Traffic Penalty $457- Proceeded through Amber Traffic Light (NSW) - Cancelled

Killerbala on 24/11/2019 - 22:58
Last edited 04/12/2019 - 17:09 by 1 other user

Hello Oz-mate's,

Sorry to bother you all today- I know everyone is busy ordering Mavic Pro, but I need your help in drafting my review.

Received a surprise gift from NSW Revenue to pay up $457 for running a red light. Based on past forums, I do know that we get stung for running an amber. Haven't had any offence on my name (Migrated to Australia 5 years ago) and I hope it stays that way.

My view is that the camera mistook me for traffic going straight(based on the time since red shows around 14sec) but I was turning left. Attached photos along with the dash-cam video and let me know if I have a chance.

Not sure if I can upload dashcam video in the review process or should I just go with the pictures ?

Link to pictures

Link to Dashcam Video

Update - Added penalty notice which might clear-up few confusions in the thread.

Link to penalty notice

My mate found this

What if I entered the intersection on a yellow (amber) light?Revenue NSW reviews all images and will only take enforcement action when it is clear that a vehicle has proceeded through a red light at an intersection.

Update 27/11/2019-14:00

As suggested by UFO in the thread, gave them a ring few minutes back. 1st Operator stated that the review was just closed and the fine still stands. Reason will be notified in email shortly(it takes 24 hours for the system to process it)

Asked her to check the photo and explain why it still stands, while she was reading the response email(which im yet to get) she said its a bit confusing and asked if she can transfer me to a senior or specialized team.

Senior operator had the same light bulb moment and she explained the camera went off because I was in the 24 hour bus lane while making the turn. Informed her but we can use the bus lane within 100m which she agreed but in this intersection its a 24HR bus lane and I'm supposed to make the left turn from lane 2 not from lane 1(Bus lane). She was very helpful and raised an internal re-check request for the fine issued which might be reverted to using bus lane offence. And if that happens I might have to use my dashcam video to prove that I entered the lane within 100m.

Attached review response.

Link to Review notice

Final Update

They cancelled the penalty and thanks all for the inputs. Also no kid was in the car, it was a request from my mate to add that comment. To test if masses view can be altered by adding a child to a story. No kids have been harmed.

Link to Final Review notice

Thanks & Appreciate your help :-)

Poll Options

  • 8
    Penalty should stand
  • 2
    Had time to stop safely
  • 4
    No time to Stop safely
Automotive

Comments

    • John Kimble on 25/11/2019 - 10:20
      +7

      Yes, it is technically an offence to proceed through an amber if it is safe to stop, but you are 100% wrong in your understanding of how red light cameras work. They do not take pictures, you do not get a fine for ambers from fixed red light cameras.

      You would only get it from a (profanity) cop.

      Trust me, I'm a cop, you idiot!

      • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 25/11/2019 - 10:24

        You would only get it from a (profanity) cop.

        Incorrect. If the turn arrow is yellow and the proceed is red, it's flagged for manual review, gets eyeballed and the fine is issued if they didn't stop in the second photo.

        • John Kimble on 25/11/2019 - 10:28
          +2

          Hahaha so wrong mate. I can't even comprehend the number of photos that each camera would take and the number of eyeballs needed if they took photos of all cars going through ambers in the situation you specify.

          What happens in the reverse situation? A red arrow and a yellow straight? Are you saying the rules are different??? Haha

          I thought you had quit this thread?

          • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 25/11/2019 - 10:41

            @John Kimble: Yeah it's almost like NSW would need an image verification service contractor to handle their 190+ fixed cameras. Oh wait. They do use one.

            :)

          • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 25/11/2019 - 10:44

            @John Kimble:

            What happens in the reverse situation? A red arrow and a yellow straight?

            As you rightly know, nothing happens. Feel free to let everyone know they can ignore the traffic arrow as long as the proceed light is anything but red. That'll surely make the roads safer :)

    • Deridas on 25/11/2019 - 11:38
      +1

      Zeggie I thought you said you're out? Do us a favour and do so. Look at the negs you're getting. Get a hint.

      • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 25/11/2019 - 11:50

        I couldn't resist replying to John Kimble, who claims to be a cop, yet seems unaware of the existence of Strawberry Hills centre - where this stuff is reviewed. Every picture. Either by staff or the external contractor.

        • John Kimble on 25/11/2019 - 16:42

          That's not what I said. You need to read the complete post.

          I can't even comprehend the number of photos that each camera would take and the number of eyeballs needed if they took photos of all cars going through ambers in the situation you specify.

  • CocaKoala on 25/11/2019 - 10:19
    +6

    OP, do not pay the fine. This is the first traffic fine case on ozbargain that I see is "not at fault". Definitely appeal, and you should be in the clear. All the best to you.

    • Killerbala on 25/11/2019 - 11:28

      LOL- Will I win a prize for that ?

      • mubd1234 on 27/11/2019 - 07:51

        You get a 100% discount at NSW Revenue by applying the coupon code "The light was yellow, sir"

  • OzHunterNSW on 25/11/2019 - 10:19
    -4

    ?… so you went through an amber light…. but 14s later, a red light camera snaps you in the process!
    Must have been a big corner. The camera would only trigger once it has detected you passing through the intersection.
    Cant be bothered with your dash cam… just stick to the rules or you could kill some one.

    • Skramit on 25/11/2019 - 10:44

      but 14s later

      what are you talking about?

  • Cheeper on 25/11/2019 - 10:37
    -1

    When you enlarge the top left corner of the second image you can see that you are turning left and you have a GREEN arrow.
    Tell them to stick their fine where the sun does not shine… !! LOL
    Can't see an indicator flash in either of the pics though?… Hope that is not a sign of the hip "never indicate" trend?

    • John Kimble on 25/11/2019 - 10:38
      +2

      Maybe watch the video

      • Cheeper on 25/11/2019 - 10:48

        Maybe you enlarge the still shots and tell me what colour the arrow is???

        • John Kimble on 25/11/2019 - 10:48

          I honestly can't tell, quality is too low.

          I would say yellow based on the position on the light stack itself.

          • Cheeper on 25/11/2019 - 10:59
            +2

            @John Kimble: I downloaded both images and expanded them and the turn arrow shows as green.
            It could be something to do with the images though :-( … the illuminated turn arrow is the middle one which would be amber.

            Regardless…………….
            In the video it does show him completing the turn on amber.
            The FINE says he drove through a RED light. The fine is 100% wrong.

            No argument…

            To those people who think an amber light is the same as a red light…. think about this.. there would be no amber lights if they were intended to be the same as red lights…
            Amber means stop if it is safe to do so..

            • Cheeper on 25/11/2019 - 11:12

              @Cheeper: also….
              The video date/time is different to the fine and still pics. Nothing unusual for dashcams to be this way though :-)
              Can hear the indicator clicking in the video.. my apology for the previous comment..

              • Davo1111 on 25/11/2019 - 12:46
                +2

                @Cheeper:

                The video date/time is different to the fine and still pics. Nothing unusual for dashcams to be this way though :-)

                i put on my skepticism hat on this, but you can see the red hatch in both the video and pic.

                • lysp on 26/11/2019 - 11:59

                  @Davo1111: Spot on.

                  Also at the cross intersection you can see the lights of the 3 stopped cars: white - orange - white. This matches in both video and photo.

  • wiipantz on 25/11/2019 - 10:40

    Fight it. Although I reckon they will stiff you on the vagaries of the road rules, Amber lights and safety ect. If anything they might not record the demerits but still apply the fine. I had something similar in Qld with speeding, I got puled over no camera no witness aside the cop who rekons I was going too fast(opinion and no recording device). I took it to court the judge rules with the officer but as no evidence didn't apply demerits but still applied the fine ( I sought out representation as I thought this was a farce). Actually not similar but I feel your case might go that way :/ I dunno, but good luck.

  • Alexaxis on 25/11/2019 - 10:44
    -7

    you wont stand a chance even to dispute the case, yellow light stands the same effect as red. Unless you can prove that the camera was not caliberated up-to-date,sorry but have to revenue the gov.

