Traffic Penalty $457- Proceeded through Amber Traffic Light (NSW) - Cancelled

Killerbala on 24/11/2019 - 22:58
Last edited 04/12/2019 - 17:09 by 1 other user

Hello Oz-mate's,

Sorry to bother you all today- I know everyone is busy ordering Mavic Pro, but I need your help in drafting my review.

Received a surprise gift from NSW Revenue to pay up $457 for running a red light. Based on past forums, I do know that we get stung for running an amber. Haven't had any offence on my name (Migrated to Australia 5 years ago) and I hope it stays that way.

My view is that the camera mistook me for traffic going straight(based on the time since red shows around 14sec) but I was turning left. Attached photos along with the dash-cam video and let me know if I have a chance.

Not sure if I can upload dashcam video in the review process or should I just go with the pictures ?

Link to pictures

Link to Dashcam Video

Update - Added penalty notice which might clear-up few confusions in the thread.

Link to penalty notice

My mate found this

What if I entered the intersection on a yellow (amber) light?Revenue NSW reviews all images and will only take enforcement action when it is clear that a vehicle has proceeded through a red light at an intersection.

Update 27/11/2019-14:00

As suggested by UFO in the thread, gave them a ring few minutes back. 1st Operator stated that the review was just closed and the fine still stands. Reason will be notified in email shortly(it takes 24 hours for the system to process it)

Asked her to check the photo and explain why it still stands, while she was reading the response email(which im yet to get) she said its a bit confusing and asked if she can transfer me to a senior or specialized team.

Senior operator had the same light bulb moment and she explained the camera went off because I was in the 24 hour bus lane while making the turn. Informed her but we can use the bus lane within 100m which she agreed but in this intersection its a 24HR bus lane and I'm supposed to make the left turn from lane 2 not from lane 1(Bus lane). She was very helpful and raised an internal re-check request for the fine issued which might be reverted to using bus lane offence. And if that happens I might have to use my dashcam video to prove that I entered the lane within 100m.

Attached review response.

Link to Review notice

Final Update

They cancelled the penalty and thanks all for the inputs. Also no kid was in the car, it was a request from my mate to add that comment. To test if masses view can be altered by adding a child to a story. No kids have been harmed.

Link to Final Review notice

Thanks & Appreciate your help :-)

Poll Options

  • 8
    Penalty should stand
  • 2
    Had time to stop safely
  • 4
    No time to Stop safely
Automotive

Comments

    • DogGunn on 25/11/2019 - 19:07

      Not a lawyer yet?
      They are very unlikely to issue a new penalty notice for running a yellow light.

    • Killerbala on 25/11/2019 - 19:15

      Thanks- for responding to my actual question. So I just inform them it’s amber when completing the turn ? No need to add in a statement like “reviewed my dash cam as well and it confirms the same, happy to share if required” something like that ?

      • factor on 25/11/2019 - 22:59

        Government stuff ups happen all the time. Provide minimum information to demonstrate they are wrong - then there is no confusion. This is a "transaction" with government don't let it go somewhere else. One sentence should do it. "Infringement incorrectly issued, vehicle turning left, left turn arrow not red." They will check that against their own facts (the photos).

      • andyken on 26/11/2019 - 07:45
        +1

        Just write "I do not run or proceed to the red traffic light" as you are not, not even mention about amber light and let them figure themselves

  • onlyletters on 25/11/2019 - 19:10

    honestly, call up the revenue number, they'll check and waive it on the spot just tell them in the picture it shows you passed on yellow.

  • dcash on 25/11/2019 - 19:35

    Dashcam definitely suggests the penalty notice is wrong.

  • WaterMark on 25/11/2019 - 20:05
    +1

    I think we are all forgetting about the poor guy who dropped his water bottle, whilst waiting at the first set of lights.

  • Blue Cat on 25/11/2019 - 21:08

    So wait, I am really confused.
    Half of the guys are saying you can't cross a yellow arrow light, while the other half says you can.
    The NSW road rules look like yellow arrow lights have exact same rules as yellow circle lights.

