Why Do All Properties in Australia Have Terrible Insulation?

alex123711 on 21/08/2022 - 09:39

Nearly every place I have stayed in (houses and apartments) have terrible insulation and energy efficiency e.g windows leaking air, draughts, no heat retention etc and you need heaters even in mild temperatures.

Compared to Europe/ Japan and other places around the world that seem to be better built for weather. I even read an article that Sydney/ Melbourne homes/ apartments use more energy for heating than London despite being much milder.

Why is this, is it developers cutting corners, building as cheaply as possible? Landlords having no incentive to spend money on insulation/ energy efficiency?

What are the best ways you have found that help? Have tried the window strips etc.

Home & Garden

Comments

    • 0FoxGiven on 21/08/2022 - 11:31
      +4

      How do I become your friend?

    • cashless on 21/08/2022 - 11:42
      +3

      Wow. Must be a really good friend

    • MrThing on 21/08/2022 - 12:40
      +6

      I too can assist you with laundering your money

    • loulou1 on 21/08/2022 - 16:58
      +22

      Must be a good friend since you didn’t even want wifey to have a $7,000 range hood
      https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/714783

    • TightAssDude on 21/08/2022 - 20:10
      +2

      Nice flex

  • Odin on 21/08/2022 - 12:03
    +27

    Why is this, is it developers cutting corners, building as cheaply as possible? Landlords having no incentive to spend money on insulation/ energy efficiency?

    Yes, that's true, but the biggest factor of all is that Australian's are lazy, ignorant idiots when it comes to insulation.

    We say stupid things like "our weather means we don't need insulation"

    When our weather regularly ranges from 0-40 over the year.

    People simply won't pay for it, and they're too used to suffering through summer/winter.

    Talk about double glazing to someone and they're like "what?"

    If you want to know what to do to fix things:

    • Double glazing minimum on all windows
    • Draught stoppers everywhere
    • Test completed buildings for air infiltration and air leaks
    • Insulate the (profanity) walls (no walls are insulated here)
    • Insulate the ceilings and floor properly
    • outlander on 21/08/2022 - 17:55
      +1

      I agree, but people are lazy and ignorant everywhere. I doubt your average european or an englishman could tell you exactly why insulation is important, only that it is. People in general just do what everyone else is doing.

      Question is, why has 'everyone' in Australia failed to appreciate the benefits of things like insulation for so long? I don't know, but I'm guessing Murdock and the coal & gas industry's grip on this country is to blame in some way.

      • Odin on 21/08/2022 - 21:23
        +4

        Why? I'd probably say the answer is that Australians have accepted terrible building quality for decades and insulation is simply one of the many things that is so low in quality everywhere nobody knows different.

      • MrTweek on 22/08/2022 - 17:21
        +3

        I doubt your average european or an englishman could tell you exactly why insulation is important

        Bullshit. I grew up in Europe and everyone knows damn well why it sucks to freeze in winter. People regularly pay a lot of money to improve their insulation beyond legal minimum standards because it can easily save you a couple of grand in electricity and gas bills every year.

        You don't need to be an expert to know this. People are coming to Australia in winter and are go like "why the (profanity) is everyone wearing their jackets inside?"

        • outlander on 22/08/2022 - 19:17
          +1

          I'll take that aggressive response as evidence I'm correct. I assure you there's far more to it than just "I'm cold"

          A lot of the benefit of insulation revolves around body physiology and psychology. Not just the feeling of being able to relax and take off your clothing, which metaphorically is a type of armor, but also how the body reacts to radiant sources of hot&cold, which is why you can't just add a little extra heat to compensate for lack of insulation.

          Underfloor insulation is a great example of this. From a cost engineering perspective, the floor would be the last place to insulate. Heat rises, so if you were looking to minimize heat loss you'd go ceiling, then walls, focusing mostly on windows, and only once everything else had been done tackle the floors. BUT, human feet both have quite an array of senses and tend to be poorly supplied with blood. If you're walking around in bare feet, your feet will get cold quickly, and then they get stiff. Your brain detects this as a movement problem, and you find yourself less motivated to move around.

          • MrTweek on 22/08/2022 - 21:00
            +2

            @outlander: Yeah, I mean you are explaining in detail why people don't like being cold from a scientific point of view.

            That's all nice and cool, but all that isn't necessary to know why insulation is important.

            What's next? Explaining that the average people eating food every day can't even tell you exactly why they are eating food?

      • koalabargains on 23/08/2022 - 11:18
        +10

        Listen friend I'll tell you the truth. Which isnt in any book because theres a centurys worth of unfunded anthropology here.