    • Cheeper on 25/11/2019 - 11:00
      +1

      You need to look up the road rules…

    • CocaKoala on 25/11/2019 - 17:45
      +1

      Actually, it's quite the opposite. The op will come in the clear if they appeal.

  • lint on 25/11/2019 - 10:55
    +1

    I think it's worth trying for a review based on the evidence. If they say "Well, you shouldn't have run the yellow" then oh well at least you gave it a shot.

    The fact that the red light camera appears to have assumed you were proceeding ahead against the red light is pretty good evidence it was captured in error.

    • Cheeper on 25/11/2019 - 11:13
      -3

      You can proceed through an amber… no law against it. I do it many times a day and have done so for over 50 yrs.

      • John Kimble on 25/11/2019 - 11:16

        There is a law against it, just doesn't get enforced by these cameras…and rarely gets enforced overall.

      • Jclass on 25/11/2019 - 11:23
        +2

        You should go back to driving school

        • Cheeper on 25/11/2019 - 11:32

          "A yellow (amber) traffic light or arrow means stop. A driver approaching traffic lights showing a yellow traffic light must stop if the driver can stop safely before reaching the stop line or traffic lights. Penalties apply for drivers who fail to stop at a yellow light, unless it is unsafe to do so."

          So according to the ? experts here… if you are approaching a controlled intersection and when you are 5 meters away from the light traveling at say 60 kph and it changes to amber then you must stop before the line??
          That would be hilarous …!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          They have an amber light for a reason…. Think about it for a while….

          • John Kimble on 25/11/2019 - 11:41
            +2

            @Cheeper:

            So according to the ? experts here… if you are approaching a controlled intersection and when you are 5 meters away from the light traveling at say 60 kph and it changes to amber then you must stop before the line??

            No, because that would likely be unsafe.

          • Davo1111 on 25/11/2019 - 12:54
            -1

            @Cheeper:

            So according to the ? experts here…

            you're missing the order of operations here.

            If it's yellow, you must stop. UNLESS it's unsafe to do so.

            The default is to stop.

          • Amaris on 25/11/2019 - 17:37
            +1

            @Cheeper: But the penalty notice says he ran a RED light and not an AMBER light!

  • prinsenhof on 25/11/2019 - 11:14
    +3

    You should get off that. You would of had to slam your brakes on to stop on that amber. Lucky you had the dash cam, just paid for itself.

  • paul_5666 on 25/11/2019 - 11:29
    +2

    These new cameras also record some video of the offence. Don't muddy the waters with your dash cam footage, esp with the different date and time. Ask for a review, stating that the photograph shows the left turn light as amber as you entered the intersection to make a left turn. Therefore you did not commit the offence as stated in the fine.
    Someone at Revenue NSW will review the photo and video footage they have and the fine should be withdrawn. Good luck OP. The camera seems incorrectly configured if it is triggering in lane 1 when Lane 1 can turn left with a different light to the through direction.

  • Kamsi on 25/11/2019 - 11:50

    To OP go for it. I think you have a better chance winning.

  • andyken on 25/11/2019 - 11:50
    +1

    IMO, the penalty said "proceed through the red traffic light" which is clearly not, unless it said "proceed through the amber light" and the camera triggers the sensor of red light (middle lane) not turn left, I'm pretty sure you can win and they need to fix this camera!

  • Androo305 on 25/11/2019 - 12:14
    +1

    The lane looks like it was re-surfaced, incorrect sensor behaviour or programming could be wrong.

    Good luck!

  • Kranbone on 25/11/2019 - 12:24

    I dislike the fine but if you appealed, would they not be able to use the evidence submitted to show that you ran an amber light when it was safe to stop?

    • John Kimble on 25/11/2019 - 12:36

      No

    • paul_5666 on 25/11/2019 - 12:37

      I don't think there is an offence code in the system for a camera detected amber light offence. Furthermore, I haven't checked, but it's possible that the legislation for the enforcement camera only allows its to detect and issue fines for red light offences. I think it would be unlikely for the fine to be reissued.

