How can anyone possibly complain about Australian welfare?

SlavOz on 26/03/2020 - 11:31
Last edited 30/03/2020 - 14:51 by 1 other user

I'm sorry, but I have to vent here. I probably deserve the dose of stupidity I've experienced the last couple of days because it's my fault for spending so much time reading social media, but I really can't fathom how so many of our people have the nerve to complain about Australia's welfare system.

Our welfare is so good that the main complaint against it in recent years has been that it's too good. We have among the highest rates of tax redistribution in the world and have rightfully earned the moniker of a "welfare state".

Now we suddenly have a massive influx of unemployment, and Centrelink has agreed to waive the requirements to means test or even prove that you're looking for another job, and people are still complaining!

Where is this coming from? Have we really bred an entire generation of adult brats who have been taught that the world is an injustice if they don't get exactly what they want, when they want it?

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Comments

        • SlavOz on 28/03/2020 - 17:34
          -3

          Well look who made themselves the arbiter of what's right and true. You grew up in a bad place, came to a better one, and yet want to make this as bad or worse.

          Now you're resorting to putting words in my mouth. Where did I say I want to make Australia a worse place? I've explicitly said that our welfare system is good because my family was on it at one time and it helped us. I want welfare to stay the way it is - the way that took my family out of poverty and gave us a chance to succeed. Youre the one who wants to reform the whole system to become a living wage so people can sit around and collect taxpayer money for doing nothing.

          • koalabargains on 29/03/2020 - 14:01
            +6

            @SlavOz: You want to make Australia like whatever shithole your family fled from previously.

            If you don't like the welfare system that Australia has had in place for decades, then maybe you should do what your ancestors did and move to someplace that fits your ideals.

            I want welfare to stay the way it is - the way that took my family out of poverty and gave us a chance to succeed. Youre the one who wants to reform the whole system to become a living wage so people can sit around and collect taxpayer money for doing nothing.

            You are deeply hypocritical and it can be seen in this post and your past posts. Like where you assumed the housing market was fine and itwas just stupid people buying fancy houses? But when you went to buy a house in Sydney, you realised that there aren't good options.

            You seem to believe that the welfare your family received was just, but the welfare that others receive now is unjust. Back when your family was a bunch of poor immigrants, there were many people here who felt and wrote things about them that are simliar to the nonsense you are spouting now.

            You should thank god that there were people with good sense and decency to ensure the welfare system provided for your family back then. Or you would have grown up barefoot, illiterate, and picking fruit up in queensland instead of being semi-educated enough to parrot regressive right wing propoaganda.

      • TSH on 28/03/2020 - 12:04
        +2

        Dude from one migrant to another. I can relate but you seem bitter.

        You have a full right to vent but not all stories on welfare are same.

        All systems can be gamed to some extent. Dont brush all pastry with the same brush.

  • AustriaBargain on 28/03/2020 - 12:34

    Business owners and content creators will be happy that we can still buy their stuff. Streaming services will have more money than ever to make us cool shows.

    • DemocracyManifest on 28/03/2020 - 20:56

      Imagine the global revenue porn producers/cam sites will be getting at this time

  • Milk tea on 28/03/2020 - 14:41
    +3

    Can someone explain to me why people need rent assistance now when they get the double payments from centrelink for the next 6 months plus the 750 where it will be more than enough to cover weekly rent of 350 to 400 for a 3 bedroom house plus bills? Also with bills and loans you can also put a hold for 3 to 6 months

    • AustriaBargain on 28/03/2020 - 21:05
      +1

      The money is intended to help people spend more in the economy, not just pay their landlords.

      • Milk tea on 28/03/2020 - 22:19

        But most landlords only have this one property and many use this as their primary income while also having to have money to maintain the property as well as pay land rates while they don't get rental assistance.

  • Vinodra on 28/03/2020 - 15:28
    +7

    The only people complaining about it being too good recently are self abosrbed elitists like you, SlavOz.

    If you are working casual or PPT in a minimum wage job, if your hours get cut significantly or you get laid off, you do not have the luxury of waiting several weeks to pay bills or buy food.

    You better hope you're never in a situation where you unfortunatly have to apply for wellfare.. You will be in for a rude awakening. The reason so many people are having trouble even submitting a claim is that the wellfare system is complete garbage and intentionally designed to (profanity) people over. In the event of an emergency where potentially 1000000+ people will be laid off or lose their jobs, it is functionally near impossible to submit a claim. It took me 1 week of jumping through hoops to complete something that in Centrelink's own words, is supposed to take approximately 5 minutes. That is just one of the many problems.

    But no, the system is fine because some self absorbed OzBargainer that has never had to deal with the system says so.

    • SlavOz on 28/03/2020 - 17:31
      +3

      Show me a country that has a welfare system that's simple and easy. Welfare is intentionally designed to be convoluted to weed out those who would otherwise apply when they dont even need it.

      Take Norway as already mentioned in this thread. Their welfare is highly rated yet even in Norway you need to rock up, fill out applications, and prove that you're looking for a job. There is no such thing as a system that will give you free money unchecked and unconditional. That is beyond entitlement.

      • koalabargains on 28/03/2020 - 18:06
        +2

        Welfare is intentionally designed to be convoluted to weed out those who would otherwise apply when they dont even need it.

