Why Aren't Uni Courses Scrutinized by The Government before HECS Loans Are Given?

luminousfox on 24/04/2024 - 09:44
Last edited 24/04/2024 - 10:27

Bought an apartment with my boyfriend recently and the loan check process was very intense, like making sure we could afford it still if we lost our jobs, any current debts, spending habits, the value of the apartment and area if it needed to be repossessed or sold. Which got me wondering, why is HECS debt so easy to get into, and why aren't courses checked for their validity on getting a suitable job after, or completion rates, or the experience of the students and the actual content of the course.

Why can you get a huge loan for a course that's essentially never going to get you a job that allows you to pay it back? Seems extremely predatory considering the ages of most students entering uni

Edit: I think I have to remember that people on the internet just want to argue against whatever they read, so whatever opinion I want to have agreed with I should write the opposite and I'll have people scrambling to agree with me

Education & Work University

Comments

  • geek001 on 24/04/2024 - 10:20
    +1

    Just because you can get a loan doesn't mean you should.

    From my own experience, the people who got a job straight out of uni are the A students. For the rest, they either eventually find a job in a related field after months of looking or give up and find a totally unrelated job.

    People know their own academic ability, so maybe the question should be, should I get a huge loan for a course that may not get me a job that allows me to pay it back?

    • luminousfox on 24/04/2024 - 10:23
      +1

      I think its also a problem with how university is presented and encouraged by schools and parents. "Would you rather work a dead end job for the rest of your life, or spend 3 years learning in uni to guarantee yourself a high paying job later on, you'd be stupid to not go to uni" Now tell that to someone who is 17-18, has no real idea what they want to do with their life other than be self sufficient and you've got an extremely predatory process with lasting ramifications

      • Crow K on 24/04/2024 - 17:56
        +1

        how university is presented and encouraged by schools and parents. "Would you rather work a dead end job for the rest of your life, or spend 3 years learning in uni to guarantee yourself a high paying job later on, you'd be stupid to not go to uni

        Your grievance is a belief the uni itself has made a guarantee that it couldn't uphold ("get a job when you do this course").

        Of course, the uni never said that, as you relate above.

        And that's why the govt doesn't need to check in with uni's before setting up HECS arrangements etc per the heading to this thread

      • monkeybusiness on 24/04/2024 - 18:34

        You are not wrong here but uni doesn't "guarantee" anything these days. Frankly, there are too many people with degrees and there are not enough jobs available that require these degrees to begin with.

        I found this video super informative on the problem and the outcomes we are now starting to see i.e Too many graduates with degrees and not enough jobs for their skills:

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITwNiZ_j_24

      • derrida derider on 25/04/2024 - 14:47
        +1

        "how university is presented and encouraged by schools and parents. 'Would you rather work a dead end job for the rest of your life, or spend 3 years learning in uni to guarantee yourself a high paying job later on, you'd be stupid to not go to uni'."

        The thing is that this was quite true when those parents and teachers were school students, and that is why they gave that advice. Unskilled or semi-skilled jobs were hard to find then (unemployment was a lot higher than now), while there were chronic shortages in occupations definitely needing uni.

        The economy has changed since then for a complicated set of reasons, which reasons include changed immigration and education policies exactly designed to change that situation. New tradies now earn more than new graduates - and find it easier to get a job too.

  • brendanm on 24/04/2024 - 10:20
    +7

    Then people doing these moronic courses with no real world application wouldn't have anyone else to blame.

  • Duckie2hh on 24/04/2024 - 10:22

    Going by OP's logic, are we going to start questioning the purchasing cost for every item that young adults make? Why did you buy that brand of car? Trigger royal commission on why x brand car is expensive.

  • netjock on 24/04/2024 - 10:42

    Why can you get a huge loan for a course that's essentially never going to get you a job that allows you to pay it back?

    Why do you think the entrance score for professions (doctor, lawyers, pharmacists, accountants) are so high because majority of those graduates will pay their course fees and more.

  • zonra on 24/04/2024 - 10:45
    +8

    Some personal responsibilities are being brushed over here. Have the potential students invest enough time into researching the courses and career choice?
    Why does the responsibility of choosing your own fitting future career falls onto the government, or any other entity other than yourself?
    Using your example, if an individual decides to invest their time and effort into studying interpretive dancing, accruing HECS in the process, who are the government to say no? Would they also be scrutinized for declining the student that opportunity?
    Would it be appropriate for the government to advise that student to pick say, accounting or engineering instead?
    It’s the classic damned if you do and damned if you don’t situation when adult-aged students themselves refuse to be responsible for their own life decisions.