        There's three reasons:

        1- Australians got used to cheap/free energy costs.
        2- Australia used to be very very poor and developed a culture of deprivation which continues to this day.
        3- Australians have the worst tradies on earth.

        1) So in the colonial era there were giant gum trees basically eveyrwhere in the southern states. Where did they go? They were burned for firewood. Millennia worth of trees were burned. Thats how this started. They knew about basic insulation back then, they had wattle-and-daub methods. They werent used here. Why bother when you could get an entire tree for a couple pence?

        So people got used to sitting around the one warm spot in the house while everything else was cold. Which is what continued onto the modern period with subsidized electricity. See the old shitty electric heaters in all the old houses? Well until the 90s the energy market was state subsidized. A lotta coal! just burned! So people could have temporarily warm houses.

        Even now, more people heat their houses with wood proportionally than any other civilised country on earth. Sydney and Melbourne smell of burning wood in winter. Its insane.

        2) Australians developed a culture of deprivation which continues to this day. Look up a chip heater - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip_heater Yeah. That's severe poverty. Australians went without for so long that they internalized the deprivation. Theres endless forums and threads with foreigners asking why these houses are so bad, going back to the start of the internet. And the responses are mostly hostile. Its only now that people are acknowledging the truth - Australian houses by ANY MEASURE are (profanity) TERRIBLE. And even now, in this thread, there's a bunch of people who are mindlessly defending the system.

        That's the culture of deprivation. If you tell an American their house is cold, its a deep insult. They will try to fix the house. If you tell an Australian their house is cold they will make a joke at your expense and tell you to put on a jacket.

        "Oh you should be used to this, you're from _______ (ANYWHERE ELSE)"
        "Put on a sweater"
        "Winter is supposed to be cold"

        That's all the culture of deprivation. Australians defend the status quo because for the longest time there was no other option.

        3) Australian tradies are who done this. Countless stories exist of peopel finding unopened insulation bags found years after building. Tradies build terrible terrible houses and pretend the blame is on anyone else.

        Take external wall. Most Australian houses have external wall of 90mm (weather board) to maybe 160 for brick veneer.That is poverty. In America or england or really anyhwere else, its about 300mm at least. Even in the third world where they build with bessa blocks, the external wall thickness is double Australias. Tradies know this. Architects know this. Draftsmen know this.

        If you have external wall of 300mm any idiot can throw in insulation after the fact and a ALOT of it. With only 90mm to gut the house for one single r2.7batt is dumb.

        Then you got slabs man, (profanity) slabs. They dont build with crawlspaces here so if they didnt insulate that slab there isnt much you can do about it. Then the glass.

        Glass used to be very expensive in Australia. When it became cheap in the 70s, people went CRAZY. There are houses with 30sqm+of single glazed glass. Every house must have giant single glazed sliding glass doors. Its sooo stupid.

        The tradies exist to rip people off on a systemic and breathtaking scale.

        Take double glazed glass and windows. Search this forum and youll see the prices are insane. Why? The glass isnt made here mostly. Mostly its sent from china. The aluminium extrusions arent made here, neither are the hardware. So why does an australian made doubel glazed window cost $2000 when its $200 usd elsewhere?

        Well we ship all the components across teh sea and then pay the most expensive and terribel labour to assemble. Why not simply order windows from abroad??? more and more people do.

        But then you have the problem of standardization. So most countries have a standard window size. Go into a shop in the UK, US, France and youll find a STANDARD window. You can go into their version of bunnings and buy a standard double glazed window. Why cant you do that in Australia?

        Because nearly every window in every house in Australia is custom sized. Hahah, every single one. Go into the builders village of any development..every single window will be a different size.

        Why. WHY? WHYYYYYYYYYYYYY? would ANY COUNTRY do this? becuase (profanity) YOU is why.

        If the windows are all custom then you need a carpenter to enlarge the hole or shrink the hole to fit another window. OR youre forced to get another custom window made up for that opening. You see? if they were standard sizes, the market would be FLOODED with foreign made windows.

        Anyway, rant over friend.

        Its not murdock. Its not the coal and gas industry. ITS THE (profanity) TRADIES

        • freshofftheplane on 24/08/2022 - 09:24

          Best comment ever

        • Odin on 24/08/2022 - 09:41

          Amazing post. Should be an article on the ABC or smh

    • Fobsessive on 24/08/2022 - 20:44

      Sounds expensive for existing houses unfortunately. We have single windows, door snakes. Dunno if there's anything in the walls…probably not. It's a shame how poor volume builds are.