        Since when? Since the 1980s in America. Since Neo-liberalism.

        Not always.

        Let me ask you this, do you believe there are people on welfare who will be on welfare for decades because they cannot work?

        This is a nice country. It works because tradies are paid way more than they are anywhere else in the world. Because the dole worked for people until they sorted their lives out and went to work.

        If you mess with the fabric of a country, to make it like whatever shithole you're envisioning envisaging, all you do is turn OZ into a shithole.

      • Vinodra on 28/03/2020 - 19:16
        +2

        Better than 'x' country doesnt mean the system is good. The AU system sucks because the government privatised most of the system and gutted centrelink of most of their staff.

  • haemolysis on 28/03/2020 - 15:31
    +3

    I’m wouldn’t bother to debate where welfare sits between liveable and generous (but matter-of-factly people DO live on it, even prior to the adjustments, so it’s nowhere below that scale.)

    But what I AM concerned about, is the push to make it more “generous” is absolutely going to slow people looking to re-enter the workforce. If you lose your job you should be applying for new ones on day zero. There’s a reason they’re named “jobseeker” payments. You’re not supposed to be receiving your “wage” you’re supposed to be assisted to find new work.

    This hasn’t got anything to do with moral judgement of those needing assistance or a comment on how the situation looks right now: it’s the simple reality of how both individuals, and the nation’s economy as a whole recovers. If we do not shuffle BACK into the system, we will not recover. If the government assists us to “hibernate the economy” as I’m seeing in the media right now - we will not wake up. Economies don’t hibernate.

    • triviums on 28/03/2020 - 16:17
      +4

      If you believe in people having to look for jobs from day one then you should really be an advocate for reforms to jobseeker payments so that people have the best chance of finding a job.

      There are numerous reports that employment service providers are no help at all to people who need assistance in finding a job

      There are reports of people on jobseeker payments being cut off when they are doing something that would directly/indirectly help them find a job

      The Jobseeker payment requires you to find jobs the "old fashion way". There are so many jobs out there that aren't hiring people the "old fashion way"

    • popsiee on 28/03/2020 - 17:09
      +2

      If you lose your job you should be applying for new ones on day zero.

      Seriously didn't you notice all the industries closing . What jobs and wake up !

      • SlavOz on 28/03/2020 - 17:25
        -2

        Woolies just announced 20,000 new jobs. Coles announced 5,000 new jobs. Uber is always looking for more casuals. The gig economy is still viable if you hold a particular skillet that you can charge clients for. The finance and banking sector are still experiencing growth and still have jobs listed.

        Sounds like you've given up too soon. Search harder, there are heaps of jobs going. Will it fill all the unemployed? No, but it will fill a lot.

        • SydStrand on 28/03/2020 - 18:16
          +7

          Bollocks. By their own admission, those new jobs from Woolies will prioritise recently laid-off employees from Qantas, Village Roadshow, and Cotton On. Qantas alone stood down 20,000 workers. So that's Woollies accounted for. So what Virgin? Kathmandu? Myer just stood down an extra 10k today. Expect more mass layoffs next week. And what about all the smaller businesses i.e. every restaurant or cafe in Australia?

          Let's also not pretend that these supermarket hires won't prioritise 'juniors' aka teenagers, that it's a 1:1 geographic overlap between positions and job seekers, or that everyone recently laid off is fit to stack shelves. Uber is hurting badly in this climate with allegedly 60-70% reduction in rides within affected cities. The average cook or hairdresser is not going to be able to just transition to the 'finance and banking sector.' This is delusional. There are NOT 'heaps of jobs going.' Not even close. It doesn't even qualify as a band aid, so don't pretend it'll 'fill a lot.'

        • DemocracyManifest on 28/03/2020 - 20:54
          +5

          Its just marketing dude, these new casuals will probably just be doing 3 hrs and 45 mins a week, and are labour hire employees so they can be cut off the books at any time

    • DemocracyManifest on 28/03/2020 - 20:55
      +4

      What jobs lmao the money is being dished out so people can somewhat survive lockdown which is pending

  • barghunt1 on 28/03/2020 - 17:04
    +14

    This thread is awful. So many awful comments. A bunch of people clueless of what its really like to deal with centrelink.

    • koalabargains on 28/03/2020 - 18:08
      +12

      It's ignorant and nasty and so shortsighted.

      Look up the mommy blogs to see how many middle and upper middle class women and families complain about centrelink and daycare payments. The system is complete shit and designed to not work.

      But these 'people' read the Herald Sun and believe that centrelink is hand delivering gold ingots

  • koalabargains on 28/03/2020 - 17:58
    +4

    I love how first generation and second generation immigrants have got it all figured out.

    Everything in OZ is amazing when you compare it to some third world shithole.

    Or you know, when you've never had to deal with centrelink yourself and understand what you're talking about.

    On paper, it's a fantastic infallible system.

    Now talk to anyone that received a robodebt of thousands of dollars.

    • SlavOz on 28/03/2020 - 19:26
      +1

      I love how first generation and second generation immigrants have got it all figured out.

      Or perhaps it's because they come from a country and culture that doesn't have free handouts, so they're taught to work hard from a young age and expect nothing but your due wage.

      Shit it's no wonder so many of our industries are getting filled by foreigners. I haven't seen a doctor who speaks English as a first language in almost a decade.

