Traffic Penalty $457- Proceeded through Amber Traffic Light (NSW) - Cancelled

Killerbala on 24/11/2019 - 22:58
Last edited 04/12/2019 - 17:09 by 1 other user

Hello Oz-mate's,

Sorry to bother you all today- I know everyone is busy ordering Mavic Pro, but I need your help in drafting my review.

Received a surprise gift from NSW Revenue to pay up $457 for running a red light. Based on past forums, I do know that we get stung for running an amber. Haven't had any offence on my name (Migrated to Australia 5 years ago) and I hope it stays that way.

My view is that the camera mistook me for traffic going straight(based on the time since red shows around 14sec) but I was turning left. Attached photos along with the dash-cam video and let me know if I have a chance.

Not sure if I can upload dashcam video in the review process or should I just go with the pictures ?

Link to pictures

Link to Dashcam Video

Update - Added penalty notice which might clear-up few confusions in the thread.

Link to penalty notice

My mate found this

What if I entered the intersection on a yellow (amber) light?Revenue NSW reviews all images and will only take enforcement action when it is clear that a vehicle has proceeded through a red light at an intersection.

Update 27/11/2019-14:00

As suggested by UFO in the thread, gave them a ring few minutes back. 1st Operator stated that the review was just closed and the fine still stands. Reason will be notified in email shortly(it takes 24 hours for the system to process it)

Asked her to check the photo and explain why it still stands, while she was reading the response email(which im yet to get) she said its a bit confusing and asked if she can transfer me to a senior or specialized team.

Senior operator had the same light bulb moment and she explained the camera went off because I was in the 24 hour bus lane while making the turn. Informed her but we can use the bus lane within 100m which she agreed but in this intersection its a 24HR bus lane and I'm supposed to make the left turn from lane 2 not from lane 1(Bus lane). She was very helpful and raised an internal re-check request for the fine issued which might be reverted to using bus lane offence. And if that happens I might have to use my dashcam video to prove that I entered the lane within 100m.

Attached review response.

Link to Review notice

Final Update

They cancelled the penalty and thanks all for the inputs. Also no kid was in the car, it was a request from my mate to add that comment. To test if masses view can be altered by adding a child to a story. No kids have been harmed.

Link to Final Review notice

Thanks & Appreciate your help :-)

Poll Options

  • 8
    Penalty should stand
  • 2
    Had time to stop safely
  • 4
    No time to Stop safely
Automotive

Comments

    • gromit on 25/11/2019 - 16:27

      It is 11 hours off not 12. Though this could definitely be explained by the dashcam showing UTC time rather than localtime.

  • [Deactivated] on 25/11/2019 - 01:02

    With the amount of scumbags on the road I'd give you a pass, especially when most of them do not know how to use a forum.

  • pinchies on 25/11/2019 - 01:17
    +12

    I would simply say that you were turning left, and did not have a red light during that turn, and that the left arrow was amber at the time that the lights flashed. No need to submit video yet.

    • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 25/11/2019 - 09:26
      -5

      Except that entering when an arrow is yellow is an offence in NSW.

      • bobz79 on 25/11/2019 - 09:52
        +6

        Not always.. depends on whether it is practical and safe to stop!

          • bobz79 on 25/11/2019 - 09:58
            +6

            @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: Read again… "and the driver can stop safely before reaching the stop line"

            • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 25/11/2019 - 10:12
              -1

              @bobz79: OP was doing 21km/h. You telling me they couldn't stop safely?

              • bobz79 on 25/11/2019 - 10:19
                +11

                @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: I am stating the law, not whether he could stop or not! Let them prove he couldn't… with evidence!

                Give him a break, it was a split second decision and everyone makes mistakes once in a while!

                He is here looking for help, not judgement from morally superior ozbs who follows every rule by the book :-)

                • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 25/11/2019 - 10:28
                  -3

                  @bobz79: Yeah except this is a strict liability offence so OP has to prove he's innocent. With evidence. Not the way you're suggesting.

              • abb on 25/11/2019 - 13:59
                +3

                @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: At the time the light changed, OP was doing 53km/h.

                Per this page about stopping distances, that's a 35m stopping distance, when OP is no more than 24m (2x white dashes) from the intersection.

                If OP knew the light was going to change in, yes, he could stop. Using only the information received at the time, it was not practical for him to stop. He may have been able to slam the brakes and just barely stop in time, but that's silly, no-one does that (nor should they).

                • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 25/11/2019 - 14:36

                  @abb: No. They were already braking prior to the arrow change. Refer their own dash cam.