    Assuming OPs situation, would I be able to legally cross the yellow arrow if I never stepped on the brakes before and while turning left???

    • Obkay on 25/11/2019 - 22:05
      +1

      You can legally cross a yellow only if its unsafe for you to brake and stop.

      In other words if the light turns yellow just as you are approaching it and stopping means slamming your brakes.

  • Taine on 25/11/2019 - 22:45
    +2

    Light wasn't red. Don't include the dashcam or any other things. you can take it to court simply on the fact you where issued a red light fine for a yellow turn signal. the camera picked up the wrong lane plain and simple. Don't listen to these other social justice warriors in gleaming Armour.

  • dufflover on 25/11/2019 - 23:27

    I'm +1 vote in that "middle-of-the-road category" (get it, get it!) :P of it could go both ways?
    1. you did NOT run a red light, but
    2. if there is a rule about failing to stop at a yellow when clearly safe to do so, your dashcam footage is pretty self-incriminating IMO

    The photos are pretty self-evident light was not red as per the rule, so better off you make that video disappear instead …

  • SydBoy on 26/11/2019 - 06:43

    That intersection has camera on both side of the intersection and I got caught few times so I try to avoid that intersection.

    You should at least appeal the decision as lights were not red when you turned left.

    Camera activated as you were next to bus lane, so system consider you going straight.

  • Doovik on 26/11/2019 - 08:00

    Clearly crossed on yellow and I think it’s called a red light camera for a reason. If the photograph that they sent you shows that the light is still yellow then just tell them that it is yellow and not red.

  • ranmalynx on 26/11/2019 - 10:46
    +1

    Request for review. Sometimes they do get it wrong. Case in point - https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/289480

  • dufflover on 26/11/2019 - 11:44
    +3

    I think I've identified the OP
    https://youtu.be/QR10t-B9nYY?t=10

    • Killerbala on 26/11/2019 - 20:35

      Ahah - thanks for finding it.

  • lysp on 26/11/2019 - 12:01

    Not only would I request a review.

    I'd basically have a go at them saying the reviewer clearly did not review the photo or do their job properly as you were in a turning lane with an arrow.

  • UFO on 26/11/2019 - 12:50

    You didn't run the red. You ran a very late amber, but not a red (still broke the law, but you've got a get out of jail card in this instance).

    The RTA website you linked to clearly states they don't fine people on amber light infringements.

    If it was a cop standing there, they could simply void the first ticket and re-issue a new one for running the amber light… which you very clearly did.
    You pushed it and then some to try and make that light, when you should have braked.

    But in this instance, you'll get off because of RTA policy… not because of law.

    Very straightforward letter.

    Dear Sir,

    bla bla bla details of offence, infringement number.

    bla bla bla I refer you to this website (exact link), where it clearly states infringements will not be issued for amber lights.

    Please refer to this video link showing my uploaded dashcam video of the incident (exact link).
    Please note the camera shows incorrect time details, but it clearly shows the traffic camera activating.

    Sincerely,

    Mr Lucky there wasn't a cop there.

    • Killerbala on 26/11/2019 - 15:31

      Thanks for the script but I have submitted the review without the Dashcam video, fingers crossed.

      • UFO on 26/11/2019 - 17:01

        I'd follow up on it saying you have further relevant evidence for their consideration.
        It's very clear in the footage you were in the intersection prior to it turning red…. which is the point you are trying to prove.

  • timmyd on 26/11/2019 - 14:45
    -1

    This doesn't make any sense - the dashcam footage isn't of the same incident as the traffic infringement photos.

    In the photos, you can clearly see that the turn arrow is green as your car crosses the line (top left corner of this photo: https://imgur.com/a/MVcblBt)

    In the dashcam footage, the turn arrow is orange well before you even get to the line (https://youtu.be/3fdCr3ACLag?t=13)

    • John Kimble on 26/11/2019 - 15:17
      +1

      It's not green

    • Doovik on 26/11/2019 - 17:41
      +1

      It is yellow look at the positioning of the arrow it is in the centre meaning it was yellow. maybe the camera makes it look green and therefore OP has an even better chance. Yellow or Green OP never ran a red

  • Yabbie on 27/11/2019 - 08:46
    +4

    Love the fact that your GPS unit even warns you of a ”red light/speed camera ahead” as you approach the intersection.