      When peasants from a Malaysian village can come over and do better than a local who's had every advantage possible, you know there's a problem.

      • koalabargains on 28/03/2020 - 20:33
        +3

        See, what's missing from your understanding is the dimension of TIME.

        Immigrants measure things in single generations. Which is fine, there's nothing wrong with that.

        You just need to understand that when you have been somewhere for many generations, and the thought never occurs to you to leave, there are different things to consider.

        Your ideas about who is "doing better" comes from your background and upbringing.

        Being a doctor, (profanity) SUCKS. The reason why Aussies don't kill themselves out to be a doctor like recent immigrants do is because its a miserable life for like 200k, and it comes with enough HECS to make a grown man cry.

        You know whats a good life? going to school, doing alright, getting a half decent job for ten years, meeting a girl, knocking out a couple of kids, a holiday now and then, maybe a boat or a caravan, might inhereit some money from mum or dad, might not, time to retire, travel a bit, die, maybe leave something for the kids.

        That might seem like a waste because that person has "had every advantage possible" but not everybody wants to "make it." But that's a GOOD life. That's an EASY life. You dont have to (profanity) over someone in a refugee camp or stab somebody or bribe someone to get to a decent country to fight FIGHT FIGHT for make a couple more dollars than your neighbor.

        Life is pretty good here, it's been pretty good for a while. Part of that means not being a greedy (profanity) or tyring to squeeze every penny.

        To the Malay doctors, I say good on them. I certainly dont want to spent 11-14 years to have to dig through piss and shit and fat and digusting breaking down bodies in a profession that is RIFE with bullying. I certainly dont want to have to move to some strange land away from all my friends, families, customs, to do it.

        I'm glad theyre here to do it.

        And if they dont want to do it? guess what, there's someone else from the island next door that'll do a better job for even cheaper.

        • DemocracyManifest on 28/03/2020 - 20:53

          Becoming a doctor has ridiculously high pre admission requirements, and as a result our doctors have zero bedside manners and are on the autistic spectrum. The majority of GPs are just shonks and just rely on their software to diagnose most patients, have zero time to do a proper diagnosis due to 10 minute blocks, the unis and admin bodies have failed the country

        • SlavOz on 29/03/2020 - 12:45

          You know whats a good life? going to school, doing alright, getting a half decent job for ten years, meeting a girl, knocking out a couple of kids, a holiday now and then,

          I agree, nothing wrong with that. But it's also a lot more risky and less prosperous. You talk about leaving something for the kids yet it doesn't sound like that's going to be possible if you just breeze through life and put pleasure over prosperity.

          Are the successful immigrants happier? Not necessarily. But they're a lot less likely to chase welfare, let alone complain that their free money should be even higher.

          It honestly sounds like you're advocating for the lazy approach to life. Don't plan, breeze through life, hope for the best. I wouldnt have a problem with that if it didn't include the last part…whine and complain when someone else makes more money than you and demand that they give up their taxes to help you out.

      • Ghosteye on 29/03/2020 - 21:40
        +2

        Jesus my parents are what you called 'peasants' from a Malaysian village.

        I'm not picking on your argument but your charged words will not help you convince anyone regardless of intent.

      • JohnHowardsEyebrows on 29/03/2020 - 21:51
        +2

        Or perhaps it's because they come from a country and culture that doesn't have free handouts, so they're taught to work hard from a young age and expect nothing but your due wage.

        Says a guy whose family was getting 'free handouts' from the day they arrived.

        You're as coherent as you are compassionate.

        • SlavOz on 30/03/2020 - 01:26
          -1

          How are you not getting this? I don't have a problem with the concept of welfare or people who are on it. I have a problem with people who expect - ney- DEMAND welfare, and then still complain that it's not enough when they get it. It's all about the attitude.

          And no I wasn't on welfare from day 1. We survived almost a year with no handouts.

          • SydStrand on 30/03/2020 - 02:31
            +1

            @SlavOz: Spare me. If the positions were reversed, you would be the FIRST person complaining it about it on Ozbargain, just like your many threads complaining about female workplaces, fines for mobile use, or TV ads telling you not to abuse fast food workers.

            Your hateful opinions on welfare recipients would be unnecessary even when things were good. Now, when tens of thousands of people were laid off in the midst of a pandemic, you think it's a great time to chastise them for demanding more support during financial distress. Ebenezer Scrooge wouldn't have the balls to say that.

  • KLoNe on 28/03/2020 - 19:13
    -1

    Australia is BY FAR the most privileged country on Earth and by far is the biggest collection of lazy (profanity) worldwide.

    • Chamillionaire on 28/03/2020 - 19:19

      This government gives no incentive for people to try and get ahead in life.

      Then if you do you get get hit twice. (profanity) over by the government and get some 20yo greenie newtown kids shouting "you're the rich crucify them"

      • DemocracyManifest on 28/03/2020 - 20:45
        +1

        Err, you've got to pay your tax, thats just how it is, and they have multiple schemes going to help small business, the extra payment is still under the minimum wage about 80% so its not going to be a holiday

  • Chamillionaire on 28/03/2020 - 19:16
    -1

    Yes I hate this welfare system. It is legit shit

    Right out of school not knowing what I wanted to do in life I decided to go straight out and get a job. I worked for 10 years paying taxes and blah blah. A few years ago I decided I needed a better than dead-end job and thought I would go to tafe and study cyber security. At the time I applied for Aus-study (everyone else in the class was). I was then told I failed the asset test (probably should not have been so honest right???). Yeah so what a load of shit that was. A slap in the face to a long time tax payer. They treat all tax payers like this but let welfare cheats continue to rip off the system and now rewarding them now with this stimulus money.

