Backlash to a new $120,000-a-year union pay deal for stop-sign holders working 36-hour weeks has prompted a heated defence of tradies.
What side are you on?
Should Stop Sign Holders Get a Pay Rise to $120k?
capslock on 19/02/2024 - 10:37
Last edited 19/02/2024 - 11:08 by 1 other user
Last edited 19/02/2024 - 11:08 by 1 other user
Poll Options
- 194Yes
- 868No
Comments
It has nothing to do with the award wage. If you get on a work site with an EBA, you're on CFMEU turf. The base rate on the award gets thrown out the window.
$50.50 per hour base rate. Overtime at $113.62
https://vic.cfmeu.org/sites/vic.cfmeu.org/files/2023%20Traff…
I understand that, but the way they word their articles and make their headlines is designed to give the idea that this is a normal wage for the industry.
It is not.
It is very specific to those union sites and jobs.
Good luck to the general public or any of the average readers of news.com waltzing in and getting a job with them.But your exact words were no one is going to clear 120k as a lollipop holder. It's certainly possible if you are on an EBA. Admittedly it would take 12 hours of overtime a week, which is a pretty sweet roster but it can be done.
I think there's an argument to be had that EBA rates have basically parted ways with reality.
@cannedhams: No, it's award rates that have parted ways with reality.
For the most part awards have been indexed at or below inflation for over three decades now. They're not particularly contested by anyone, they're not negotiated, and in fact they're barely even a thing unless your employer is so small and/or shitty that they're not willing to pay their employees fairly.
For all intents and purposes awards are effectively the minimum wage, with some minor tweaks for different industries for historical reasons. They're meant to be a bare bones minimum, not some kind of fair assessment of the value of the work.
EBAs are working exactly how they are designed to work. It's just that the whole bullshit conservative line about employers and employees negotiating 'fair' wages as equal parties only applies to cases where the business is vastly more equal than their employees.
@AngoraFish: I'm not blaming the CFMEU for getting results for their workers. Wish my workplace was represented by a union half as effective as they were.
But the EBA pay rates are nearly three times as much. If you had a leaking tap and the handyman agreed to come and fix it for $210 (three times the going rate) would you take them up on it? You can qualify as a traffic controller in 2 weeks.
@cannedhams: This is a ridiculous argument.
The handyman fixing your shit has insurances, a van/trade vehicle and a bunch of other ongoing business expenses. He NEEDs to charge more , and $210 for a minimum charge isn't unreasonable given the COL and ongoing business expenses. That is the going rate for the most part, no one's coming to your house without making it worth their while or they're not making enough money.You need to compare full/part time with the same. You need to compare labor rates between independent operators only, compare charge out rates of companies offering the same service. They will all vary, and for good reason.
I do agree these rates sound like a good wicket for traffic control, but it'd be a shit gig being out there rain hail or shine and if you weren't being paid that much you'd probably look at doing something where you're at least out of the whether for comparable pay.
But your exact words were no one is going to clear 120k as a lollipop holder
My wording should be corrected, but my meaning is the same: the average traffic controller is not getting paid that.
Its definitely possible as a casual working nights and weekends for a year
OR
Getting onto a union job with over time (few and far between).But even in both these scenarios your work can be affected by weather and job delays thus dropping your yearly earnings (unless your permanent)
Even with the union job you would need to do a lot more then 36 hours a week as a permanent employee to get close.
I think there's an argument to be had that EBA rates have basically parted ways with reality.
In some workplaces, 100% the case.
But in other work place EBAs the working man is getting done over (eg: my previous employer haha).
Union jobs have traditionally had those unrealistically high wages.
where do I sign up?
LXRP, Day shift $1200, night shift $1400, I saw it happen with my own eyes over 4 year period.
Not doubting it on a government project or union run project.
But the rest of that industry gets nothing even close. Even FIFO is low $40s PH casual.
Its not a well paid job generally speaking.
It just has potential to make money in OT and allowances.
yep i did it temporary between contracts just to get some money. even the tmis are only hitting 60-70k working some mean hours
Well, I learnt something today… "Lollipop Girls"
Those Victorians are on a very good wicket, however it would be very misleading if they aren't earning that on average. I do know that many of the definitely earn a lot more than that by doing frequent overtime on night shifts/weekend work, weekends are where all the money is.