                  • abb on 25/11/2019 - 15:02
                    +1

                    @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: Yes, they were braking to turn the corner. This doesn't change the fact that their brain still needs time to register the light changing from green to orange.

              • R-Man on 25/11/2019 - 18:32

                @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: Your previous comment arrogantly said "yes always" why have you changed your position?

      • Euphemistic on 25/11/2019 - 09:53
        +3

        Even so, they are likely to withdraw the red light offence and not reissue.

        • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 25/11/2019 - 09:57
          -1

          We don't know that OP was fined with a red light offence. They likely have read their notice incorrectly. Both offences are in the same section of the Rules.

      • ginormousgiraffe on 25/11/2019 - 11:15

        but a red light camera is not supposed to book people for going through an amber light.

        there are too many variables that can't be assessed without a cop seeing it, thus he should not get fined.

  • paraneoplastic on 25/11/2019 - 02:50
    -4

    A few things to note:

    The fine image shows
    - The Amber light on the colour light when you crossed the line
    - you were NOT indicating left when making a left turn

    Dash cam footage shows
    - https://imgur.com/a/LtiP1ob (from that point (exact time light changes to amber) you have 2 seconds to brake @50km/hr so ~28m of braking distance when to stop @50km/hr assuming you have <1s reaction time requires 25 - 35m, if they did the calculation, this could screw you over or be a compelling argument (depends on their calculation method).
    - different time and date (but you could easily crop that bit out of the video
    - confirms you did not indicate

    This is a tricky one, but assuming you're a young person, you likely did have enough distance to brake and stop, as in those 2 seconds from when the light changed to amber you did speed up. In saying that though, i would've done the same thing you did - not as if you risked anyone elses life or put anyone else in danger.

    • whooah1979 on 25/11/2019 - 05:10
      +1

      2 seconds from when the light changed to amber you did speed up.

      Op got a fine for running a red light. They have every right to challenge the fine based on the evidence they have.

      • paraneoplastic on 25/11/2019 - 05:21

        Yellow and red light fine is the same…

        Source: https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/roads/safety-rules/deme…

        Even if it is changed from running red to running yellow (And legally it should be changed) OP still gets fined thr 457 + 3 demerit points for not stopping at yellow + if he submits for review the DC footage, risks getting picked up for not signalling when turning (as an additional fine)

        • whooah1979 on 25/11/2019 - 05:31

          running yellow (And legally it should be changed) OP still gets fined thr 457 + 3 demerit points for not stopping at yellow
          risks getting picked up for not signalling when turning (as an additional fine)

          Op may have the opportunity for review/hearing if they decide to issue a fine for that.

        • whooah1979 on 25/11/2019 - 06:12
          +5

          not signalling when turning

          Tick tock, tick tock. Anyone with a good 👂 may clearly hear that an indicator was on at both turns.

          • paraneoplastic on 25/11/2019 - 13:03

            @whooah1979: you're right, was watching it on silent at work, my bad - everything else i said still stands though

            he did have enough stopping distances according to my calc

        • DogGunn on 25/11/2019 - 16:37
          +3

          Red light cameras cannot fine for a yellow light offence.

          If it's not a red light offence or speed offence issued as a result of the traffic camera, then it is dropped.

    • peco on 25/11/2019 - 05:57
      +7

      You can't use two photos to conclude OP didn't indicate.

      confirms you did not indicate

      Watch it again, you can hear that OP did in fact indicate.

  • Euphemistic on 25/11/2019 - 06:20
    +3

    I just want to know why the photos are so dark while the video is nice and clear.

    • peco on 25/11/2019 - 06:24
      +2

      Happens when using a flash.

    • abb on 25/11/2019 - 14:02

      The red light camera is set up to take single exposures using the same settings that work day and night.

      The dash cam is continuously tweaking its exposure based on what it sees.

      • Euphemistic on 25/11/2019 - 14:05

        Then they need to get with the times and start using better tech in their cameras. A better exposure would provide significantly better evidence.

        • abb on 25/11/2019 - 14:13

          What better tech? They use good quality SLR cameras and very powerful flashes. I assure you if they swapped the camera with OP's dash cam you would not be able to read the plate clearly (which is most of the requirement).

          What evidence would a perfect exposure show that this shot does not show?

  • elgrande on 25/11/2019 - 06:25
    +11

    The fine should go to the guy who drops his water bottle at the start of the video.

  • John Kimble on 25/11/2019 - 06:42
    +2

    My view is that the camera mistook me for traffic going straight(based on the time since red shows around 14sec) but I was turning left.