    Why shouldn't someone like this (me and many others) be f'ed over by the government?

    So yes mate I am complaining and others like me too should. Shouldn't we get something back from the government after contributing for all these years?

    Yes I feel like I'm ENTITLED!!! YES ENTITLED!!! yet never will be. Maybe I should quit my job now and become a leech on society as it seems like the only way I will finally get something back from the government. But I'd only get it this time because they got rid of the asset test.

    Scomo you're a dog and Albo you're one too. (Greens suck too - well f there's not one party that shares my political views maybe I should just start my own)

    And OP I'd love to hear back from you too and hear your thoughts on a comment from someone who that your post is directly aimed at… Someone from an ENTITLED adult from the generation of brats…

    • [Deactivated] on 28/03/2020 - 20:08
      +1

      What's your political views? Maybe I'll vote for you.

    • Rigby on 28/03/2020 - 20:41
      +3

      The asset test is $263,250 for homeowners and $473,750 for non-homeowners. What sort of 'dead-end' job did you work for 10 years in order to save that much?

      • Chamillionaire on 28/03/2020 - 22:57
        -1

        Just pushing papers office job. I lived at home for a lot of those which allowed me to save and invest.

        This was like 3yrs ago. Atm are those numbers the asset test for AusStudy? I wasn't after NewStart at the time nor am I now

        I will be honest did I need it no. Was I entitled to it I believe so especially since I have paid my taxes so why shouldn't I be. After all we had class mates (really professional students) receiving it using it on weed/drinks etc

        • darkmoss on 29/03/2020 - 12:52
          +1

          Sounds like Mummy and Daddy are your Centrelink

          • Chamillionaire on 29/03/2020 - 17:11
            -1

            @darkmoss: You trying to say I never worked in my life?

            And if it allowed me to save my money I don't really care

            • darkmoss on 29/03/2020 - 18:03

              @Chamillionaire: Not everybody has the luxury (or in your case, lack of desire to grow up and leave the nest), as to live with their parents forever and save money that way, you ignorant prat

              • Chamillionaire on 29/03/2020 - 18:49

                @darkmoss: Yeah lack of desire… That's why I decided to go study and actually start a career

                Don't care. You sound like some salty guy that's wasted his money early in life and then thought the barefoot investor would turn it around and you're trying to bring me down lmao

                • darkmoss on 30/03/2020 - 02:25
                  +1

                  @Chamillionaire: … lack of desire to leave home, as clearly stated. Don't paraphrase, it makes you seem even sillier.
                  You have relied on Mummy and Daddy to prop you up, then criticize those that don't have your freeloader lifestyle. That's great that you wanted to study ( you need it).
                  You've already admitted that you only saved that money, solely because your parents gave you a free ride. I couldn't care less about your manchild lifestyle, I just think that you're out of touch and shouldn't criticise those that need ACTUAL help to get by.

                  • Chamillionaire on 30/03/2020 - 05:15

                    @darkmoss: When did I criticize anyone? I was complaining about the government and how shit their welfare system is and the bludgers that get handouts (the government act as enablers as well). Never said people that have lost their jobs (and actually intend to find work again) shouldn't get it. In fact I said people who have paid taxes throughout their lives and contributed to society are the ones that should receive some sort of assistance from the government and should regardless of their financial position…..

                    And it was you that came in with a smart-ass comment and I'm sure being an Ozbargain keyboard warrior wanted to start shit…

      • Vinodra on 28/03/2020 - 22:57

        If you're talking cash it like $5000, you have to wait till you are broke usually.

        • ruddiger7 on 29/03/2020 - 11:31

          5500 for single people, 11000 for partnered.

    • DemocracyManifest on 28/03/2020 - 20:43
      +1

      The asset test needs to be permanently broadened

    • ThithLord on 30/03/2020 - 09:00

      Wow, guys, look at this dude - ten years, bravo, what a tax payer!

      • Chamillionaire on 30/03/2020 - 11:05

        Yeah and? It's not like im 40 when you're young you can only pay so many years of tax

        And 18mths of something from the government for what 10yrs. Seems more than fair to me. Or is some bludger that has never worked a day in their life more deserving…..