    • pegaxs on 30/11/2019 - 10:48
      +1

      Decides to run it anyway, gets butt hurt, posts on OzBargain, …, profit!

      • Killerbala on 04/12/2019 - 14:49

        Acceleration was done when the lights are green. Are we not supposed to accelerate within the speed limits? Decided to turn because it didn't make sense to slam the brakes.But your logic is that I'm supposed to anticipate a red when the lights are green and slowly crawl to the line and stop.

        • pegaxs on 04/12/2019 - 16:13
          +1

          Acceleration was done when the lights are green.

          That's fine. It's how you get up to speed.

          Are we not supposed to accelerate within the speed limits?

          Didn't say that

          Decided to turn because it didn't make sense to slam the brakes.

          Even though you had plenty of time to stop and were already on the brakes, requiring them not to be slammed anyway.

          I'm supposed to anticipate a red when the lights are green

          Yep, especially when there are warnings coming from your GPS stating you are close to a red light camera.

          and slowly crawl to the line and stop.

          You were already on the brakes, slowing for the turn. You had ample space at that speed to bring the car to a stop comfortably. More so now we know the kid wasn't in the car.

          But your logic is that

          Wasn't my logic. You made that up and made it sound like what I said.

          • Killerbala on 04/12/2019 - 17:18

            @pegaxs:

            Even though you had plenty of time to stop and were already on the brakes, requiring them not to be slammed anyway.

            Lol-I think its similar to the movie Sully, its easy to sit back and decide what can be done but in the actual situation its the other way around. While I understand it is possible to stop, it wasn't possible at that time to stop normally safely.

            • pegaxs on 04/12/2019 - 19:57

              @Killerbala: Oh, definitely. That’s what I was thinking. Your situation was exactly like Sully. You had a life or death decision to make to try and save the lives of hundreds of people under your care. A truly high stress situation that required split second decision making.

              Or, you just ran an amber light.

  • INVOICE on 27/11/2019 - 12:01
    +2

    The amount of people defending the governments revenue raising here is sickening, but not unexpected. Why is it so hard for some australians to question authority?

    • gimme on 27/11/2019 - 16:17
      +2

      Because robots with no ability to discern. Happily buy into everything being for their safety and security. Not entirely their fault as most lack perspective and have little desire to educate themselves. Happily forming opinions based on headlines and propaganda.

    • Euphemistic on 28/11/2019 - 13:48
      -1

      This is not a case of revenue raising. It is a screw up with the fine i.e. it wasn’t a red light.

      If you think red light cameras are ‘revenue raising’ its a bit sad. Red light cameras are there to send a message that running red lights is unsafe so don’t do it. I’d be more than happier if they installed them everywhere and never got a cent out of them.

  • kaleidoscope on 27/11/2019 - 12:26

    Go for it. It looks as if cameras confused you with middle lane.

  • twadds on 27/11/2019 - 16:18

    "Senior operator had the same light bulb moment and she explained the camera went off because I was in the 24 hour bus lane while making the turn. Informed her but we can use the bus lane within 100m which she agreed but in this intersection its a 24HR bus lane and I'm supposed to make the left turn from lane 2 not from lane 1(Bus lane). She was very helpful and raised an internal re-check request for the fine issued which might be reverted to using bus lane offence. And if that happens I might have to use my dashcam to prove that I entered the lane within 100m not so lucky after all."

    This is not correct, the person who you spoke to doesn't understand the difference between a "Bus lane" and a "Buses Only lane". Your video clearly shows that you were using a regular "Bus lane" the fact that it is 24 hours makes no difference. You're still welcome to drive in it for "General traffic is also permitted to travel in a bus lane for up to 100 metres to:

    Turn left or right into or out of a street."

    http://rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/using-roads/buses/bus-lanes.html

    I would call them back and ask them to look at this link or ask of there's anyone above the senior operator who actually understands the road rules.

