eBay Buyer Has Accused Me of Sending Him an Empty Box - Am I Stuffed?

Tafe on 07/04/2018 - 16:04
Last edited 07/04/2018 - 16:47 by 1 other user

OK, so I see there are heaps of threads about buyer/seller disputes on eBay, but I want to play too.

I sold a LEGO set on eBay last week. Brand new and factory sealed - in fact, it's one of those ones with a clear front panel where you can see the contents.

Not super high value, $60, and I accepted his offer of $50.

I sent it the next day via courier and it arrives about 48 hours later.

All tracking etc are in good order and listed in eBay/PayPal

Yesterday, I get a VERY theatrical "return request notification" with the text - roughly;

"I am outraged! I arrive home and I see this item at my doorstep and I get all excited, rip open the package and what do I get? Nothing. Absolutely nothing
except for an empty, stupid box! You decided to take out all of the parts, keep them yourself and send me this garbage. This is disgusting! I am lodging
this complaint in my frustration that how could you even think about doing this to someone. What, was it because I was shopping around and you gave me a
$10 discount, so you took revenge and took out the parts? I have included photos as proof of what you have done. I expect a full refund immediately and for
you to never do this again to anyone."

Accompanying the text are three staged photos of an empty box, surrounded by torn packaging.

Googling reveals that there are plenty of seller whinging about eBay/PayPal tending to favour buyers over sellers, and that sellers seem to cop it with scammy buyers. Are they right?

I haven't replied to the buyer at all.

BUT, I message eBay customer service chat and they seem really helpful. They say that they will look into this blokes account, and request from him a statutory declaration before proceeding.

I'm pretty happy with this - the dude's gotta be pretty brave to lie in a stat dec right?

I feel like eBay kind of have my back on this one, but now I'm concerned about PayPal - my understanding is that you can lodge a dispute with both eBay AND PayPal separately? And either can be in your favour or against?

I was thinking that I get on the front foot and contact PayPal like I did with eBay, but I don't want to open up a dispute (?) that I might lose/regret.

What would you do?

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Comments

    • iDroid on 11/04/2018 - 10:12
      +3

      Common, I've got work to do, I can't sit here all day clicking refresh….

      AHhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!

    • Seraphin7 on 11/04/2018 - 11:07
      +2

      Come on man! Where's the update? We need to know where the story's up to!

  • glengood on 11/04/2018 - 10:28
    +2

    This thread > Serial podcast

  • IMadeYouReadThis on 11/04/2018 - 11:29

    OP will soon be contacted by Netflix to have a series on this scam :P

  • MessyG on 11/04/2018 - 12:21

    Biting my nails over here dude, come on.

  • Tafe on 11/04/2018 - 12:22

    Sorry, I probably built that up more than is necessary.

    OK, so I drafted that letter which you saw regarding accepting his return, weighing it and comparing it to the weight of the package that the carrier (may, or may not wink-wink) have on file. Also the requirement of a stat dec before eBay would process payment of his return.

    The problem was that when I went to cut and paste the text into the response box of the return request, that the text didn't fit!

    I tried to condense the text to fit into the response box but I couldn't quite convey everything I wanted to. So, I sent it to his registered PayPal email address.

    The short of it is, that he ranted and raved in a similar fashion to his original message, but the clincher was:

    I would have been happy to return the empty box you sent me except that I threw it away in anger, the day I received it. Even if I hadn’t, I would expect a
    full reimbursement for the postage to send it to your home.

    SO

    • who processes a return request via eBay, then throws away the 'evidence' on the same day?
    • who qualifies that with an 'even if I hadn't'
    • IF I was in the wrong, well of course I would be expected to pay for the return.

    I'm suspecting quite strongly that he has all the box/packaging etc, but he's been rattled enough to not go through with the return process.

    So, after reading his reply email, I go into eBay and accept his return! I select the eBay gives you to "arrange pick up with the buyer" so I don't have to front up a postage label.

    I message him, via eBay, with a condensed version of Camelrancer's comment (thanks Camelrancer!)

    Assertive via email, polite in eBay's records.