Colleagues daughter was earning $90k doing this 5 years ago without doing any special shifts. Construction costs are insane.
I spent years working in close contact with people doing this for work on private/union/government/mine sites and got to know many of them well.
They all tell the same story, low wages and inconsistent work throughout the year.
Your friends daughter could earn 90k, but unless she had a job with the union, she was doing 10+ hours a day and getting ot and had a site that had work for a long stint.
It's a rightwing union beatup by the Murdoch press. You're correct. The average lollipop worker is never earning $120k per year.
Why do you say it's a load of garbage? Based on CFMEU award:
$52.5 travel allowance x 5 days x 52 weeks + $52.23 pay x 36 hours x 52 weeks x 1.1 super = $121,202.02.
No overtime. And this excludes the 1.3 weeks of long service leave pay per year.
Because that is not a standard wage for that job.
Thats the unicorn of traffic management positions.As I mentioned above, you think just anyone can go do a short course and wander into a union job with 0 connections? Nope…
Punch traffic controller into seek and you will see almost exclusively $30-35ph casual across all states.
And they are lucky if they can get consistent work through the year, many can’t.
Reference:
https://www.seek.com.au/Traffic-Controller-jobsSo its just a clickbait article blowing smoke up the unions bum and only published to stir people up.
What a load of garbage and misleading information…
From news.com.au? Never!
It should be pretty clear that this is a hit piece against a union raise when "Construction, Forestry, Maritime Employees" seems to only include stop sign holders.
Here is the correct response. Realistic hourly rate and number of hours is the way to look at income, not some pie in the sky number for the media to make a headline out of.
Yes stupid people who parrot baseless and unresearched claims on social media usually never dig into the actual details and numbers and are responsible for spreading stupidity at faster rates than the covid spread rates. I mean it is enough when I saw the link was murdoch propaganda.
Go stand in the road with a stop sign and 2394823048 angry stoned dead shits in a hurry to get nowhere that don't give a toss if they wipe you out.
stoned dead shits in a hurry
Huh?
sounds like a Mad Max spinoff with the tag-line "He couldn't stop what was coming"
I'm just wondering where these hurried stoners are. I'd imagine most stoners would come to a complete stop even if the lollipop was just set to "slow down."
Mr Hanky gets on the dope.
Sadly, a family friend who's 23 years old was hit by a car and has now lost half of a leg. This was in the UK not Aus but this is a potentially dangerous job.
I wouldn't have believed without actual evidence but it's real and she now has a whole life ahead of her with a major disability. She's an active outdoors girl so will most likely cope better than many but it must be horrible for her in reality.
So sad
We should make them do drug testing of drivers as they wait. Give them police powers of arrest. Then we can pay them more
How many accidents have been reported in this job…….zero fatalities and no reported hits by other vehicles
In Victoria, 7 months prior, a traffic controller was killed whilst setting up for roadworks in Carrum Downs.
In Western Australia during the last two years, 3 traffic controllers have been killed.
Accurate data is unavailable but published research suggests each year, 50 deaths and 750 injuries at roadwork zones in Australia.16 Mar 2021that's pretty high
On the other hand, we need more diversity for traffic controllers. I hardly see any guys doing that job. So companies only hire hot girls?
i will say there has been a SURPRISING amount of actually pretty tidy feminine traffic controllers lately, the squad outside my office last week was actually largely female while the squad doing the works (replacing water pipes with machinery and hand tools) was all dudes.
Its not a surprise.
They did the research on it and realised that you are less likely to yell at an attractive girl holding up traffic.
And thus, its mainly young girls.
I don't think any research needed to be done. It's a given.
Same reason the oldies are usually the door people at Kmart or Big W, people find it a lot harder to steal from them
lol did u just make that up? How do you measure attractiveness?
Which is a danger in itself with male drivers looking at them rather than the road. Obvs I've never done this 😀
only hire
hotIrish girlsFixed it for you.
irish girls
in my mind when someone says 'irish girl' i think the chick in the galway girl music clip by ed sheeran and go oh damn nice an irish girl
in my mind when someone says 'irish girl' i think the chick in the galway girl music clip by ed sheeran(youtube.com) and go oh damn nice an irish girl
Took a minute or three watching that video - pretty sure she's also the assassin in Hanna.