    • luminousfox on 24/04/2024 - 11:16

      I think explaining myself further in the thread has made me realize that I'm not so much mad at the option to do what's considered a "useless degree" but more that a degree that in theory should be useful doesn't necessarily have to be taught correctly to actually let you finish with the skills that let you get the job you want and not just have a fancy sounding degree you can put on your resume. (like one of my courses didn't have a teacher for a whole semester).

      • zonra on 24/04/2024 - 11:33

        Again, some self-directed research may be beneficial in deciding what pathway is best for yourself.
        If I wanted to become a plumber, I wouldn’t go for a plumbing uni degree regardless of what they promise me.
        You mentioned Game Design in your other replies, now this is absolutely not my field so I may very well be talking out of my arse here, but self-directed online learning seems to be popular/essential and you need to stand out in the field (like every other field I guess). I wouldn’t expect to sign up for the course, do the bare minimum to pass it, then expect a guaranteed position upon graduating.
        And yes, the degree and/or provider itself may be rubbish, but it is on you to weed them out when you research prior to investing in your future. Just like you would suck it up when you bought bad stocks or cryptos, or a property that didn’t appreciate like you’d hoped. No one else should take the blame for it.
        People should be glad the option for HECS is there to study close to anything that may tickle their fancy.

  • terlalu on 24/04/2024 - 11:01
    +1

    please vote for me at your next election.
    i have ideas on how to fix this

  • star-ggg on 24/04/2024 - 11:15

    Why would we ever need epidemiologists? What are the odds of a pandemic occurring?

    Under your system, how would you predict what the demand/pay will be in a industry/job in the next 4/10/20 years? If you're so good at it why don't you forgo uni all together and just invest all your daily earnings into 1c stocks in the hottest industry in 4/10/20 years?

    • Presence on 24/04/2024 - 11:40
      +4

      But ANY sort of prediction would be better then the current situation of unis pumping out far more students than there are jobs.

      There's something like 10 X more law graduates than jobs, and whilst I appreciate it has value in many areas, 90% of students will be very disappointed when they can't find relevant employment, but still have HECS debts.

      I'm not saying people shouldn't be able to study whatever they want, but it would be better for the country as whole if a number of these students were redirected to degrees with a better chance of employment.

      • star-ggg on 24/04/2024 - 11:55

        unis pumping out far more students

        University is not compulsory. It is up to the student to decide why they want to go.

        ANY sort of prediction

        No it's not….you're simply gambling with people and the country's future. What if, based on current statistics, women earn less that men so I cap loan amounts for all women?

        Which leads me to my second point in that any prediction you make now will be intrinsically biased based on information available to you now. This is bad for your country's future because you will lack resilience and innovation for your unknown unknowns.

        • Presence on 24/04/2024 - 15:09

          But as I said, how is random 18 year old individuals gambling any better than the government doing so? Hint: it's not!

          • star-ggg on 24/04/2024 - 15:46

            @Presence: random 18 year olds are allowed to vote for their government…..

            • luminousfox on 26/04/2024 - 07:52
              +1

              @star-ggg: random 17 year olds aren't though, but i'm sure that extra year gives them all the worldly experience they could ever need to make informed decisions around the rest of their life.

      • p1 ama on 26/04/2024 - 00:27

        But ANY sort of prediction would be better then the current situation of unis pumping out far more students than there are jobs.

        Sorry, but if you really believe this then it's absolutely laughable.

        Have a look at the actual data: https://www.jobsandskills.gov.au/sites/default/files/2023-10…

        There are persistent skills shortages in plenty of areas which require university degrees - project management, engineering, teaching, sciences, paramedics…etc.

        There's something like 10 X more law graduates than jobs, and whilst I appreciate it has value in many areas, 90% of students will be very disappointed when they can't find relevant employment, but still have HECS debts.

        You've picked a terribly specific example, and interpreted it in quite a niche way. The reality is that the majority of law graduates will not go on to become practicing lawyers, nor do they actually want to.

        There are many reasons for that, least of which is that a law degree teaches many practical skills which are desired in many other fields - banking, consulting, policy / government, management roles…etc.

        I'm not saying people shouldn't be able to study whatever they want, but it would be better for the country as whole if a number of these students were redirected to degrees with a better chance of employment.

        I've been observing all of this stuff long enough to see that the market just sorts these things out in the long run. Hardworking, talented people will succeed in whatever path they choose to take, and lazy, unmotivated people will generally fail. The best thing to do is just to let the process play out and let people find their natural place.

        University is not a pathway to a job unto itself, rather, it is a springboard for those who know how to take advantage of it to better themselves, their prospects, and to learn. People who can leverage the opportunities they're given will succeed, people who are at university for the wrong reasons usually get sorted out (either through self-realisation or just flunking out) in the process.

  • Ozbargainite on 24/04/2024 - 11:21

    Hopefully in the budget the government does make some changes to HECS. Whilst I support user pays, there are some aspects of how it operates which need adjusting to make it fairer.