        • ThithLord on 30/03/2020 - 11:37

          You were the one who mentioned it, as if you deserved a pat on the back - don't get pissy when it's called out, bruv. FYI I'm just about in the same boat as you (a little more than ten yrs a tax payer)

  • DemocracyManifest on 28/03/2020 - 20:41
    +6

    I was on Newstart three years ago, and about a year and a half ago again, its not great. The worst thing about it is if you go and get a casual job or earn money some way you get penalised, it was only like $250 a week plus rent assistance if you were eligible, if you were doing your best and not earning like the minimum wage every week you should have been allowed to keep it for a bit longer to help you chug along and look for more stable work instead of chasing odd jobs just to get by. I hope all the 'job providers/employment agencies' are out of work like MAX, they are absolutely hopeless, once they sniff you have a job they hound you for proof so they can claim it as a KPI despite the fact they had no effect or provided you any assistance for getting a job. Its good its been increased, but it should have been increased a long time ago, like most organisations were asking for a raise of $50 a week and the gov said no all this time. Its going to be a huge wakeup call to how much of a nightmare dealing with Centrelink is, I've been wrongly cut off like 3-4 times in the past and it basically takes a day of your time to fix the issue

  • keejoonc on 28/03/2020 - 20:50
    +1

    Problem is these lazy dole bludgers like to reproduce and have lots of children. It's a vicious cycle. Government should stop paying ridiculous amount of money to people for having kids. Never understood why tax payers should fund other people's desire to have children.

    • unelectric on 28/03/2020 - 22:19
      +5

      Sustainable or not the economy is linked to population growth. Children are part of that growth.
      You pay taxes so that one day they might contribute to society too.
      You pay so they are not financially disadvantaged and enter an entrenched poverty cycle.
      You pay so they can have an education. An educated society is linked with increased GDP.
      You pay so they don't end up on the streets and the crime rate doesn't go up.

      • keejoonc on 29/03/2020 - 01:29
        +6

        Except children raised by these people aren't likely to contribute to society.

        • BrokenChairs on 29/03/2020 - 03:51
          +4

          Got any stats on 'dole bludgers', their breeding patterns, or their children's economic productivity?

          Or did you just make that up?

          • Ughhh on 29/03/2020 - 11:04

            @BrokenChairs: Considering how parents are huge role models for their kids…. Or do you not believe that?

            • BrokenChairs on 29/03/2020 - 16:13
              +1

              @Ughhh: Sorry, so how does that prove that welfare recipients breed at a higher rate to the general population and their kids are a greater net drain on society?

              I asked for evidence and you gave me anecdote.

              • Ughhh on 29/03/2020 - 16:54
                +1

                @BrokenChairs:

                so how does that prove that welfare recipients breed at a higher rate to the general population and their kids are a greater net drain on society

                I think you've misunderstood. I don't think anyone is saying that "all welfare recipients are dole bludgers". Some recipients are dole bludgers, and children born into families with low standards have a higher chance of repeating what their parents do- surely you don't need to have a high school cert to understand that.

          • ruddiger7 on 29/03/2020 - 11:25

            @BrokenChairs: There is definitely generational cyclic welfare in some families. I have seen it firsthand.

            • BrokenChairs on 29/03/2020 - 15:54
              +1

              @ruddiger7: Of course poverty is structural and cyclical. Though I'd argue that an assumption that these people do nothing but bludge and breed only makes matters worse.

              I'd also argue that there's zero evidience to suggest that the children of welfare recipients are on average are a net drain on the economy, and never contribute to society. That's prejudice and classicism.

          • keejoonc on 29/03/2020 - 13:39

            @BrokenChairs: Another example of problem in our society. You really think we need 'stats' to figure this out? Anyone with common sense knows children's upbringing and the environment that they are brought up in plays a big part in where they end up in life.
            If you lack the financial ability to raise the children properly and don't have the care nor desire to bring them up as a good citizen, it's a no brainier.

            • BrokenChairs on 29/03/2020 - 15:47
              +1

              @keejoonc: Informed decision making, applying a scientific method and asking for stats is a problem of society? Oh dear…

              You've just argued my point though - instead of demonising the poor, why not support those in disadvantaged situations via things like increased welfare payments allowing them to afford basic necessities. It improves livelihoods and life outcomes.

              • keejoonc on 29/03/2020 - 15:53

                @BrokenChairs: Basic necessities like booze, cigarettes and drugs? Sure.

                • BrokenChairs on 29/03/2020 - 16:11
                  +3

                  @keejoonc: Ignorant and bigoted opinion.
                  The recent ABS 6-yearly household expenditure report found that welfare recipients spent on average 1.8% of their payments on alcohol, 0.4% less than those not on welfare. A similar proportion was spent on tobacco products. The vast majority of their payments are used towards housing, utilities and groceries.

                  Educate yourself and learn some compassion for your fellow human:
                  https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/Latestproducts/6530…

                  • Diji on 29/03/2020 - 23:33
                    +2

                    @BrokenChairs: I'm convinced people like this will never be compassionate for those less fortunate than them. They've got too big a chip on their shoulder about not being the upper class they feel they rightly deserve to be to stop themselves punching down on those beneath them.

  • JohnHowardsEyebrows on 28/03/2020 - 21:42
    +10

    So the first thing to say is that unemployment benefits are just a tiny fraction of what the government spends on welfare. Indeed, we spend far more on franking credit refunds to retirees than we do on the dole (or on the pension, for that matter). The dole hasn't moved in real terms in decades, and, given the rise in housing costs, is not able to survive on without subsidised housing.

    Most people are off welfare within a year or two of starting it, and, given these people have paid taxes all their lives, the difficulty in obtaining the payment is a slap in the face - especially given they're forced to go to third party job networks (parasites sucking off the taxpayer teet) who rarely have jobs of relevance to people's backgrounds - so it's not a great experience for those who, under the OP's definition, must surely be the deserving recipients. Compare it to the wealthier societies of Scandinavia, where they are typically paid a percentage of their last salary, and you can see how miserly it really is.