They can't be hot and Irish? I think they very much can.
Certainly in Sydney a lot of Irish males who come here work in building and other similar trade type jobs. Therefore it's not surprising that their friends/girlfriends might be doing these jobs.
I was a backpacker here originally and a job that pays ok and doesn't require a lot of thinking is actually ideal when you're hungover 4 or 5 days a week 😀. I'm old and sensible now of course.
and guys too, just saw 2 - a guy and a girl, hot enough to be models.
Pretty sure there was an incentive not long ago to get mothers back in to the work force
Ok that sounds dangerous. Everybody keeps their eyes on all sorts of places except the road.
Roadworks outside our house this morning and people holding signs at both ends were extremely pretty girls in early 20s. Even wife commented how pretty they were.
generally young, blond haired girls who happen to be the daughter, niece, cousin……of the union boss on the site…..
generally young, blond haired girls who happen to be the daughter, niece, cousin……of the union boss on the site….
Most of the ones I've spoken to seem to be Euro backpackers.
I suspect these jobs only go to mates or family of existing union members. I've never seen the Uber Eats driver demographic doing this job.
Love a good story about the union
🛑 STOP 🛑
Wow, according to the article average full time weekly pay is over $1800.
Methinks the top 1% are skewing this "average" rather significantly.
Are you paid less than them? Go work as one for a pay raise, stop being a crab in a barrel.
Are you paid more than them? Lucky you, stop putting people down.
Are you paying these employees? Damn, it must suck to share more of the profits. Maybe time to sell the third yacht?
Do you live in Victoria?
Do you love being the highest taxed state by a country mile because of all the debt we have?
One (main) reason being the out of control budget for every infrastructure spend@Danstar: Crap take, infrastructure costs are highest in WA, then NSW, then VIC.
Also not a country mile, unless a country mile you means sub percentages.
@Jolakot: https://infrastructure.org.au/policy-research/major-reports/….
Country mile. WA not even close….
The link shows the total spend amount and not what's being built, but Victoria isn't building anything extra compared to other states like NSW.
@Jolakot: No reply to the link I provided where WA is one of the lowest spending states on infrastructure ?
@Danstar: Personally I thought you already had it all wrapped up in a nice little bow; providing a weak argument and then immediately debunking it.
Now normally you're suppose to take turns with these kinds of things, but I do admire the expediency.
@Danstar: Falling flat on your face and deflecting all questions with nonsense remarks? Must be a nationals voter
I voted for the legalise marijuana party, so far they're the only party I trust to actually deliver on election promises. Never smoked in my life, but it's the only party with reasonable election promises, and also pretty funny to see them do better than something like one nation.
For our local election I think I put the greens first, mostly because it's Bill Shorten's safe seat and I'd like him to feel the turtles snapping at his feet, so he actually does something for us for once.
Probably would have voted Liberal though if their candidate wasn't a religious nutjob, which is only slightly worse than a climate nutjob.
They both think we're going to die in an cataclysmic apocalypse, but at least the greenie is going to have a good time before then.
Falling flat on your face and deflecting all questions with nonsense remarks?
Personally I thought you already had it all wrapped up in a nice little bow; providing a weak argument and then immediately debunking it. Now normally you're suppose to take turns with these kinds of things, but I do admire the expediency.
🤦♂️
What they are not taking into account are all the ones that supplement their lollipop duties with their OnlyFans accounts.
Every time I see one of these "look how much lollipop operaters get, you'll be shocked!!" news articles and it's always some instathot looking girl with massively long nails and Botox injected lips…
If these jobs were paying anything like they are claiming, people would be knifing each other to get the job.
They may make $1800 a week on some rare occasion (night shift, weekend on a public holiday) but most of the rest of the time, they would be on minimum wage.
nah the bottom 99% are pulling the average down!
Seems low.
You noticed it used to be older blokes holding those signs. I imagined that after decades of heavy outdoor work, their bodies were getting worn out from multiple small injuries, and so, still far too young to retire, they were put onto the light jobs.
Now they seem to be held by young healthy people. Maybe the girlfriend or daughter of the supervisor? Easy money if you are connected.
The amount of people on lists to get the job to 'hold up a sign' are huge.