    • Marrk on 26/04/2024 - 10:23

      At the very least, indexation should apply after the tax return has been lodged and withheld tax throughout the year has been factored in.

      • luminousfox on 26/04/2024 - 10:38

        I just wish wages would keep up with indexation

  • tsunamisurfer on 24/04/2024 - 11:39
    +3

    The assessment of a University Course to determine whether it is in line with the student's career goals, and its potential to reach the individual's financial goals, should be on………the individual.

    Putting this responsibility on anyone else is tantamount to going to KMart and expecting someone to pick you a shirt, pants, underwear and shoes ensemble.

    There has been so much complaining about HECS lately, its sickening.

    HECS is there to elevate those who cannot to pay upfront, to a position of being eligible for higher learning on their own merits.

    Since it it is so deplorable and indexation is a scam, lets get rid of HECS altogether and let these students get funding from the open credit markets.

    • Presence on 24/04/2024 - 11:41
      +6

      Can 17 and 18 year olds really be trusted to choose a degree? I know in hindsight I would've choosen differently.

      Most people taking on HECS debts would never be given a loan for anything else.

      • zonra on 24/04/2024 - 11:52
        -3

        The options are there to NOT choose a degree until they’re mature enough - take gap years to travel, work, volunteer and explore their strengths and weaknesses, likes and dislike before investing to study.
        Again, why ain’t they assuming responsibilities? Why ain’t their families?
        Should the government take away their freedom to choose, citing that they shouldn’t be trusted to make the right decision? Maybe assign them careers based on their school results and backgrounds?

        • Presence on 24/04/2024 - 15:08
          +1

          That's still a choice.

        • luminousfox on 26/04/2024 - 07:55

          Great idea!, government should offer loans for gap years to travel because every student existing highschool has the funds and family life to allow to a few years off to find yourself.

      • tsunamisurfer on 24/04/2024 - 12:04
        -3

        Can 17 and 18 year olds really be trusted to choose a degree? I know in hindsight I would've choosen differently.

        Yes, they should have a fair idea what they want to do by the time they finish high school. Thats what high school is there for, to put you in a position to choose the next chapter of your life. It doesn't have to be university.

        Most people taking on HECS debts would never be given a loan for anything else.

        If that is the rationale for HECS being invalid then again I propose we scrap HECS, let people with academic merit but no rich parents go to the open market for funding.

      • zombrex on 24/04/2024 - 17:02
        +3

        I think this is the true issue.
        The career advice we got in high school was what job do you want to do. Let's look up the ENTER scored needed for uni.
        No effort at all to work out what the person would be suited for and what / where the trends and needs of the economy are heading. This was in 2007.

        • Ughhh on 25/04/2024 - 20:04
          -1

          Would the career advisor even know the hundreds of students well enough to give that tailored advice? It would all be based on their current grades. Parents should be parents and guide their children.

          At 17/18, you should have an idea what subjects you like, maybe not specifics but you should know if you're a science-maths person, music, literature etc person.

          • luminousfox on 26/04/2024 - 08:08

            @Ughhh: I enjoyed woodworking in year 7, and primary school, but that was the only year you got to do it. So if i wanted to be a cabinet maker or work in construction or anything like that i would have had to have decided at 12 years old that was what i wanted to be in life and followed that externally without school help till i was old enough to enter some kind of tafe course.

            High school is incredibly limited way of presenting you with job ideas, we never really had excursions showing you what a job could be like, or having things broken down for you, id wager that most people here aren't even aware certain fields even exist. How can a teen know they want to artificially inseminate racehorses as their job when all they're presented with is "science"

            • Ughhh on 26/04/2024 - 19:55

              @luminousfox: Your first paragraph makes no sense. Part of growing up is learning new things, including who you are and what you like. Why would you need to have made the decision at 12yo.

              High school prepares you for adulthood, and from memory it encourages initiative and research. There's nothing to stop you from googling what an accountant or process engineer does. If you're hoping for uni to hold your hand, you will fail and other people who adapt will succeed.

    • luminousfox on 24/04/2024 - 11:48

      What's up with these super weak equivalencies…

  • Fredfloresjr on 24/04/2024 - 11:51
    -3

    Blame your parents. First of all, why on earth they didn't save money or get insurance for your Uni.

    Anyway, let ELON run this COUNTRY. Period.

    • payless69 on 24/04/2024 - 12:30
      -2

      No he has insulted another migrant who is wasting more money
      bash him Albo bash him

      • Fredfloresjr on 24/04/2024 - 12:46

        ELON vs ALBO in Octagon.