  • Davo1111 on 25/11/2019 - 13:02
    +1

    I gave you sh*t yesterday. but looking at the video footage again, i think you've got a reasonable argument that the light is faulty.

    • Fysh on 25/11/2019 - 15:49

      You mean the footage from the wrong day ?

      • Davo1111 on 25/11/2019 - 16:12
        +2

        The red car turning right is visible in the photo (and no other cars). Seems pretty unlikely to be caught breaking a red on two consecutive days, with a single vehicle at the exact location in both instances.

      • Killerbala on 25/11/2019 - 18:13

        unless I’m doing laps everyday with my buddy in the red car coordinating for a penalty that we anticipate next day. Ya the dash cam footage is not real or this may be the proof that we live in a stimulation.

    • Euphemistic on 25/11/2019 - 16:49

      More that the camera is faulty, the lights seem to work just fine - except for the stopping cars bit.

      • Davo1111 on 25/11/2019 - 17:43

        time on yellow seems a bit short to me. It's claimed in the camera it should be 4

        • Euphemistic on 25/11/2019 - 18:24

          By my count the video showed 3sec of yellow before it goes out of view. It is most likely that it was 4s.

  • SpotTheOzzie on 25/11/2019 - 13:40

    You'll get off because you set off the middle sensor.

    But adjust your driving craft, you clearly tried to beat the amber here hence why you set off the middle lanes transponder.

    • John Kimble on 25/11/2019 - 13:42
      +1

      Why do the photos say Lane 1 then?

      • skid on 25/11/2019 - 15:07

        I think the road was recently widened (the lane lines have not been painted yet) and the camera hasn't been updated.

        • John Kimble on 25/11/2019 - 15:17

          I like your thinking, but it doesn't seem like it checking Google Maps history. It has been resurfaced though it seems.

          Also, you would hope if it was due to widening, one of the first things to update is the camera to avoid such false positives.

      • Davo1111 on 25/11/2019 - 15:17

        i did a google image search of NSW red light fines, and it appears the lanes are counted left to right and include turning lanes.

        • John Kimble on 25/11/2019 - 15:19

          Yeah I know, what point you are trying to make though?

          • Davo1111 on 25/11/2019 - 15:21
            +1

            @John Kimble: ahh we are in agreement, thought i was replying to the other guy. [sorry]

  • SlavOz on 25/11/2019 - 13:45

    Definitely fight it, but don't get your hopes up. When the NSW government needs money they'll make sure they get it out of you, justified or not.

  • dji1111111 on 25/11/2019 - 13:50
    +1

    Can't be bothered to check if there are differences between QLD and NSW road rules but I was once fined for running red light at an intersection because I was going to turn right but changed my mind at the last minute and decided to change to the middle lane and in the process I clipped the stop line in the right turn lane with my front right tyre. The camera photos also showed my car heading straight with green light clearly showing.

    I wrote a letter explaining this and argued that they are free to fine me for crossing the solid line but I shouldn't be fined for running red light. They withdrew the fine and didn't fine me for clipping the solid line at the intersection.

  • TEER3X on 25/11/2019 - 14:01
    +2

    Where the fkn poll? How dare you start a thread without the obligatory poll.

    If this doesn't get overturned, we are all fked. Clearly not a fine, light was amber.

  • rave75 on 25/11/2019 - 14:52

    Keep us posted how you go, you shouldn't get fined for this, all the best OP.

  • DrRalph on 25/11/2019 - 15:25
    -3

    Fine should stand.

  • Fysh on 25/11/2019 - 15:36
    +1

    What the hell is going on here the dash footage is from 14th the offence 15th? Show us the real footage.

    • ShortyX on 25/11/2019 - 16:18

      Show us the real footage.

      It is the real footage - the dashcam has the incorrect date and time.

      https://www.ozbargain.com.au/comment/8010530/redir

      • Scott69 on 25/11/2019 - 16:41
        -2

        The court won't accept that as evidence with the incorrect date and time on the dash cam.