    • moar bargains on 21/08/2022 - 15:09
      +2

      I don't think most places in Europe that have way better buildings and insulation than us vary that much more. E.g. I usually get a few frosts in winter where I live, which is an outdoor temperature of 0°C. I also get >40°C outdoors in summer. London typically ranges from -1 to 29, and Berlin from -10 to 31. All are similar ranges, but chalk and cheese in building standards.

    • koalabargains on 23/08/2022 - 12:08

      yeah its been cold for close to 2 centuries and australians have never done anything about it.

    • Odin on 24/08/2022 - 09:41

      Temps here go from 0-40 each year.

      That's more variation than London and most USA cities

  • [Deactivated] on 21/08/2022 - 12:07
    +10

    It is very, very, very inexpensive to install it when you are building. I don't think builders offer more than what is required by law. You have to ask for it.

    • pangwen on 21/08/2022 - 12:15
      +3

      Agreed - we basically asked our builder “what’s the most insulation you can give us” and did that.

      I think with people getting more aware of how insulation isn’t just a “green” thing and can improve comfort, there are opportunities for builders to offer an upgrade pack that includes fully upgraded insulation (ie as much as will fit) on external walls and the maximum available for the ceiling too. They’re just more interested in the marketing opportunities of “luxury upgrade packs” at the moment.

  • SF3 on 21/08/2022 - 13:18
    -5

    Why Do All Properties in Australia
    Nearly every place I have stayed in

    Over generalised just a bit.

    • MrTweek on 22/08/2022 - 17:23
      +1

      I've never been to a house in Australia where insulation is anywhere near as good as in Europe. And I've seen a lot of houses.

  • Drakesy on 21/08/2022 - 14:02
    +3

    Completely agree.
    Unfortunately the quality of constructions in Australia is terrible and it means corners are very often cut.
    First things to go are double brick walls, double thickness insulated glass etc.

    Should really be mandatory to reduce energy use.

    • netjock on 24/08/2022 - 10:47
      +2

      People would rather have an extra 2 squares of space for the price than having insulation.

  • jjjaar on 21/08/2022 - 14:24
    +1

    Ask any Brit how their houses cope in summer and they’ll say it’s just as shite as Australian houses in winter. They don’t have fans let alone air cons.

    UK may have more energy efficient heating options, but I wouldn’t go so far to say they have better insulated houses. Some houses do, yes, but not most, and especially not for renters. The ones I lived in were just as crap as here, with single glazed windows and double brick buildings that stay cold if the sun doesn’t get in. And to keep them warm, they have their water central heating on 24/7. Something you can easily mimic with a split system or some electric oil heaters, albeit the latter at a higher cost.

    • koalabargains on 23/08/2022 - 12:09

      Lol. Today I learned insulation only works against the cold, not heat.

      • jjjaar on 23/08/2022 - 13:03

        I didn’t say that. At all.

        I said UK doesn’t actually have better insulation.

        They have cheaper heating options, so it doesn’t seem like you’re using so much because you’re not paying a truckload, even if it’s on 24/7.

        Also, in most rentals in the UK, bills are included in your rent costs, so you legitimately have no idea how much you’re actually spending on heating. Even if your rent is thousands of £ a month, there is no breakdown.

        • koalabargains on 23/08/2022 - 17:01
          +1

          The UK absolutely has better insulation.

          The UK building regulations have standards on air leakage.

          https://www.homebuilding.co.uk/advice/airtightness

          "When we meet Building Regulations standards (Part L1A) on airtightness, this leakage can be no more than 10m³/h/m²@50pa — or 10m3/hr. What this means is that no more than 10 cubic metres of air can escape per hour for every square metre of the envelope surface area, with an internal air pressure of 50 Pascals."

          That is science fiction in Australia and not covered in our building code at all. They have tested Australian houses many times and found they are extremely leaky.

          https://ecos.csiro.au/testing-the-leakiness-of-australian-ho…

          So this is on new houses:

          "Overall the study found that newly constructed houses in Australia:

          -Have a broad range of air-tightness levels, ranging from world’s best practice through to much higher than the assumed air tightness levels in the NatHERS (Nationwide House Energy Rating Scheme) software.

          -The average air change rate was 15.4 ACH@50Pa. This is leaky by international standards.

          -Several houses recorded air change rates above 30 ACH@50Pa, which is common amongst old poorly sealed houses, but should be considered unacceptable for a newly constructed house. There is reason for concern about why so many houses recorded poor results.