  • Porker on 24/04/2024 - 12:22

    Comically, and not sure if others see it, but the advert banner showing for me within this thread is '….. No Fee Debt Consolidation…' - NOW Finance

  • Drakesy on 24/04/2024 - 12:24
    +3

    Anything backed by the government gets rorted, dodgy educational institutions have been doing this for years. I remember ACA doing a story on one of these "education institutions" with something like 3000 students, counted 100 people going through the doors over the course of a week…

  • JIMB0 on 24/04/2024 - 14:17
    +2

    Should have done an apprenticeship instead. Almost guaranteed to get a well paid job after finishing and with no debt. For those precious people who protest because they don't want to get dirty there is always the electrical trades, particularly instrumentation.

    • luminousfox on 24/04/2024 - 14:59
      +2

      Oh totally, in hindsight now I'd probably be an electrician, I love construction and woodworking and electronics, But that's the difference between asking a 17 year old what they wanna be and the person I am now

      • p1 ama on 26/04/2024 - 00:29

        in hindsight now I'd probably be an electrician

        Then why aren't you one?

    • Dollar General on 24/04/2024 - 15:13
      +1

      Agree with your sentiment and in hindsight I would do the same now, but disagree with the comments about being precious.

      A few weeks ago I took my mum to a specialist, who fortunately went to uni to study medicine. Then went to get an MRI and the radiologist has a degree. The nurses at the medical facility also have degrees. The pharmacist we saw later that day to get a prescription filled, also has a degree. The scientist who developed the drugs most likely have degrees too

      • brendanm on 24/04/2024 - 16:44
        +1

        Those are useful degrees though, in fields that we actually need good, qualified people in.

        • Dollar General on 24/04/2024 - 19:24

          So are engineering degrees, teaching degrees, math degrees, legal degrees, accounting degrees, computer science/IT.

          The list goes on. Sure an Arts degree may come across as useless to many, but if everyone took on a trade there would be an oversupply and wage growth would be pathetic

          • brendanm on 24/04/2024 - 20:19
            +1

            @Dollar General: There are heaps of useful degrees. There are also heaps of useless ones. There are also degrees to get you into massively oversaturated markets (IT).

            I'm not suggesting everyone do a trade, or no one do a uni degree. Just that people should actually consider not only what it is they want to do, but also the job prospects, and pay prospects, before getting a loan for a degree they will never even use.

      • Drakesy on 26/04/2024 - 11:55

        These aren't the degrees in question…

        It's dubious degrees offered by tier b institutions in management/arts etc… All so they can have a back door into the jobs market.

    • Baghern on 25/04/2024 - 18:42

      nah then he's be whining that he's was on minimum wage worked like a dog, quit, and now is homeless

  • Dollar General on 24/04/2024 - 15:09

    Only guessing here but I would say half of all graduates are not employed in the field they studied in.

    Tertiary education is more about critical thinking, analysis and understanding complex issue and how to tackle them.

    • derrida derider on 25/04/2024 - 15:01
      +3

      Tertiary education, at least at uni level, SHOULD be about critical thinking, analysis and understanding complex issues. It is about "learning to learn" as much as "learning a topic". That's why I don't have any hate at all for good Arts or other theory-focused and generalised degrees - someone whose brain has been properly trained and who has the right self-organisation and attitude will quickly master a wide range of more specialised trades.

      But OP's whinge - a fair one IMO - is that there was none of that in her degree. It was just a crap course, and would have been a crap course whatever the topic.

      There is a lot of it about.

      • luminousfox on 25/04/2024 - 19:03

        Pretty much that! I probably should have made myself more clear, but i was worried if worded it in a way that implied university was some kind of strange unchecked money laundering scam it would receive more hate.

        • arkie0 on 26/04/2024 - 22:24

          That's the main problem these days, 30 years ago you needed a high ATAR to get into Uni so only the smart people got into uni. Generally speaking, smarter people can be taught critical thinking. These days anyone can get into Uni, entrance requirements are lower- pharmacy used to require an ATAR of 94, these days you can get in on 75, there are even Uni courses with a minimum ATAR of like 55.

          I agree with your initial point offering a Uni course for someone who scored in the bottom 10th percentile of ATAR's is obviously not suitable for them which leads to low completion rates, low prospects of a job after the course and a poor experience for the student.

          Government definitely should step in and regulate the industry. If you can't afford home loan you shouldn't be allow one. If you aren't smart enough for Uni you shouldn't be allowed into a course.

  • zombrex on 24/04/2024 - 16:58

    HECS loans and interest fees are so overblown.
    It is still the cheapest loan you will ever get in your life and will allow most to earn significantly more money than if they did not take it.

    • affable on 25/04/2024 - 11:17

      Disagree, in the past 10 years the doctors have been selling their waterfront properties to builders who are the new rich kids on the block. The combination of supply and demand coupled with cash work as pushed trade salaries far higher than reported. I know trades on $300k and 2/3 of that is unreported and untaxed.