    Something is weird here. The photos say "Lane 1" so you did trigger the lane you were in, not the lanes going straight (which should be Lane >= 2).

    Photos also says light was red for 14 seconds…which is clearly wrong after viewing your video.

    Should be able to get off based on the fact you turned left, maybe the sensor needs to be recalibrated?

    • Euphemistic on 25/11/2019 - 08:28
      +2

      The straight ahead light was probably red for 14s. The left arrow only turned orange before the hoon turned the corner and was visible as orange for around 3 seconds before disappearing from view.

    • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 25/11/2019 - 09:23

      Time SINCE red.

  • Skramit on 25/11/2019 - 08:16
    +5

    Challenge it, make your case politely and factually.

    Good luck.

      • Skramit on 25/11/2019 - 09:39
        +4

        The fact that the camera flashed while the arrow was still orange. Clearly the camera mistook the car as going straight. Badly tuned camera.

  • Austaurean on 25/11/2019 - 08:38
    -6

    I would say you are stuffed.
    The amber was clearly amber for a very extended period.
    While it was not red for 14 sec, as that's the other lane, it seemed to have turned red as you crossed.
    This is what triggered the red light camera. The flash is clearly visible.
    If you crossed the line when it was amber, then the camera would not have triggered.

    I had a light change and I had to come to a reasonably quick stop, but nothing too hard, but definitely had to react.
    plus if I had of gunned it, the light would have changed to red while travelling through the intersection, not at the line.
    So here I am sitting stationary at a RED light and a good long 2 seconds later a car under load zooms through, then another couple of seconds and another car again under load zooms though. No intent on stopping… Great way to have 1.5ton of metal at 80k/h through a red while the other direction has a green, just plain lucky they didn't hit anyone as its normally a busier intersection.

    • Skramit on 25/11/2019 - 09:03

      No way. Watch the video again. The arrow is still amber as his car turns away from it and has mostly completed the turn. To highlight this, watch that the camera flashes while the arrow is still amber. Meaning the camera flashed for the straight through red light.

      OP definitely has a case, and he should also give them feedback to re-tune their camera as it's clearly flashed for a legal left turn.

  • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 25/11/2019 - 09:21
    -7

    OP is obviously misreading their fine. The same section is referenced for either failing to stop for red regular OR yellow arrow I'm unaware if NSW fines reference subsections but unlikely. Moot point anyways.

    The camera is operating correctly. It specifically references lane 1 and the time the turning light was programmed to be yellow.

    OP clearly slowed down when merging left. Even their dash cam referenced 53km down to 21km. They could have easily stopped.

    Call them up and pay it off $50 a week, move on, don't run a yellow again.

    • dave999 on 25/11/2019 - 09:57
      +2

      You have repeated this over and over again but i think you are wrong. The laws for a red light and a red arrow are the same. And the red light camera should only take a picture if you cross the line when the light is red. The Op simply did not do this.

      Nowhere in any of your comments do you address this. You can argue he didn't stop when he could of but the red light camera should not have been triggered - on the face of it the camera malfunctioned.

      • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 25/11/2019 - 10:00
        -3

        "A driver approaching or at traffic lights showing a yellow traffic light must stop"

        Care to explain how your interpretation differs from the very first line of the Rules?

        In NSW cameras also trigger for yellow arrows. It states it's an offence in the Rules. What further evidence do you want? So far your argument is "yeah na it malfunctioned" with no reference to anything to back up your claim.

    • Euphemistic on 25/11/2019 - 09:57

      The camera is operating correctly. It specifically references lane 1 and the time the turning light was programmed to be yellow.

      The camera is not working correctly. It references a red light for over 14s for lane one which clearly has a yellow light as the vehicles turns the corner.

      • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 25/11/2019 - 10:01

        Look at the traffic lights. How many illuminated lights do you see?

      • dave999 on 25/11/2019 - 10:02
        +2

        From the https://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/speeding/speedcamera… see section 6

        "The red-light detection function of the cameras is connected to the traffic lights and is activated when a vehicle crosses the white stop line after the lights have turned red. The camera is programmed to take photographs of the rear of any vehicle travelling over the stop line or entering the intersection after the lights have turned red. The camera is not triggered by vehicles crossing the stop line on yellow (amber) or green lights."

        • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 25/11/2019 - 10:03

          Cool. We are talking about yellow TURN lights.

          I've literally linked you the Road Rules that confirms as such.