        • Deridas on 25/11/2019 - 16:45

          IANAL, but why wouldn't the court accept that? It's easy to have the wrong calibrated time + OP doesn't need the clip to prove his case.

        • DogGunn on 25/11/2019 - 16:50

          Why not?

          • Fysh on 25/11/2019 - 17:02

            @DogGunn: ok good , the fact the red car is in there proves this. in this case id say he needs to dispute for review without footage but say he has it and he should get off.

        • CocaKoala on 26/11/2019 - 14:26

          Nonsense. The OP could just erase the date from the video and could claim date/time isn't overlayed on the recordings.

        • Technics on 27/11/2019 - 10:42

          Dash cam is displaying GMT time zone. It's fine as evidence.

  • Obkay on 25/11/2019 - 15:39
    +1

    Definitely contest it, if the review doesnt work request a court date.

    Even if the judge finds you guilty, the penalty for disobeying a red/amber arrow is different to the regular red/amber light.

    • John Kimble on 25/11/2019 - 16:01

      the penalty for disobeying a red/amber arrow is different to the regular red/amber light.

      Source please?

      Edit: found it myself

      https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/index.cgi?action=demeritp…

      All looks same same to me? Only differences a slightly different section of the same road rules.

      I can see are that it's worse when it's a school zone for all offences?

      • Obkay on 25/11/2019 - 18:58
        +1

        Same fine value but different penalty code. So on a technicality OP should be let off as they have fined him for an offence he didnt commit.

  • lltravel on 25/11/2019 - 16:17

    contest that in court. I would have run that orange too.

  • Scott69 on 25/11/2019 - 16:40

    I don't think your dash cam is going to help as it has a different date and time displayed.

    • DogGunn on 25/11/2019 - 16:47
      +1

      Even if the timing is wrong (which in all likelihood it is), it clearly shows the camera taking photos when they're turning on a yellow light. The 2 photos also show the yellow traffic arrow - so I would think it would help, even if they are two separate events (they're not judging by the turn though).

  • THL on 25/11/2019 - 16:43
    +4

    Again, you always get the so called 'internet road rules expert' when you see these type of topics on Ozbargain that gives you false interpretation/advice.

    "In NSW cameras also trigger for yellow arrows. It states it's an offence in the Rules."

    That is just not true. Yes it is an offence if the light turns amber and you had sufficient time to stop safely but you didn't. Cops can pull you over for that. Red light cameras however, DOES NOT book you if you cross the stop line as soon as the light turns yellow. Can you imagine the number of tickets that'll be issued if that's the case? How is that even physically possible that they expect you to stop before the stop line when the lights are still green?

    Regardless of my rant above, if the video you provided is linked to the correct timing of the fine you received, just send it through and challenge it. It won't hurt you chances. Good luck

  • DogGunn on 25/11/2019 - 16:43
    +1

    That camera needs to be fixed up. You won't be alone, and there are likely others that didn't notice the mistake and have paid up despite not committing the offence they've been fined for.

    You clearly entered on the yellow, while the camera thought you entered on the red (it never takes a photo for yellow light offences, only for speeding or red light offences) - so you need to write in to the SDRO and request a review as there has been a mistake - include evidence from your dashcam:
    https://www.revenue.nsw.gov.au/fines-and-fees/request-a-revi…

    Obviously don't be rude, but be stern. It'll very likely be withdrawn.

    Perhaps also forward that onto some media organisation, and it'll get the authorities to look into it and hopefully withdraw yours and others, and refund anyone else that had paid up for a similar non-offence.

  • superuser on 25/11/2019 - 16:59

    In my opinion, something is wrong with the red light camera,
    AFAIK red light only takes photos when the light is red not yellow (amber)
    you should contest it and good luck.
    These red light cameras are for revenue raising for sure,
    when i can't sleep at night i go around using sling shot and hit the camera glass :)

    • Ughhh on 25/11/2019 - 17:06

      when i can't sleep at night i go around using sling shot and hit the camera glass :)

      Thanks, I'll feel more at ease knowing I can speed through the intersection at 100kmph or run a red light without having to worry about fines.