    Anyway, he replies within minutes…

    • Seraphin7 on 11/04/2018 - 12:30

      And then?

    • whooah1979 on 11/04/2018 - 12:44
      +1

      that the text didn't fit!

      you know you can send as many replies as you want. next time cut the text in smaller sections and send them in consecutive order.

      • Tafe on 11/04/2018 - 12:50

        He basically says that he won't be returning the packaging and to process the refund.

        I jump onto eBay customer service to explain that I have agreed to process a customer return, but that the customer won't send back the goods for investigation. This is via online chat.

        After waiting about 3-4 minutes for a reply, the rep tells me that the buyer made the purchase through ebay.com, and not ebay.com.au and that they can't provide me with any advice because different rules apply between the platforms. They suggest I contact ebay.com customer service during US business hours!

        I'm like wtf, this is my third chat with you guys, why is it the first time I am hearing about this? They are, like other users have mentioned previously, so inconsistent and hopeless.

        I haven't quite got me head around the ebay.com conditions yet, but it looks like if the buyer doesn't send something back to me within 30 days the case is closed in my favour.

        • whooah1979 on 11/04/2018 - 13:09

          the buyer made the purchase through ebay.com, and not ebay.com.au and that they can't provide me with any advice because different rules apply between the platforms.

          the cs is right whan they say that ebay and ebay australia are legally two separate entities. their mbg should comply with local legislation.
          https://pages.ebay.com/ebay-money-back-guarantee/
          https://pages2.ebay.com.au/eBay_Money_Back_Guarantee

        • [Deactivated] on 11/04/2018 - 13:14

          To continue from my previous comment

          …possible outcomes. (Based on your reply to the scammer)

          1. No response - you don't get closure and you've gotten nowhere.

          2. Calls your bluff - now you look silly and you're going to feel worse for it.

          3. They continue to pursue their refund through PayPal or chargeback - you may be asked for your photographic evidence (which we established you do not have).

          4. If he ships the contents back to you but included more weight, ie more cardboard to equal the parts he removed, your entire argument with shipping weight benefits the scammer instead.

          5. He buys it and messages you to close the case. We all know the likelihood of that.

          I can see a few variations of the above outcomes but they're too similar to the above. I'd be planning my next step based on 3.

        • Tafe on 11/04/2018 - 13:46

          @tshow:

          possible outcome #6? : Buyer does nothing further, returns period expires and funds are re-released back into my PayPal?

          I just received feedback too. No mention of scamming, empty boxes, rip-offs… just a neg with the comment:

          I will not purchase from you ever again. I never wish I had of in the beginning

          Weird right?

        • [Deactivated] on 11/04/2018 - 13:55

          @Tafe:
          I'd call that scenario 1. because that would have occurred even if you didn't press for a response.

          The neg comment is harsh. It didn't specify a scam therefore it is a valid negative feedback as far as legalities are concerned.

          Rough one, mate.

        • Calmago on 11/04/2018 - 14:52
          +1

          @Tafe:

          Hi that is correct.

          If you have a open return request and the buyer does not upload tracking to show it's been sent back, It's automatically closed after 30 odd days. Sometimes it take a bit longer, but it does happen.

          I get quite a lot of this.

        • netsurfer on 11/04/2018 - 20:51
          +2

          @Tafe: You should be able to get the negative feedback removed, especially you already approved the return. Chat with customer rep to get it removed.

          Like Calmago pointed out, you should be able to get the money placed on hold being released back to you since the buyer has no intention on sending anything back. If the buyer elected to go for the nasty charge back option, make sure you have the postage tracking details (the details from the courier company needs to show recipient address in their record) - you'll need those details for PayPal seller protection claim.

          Just a suggestion, in the future, avoid selling to potential buyers asking for discounts, especially those after a heavy discount. They already have a different perceived value on the item. Often, it is best to let them go rather than convince them to go through the transaction. Obviously, add this particular buyer to your block list if you haven't done so.