          So the average NEW Australian house is TWICE AS LEAKY as the MINIMUM STANDARDS in the UK.

          And thas new houses, they have found houses that are 3 times as leaky, which is basically the same as just being outdoors.

          There is no evidence on EARTH that Australian houses are have more insulation than UK houses….it is a RIDICULOUS thing to say.

          You cannot use heating costs because their standard for heating is so much higher than ours. If you have an insulated house you can get people wasting heat to be at 28 degrees in winter. In Australia that's unthinkable, when people pay for heating, theyre trying to not die of exposure, we're talking 20 degrees max.

          Im sorry but Australian houses perform worse in every possible standard, not just winter, not just summer. Always.

          • jjjaar on 23/08/2022 - 18:01

            @koalabargains:

            There is no evidence on EARTH that Australian houses are have more insulation than UK houses….it is a RIDICULOUS thing to say.

            1 - I never said this. Stop doing that.

            2 - Standards and requirements are great, but compliance with standards is another thing.

            I rented for several years across the UK and my actual lived experience is what I have explained above. Landlords simply do not give a *%#! about standards when it comes to renting their houses out to non-Brits.

            • koalabargains on 24/08/2022 - 14:22
              +1

              @jjjaar: Okay let me put this clearly.

              You said

              UK may have more energy efficient heating options, but I wouldn’t go so far to say they have better insulated houses.

              I am saying,No.

              The UK Has better insulated houses than Australia.

    • netjock on 24/08/2022 - 10:49
      +1

      In the UK my Victoria Terrace built 1900. Upgraded to double glaze windows in the 80s is much cooler than Australian houses. That is even without wall insulation (single brick + plaster).

      Don't joke around.

      • koalabargains on 24/08/2022 - 16:01

        Its worse than joking around, its idiotic misinformation and failed sophistry.

        In the purpose of what?

        Why would ANYONE argue UK houses are worse in ANY respect than Australian houses? Its ridiculous. Its demonstrably false, by ANY CONCEIVABLE measure.

        Australians just perpetuate (profanity) nonsense. You cant fix a problem until you admit it's a problem.

        There is comparison of UK houses to Australian. They are not peers. One towers over the other. Australian houses can only be compared with structures in the developing world. Literally.

        https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/aug/16/austr…

        When the World Health Organization says your houses are cold and mouldy, thats not peer country stuff. That's DEEP DEEP third world poverty we're talking about.

        • netjock on 24/08/2022 - 16:52

          Why would ANYONE argue UK houses are worse in ANY respect than Australian houses? Its ridiculous

          Have seen single glazing in the UK. But finding single glaze is harder than finding double glaze here.

          Everyone here didn't go double glaze because cost of energy was cheap to heat homes during winter and evap cooling during summer.

          Now people are really going to be paying for it.

          Roof batts scandal aside. The government should really fund a team (actually real professionals) that just goes the insulates the country (especially those who are on low incomes).

          People in the UK don't even quote for single glazing. Double glazing is default.

  • [Deactivated] on 21/08/2022 - 14:29
    +8

    i've lived in 3 houses in the last 5 or so years, 2 were very modern (1 was built around 2013 and the other was built in 2007) and 1 was very old (about 80 - 90 years old)

    modern building standards are just crap. the bare minimum is below what i'd consider the bare minimum. both the modern houses looked sleek, modern (which in my opinion looks awful) but felt like mcmansions with the short cuts such as lack of insulation, especially in the interior walls, i could hear a conversation several rooms away, though the people i lived with were quite loud anyway. it was like living under a drum in one of the houses, my room was unfortunately right below the kitchen / dining / living room area (the joys of open plan..) and every step sounded like elephants thundering across the roof, again the people were not exactly light of foot, or considerate, but that wouldn't have been such a problem in the old house. the old house is double brick, much better insulated from heat / cold, it's just built better.

    builders and tradies are just largely lazy and dodgy people, especially for what they get paid. building costs almost always blow out (it's at the point where you should factor this into the budget) as well as deadlines not being met, there is too much of an attitude that it's "good enough" when it isn't, or "she'll be right" when she won't. we're too laid back in the standards department.

    • TightAssDude on 21/08/2022 - 20:14
      +1

      Tradies are super lazy and mostly don't give a shit… Why? Because by the time a problem surfaces, they are long and gone.

      There would be not one tradie that would sacrifice profit over quality!

      • [Deactivated] on 21/08/2022 - 20:44
        +3

        there are some that actually care about the quality of their work, giving the customer what they paid for, but they are few and far between.