      • zombrex on 25/04/2024 - 22:30

        I said most because not everyone can be a tradie, that itself takes it's own set of skills and a type of person that wants to that work.
        Many are very happy to be in office jobs in air condition and not down on their knees in a construction site, even if it means less money.

      • morse on 27/04/2024 - 07:46

        Specialist doctor earns $400k+ in the public service, can earn significantly more depending on specialty and how much private work they do. GPs are probably the worst off at $250k+. Doctors are probably not the best example. They are an example of where their degree and training along with their own significant effort does give them greater earning capacity.

  • monkeybusiness on 24/04/2024 - 19:08

    HECs is one of the best things for students but like everything the Govt provides it is open for exploitation. They wouldn't impose any caps on that as people would complain their future is being taken away as people have incorrectly associated uni education = high paying job.

    This is no longer true and this myth is pertuated by schools telling everyone to attend uni. Unfortunately not everyone is cut out academically for uni. Just because a teen at 17/18 wants to do somethign for a career doesn't mean they have the academics or the aptitute to do it. University for all, while well intentioned, is a really bad outcome for society. A lot of the skills that so called "Degrees" that unis are offering are much more suited for trades tyle training collegues that can be done for a lot cheaper.

    in fact when it comes to earning potential, trades like electicians and plumbers easily out earn a lot of people with uni degrees. The vast majority of people with uni degrees will also never make it into the higher/senior positions that can command those higher salaries.If you are not a A grade student then perhaps a trade is much more suited and will certainly out earn a lot of people with uni degrees, especially those without the in demand skills

  • 2esc on 25/04/2024 - 10:31
    +1

    Education should be free if the course is for a career that is classed as essential.

    Otherwords if your career worked throughout covid its essential.

    All others should be paid for or use Hecs.

  • lonewolf on 25/04/2024 - 12:46
    +2

    Wasnt there something the government did during Covid? I work at a Uni that scrapped a lot of Arts / courses that was deemed not very good for getting jobs after / helping the economy. I believe at the time this was because of something the government had changed in the way of funding.

  • bocca on 25/04/2024 - 12:59
    +1

    Yes & also shouldn't the student scrutinise the course before enrolling?

    • luminousfox on 25/04/2024 - 16:44
      -5

      If a student cant get a sex change without the government asking them a million times if they're certain they want it, go through countless physiological check processes before they're allowed to make such a grand decision that impacts their entire life. Why can the government be so certain that this same student wants debt and a useless degree for the rest of their life

      • luminousfox on 26/04/2024 - 10:36
        -1

        12 of 18 year old's cant possibly understand what they want to be for the rest of their life, now hurry up and use your time in school to decide on what you want to be for the rest of your life!

        • gromit on 26/04/2024 - 11:51

          and you think the government can understand what an 18 year old wants to be for the rest of their life? reality is you make choices and you live with them, many people don't know what they want to be for the rest of their lives at 30 let alone 18, but you make choices and learn from them.

          • luminousfox on 26/04/2024 - 12:06

            @gromit: You totally missed the point, the government does care what an 18 year old wants to be for the rest of their life and will scrutinize the process the entire way, just not for universities apparently. I'd wager everyone here saying that a teen should know exactly what they want and its their fault if they decide also agree that the government needs to step in to stop trans people "making a mistake they might regret".

            • gromit on 26/04/2024 - 12:17

              @luminousfox: No what you do with your body is your choice once you are an adult. The government cannot in any sense know what you want to be. It can make some guesses on past historical information that are usually out of date or wrong (e.g. gaming), but then you could do exactly the same and your school can do the same. You did a game design degree, The government thought this was a good idea at the time, even though just about everyone with knowledge of this sector and IT in general would have said it was a dumb idea. regardless many of the skills learnt will be transferrable to IT, so it wasn't completely useless.

          • luminousfox on 26/04/2024 - 12:10
            -1

            @gromit: We're only just now pushing to have youths tried as adults for violent crimes, that means the entire time the people in power have believed that youths have absolutely no concept of what they're doing and dont hold them accountable. You're not even allowed to vote till you turn 18

        • Ughhh on 26/04/2024 - 12:20
          +1

          You're talking as if you can't change courses or careers at any point, and the skills you learn can not be transferred to a different industry. Your perception needs a little adjustment.

          • gromit on 26/04/2024 - 12:28

            @Ughhh: exactly. I think the drop out rate for my IT degree back in the 90's was around 70% for the first year as people switched courses or left completely. Ironically many switched because what they thought IT was back then was making games rather than math, stats, business analysis, data normalization etc. Changing degrees is not hard and is all part of learning what you really want to do, don't let people and especially not the government dictate what is best for you.