        • spaceflight on 11/04/2018 - 22:36

          @netsurfer:

          eBay will only remove negative feedback if it violates their policy https://www.ebay.com.au/help/policies/feedback-policies/feed…

          If the buyer elected to go for the nasty charge back option, make sure you have the postage tracking details (the details from the courier company needs to show recipient address in their record) - you'll need those details for PayPal seller protection claim.

          A charge back is not the same as paypal seller protection.
          The PayPal seller protection will not protect you from a charge back.

        • spaceflight on 11/04/2018 - 22:39

          He basically says that he won't be returning the packaging and to process the refund.

          If he sends you an empty box with tracking then he can upload that tracking to eBay to close the case and get a refund.
          You will need flight to show that he did not send you the original item.

        • netsurfer on 11/04/2018 - 23:24

          @spaceflight: We already have an OZBer in a similar situation reported that eBay support removed the negative feedback. It is clear now the buyer is trying to scam OP.

          Have you dealt with charge back before? Please read the PayPal help article:
          https://www.paypal.com/au/selfhelp/article/how-does-paypal-s…

          Are you claiming PayPal flat out lie in that page?

          If the buyer sent back an empty box, then OP can deal with that then. Furthermore, the buyer will need to send using a trackable delivery service so that probably means registered post. The buyer claimed he already threw the box away. I am sure OP would video the unpacking of the box. Should that actually happens, then let eBay rule the whole thing.

        • Amaurys on 11/04/2018 - 23:43

          @Tafe: You can easily have that negative feedback removed by eBay. Just complain how's it unfair and unjust. As a last resort (if required), simply state that you're no longer motivated to sell on eBay and they'll happily remove it within 10-30 minutes.

        • spaceflight on 12/04/2018 - 00:04

          @netsurfer:

          Maybe I poorly worded it.
          But there are two things that can happen.
          1 The buyer opens a case in PayPal
          2 The buyer makes a charge back with their credit card.

          Generally 1 is what the seller protection is.

          When 2 happens PayPal needs to mediate between the buyer and seller as they are essentially the merchant, this is handled as part of the seller protection platform because they are required to mediate. But PayPal are only doing what they need to do to satisfy the charge back process.

          Seller protection will not protect you from a charge back. There is nothing PayPal can to to stop one being made.

          Also in this case seller protection probably would not apply. It covers unauthorised transactions or for items not received. Here the item was received and the tracking will show this.

          An empty box being delivered means that the item was significantly different from the description and this is not covered by seller protection.

        • netsurfer on 12/04/2018 - 00:09

          @spaceflight: The thing is I recently went through your so called case #2. Seller protection was applicable. My case was buyer claiming unauthorised transaction (credit card chargeback).

          Please READ the page I mentioned earlier. Charge back clearly mentioned. If you disagree with that, contact PayPal to have that changed (not me). I copied and pasted bits of that page below:

          How does PayPal Seller Protection work?

          If a buyer files a claim, chargeback or reversal against you, PayPal will place a temporary hold on the funds in your PayPal account.

          We need the following documents from you as proof of shipment:

          For an unauthorised transaction, proof of shipment is required.

          We'll review and determine whether the transaction meets the eligibility requirements for Seller Protection. If it does, we will lift the temporary hold on the funds and restore the funds to your account. Otherwise, the funds will be returned to the buyer’s account and a chargeback fee may apply.

          =======
          If charge back has ZERO protection as you indicated, why put it under "Seller Protection" help page?

        • [Deactivated] on 12/04/2018 - 11:10

          @Amaurys:
          If the negative feedback includes false claims, slander, libel, discrimination… etc, there would be grounds for removal of the comment.

          The negative feedback simply stated that the buyer isn't happy and doesn't want to buy from this person again.

          As much as it is a dick move, he is entitled to his opinion and he is free to leave that opinion as feedback.

          I hope eBay would judge this case on a per case basis than simply apply protocol because protocol would be to leave that comment up.

        • Amaurys on 12/04/2018 - 18:56

          @tshow:
          It doesn't matter. As long as you can explain the situation and justify why it's unfair, they'll end up removing it. You just have to be careful with your words. You may have to persistently nag them but they'll eventually agree to remove it. Be polite as possible…

          Speaking from three experiences.