    As for the hardcore unemployed, they are but a small, small fraction of all payments. It's extraordinarily sad that we have people who do not participate in society, but, given how bare bones the payment is, it's also very difficult for them to become productive members of society. It's not my job to educate the OP, but it's well understood that poverty is a trap that many find difficult to get out of.

    Now that the economy is closing down to protect one cohort, the rest of society is going to suffer, and - rightly so - they are demanding what is owed them, i.e. a livelihood to tide them through their period of sacrifice for the oldies whose lives they are saving by allowing the economy to be shut down. The new supplement of $550 will mean that - for most - it'll be possible to 'mark time' during the period, i.e. pay rent and utilities and maybe the basics of food and entertainment. The fact that so many erstwhile gainfully employed people are about to be put onto the dole through no fault of their own has highlighted just how impossible the current Newstart allowance is to live on.

    So really, the OP seemingly has no idea that there are people less fortunate than himself, and, in the absence of anything else to contribute, wants to puff his chest on the forum. Go learn more about the world, not everybody doing it tough was as lucky as you were, champ.

    • Vinodra on 28/03/2020 - 23:04
      +10

      Look at this guys previous threads, complaining about the government wanting people to be nicer to retail staff, complaining about working with females.

      This thread is the peak: Whinging and whining about other people being rightfully angry about something they clearly have never had to deal with.

      All they do is whinge and complain.

      • JohnHowardsEyebrows on 28/03/2020 - 23:19
        +6

        Yep. Just an entitled sook, deflecting his own frustration onto society's most disadvantaged.

        • SlavOz on 29/03/2020 - 00:08
          -7

          As opposed to deflecting your own frustration onto society's most advantaged?

          • JohnHowardsEyebrows on 29/03/2020 - 00:15
            +1

            @SlavOz: When did I have a go at the most advantaged? Even if I did, by definition being advantaged or disadvantaged is not earned but conferred, therefore taking aim at one is morally justified where the other just is not.

    • SlavOz on 29/03/2020 - 00:17
      -2

      As for the hardcore unemployed, they are but a small, small fraction of all payments.

      Do you have sources to back that up? No? Then stop claiming it.

      Now that the economy is closing down to protect one cohort, the rest of society is going to suffer

      Flat out wrong. The economy is being shut down to protect everyone. Coronavirus can kill you even if you're young. Children are a big risk as well. So no, this isn't some decision that's being made just to protect our oldies. It's to protect everyone. This is why so many people are critical of Scomo for not shutting down schools. People are actively calling for the econony to be shut down.

      So really, the OP seemingly has no idea that there are people less fortunate than himself

      I've pointed out multiple times that as an immigrant, my family of 8 children was fed on welfare back in the day (+ additional income from 16 hour workdays). I wouldnt call that fortunate. You're just making assumptions now.

      This nonsensical idea that you have to be some white fat rich guy in a suit to be opposed to welfare is just childish. I'm a working class bloke just like you who thinks the less fortunate should be grateful instead of complaining that their lifestyle in Sydney's prime location isn't being subsidised.

      • Vinodra on 29/03/2020 - 01:23
        +4

        Sorry to say, you're still an entitled sook.

        waaah wahhhh the women are constantly taking time off which makes it impossible to get any work done poor me, waaah wahh the governenment said I should be nice to fast food workers! How dare they! I have it so much harder, I have to interact with females in the workplace!!!…. hold up, HOW DARE THOSE PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN LAID OFF OR FIRED COMPLAIN ABOUT A BROKEN SYSTEM DESIGNED TO SCREW THEM OVER FOR AS LONG AS POSSIBLE!!!! WHAT RIGHT DO THEY HAVE TO COMPLAIN?!?!?!

      • twadds on 29/03/2020 - 14:08
        +4

        Do you have sources to back that up? No? Then stop claiming it.

        https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Depart…

        Unemployment benefits are a small portion of overall welfare, this is public any very easy to google information.

        Flat out wrong. The economy is being shut down to protect everyone. Coronavirus can kill you even if you're young. Children are a big risk as well.

        While everyone is at risk, saying children are a big risk is flat out wrong. They are the least likely to get sick out of any agegroup.
        https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/2020-03-24/coronavirus-co…

      • JohnHowardsEyebrows on 29/03/2020 - 18:16
        +3

        Do you have sources to back that up? No? Then stop claiming it.

        Per below figures, those who would be deemed hardcore (greater than 5 years) are about 12%, and that's after years of it getting worse (i.e. the dole is not helping people cycle back into work).

        https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/oct/21/newst…

        Flat out wrong. The economy is being shut down to protect everyone. Coronavirus can kill you even if you're young. Children are a big risk as well. So no, this isn't some decision that's being made just to protect our oldies. It's to protect everyone. This is why so many people are critical of Scomo for not shutting down schools. People are actively calling for the econony to be shut down.

        Ridiculous, grandstanding strawman. Young people are overwhelmingly unlikely to be afflicted by Covid-19 - the few exceptions prove the rule, and, were all of society to be equally afflicted, we wouldn't be shutting society down. We're doing it to protect the boomers and the oldies, and, for that, you're welcome for our generous sacrifice.