Source?
Can you share a bunch of job ads that are begging for people to hold signs? I would like to apply.
@Jaysful: That's the point, more people looking for those jobs than what is available. The supply to demand doesn't warrant such an unskilled job to be paid so much. So you won't be finding many unfilled positions advertised.
Don't forget they also get a $260 pw travel allowance.
Wow, so they get this regardless of distance to work from home? Or is this a special FIFO allowance?
Dad got $70 per day travel allowance to a site in rural Central Coast NSW. Given the location, there was like 20 cars to deal with per 8 hour shift.
There were some other allowances given the location (30 minutes from the nearest Centr). He cleared (after tax) $2,500 one week with a Saturday to Wednesday working week, afternoon/evening (not nights) and travel allowances, as a "retiree". More than he ever made during his professional career.
Great paying work if it suits!
So a nurse gets about 90K after a 4 year degree and the lollipop girl gets 120K. I have a friend who is doing a post grad on oncology nursing so she can get to ~110K. No wonder there is a shortage of medical staff.
Yeah. All the smart ones skip uni and become lollipop holders.
stop comparing the two. Nurses are underpaid and lollipop girls dont get $120k. Its just newscorpse manufactured outrage. It distracts from spud's corruption deals …
hm ? what sort of a nurse gets 1M+ ?
I missed the nursing bit 😂 just saw oncology.
@EtherealArchelon: The average surgical oncologist gross salary in Brisbane, Australia is $423,639 or an equivalent hourly rate of $204. This is 9% lower (-$41,828) than the average surgical oncologist salary in Australia. In addition, they earn an average bonus of $66,681.
so still better than 90k
@redfox1200: This is after many years of advanced training though. The full time rate for a junior doctor in SA Health after studying 6yrs is ~80k
@redfox1200: Surgical oncologists are super specialised SURGEONS who are FRACS. Not oncologists who have medical specialisation.
That's a poor argument. You should be concerned that nurses aren't earning more, and try to have their rate lifted instead of trying to bring others down.
I probably don't understand the economics of your statement enough, but if everyone's income was to increase, wouldn't this eventually result in everyone's income being higher and the effective purchasing power of each dollar decreasing i.e. inflation. Not that we manufacture anything anyways, but it would probably make the input costs of our exports (of which admittedly we have very limited amounts) even higher, isolating us further from the rest of the globe?
It might be a completely incorrect assumption, but I feel that if incomes go up, cost of production goes up, inflation goes up, and we are back where we started. Isn't it better to keep incomes low, and therefore have higher purchasing power for each dollar?
Isn't it better to keep incomes low, and therefore have higher purchasing power for each dollar?
That doesn't seem to have been working very well recently. The current high inflation is not being caused by wage rises.
There isn't a shortage of medical staff, there is a shortage of positions available for medical staff. Hospitals want more staff but don't have the budget to pay for them.
There is absolutely a shortage of medical staff. Numerous hospitals have failed to fill their recruitments goals this year and are working hard to pull in overseas/interstate workers. SA Health is behind the game big time NSW/VIC both offering 10k+ moving incentives and SA health just watches as their staff walk out the door and across the border.
Yes and that is the shortage, there are staff available but there isn't the money to pay for the positions. The graduate program is filled each year but after the graduate position ends there isn't anywhere for them to go. Was the position my wife was in and the same position grads are in now.
Notice how labor spend lots on healthcare construction rather than healthcare capability. Construction gets money in the Union's pocked, new equipment and increasing staffing does not. Maybe the nursing union will get more dues by increasing staffing but they don't get as much attention since they're much more educated than the likes of the CFMEU mafia mob.
Supply and demand, if that's what it takes to get people to do it then that's what it costs. Don't think too many are working full time the entire year either as others have said earning that full 120K.
The "demand" and "supply" is dictated by the union. The "demand" the salary levels and if they do not get what they want the they cut off the "supply".
Another example of why the Victorian government is essentially bankrupt - they just give the unions what they want.
Victoria now has the highest debt in Australia and and they have the highest levels of taxation.
Victoria now has the highest debt in Australia
and one of the highest per capital debs in the world !!!
https://vic.cfmeu.org/sites/vic.cfmeu.org/files/2023%20Site%…
Some interesting numbers in there.