        • deepblonde on 14/04/2018 - 13:52

          @tshow: eBay can and do remove feedback for any reason- I left negative feedback for a seller who decided that the auction end price wasn't high enough and canceled sale and said item no longer available, all I said was 'seller cancelled waste of time' eBay removed it

        • [Deactivated] on 14/04/2018 - 14:30

          @deepblonde:
          I honestly thought eBay was more strict with their own rules.

  • Dalton on 11/04/2018 - 12:41
    +1

    If this turns into a pay-per-view channel, I'm out of here.

  • MessyG on 11/04/2018 - 13:06
    +6

    eating popcorn meme

    Keep us updated!

  • AMLagonda on 11/04/2018 - 15:19
    +1

    JERRY JERRY…*awaits with bated breath"

    Hate these scammer scum.

  • popcornready on 11/04/2018 - 15:37
    +1

    Please keep updates going

  • Splashtash on 11/04/2018 - 23:02

    Rough ride mate. I really hope that shit loses. Interesting enough though I have heard horror stories online about how people who sell online similar to eBay in order to keep positive reviews at all costs. E.g - customer leaves bad review, seller asks buyer to change to positive. If buyer doesn't change they start the harass/threat game. Stories of hacking a persons phone so it constantly calls the number and hangs up once you answer and renders the number unusable or sending feces/dead animals to the persons address. Their reviews mean they make more money regardless of moral values.

    • Dusto on 11/04/2018 - 23:26
      +2

      I work for Auspost and would like to give you a little bit of advice in the future always weigh the parcel and pay a little extra for tracking/eparcel I have had people try scam me on eBay before for not sending shoes and when I told them I have the weight of the parcel recorded with Auspost they back up and said nothing.

      I also want to know if you double boxed the LEGO if not this would be also recommend as parcels get treated pretty bad sometimes and maybe the contents fell out the box and Auspost couldn’t find what box had the LEGO in it. I’d also ring them if you end up losing your money and acussing them of losing your contents it does happen I find empty boxes in the parcels I sort and can’t find what went in them

      • netsurfer on 12/04/2018 - 00:50
        +1

        It wasn't AusPost (OP has indicated it was another courier company). Buyer claimed there was nothing inside the LEGO packaging box and raised an item return request. When contacted about sending the item back, he indicated that he threw away the empty LEGO packaging box out of anger. He is seeking a full refund without returning the item (essentially he raised an return with full refund request with no intention of returning the item - even if, according to him, was just an empty LEGO box).

        Anyway, OP chose the allow return option in eBay's workflow, the down side of that is it now gives a time window for buyer to send the item back (which the buyer has indicated he won't do that) but that standard eBay workflow gives a very generous time window for buyer to return - approx. 30 days (I think it was set that long to cater for the situation where the buyer need to post the item back to an overseas seller). So, it looks like OP will need to wait for that time window to expire.

        While most eBay buyers are good, there are some bad ones (and there seems to be an increase of them lately).

      • spaceflight on 12/04/2018 - 09:03

        and pay a little extra for tracking

        Tracking is provided on all domestic parcels for free and has been for a while now.

        • Dusto on 13/04/2018 - 05:36

          that is somewhat true, but you would have to send it from the post office to get the tracking number. If you just put it in the pill box with stamps you won’t receive the tracking number and I was referring to Eparcel/ Regestered anyways so they have to sign for it.

      • bohn on 12/04/2018 - 10:14
        +1

        Is the weight recorded somewhere?

        • aragornelessar on 12/04/2018 - 10:29

          And if it's prepaid (either satchel or via ebay's parcel post option), does it get weighed anywhere if you put it in the red postal box? Or if the counter person doesn't weigh it?

        • Dusto on 13/04/2018 - 05:43
          +1

          No not all parcels are weighed if you take them to the post office they will be weighed by counter staff.

          If you post parcels straight into the pill box chances are they won’t get weight individually.

          Recommend always sending parcels through the post office for situations like this. And I cannot stress that an Eparcel is 100% easiest to track I can look it up on a program at work and find where it is and where it has been. Registered parcels much similar.