    • Killerbala on 27/11/2019 - 16:44

      Did explain all that to her but she asked me to wait for the review she is going to raise. Lets wait for that to come through.

  • dufflover on 27/11/2019 - 16:44
    +1

    haha plot twist, who would've picked the bus lane would come up officially.
    Actually, ironically enough the only instance where "bus" appears in these comments is the OP himself talking about not getting pinged on the first page!

    It’s a 24HR bus lane and I don’t want to get pinged by bus lane camera and no one enters that intersection going all the way to the left.

    (don't get me wrong, I think turning left from the left most lane even if it's bus makes the most sense unless arrowed on the ground which it isn't here)

  • highdealer on 28/11/2019 - 01:16

    https://youtu.be/Uy7X-kocUlQ?t=752

    This is why you just don't just slam the brake on yellow every time.

  • mubd1234 on 28/11/2019 - 10:25
    +2

    The senior operator is totally in the wrong in this instance. There are EXTREMELY rare instances where it is true that you can't actually use the bus lane to make a left turn, but this isn't one of them, and I highly doubt the RMS has set these cameras up to be triggered in such a way. What the operator is suggesting would mean that cars would be in conflict with buses in a case like this.

    I think once it is reviewed, the penalty will be quashed and no bus lane fine will be issued. These cameras are not bus lane cameras so they can't issue bus lane fines using these photos as evidence.

  • PasqualeOz on 28/11/2019 - 19:17

    Have a few mates who are cops and showed one this vid. Argument to be made is “if you had slammed on the brakes it would have been more dangerous given you were so close to the line, any cars behind you would not have had enough time to react and this could also have caused an accident”. Driving the way you did actually saved lives!

    • Killerbala on 28/11/2019 - 21:00

      Music to ears!

    • pegaxs on 30/11/2019 - 11:01
      +1

      if you had slammed on the brakes

      OP was already on the brakes and slowing down. There was no "slamming" required.

      would have been more dangerous given you were so close to the line

      No they weren't. There was ample space to stop in that distance from that speed.

      any cars behind you would not have had enough time to react

      There were no cars behind and/or there was ample space for them, so your point here is moot.

      Driving the way you did actually saved lives!

      No, no it doesn't. What it does is makes people push the limit… It's orange, I can go. That soon turns into "It's only just turned red." The whole reason there is a 3~4 second delay between your light turning red and the opposite flow of traffic turning green is basically because of arseholes that think that going on orange/little bit of red is "safe"

      One of the dumbest things I have read on this forum to date, "running orange lights saves lives". Please, let me know what satate you live in so I know if it's safe to take my car out of the garage…

      • Euphemistic on 30/11/2019 - 12:53
        +1

        Completely agree pegaxs. And without the hard acceleration there would have been less need to brake harshly. OPs poor excuse for not braking hard of a sleepy child in the back didn’t seem to matter during the acceleration phase.

        • [Deactivated] on 02/12/2019 - 11:47
          +1

          Hard acceleration? He accelerated up to 10km/h under the speed limit, hardest acceleration was 25 km/h over 2.5-3 seconds, or 10 km/h/s at worst. That may seem fast to you in your 95 corolla but it's a completely normal acceleration in many modern cars.

      • PasqualeOz on 30/11/2019 - 15:09
        +1

        Unless you are a police officer, or have spoken to a legal person, your opinion here really is pointless. I won’t engage in he said she said nonsense. At the end of the day it’s OP’s decision whether or not to challenge and they should pursue legal advice. But my opinion and that of my police officer friend is they would get off. Take that with a grain of salt.

        • pegaxs on 30/11/2019 - 19:19

          your opinion here really is pointless

          As is yours. Not only that, “running orange lights saves lives” is the biggest load of misinformation . So much so that I am not sure if you actually believe it, or you said it in jest/as a troll…

          I won’t engage in he said she said nonsense

          By calling my opinion pointless, you already have.

          it’s OP’s decision

          Didn’t say it wasn’t.

          my police officer friend

          So, they are an expert? They work in the fines/review department? *I don’t believe you.gif*

          What I believe is what I see and what I can work out using math and physics. OP has also posted the finding of the review, so show that to your “police” friend. Seems they need to update their knowledge as well.