          • dave999 on 25/11/2019 - 10:03

            @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: Where?

          • Euphemistic on 25/11/2019 - 10:17

            @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: Yes. Yellow turn signals which the camera will not activate for. The camera will not activate after the light is red, then it will take two images and records on those images how long the light was red for. In the two photos linked by the OP the red has been on for 13 and 14 seconds (and some decimals). The camera was clearly triggers for the offence of travelling through a red light for the straight through direction while the OP went through the orange left.

            • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 25/11/2019 - 10:21

              @Euphemistic:

              while the OP went through the orange left.

              ….which is an offence

              • Euphemistic on 25/11/2019 - 10:30
                +2

                @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: Yes. Which is an offence, but not one recorded by a camera.

                The camera is probably not set to record an amber light offence because it cannot subjectively determine if it was unsafe for the vehicle to stop.

                • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 25/11/2019 - 13:07

                  @Euphemistic: Here's a research project for you. You don't have to take my word for it. Try it yourself and see. I welcome anyone to try and report back.

                  Go to your nearest red light camera intersection with identical lights (ie. left turn arrow) as OP's.

                  In lane 1 wait for the proceed light to go red. Wait for the left turn arrow to go green. Turn left. Does the red light camera flash you?
                  Then try this:
                  In lane 1 wait for the proceed light to go red. Wait for the left turn arrow to go green. Go straight. Does the red light camera flash you?

                  I know the answer to both. I'll let you check for certainty.

                  I'd then suggest trying a third thing, do the above with a yellow left turn arrow, but we all know what will happen then ;)

                  • Euphemistic on 25/11/2019 - 13:29
                    +1

                    @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: I do t have time for that I’m fixing stuff on the internet.

                    • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 25/11/2019 - 13:35

                      @Euphemistic: No probs, but doing the above will prove to you independently that a yellow turn arrow does indeed trigger the red light camera.

                      Green turn arrow. Lane 1. No camera flash.

                      It also proves that as long as you have a green turn left arrow you can speed straight ahead through a red light from lane 1, without the camera triggering, but that's not something I really wanted to be public knowledge as someone in a rush might actually do this loophole and kill someone.

                      • Euphemistic on 25/11/2019 - 13:56
                        +1

                        @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: As much as what you have said might be correct. All the RMS information says that red lightning cameras are only triggered on a vehicle crossing the white line after the red is activated. If that means that they also have to process thousands of images of people legitimately turning left, then there is a ballsup in the system. No camera infringements are meant to be issued by a vehicle crossing (or turning) on a yellow. the OP did. Cross on a yellow so the system (or camera) is broken according to all their publications.

                        • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 25/11/2019 - 14:34

                          @Euphemistic: All photos are reviewed. Every single one. I'm not sure why anyone thinks otherwise.

                          Yellow turn left arrow and red proceed light means zero reason for entering the intersection. Thus why the camera is activated.

                          • field1985 on 25/11/2019 - 14:59

                            @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: Are you going for some kind of OzBargin record? 40 comments on a single post with over 50 downvotes and still going?

                            Get the point. You're wrong. Move on.

                          • Euphemistic on 25/11/2019 - 15:06
                            +1

                            @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: Then it is a broken system. It should not be creating work for those who need to review said photos, and assuming it is true that they do review them all, then whoever reviewed this one stuffed up because they issued a red light fine for not stopping on a yellow.

                          • John Kimble on 25/11/2019 - 16:47

                            @Typical16-bitEnjoyer:

                            All photos are reviewed. Every single one. I'm not sure why anyone thinks otherwise.

                            Not disputing this.

                            Yellow turn left arrow and red proceed light means zero reason for entering the intersection. Thus why the camera is activated.

                            Disputing this.

                      • John Kimble on 25/11/2019 - 16:48

                        @Typical16-bitEnjoyer:

                        It also proves that as long as you have a green turn left arrow you can speed straight ahead through a red light from lane 1, without the camera triggering, but that's not something I really wanted to be public knowledge as someone in a rush might actually do this loophole and kill someone.

                        If that was the case, it would surely be common knowledge or the loophole closed by now…or am I being too naive?

                        • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 25/11/2019 - 17:05
                          +1

                          @John Kimble: It's unfortunately fairly well known in Melbourne. I see it on occasion.

                          Another is often seen with the long lonely red lights late at night in the CBD when there's no traffic. Car will purposely pull up at a red and go over the line to trigger the camera. They won't move for a few seconds. After the second flash is emitted they'll gun it and be on their way through the red light.