  • eggboi on 12/04/2018 - 09:58
    +2

    Why go to this level of effort considering scenarios? Just do the bare minimum ebay / paypal ask of you, then if they still try to take your money (or a card chargeback), file a FOS dispute and they will hand back your money quick smart.

    • eggboi on 12/04/2018 - 09:59
      +1

      The beauty of this is if paypal / the bank can’t prove they had solid grounds to take your money, they will be ordered to give it back to you.

      • eggboi on 12/04/2018 - 10:01
        +1

        And hearsay from the buyer and an empty box is not even close to proving they had a right to take your money.

        • mbck on 12/04/2018 - 17:53

          thanks for this info

    • [Deactivated] on 13/04/2018 - 09:04

      Considering scenarios based on OPs response, not based on the initial scenario.

      I agree with you. I may not have even indulged the scammer with a response. There was ever only a very slim chance it would have yielded the intended result, and it depended on overwhelming stupidity.

  • frank1416 on 12/04/2018 - 11:14
    +1

    Ordered an Iphone off Ebay before, and an empty package showed up.

    Signed a Stat Dec, took photos - Ebay ruled in my favour. They also asked me to file a police report, but I responded that I would not be wasting police time and that the Stat Dec should be sufficient.

  • hd2002 on 13/04/2018 - 19:36

    Yes, PayPal seller protection shall cover you at the end, I think you just need provide a "statutory declaration", normally a JP shall be able to help you on that.

    In the meantime, you need work with the buyer if the package is the one you send out and it was unopened. If it was a different package, you need lodge a case with post office to find out what actually happened.

    Hopeful the issue can be resolved soon,

  • whooah1979 on 14/04/2018 - 17:33

    Ok did you win the dispute?

    • Tafe on 14/04/2018 - 18:55

      I'm in limbo. Funds are held until buyer returns something to me and provides tracking. Buyer says he will not send anything.

      My understanding is that if 30 days passes the case will be closed in my favour, so I guess I just wait another 3 weeks and see.

      I'll worry about getting feedback changed possibly after that

  • Tafe on 15/04/2018 - 12:51

    So the return was 'closed' by eBay as the buyer opened a 'case' by asking eBay to 'step in and assist'.

    15 minutes later the case was ruled in the buyers favour as 'item not as described' and $50 was added to my next invoice.

    C'est la vie…

    • CVonC on 15/04/2018 - 16:33

      $50 was added to my next invoice.

      So you got charged?? Or credited?

      • Tafe on 15/04/2018 - 17:23

        I was charged (essentially he had his payment refunded from my PayPal balance, and also got to keep the LEGO).

        • Shonky on 15/04/2018 - 18:09

          That's pretty crappy after asking for a return, saying he threw away the packaging, absolutely no proof etc… and ebay still believe him?

        • Tafe on 15/04/2018 - 18:21

          I suspect they don't really care if it's true or not. Too time consuming to investigate thing properly, so easier just to make the seller wear the cost (which no doubt you agree to in the T&C's somewhere…)

          I lodged a pretty angry appeal anyway. Explained that 2 separate CS reps advised me that they would require a stat dec from the guy, even though they never did.

          Whole issue was complicated by they fact that he made the purchase through ebay.com not ebay.com.au, even though he is an Australian buyer and I'm an Australian seller.

          Seemed like whenever a CS rep found the questions too hard, they'd just bump me off the a .com.au rep and vice-versa.

        • Splashtash on 16/04/2018 - 10:15
          +1

          @Tafe:
          I think after reading this story i will cease to sell items on ebay and actually email them. WHat if half of ozbargain did it on behalf of tafe…this is how things change :) i hope you escalate it however might not be worth your time.

        • Tafe on 16/04/2018 - 10:23

          @Calmerancer:

          I have lodged an appeal… we will see what comes of it!

          A lot of time/work for $50. Thank god it wasn't more expensive.

        • TheOneWhoKnocks on 16/04/2018 - 16:03

          @Tafe: How many 'stars' does this scammer have?

        • picklewizard on 21/04/2018 - 14:22

          @Tafe: This is a load of shit. Go to the police and demand he be charged with "obtain property by deception". And give us his address.