  • scooba on 25/04/2024 - 13:13
    +2

    "Why can you get a huge loan for a course that's essentially never going to get you a job that allows you to pay it back?"

    Because it's one of the most lucrative industries in Australia and the politicians love getting their constituents into debt under the false pretence that the constituents will get a really high paying job from it.

    You're correct, If it looks like a duck(scam) and walks like a duck(scam), it probably is a duck(scam).

  • AustriaBargain on 25/04/2024 - 13:53

    With AI probably assisting teaching soon, you'd hope many uni courses could drop in price enough for the gov to subsidise the whole course again. ChatGPT is able to deduce some things better than some of my professors could, so maybe a teaching aid plus AI would equal a professor's time or whatever.

  • Miss B on 25/04/2024 - 15:14
    +3

    I have a psychology degree and a teaching degree that I'm not using. Actually, I guess I'm kind of using both a bit as a foster carer, but not for my job. I'm still paying back the loans. They've still helped me with getting jobs, some employers prefer people with any degree over no degree. In some ways they feel like a waste of money, but they've given me confidence in other areas of my life, which has led to getting jobs and promotions.

    I know you weren't talking about degrees like psychology and teaching where they are required to work in a particular field, but having the degree doesn't guarantee you'll work in the field or pay back the loans anyway.

    I'm mostly just glad that our system gives almost everyone the opportunity to get a university degree and doesn't bankrupt them as soon as they graduate if they're not making enough.

  • gimme on 25/04/2024 - 17:31

    I'd be more interested in people qualifying to have kids. Sadly that won't happen and the feral gene pool keeps on expanding

    PS: I have a degree I never really used or any employer asked for but I'm not sure it didn't help me at some level.

  • Antikythera on 25/04/2024 - 18:00
    +1

    similar situation myself.

    2.5 years of Engineering. Monash Clayton. failed enough to be excluded. but enjoyed the programming subject.
    year of work.
    0.5 year of Digital Systems via correspondence. Monash Gippsland. High Distinctions were enough to re-enter on-campus.
    0.5 year Information Management (advanced librarian) Monash Clayton. High Distinctions were enough to transfer into preferred course.
    3.5 years of Computer Science. Monash Clayton. Graduated with solid credit average.

    never worked in the field.

    it's not the courses fault.

    some random thoughts
    - i learned more HTML playing web browser based games than during that particular class.
    - this book was a resource for both https://www.booktopia.com.au/web-design-in-a-nutshell-jennif…
    - programming language subjects were equivalent to 1/3 of a regular subject. one semester i did 6 subjects that were languages and two regular subjects for a total of 8 subjects. normally you do 4 subjects a semester for most courses though Eng. was 6.

  • Baghern on 25/04/2024 - 18:26
    +1

    Op is just a lazy as's who took a risk of a 'new degree' of an education skill for a potential job market

    Lost out and now wants to blame the Government for not ensuring jobs for him

    Did op himself not look at the potential jobs looking for those type of qualification

    At the same time thinking he could have gone solo…. yeh I don't see that type of calibre in the Op

    Could have gone with a boring as's Accountant degree, we never have enough accountants…

    Ultimately in most fields, the degree itself doesnt matter much, its the fact that you were able to complete a degree is important. I work in finance we have people with Arts degree, science degree, teaching… etc

    • Baysew on 27/04/2024 - 13:10

      I figure even James T Kirk had to go to Starfleet Academy.

  • Ace26 on 25/04/2024 - 23:38
    +1

    https://news.stanford.edu/2005/06/12/youve-got-find-love-job…

    Sometimes university education might not get you a job on graduation but the knowledge might come handy later in life.

    HECS is a wonderful system that gives access to everyone to quality education without any upfront cots. Sure an 18 year old might not know what they want to do in life when joining uni but options are available and students can change their mind.

    PS: As an international post graduate student from early 2000's, I know paying for fees upfront that is not discounted by the commonwealth was way harder than HECS debt. Especially if the education doesn't lead a well paying job on graduation,

  • Parentheses on 26/04/2024 - 00:04
    +4

    As an academic… uni courses ARE government accredited and audited. The organisation is TEQSA, and it places controls on what can be offered at different degree levels. Of the 4 things you raised, completion rates, student experience, and actual content are all tracked (though only completion rates and content are part of the requirements, because students are students and their opinions on things are less important than the opinions of people who actually know things, nobody really cares if they enjoy their learning so long as they are learning).

    The uni<=>job link is the controversial part, and is not part of the requirements, because unis never used to be job training - that is what TAFE and trade apprenticeships are for. Uni was originally there to teach people 'higher' education, making them all-around more educated citizens. It's only very recently that it became something nearly every job asked people to get, and unis in general reject that as a requirement. Scotty from Marketing tried to bring it in a few years ago with the 'job ready graduates' program, which has been a complete and utter clusterphluck and has been scrapped, partly due to unis outright ignoring it.