        I've pointed out multiple times that as an immigrant, my family of 8 children was fed on welfare back in the day (+ additional income from 16 hour workdays). I wouldnt call that fortunate. You're just making assumptions now. This nonsensical idea that you have to be some white fat rich guy in a suit to be opposed to welfare is just childish. I'm a working class bloke just like you who thinks the less fortunate should be grateful instead of complaining that their lifestyle in Sydney's prime location isn't being subsidised.

        There's nobody more uncaring than somebody with a 'pulled myself up from my own bootstraps' chip on their shoulder. You benefited from this country's welfare system a long time ago, yet you seem to hate anybody on it today, and have zero empathy for their plight, with no curiosity or consideration of whether it actually is possible to get by these days, given rents have gone far beyond what is affordable on the dole (and that's not an opinion - that's a widely agreed, numerical fact).

        But hey, I guess it's easier to take pot shots at 'dole bludgers' than it is to take pot shots at women - nobody can accuse you of misogyny that way.

          • JohnHowardsEyebrows on 29/03/2020 - 18:35
            +1

            @Baysew: I never said they could be. I simply pointed out that, were the danger to everybody to be as low as that to younger people, we wouldn't be in this situation, i.e. we would be able to deal with the few cases of hospitalisation and ICU required.

            So yes, this is younger people sacrificing their livelihoods for older people.

        • SlavOz on 29/03/2020 - 20:22
          -1

          Per below figures, those who would be deemed hardcore (greater than 5 years) are about 12%, and that's after years of it getting worse (i.e. the dole is not helping people cycle back into work).

          Those figures don't represent people who work as little as possible to get by, or who intentionally slide in and out of new jobs to gain the benefit.

          • JohnHowardsEyebrows on 29/03/2020 - 20:40
            +3

            @SlavOz: Jesus Christ you're a mean spirited individuat.

          • SydStrand on 30/03/2020 - 02:48

            @SlavOz: Typical SlavOz response. Crass and baseless assumption in opposition to fact, that somehow finds a way to blame welfare recipients and the working poor. With a mean spirit and mental gymnastics like that, you can get your own show on 2GB.

            • ThithLord on 30/03/2020 - 09:05
              +1

              @SydStrand: What game are we playing now, SlavOz? You've moved the goalposts so often I've lost track.

  • BrokenChairs on 29/03/2020 - 03:26
    +11

    Pretty embarrassed to be part of a community that voices such intolerant, self righteous, and privileged opinions as seen in this thread. Y'all should be ashamed ozbargain.

    Economists have been recommending an increase in welfare payments for a long time - it's pig headed ignorance and bigotry that demonizes the recipients of these payments as 'bludgers'.

    I don't particularly want to wish Ill fortune on anyone, but perhaps having some first hand experience in trying to live off welfare payments may lead to some more compassion around here.

    • Rashed on 29/03/2020 - 10:41

      You are right, not everyone who’s on welfare are bludgers. But there are many who are, there are ppl who is comfortable with what they get from welfare, and never wants to work, ever. “ Economists have been recommending an increase in welfare payments for a long time“ - welfare should only provide for bare minimum. Do you know they are recommending this? And did they also say where should this money come from? I have seen individuals who work, are struggling, they don’t get benefits from Centrelink, did economists also recommend reducing personal income tax?

      • BrokenChairs on 29/03/2020 - 15:22
        +5

        Do you have any stats on 'dole bludgers' vs genuine newstart recipients? Or is it an opinion based on anecdote and prejudice?

        I'd argue the whole concept of dole bludger is a fable, born out of political narrative. Sure there may be a couple of anecdotal stories of "dole bludgers" but by large the pre-stimulus new start payment is so low that the vast majority of recipients would be nowhere near coasting by comfortably.

        I'd argue that the majority of newstart recipients are genuine, despise their predicament, and would like a full time job ASAP. The average newstart recipient lives off $40 per day, before rent and utilities. The Australian Council of Social Services (ACOSS) suggests that this figure falls $96 per week short of covering basic necessities such as food, housing and transport. That sort of payment does nothing but suppress wage growth and perpetuates poverty.

        There's approx 1.8million people unemployed or underemployed chasing approx 150k jobs on offer at any one time (I imagine those job opportunities are drastically less now) - meaning there's literally never enough jobs to go around, no matter how hard you try.

        A third of all newstart recipients are older folk (50-55) not quite at an age of retirement, but often looked over in recruitment processes due to their age. Particularly for low skilled jobs. Young newstart recipients (under 25) stay on the dole for an average of 43 weeks, whereas older newstart recipients (50+) on average stay on the dole for 110 weeks - over 2 years! These aren't dole bludgers, these are old people who are struggling to adapt to the changing nature of work.

        Australia has the 25th lowest spend on welfare out of 30 OECD nations. Newstart makes up a small proportion of Australia's overall welfare costs, accounting for approx 7% of total payments.

        If you want to learn more about the net economic benefit of increasing welfare payments and how it can be paid for, I suggest looking into some of the research and recommendations published by KPMG and Deloitte, amongst others. Here's a reasonable starting point for you:
        https://www2.deloitte.com/au/en/blog/economics-blog/2019/new…

        As for individuals who struggle while working - I'm not surprised at all, and I have a huge amount of sympathy for them. Underemployment is rampant and workers rights are often exploited. If they earn below a certain threshold they are eligible for centrelink payments and other benefits.

