery physics and motor wear
@Naigrabzo: Yeah pretty much agree with all the figures you've stated for an average person using them.
No doubt LFP is more robust than Ternary batteries, but they really suffer high internal resistance at lower temps and have associated problems with charging, regen braking and power delivery.
NMC is much more performant and of course more energy dense. Imo the main draw card for LFP is price, because both chemistries will last the life of the car.
NMC degrades faster but has higher energy density (bigger battery capacity). LFP doesn't degrade as fast, has smaller battery capacity but can be charged to 100% without causing a rift in time that degrades the NMC battery even faster. I've seen some talking heads on YouTube basically saying that LFP in the long run is better because NMC degrades faster and that bigger battery capacity after X years actually ends up being basically the same as LFP, plus the battery is just a lot more idiot proof in terms of charging to 100%. I could be totally wrong. I mean just look at my avatar picture.
Avatar checks out
I have seen some commentary suggesting the constant 100% charging thing with LFP is basically bollocks.
Charging to 100% degrades the battery on LFP, the difference is that LFP has to be charged to 100% to maintain the BMS control of the battery range determination because LFP has a weird indeterminate discharge profile.
That is why you need to charge it to 100%, not because it “likes” it, far from it.
@Grok: The truth is in the middle here.
Yes LFP batteries need to be charged to 100% to reset the BMS controllers.
BUT
The LFP chemistry does get double/triple the charge cycles that NMC/NCA gets.
And we shouldn't be ignoring the facts around how the Nickle and Cobalt in NMC/NCA batteries is mined (with Children in incredibly toxic and dangerous places).
@Grok: Grok on X says
The degradation characteristics of Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) batteries and Nickel Manganese Cobalt (NMC) batteries differ, especially in how they respond to charging levels:
LFP Batteries:
NMC Batteries:
Comparison:
- When comparing the two:
- An LFP battery charged regularly to 100% will likely degrade less quickly in terms of capacity retention over time compared to an NMC battery charged to 100%. However, when you charge an NMC battery to only 80%, it experiences less stress, potentially leading to a slower degradation rate than an LFP at 100%.
- Thus, an NMC battery charged to 80% might degrade slower than an LFP charged to 100%, but this comparison also involves trade-offs in terms of energy density, safety, and overall battery management strategies.
In summary, while LFP batteries are more resilient to being charged to 100%, they are not completely immune to degradation from this practice. Conversely, charging NMC batteries to 80% helps in extending their lifespan, but this comes at the cost of utilizing less of the battery's total capacity for daily use. For someone prioritizing battery longevity over maximizing range, charging an NMC battery to 80% could indeed lead to slower degradation compared to routinely charging an LFP battery to 100%. However, if the full range is needed, the LFP's ability to handle full charges better might be more beneficial.
I've seen alot on the roads must be selling a few mg4s.