    • peteru on 27/04/2024 - 01:33
      +1

      +many

      It requires quite a bit of effort to get a course approved by TEQSA (I know, I've been on several committees that made TEQSA submissions), and while eventual employability is not a direct requirement, it is a natural consequence of the course design. TEQSA will not approve a new course unless there is some relevance to industry / established fields of endeavour. Once a course has been approved, it is regularly reviewed to ensure that it is current and remains relevant.

      Or in other words, you won't be charged HECS for a course that has not been thoroughly reviewed by the government.

  • RefusdClassification on 26/04/2024 - 08:09
    -2

    The problem with our society is that everyone who finishes school goes to University. People with University degrees think they are 'too good' for real jobs, and expect to be paid $200,000 per annum for sitting behind a desk. Hence a shortage of tradesmen, fruit pickers, nursing home staff and other 'blue collar' jobs that the intelligentsia despises.

    We need to greatly massively reduce the number of University places that are subsized by the government, or change to the American model where loans are made available by the government for the full cost of the course. People in highly paid careers like law, dentistry and medicine can pay back the loan in full after only a few years anyway; why should we subsidize them to get rich. 30% of university students get useless degrees in capitalism, economics/commerce/marketing. These degrees make the person getting them rich but contribute nothing to the nation. Hair dressers and couriers and programmers and engineers perform a societally useful function; marketers/spammers don't.

    • rumblytangara on 26/04/2024 - 10:25
      +2

      The last thing we need is follow the "American model" for just about anything. The incredibly hierarchical, high cost education system over there is a great way to perpetuate a polarised class system.

    • iridiumstem on 26/04/2024 - 11:20
      +1

      I find this comment highly ironic, as someone who is from a place where university degree actually is considered almost mandatory (South Korea), where re-doing high school is pretty common to get into a good university. I come from where university ranking strongly determines your worth, and where there is a perceived hierachy in work. I can tell you that my family did push me into doing one of the degree that you deemed useless (which I am not actively using) and one that I am actively using.

      Even during my high school years in Australia (I had to go private as an international student), I did not feel like my friends were really getting forced into doing uni from what I can tell.

      Ultimately, if you are working, you are contributing to the country in one way or another. You are paying taxes, you are doing something that someone deemed was worth the time. With the money you earn, you buy things, which is how economy works. You are doing something that someone somewhere would have needed to do that adds value to someone, and that cycles continues. Just because you are not seeing values in something doesn't mean there aren't any values to others.

      The problem with people not getting into any type of industry in my opinion boils down to human nature. Everyone wants their kids to do better than the previous generation. No one wants to do something that's difficult unless there is a trade off. Push people into doing something, and it would likely result in terrible outcomes. This is coming from someone who's done both blue collar jobs and white collar jobs, there is a trade off somewhere and people tend to gravitate towards what suits them.

  • gromit on 26/04/2024 - 08:10
    -1

    The responsibility rests with the student, if the student can't be bothered properly researching their career before hand that is on them. The last thing we need is the government dictating which courses are allowed as they will ALWAY"S be behind the curve. Most courses both good and bad provide very little that helps in your employee knowledge wise, but what it does provide is skills in managing workloads, meeting timelines and some of the basics. I did an IT degree and an Honours I don't think I have used a single thing from it since finishing UNI despite working as a Dev and IT consultant all my life, but it was still highly valuable.

  • chasingstoke on 26/04/2024 - 12:24

    "Edit: I think I have to remember that people on the internet just want to argue against whatever they read, so whatever opinion I want to have agreed with I should write the opposite and I'll have people scrambling to agree with me"

    At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

  • iridiumstem on 26/04/2024 - 12:25

    I agree with your sentiment (I was young and naive when I was 18, I am now just naive). There may have been something that suits me better, and I am not going to lie, some part of me feels like I have been put in a pathway from that choice when I was 18.

    I don't think anyone can really determine what is going to be the best job for someone, or where the investments lead to. I did economics and psychology, my parents pushed me to do economics. While I am getting some value out of it, I am not actively using economics degree. This is ironic, since the reason why my parents wanted me to do economics was because of the job prospect (Asian parents being Asian I suppose). Who knows, in 5 years time, I might be using my economics degree and not much of my psych degree or even, I might be somewhere completely different.

    I've seen a lot of people in psychology who've had different vocational roles previously. Similarly, something that pop up all the time with psychology is, undergrads who feel like they cannot do any clinical work and feels like they are stuck. I've seen people transitioning into different fields from psychology for that reason. That said, everyone seem to use something from their past life in one way or another.