  • Hypergeometry on 16/04/2018 - 00:39

    Wow this really sucks, such bollocks.
    I hope you win the case, although knowing ebay and paypal, you probably are out of luck. But it does seem like there's hope. Everything this scumbag of a buyer is doing just makes no sense, and shouts "immature". You have his real name right? You could find his facebook or any other stupid social media junk to see how old this kiddo is. Oh wait you did find out his age, around 18.

    Selling on ebay is just riskier and riskier. The sheer amounts of scumbag scammers is just atrocious. I'd love to believe in the concept of Karma although I know it doesn't work like that. I would also make a note to myself and sell my unopened lego sets on gumtree as pickup only. I always insure my items anyway, it would be the seller VS auspost if some rubbish like this happens… but then there's always the chance someone accuses me of sending a brick. I don't understand the logic of such scumbags, you have his address, why would he pull such a thing? It just sounds stupid and risky. You could sign his address up to all sorts of services and litter his address with junk mail, or even anonymously order a knife from amazon via a VPN. Even better, order some white powder and get him swatted.

    I AM NOT advocating for any of these obviously, these are worse moves, worse than scamming; but honestly it could totally happen depending on the "stranger seller" the scammer is trying to mess with. Getting swatted for just $50 is not worth it. At least use a PO box address?

    But then you may have your address on it, so it evens out perhaps? Maybe that's an argument to get a PO box.

    I had a bad experience with a seller once. I won an auction of his, in the photos everything looked nice, but I received a dead lens. I contacted ebay and he started raging at me, of course I have his address. So I initiated a meetup to demonstrate the problems to him, to which he declined. Ebay gave back my money and I returned the lens. I was even nice enough to pay for postage whereas he should have covered it.

    Ebay is risky business, I'd say GumTree is better. Arrange a pickup at a train station or bank, I doubt anyone is dumb enough to pull bad moves.

    • gizmomelb on 16/04/2018 - 14:17

      different breed of scammers on gumtree - be advised NEVER accept paypal payment for goods sold and ALWAYS meet in a public place to sell / pickup expensive items.

  • lainey13 on 17/04/2018 - 23:20

    Scumbag. Hope he steps on it and breaks his foot. Or it gets ingested by something.

  • TransportPosters on 23/04/2018 - 11:15
    +1

    What a huge waste of time this creep caused you, Tafe! But thanks for seeing it through and letting us know all that happened.

  • Tafe on 23/04/2018 - 15:44
    +9

    OK final update folks.

    I hounded eBay CS (3 x online chats and 2 x calls).

    I made them confirm that they had told me that they would require him to have a signed stat dec which they did not do.

    They agreed to refund me my $50 - I assume this has come from eBay's wallet - not the scammers.

    • Dusto on 24/04/2018 - 08:41

      Very happy you’ve had a good outcome and get your money back

      • thatonethere on 24/04/2018 - 10:09
        +3

        But sucks that the scammer can continue on their path

        • aragornelessar on 25/04/2018 - 15:29
          +1

          Yeah, now that sellers can't even leave negative feedback for buyers there's tonnes of these around… is there any recourse at all for sellers? Is a widespread name and shame list an innovation that needs inventing?

  • wandrinstar on 05/01/2022 - 19:46

    There is an easy way around this, just requires a bit more work on your eBay listing. I have always included an item description showing box dimensions and weight of the selling item, assuming it's a small to medium Lego Kit, it should weigh around 400 to 600 grams as sold in box.

    A medium size regular empty cardboard box will weigh no more than 200 to 250 grams. You have just trapped your sneaky scammer on eBay, as your new Lego Kit weighs in the vicinity of 500 grams or more with lots of packaging and you have this displayed on your eBay listing.

    So, he has an empty cardboard box. Ask him the weight? I also hold an Australia Post MyPost Business account (free) and I record the weight of every parcel I ship.

    • Chickenleg on 06/01/2022 - 19:39

      Dude it’s been nearly 4 years, OP has probably forgotten about it by now and all the pain has come flooding back 😅

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