        • MementoMori on 14/04/2020 - 09:37

          Good analysis.

          What do you think is the larger cause of wage growth suppression - low amounts of Newstart or the massive increase of low skilled, low wage workers we've had over the last 10-15 years?

          I would argue the latter. I find it strange people can rarely see this…?

      • Diji on 29/03/2020 - 23:42
        +1

        You are right, not everyone who’s on welfare black are bludgers thieves. But there are many who are, there are ppl who is comfortable with what they get from welfare stealing, and never wants to work, ever.

        This is how you sound when you make prejudiced generalisations about a group of people.

        • Rashed on 29/03/2020 - 23:52

          Why are you bringing race into this? How are they the same?

          • Diji on 30/03/2020 - 00:33

            @Rashed: The logic is the same: generalising a group of people based on your prejudice against them.

            • Rashed on 30/03/2020 - 01:16
              +1

              @Diji: It's not the same one is race. Something we cannot change. The other is something we can… The logic is not the same.

              • Diji on 30/03/2020 - 01:35
                +2

                @Rashed: So we are allowed to say that Muslims are likely terrorists because they can convert to another religion?

                And that Catholics are all pedophiles or pedophile enablers?

                And that tradies are bogan drunkards?

                Every police officer is corrupt?

                The magnitude of seriousness and offensiveness is different in each of these examples for sure, but the logic isn't.

                It's certainly more socially acceptable to say that people on the dole are bludgers but you're making the same stupid generalisations as the other examples.

                • Rashed on 30/03/2020 - 01:49

                  @Diji: I must agree this is a better example, and you have made your point. I believe government should create a market/economy where everyone who wants to work, is able to get a well paid job, suitable for their skillset. University education for Australians should be free, as this will have create high skilled labour force. Government should brand the country, and its products, and services (similar to German cars, Japanese electronics, French wine, Swiss watch, Italian leather goods, and so on). Give tax breaks to companies who hire 80% of their labours from Australia (I mean 80 of all direct and indirect labour required too offer that product or service). Anyway, I got what you mean, we may have different views, but I respect yours.

    • SlavOz on 29/03/2020 - 12:36
      -3

      but perhaps having some first hand experience in trying to live off welfare payments may lead to some more compassion around here.

      Perhaps having some first hand experience in having to work your ass off to get ahead just so other people can bludge on your dime may lead to some more understanding.

      • BrokenChairs on 29/03/2020 - 13:55
        +11

        Been there done that… and yet I'm still compassionate.

        A perception that people are lazy, or doing less than what you've done to get "ahead" in spite of your personal struggles reeks of narcissism and a lack of understanding of structural poverty.

        • Rashed on 29/03/2020 - 16:56

          So Australian market is setup for structural poverty? I agree with you, the government should create jobs. Giving more money to ppl cannot be a solution. Australian education is super expensive, and people get into debt even before they start working. The alternate is trade, or labour work, again with all the manufacturer going overseas (for cheap labour, and better or zero tax rates), they are not looking good either. Government needs to focus into creating skilled workforce, and promoting our products to international market. German cars, Japanese electronics, Swiss watches, French wine. Australian what? Why don't the government invest, and promote science, medicine, technology, advanced manufacturing, nothing is stopping them to start more government owned corporations, hire local, and compete in world market. Ex: Australia Post is a fully government owned corporation. How about reduced tax rates for local producers/manufacturers/service providers with atleast 80% Australian workforce?

  • noshopping on 29/03/2020 - 06:29
    -4

    https://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/[email protected]/Lookup/5506.0Main+F…

    In 2016-2017, the Australian government collected $281 billion from total tax revenue.
    approx $112.4 billion (40.7%) was from individual returns.

    In 2016-2017, the Australian government spent $158.6 billion on social security and welfare.
    https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Depart…

    In a nutshell, everyone that is working right now (12 million) is working to subsidize the social security and welfare system.

    The year on year (YOY) increase on social security debt means that within 10 years, we will need 2 individuals working full time to subsidize the income of 1 person on welfare (e.g. newstart, pension, family benefits, austudy, disability, NDIS etc)

    Could explain why the government keeps raising pensioner age limits and making Jobseeker/newstart harder to collect.

    • JohnHowardsEyebrows on 29/03/2020 - 08:48
      +5

      Lazy, misleading commentary. Newstart is a tiny fraction of the total welfare bill.

      • noshopping on 29/03/2020 - 10:37

        Read it again.
        "social security and welfare"

        • JohnHowardsEyebrows on 29/03/2020 - 18:18
          +4

          My criticism stands - you used 'social security and welfare' as a proxy for 'dole bludgers', when in fact the 'dole bludgers' cost hardly any of that amount. It was misleading.

      • ruddiger7 on 29/03/2020 - 11:28
        -1

        It's jobseeker payment now. Newstart is no longer a thing as of 20 March 2020. Basically the same thing though.

    • triviums on 29/03/2020 - 12:33
      +2

      Maybe if they put in a new tax bracket for the top 1% of Australians and closed the loopholes that allow multi-national corporations to pay $0 in tax they would have enough money that social security and welfare wasn't such a burden to taxpayers.

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