  • curtturtle on 26/04/2024 - 12:58

    The difference between a bank loan and a HECS loans is the bank loan requires you to pay it back regardless of income. HECS loan only starts paying back when you earn a certain amount. So they don't need to check you earn enough to pay it back, it only triggers when you can pay it back.

    As for checking for a courses ability to get you a job that will earn enough, if they did, people would be up in arms as art degrees would cease to be HECS covered and only medicine, engineering and law degrees would be.

  • mitt on 26/04/2024 - 19:18

    I would suggest a threshold be set for graduates of a course. The percentage of people who are employed at a rate that they have paid off their HECS debt above inflation is the % of the fee that can be covered by HECS going forward.

    Only 70% of your grads are ahead paying off their HECS debt after 5 years? Well from here on out 30% of your fees have to be fronted by the student.

    It would provide incentive for people to choose high-demand degrees & make the degrees without value but with high fees really feel the pinch.

  • Scantu on 27/04/2024 - 10:50

    imagine being able to think for yourself, why should the government save you from your own decisions?

  • May4th on 27/04/2024 - 11:31

    I think the problem is, who gets to decide what is a "worthy degree" ?
    Are you using economics and jobs as a measure? If you were brilliant in a niche field, say Brewing and Distillery (actually offered overseas) is it fair the government will subsidise the cost of a BArts grad who will never draw a wage in their life, over yours?

  • xiaoli on 27/04/2024 - 13:48

    Since when has an university degree ever guaranteed someone a job?

  • Eeples on 27/04/2024 - 15:32

    I doubt you (or hardly anyone) could afford a home loan if they lost their jobs.

    Story time
    —————-
    A friend of mine did a year of teaching degree , spent a day in the classroom, no good. Then changed to some kind of electrical degree; too hard and didn’t like it.

    He’s in his early 20s now working as an apprentice mechanic and loving it.

    The pressures to go to uni were family and friends and also a lack of direction.

    He’s saddled with a relatively big HECS debt.

  • FireRunner on 27/04/2024 - 16:21

    Edit: I think I have to remember that people on the internet just want to argue against whatever they read, so whatever opinion I want to have agreed with I should write the opposite and I'll have people scrambling to agree with me

    Are you here for a discussion or just confirmation bias?

    • May4th on 27/04/2024 - 16:38

      OzEchoChamber

    • luminousfox on 27/04/2024 - 19:53
      -1

      When most of the replies think they have me figured are are just aggressively telling me the exact experiences I had couldn't have possibly happened then you kinda realize people dont want a discussion and just take it as a chance to put you down.

      I think everyone online has just slowly been losing their sense of empathy from being over exposed to things like reddit drama and post covid depression or maybe just even burnout from being sympathetic for too long, remember when "thoughts and prayers" was a genuine response?. I'm trying to notice this in myself and be more thoughtful and thankful when people take the time to actually think about both sides of a discussion.

      Its just tiring to have a "discussion" online now and is essentially the same as trying to convince their religion is wrong, neither of you are likely to change your conviction based on a few paragraphs so what's even the point of it.

  • helpme on 27/04/2024 - 22:08

    I've seen a few comments about people not studying 'practical degrees'. Just my 2 cents, there was an age of when education was valued, and people studied things that, at the time had zero practical applications in science, arts, and especially when it came to pure maths.

    Yet without those people who discovered and studied 'impractical degrees' we wouldn't have the modern world. I doubt we'd have computers without people discovering calculus, and algebra and number theory, which I can't imagine having any real world use at the time

    So those who look at things as having "no real world applications", we're humans and our existence really only means something is we pursue endeavours beyond survival and that in the process I argue we get so much more practical applications. The Australian synchrotron and LHAD have given us leaps in the medical field, agriculture, forensics, etc. so instead of telling people to study useful degrees, we should be asking why the government isn't providing enough resources for these people who have the potential to pursue things that can advance humanity.

    • brandt on 07/05/2024 - 13:20

      We need more corporate apprenticeships and acknowledge that most white collar jobs are forms trades that do not require the conceptual base University education imparts. Why do I need a HR assistant with a degree in psychology when all I need them to do is manage succesfactors or Fieldglass or various payrolls.. Why do I need someone with a degree in math or business to be a Supply Chain Analyst when I can teach someone with basic understanding of business how to do forecasting, extract and analyse data, set up excel formulas, read dashboards and write good comms? None of those things are taught in a useful way in a business degree.

      Ultimately if I wanted someone to analyse the depths of agency theory to recommend a new model for management incentives.. I would hire a consultant.

      • helpme on 07/05/2024 - 17:22

        I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just pointing out the fact that everytime an argument like this pops up, it's always "should've studied something useful or practical" when so much of human advancement was made through studying the impractical and when we have young, curious, and intelligent minds, they should be able to pursue their field without having to worry about feeding themselves. We shouldn't box them into a 'practical' job because it's a waste of talent.

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