  • Architectonic on 29/11/2019 - 19:51

    Many people seem to misunderstand the 'stop on amber if safe' law. The reason for this law is quite simple and it is part of the assumptions of the engineering of the intersection. There is an all-red clearance time between signals. This clearance time is engineered (based on intersection distance) so that a car which was not able to stop and enters the intersection on amber can exit the intersection before another direction gets a green signal. If you were to enter the intersection too slowly on amber and fail to completely exit the intersection before another direction gets a green signal, you can be fined because you were travelling slow enough to stop safely on amber.

    tl;dr: This is the purpose of the 'stop on amber if safe' law, namely to make sure that no (slow) vehicle is still in the intersection when another direction gets a green signal.

    • Euphemistic on 30/11/2019 - 10:30
      +1

      It semantics, but the law is ‘stop unless unsafe’. This is akin to the ‘give way’ vs ‘right of way’ thing - a subtle but important difference.

      Stop if safe leads to a decision process of yellow light, is it safe, I’d better stop. Stop unless unsafe should lead to yellow light, prepare to stop, check if unsafe. The important bit is stopping not checking for safety.

      • pegaxs on 30/11/2019 - 11:04

        I agree.

        What an amber light most certainly is not is a trailing off green, which is how most people here (and in the wider driving community) seem to view amber lights as.

        • Euphemistic on 30/11/2019 - 12:51

          Too many of us drive like we are the most important person on earth and we can’t afford to miss even one green light and waste precious seconds.

  • barozgain on 02/12/2019 - 15:43

    I don't know how on earth the penalty still applies and wasn't revoked

  • Eeples on 03/12/2019 - 13:25
    +1

    I am confused OP.
    You have edited to say that the infringement has been cancelled but you have posted the review notice which says after review the penalty stands and need to go to court?
    What happened between receiving the review notice and the penalty getting cancelled?

    • Killerbala on 03/12/2019 - 21:21
      +1

      Review raised by me was closed stating the fine stands. An internal review was raised by the operator, which was closed stating that the penalty is cancelled.(will add that letter probably tomorrow)

      • askme69 on 03/12/2019 - 22:18

        Plenty more mistakes will be made.

  • askme69 on 03/12/2019 - 14:20
    +1

    The BUS LANE thing is crap. The people you spoke to know F sweet all (plenty of them).

    For a BUS LANE camera fine, it is sent as a BUS LANE Camera fine, not a red light camera fine for starters. BUS LANE fines are issued after you pass 2 cameras in the bus lane, even if you pass a camera and leave the lane and rejoin 5 metres before the next camera, it doesn't care, you have passed 2 cameras. .

  • Dumax on 04/12/2019 - 13:52
    +1

    Good on you OP for fighting (and winning) this despite the "infallibility" of "safety" camera technology.

    • Euphemistic on 04/12/2019 - 15:55
      +1

      That wasn’t fighting and winning. It was requesting them to correct an error.

  • pegaxs on 04/12/2019 - 16:05
    +1

    Also no kid was in the car, it was a request from my mate to add that comment.

    What??? Someone came to OzB and made a thread and lied about the circumstances surrounding the event?

    Well… colour me surprised…

    (and sure, your "mate" asked you say that…)

    • Killerbala on 04/12/2019 - 17:08

      ya nah ya- that's the fact

  • skid on 04/12/2019 - 16:33

    I couldn't spot the difference between the penalty notice and the final review notice. Did you upload the right pic? Thanks for getting back to us on the final outcome anyways.

    • Killerbala on 04/12/2019 - 17:10

      Apologies! Wrong link - its good now.

  • Skramit on 08/12/2019 - 12:38

    Good result OP

  • whooah1979 on 08/12/2019 - 12:43

    https://imgur.com/Gp6nvTD

    Good things does happen at Xmas.

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