                          • John Kimble on 25/11/2019 - 17:23
                            +1

                            @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: Seems like a big risk for little reward…

                            • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 25/11/2019 - 17:27
                              +1

                              @John Kimble: People are always in a rush. Especially in Melbourne.

                              Melbourne is however better since they increased the fines and penalties for business/corporate registered vehicles. Suddenly all those drivers, employees and business owners, know they can't escape demerit points through that previous loophole by claiming "they don't know who was driving at the time".

    • HighAndDry on 25/11/2019 - 10:01
      +8

      They're red light cameras. I'm not aware of there being any 'amber' light cameras anywhere.

      • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 25/11/2019 - 10:02
        -5

        Yellow turn lights trigger the cameras in NSW.

        • dave999 on 25/11/2019 - 10:04
          +4

          Where? Where do you get this information? All information contradicts this

          • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 25/11/2019 - 10:05
            -1

            @dave999: State a single piece of information that contradicts:

            1. Entering on a yellow turn arrow is an offence
            2. Cameras don't capture yellow turn offences.
            • dave999 on 25/11/2019 - 10:08
              +4

              @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: I still can't find your road safety link link to "Cameras capture yellow turn offenses"? Not saying its not there, just can't find it.

              • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 25/11/2019 - 10:13
                -3

                @dave999: Still waiting for your "all information contradicts this"

                • dave999 on 25/11/2019 - 10:14
                  +8

                  @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: As said above.

                  From the https://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/speeding/speedcamera… see section 6

                  "The red-light detection function of the cameras is connected to the traffic lights and is activated when a vehicle crosses the white stop line after the lights have turned red. The camera is programmed to take photographs of the rear of any vehicle travelling over the stop line or entering the intersection after the lights have turned red. The camera is not triggered by vehicles crossing the stop line on yellow (amber) or green lights."

                  That contradicts the statement "Red light cameras trigger on yellow/amber".

    • bobz79 on 25/11/2019 - 10:13
      +6

      "Red" light camera isn't supposed to trigger on yellow, period! There is something wrong with the camera setting obviously - time since red = 13.7s?! Either triggered wrong lane camera or red light time is carried over from other lane!

      • Fysh on 25/11/2019 - 15:38

        Youre right check the offence date with the dash cam date

    • Nick939 on 25/11/2019 - 10:47

      OP being able to “stop safely” is debatable. I would like your calculations reviewed.

      • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 25/11/2019 - 10:56
        +1

        Cool. Review them. Braking distance = speed^2 / (250 * 0.8)

        0.8 assuming it was dry.

        There's no reaction distance as OP is already braking.

        Or just use any calc you find on Dr. Google.

  • Austaurean on 25/11/2019 - 09:25
    +1

    At work now so cant, but i do take your point.

    One comment though, amber means stop, not go faster.

    • sleet on 25/11/2019 - 10:17
      -2

      No… amber is slow, red is stop.

      • Euphemistic on 25/11/2019 - 10:18
        +2

        No amber is stop unless unsafe.

        • pegaxs on 25/11/2019 - 12:54
          +2

          The amount of people in this thread that think amber = "go faster and beat the red" or "proceed, but with caution" just amazes me…

          • cloudy on 26/11/2019 - 10:37
            -1

            @pegaxs: Would a truck travelling really close behind OP, risking a rear end if OP braked for a yellow change your mind?

            I’m just brain storming the function of a yellow is, in your mind pegaxs, if you treat a yellow like a red, which you seem to be.

            • pegaxs on 26/11/2019 - 14:41
              +1

              @cloudy:

              Would a truck travelling really close behind OP

              Not what happened, so your example is irrelevant.

              if you treat a yellow like a red, which you seem to be.

              That's because it's the law. (ARR 57)

              57 Stopping for a yellow traffic light or arrow
              (1) A driver approaching or at traffic lights showing a yellow traffic light must stop—
              (2) A driver approaching or at traffic arrows showing a yellow traffic arrow who is turning in the direction indicated by the arrow must stop—
              (3) If the traffic lights or traffic arrows (as the case may be) are at an intersection and the driver is not able to stop safely under subrule (1) or (2)

              Stop safely =/= "speed up" or "proceed with caution." There was no truck and there was no adverse weather or lighting conditions. OP was not speeding, had plenty of space and could easily have stopped.

  • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 25/11/2019 - 10:15
    -6

    I honestly don't know why I waste my time on threads like this. I'm out.

    • Skramit on 25/11/2019 - 10:18
      +7

      I love a good ragequit! +1 vote

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