  • bonz on 25/11/2019 - 17:12
    +1

    I know this intersection, lane 1 is a bus lane, some drivers are afraid to move into the bus lane to turn left until the last few metres which is exactly what OP did in this case. If you watch the dash cam footage again you can see roughly 1/4 the width of the car was still in lane 2 just before the stop line while maneuvering to lane 1, that's why the sensor picked up the car's presence in lane 1 for a split second, hence it thinks a vehicle proceeded through the red in lane 2

    OP, you definitely have a case here you can supply the dash cam footage to support your case, if they do not let you upload the footage ask them to review the bus lane camera located just some metres before the red light camera, hopefully there's a clip of yours at that moment

    In hindsight had you moved into the bus lane much earlier you would not have triggered the camera ( you are permitted to enter the bus lane for 100m immediately before the turn )

    • Killerbala on 25/11/2019 - 17:41
      +2

      But in the pictures provided by revenue NSW it states lane 1 and in the notice the direction of travel is easterly which is the left lane.

      • bonz on 25/11/2019 - 19:49

        My only speculation on the lane 1 notation is because your car was the only thing there at that moment and it was in lane 1, they couldn't say lane 2 because there was nothing in the straight through lane in that pic.

        Your 2nd statement on the easterly travel reconfirms the fine is wrong because you were turning left which is in the northerly direction. Had you gone straight through the intersection then you would be deemed to be running the red

  • Afreakinspreadsheets on 25/11/2019 - 17:13
    -1

    Based on the RMS traffic light rules in NSW, the dashcam clearly shows that you broke the law. See the link below:

    https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/safety-rules/road-rules/tra…

    • DogGunn on 25/11/2019 - 17:15
      +1

      Even if that is the case, they haven't been fined for that, nor do red light cameras in NSW fine for that. So until such a time as they are alleged to have committed that offence by the police, it is irrelevant.

      • Afreakinspreadsheets on 25/11/2019 - 17:22

        Who's they? Crossing an amber light in NSW is an offence, and rules shouldn't be eased just because a police officer isn't there to witness it.

        • DogGunn on 25/11/2019 - 17:28

          What is your point?

          They broke the law… now what?

        • Amaris on 25/11/2019 - 17:41

          The fine is for crossing a RED light. Clearly the light was AMBER when he crossed it. If he committed the offence of illegally crossing an amber light, he should've been issued the fine for that offence.

        • locknuts on 25/11/2019 - 17:56

          So he should get that fine. Not the red light fine. A lawyer would have a field day.

          • Amaris on 25/11/2019 - 22:56
            +2

            @locknuts: That he should get a fine for running an amber light irrelevant to this case

    • THL on 25/11/2019 - 18:11
      +1

      Oh god here we go again. Yes it is an offence if the car is unable to stop safely before the light turns red. Yes it appears OP had enough time to stop but he didn't run a red. He got fined for running a RED LIGHT not amber light, which it appears he did not (based on the footage provided).

      End of Story.

  • groot on 25/11/2019 - 17:15

    Worth fighting. You should be safe

  • eggboi on 25/11/2019 - 17:36

    don't even need to take this to court and waste your time and taxpayers money. just send in your dashcam footage and also point out that their own photos show you did not proceed through a red light. the listed offence is "proceeded through a red light" and you did not do that. no opinions matter regarding how long the light was yellow. they falsely claimed you went through a red light and you clearly didn't. done and dusted.

  • locknuts on 25/11/2019 - 17:55
    +1

    Fine says you ran a red light. You didn't. Should be end of story.

  • tcme on 25/11/2019 - 18:23
    +3

    Law graduate here:

    DO NOT SEND IN THE FOOTAGE. The pictures show quite clearly you did not 'run a red light'. They will withdraw it because of this.

    By sending in the footage, although they will inevitably withdraw the ticket, they may just reissue one for you running the amber. This is because your footage shows you could have stopped if you wanted to, but didn't.

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