      • koalabargains on 23/08/2022 - 10:47

        If we could just import tradies, these problems would vanish.

        From anywhere. Anywhere on earth. Anyone would be better than we've got.

    • netjock on 24/08/2022 - 10:52

      builders and tradies are just largely lazy and dodgy people, especially for what they get paid. building costs almost always blow out (it's at the point where you should factor this into the budget) as well as deadlines not being met, there is too much of an attitude that it's "good enough" when it isn't, or "she'll be right" when she won't

      Most people in the trades hardly finished year 10 back in their day. Now thy might have finished year 12 with barely a pass. They don't teach you ethics in trade school. Neither do they teach you professionalism.

      I asked once about doing a cert IV in building and the teacher actually laughed when I told him I have a double degree, plus professional year qualification, plus an MBA. Won't let me in because their prerequisite was having done a trade qualification and 3 years of work experience.

  • Ori0n on 21/08/2022 - 15:02
    +13

    The building industry in Australia is a giant ponzi scheme where new sales (i.e. deposits) fund the building of existing contracts and so builds are often built as quickly and cheaply as humanly possible - particularly with volume builders. Boutique, custom builders are likely to do a better job. Corners are cut where possible and the vast majority of buyers think they have no role in the building process and dont proactively engage with inspections to make sure the builder is conforming to the engineered, contracted plans. Then they wonder why they have issues a few years down the track when the warranty expires. Even when issues are found early, magically everything is within 'tolerances' and the building contracts are written by the industry themselves and are heavily weighted towards the builders, not the home owner.

    Air-tightness in Australia is a joke and is arguably a bigger problem than insulation - we are constantly heating and cooling air thats just leaking back outside, terribly terribly inefficient. If I were building today I'd be seriously considering passivhaus standards (or close to it) for air-tightness (internal and external wraps etc e.g. pro clima), reducing thermal bridges, high performance windows/doors and mechanical ventilation with heat recovery (MVHR).

    • PeterSnoot on 22/08/2022 - 12:09
      +2

      Genuine question: Ideally, how do you ensure you get a mix of fresh air into a house where you have sealed off all leaks? Opening a double-glazed window to "let in some fresh air" seems to defeat the whole point of double-glazing so I'm sure that there is a smarter way.

      • Ori0n on 22/08/2022 - 12:44
        +2

        Great question - and it's where the mechanical ventilation with heat recovery comes in. It's constantly bringing in fresh air (and recovering the heat from the expelled air, and vice versa in summer). They are pretty cool units.

        You can, of course, still open the high performance double (or triple! glazed) windows and doors, they are still very much designed to be opened when you want instant fresh area to a particular area but when done well the idea is the temperature inside will remain around 21-22 degrees regardless of the outside temperature.

    • netjock on 24/08/2022 - 10:53

      The building industry in Australia is a giant ponzi scheme where new sales (i.e. deposits) fund the building of existing contracts

      Not really. It is a ponzi scheme where contracts fund tradies who steal money / materials to refurbish their own homes / investment properties and pay for utes.

  • AustriaBargain on 21/08/2022 - 16:08
    +3

    How does paying for insulation and efficient heating/cooling help make property investors richer?

  • orangetrain on 21/08/2022 - 16:39
    -1

    There's no regulation because it allows politicians with a house portfolio to pretend they're improving housing affordability.

    Also, all councillors are corrupt af because who would work for 20k per year?

  • [Deactivated] on 21/08/2022 - 17:14
    +3

    I always talk about how terrible are the ways most houses are built considering the insulation and airflow. Few other ridiculously dumb practices I have noticed for the houses are built are:
    1) Bathroom is built in the deepest parts of the house, there is no access to fresh airflow. This causes moulds and leaks become more damaging as the water sits without evaporating for way longer.
    2) Kitchens do not have access to fresh air, all the cooking smells, oil and moisture gets logged and stays in the house for way longer if the kitchen had a window access.
    3) Laundries do not have access to fresh air from outside and all the lint and micro fibres collect in the house and over a long term people maybe breathing them in and the fibres stay in your lungs for a long time, especially clothes made from polyester.

    Ventilation systems are known to carry and spread a lot of bacteria like legionnaires disease etc. they can also help mould, bacteria and virus to spread everywhere quicker, so it may help when there are no other options but it is not the best solution in most cases as they require regular maintenance.

    • Jugganautx on 21/08/2022 - 21:02

      How would all of these rooms access fresh air apart from windows….

      • FoxJump on 21/08/2022 - 22:57

        openable roof?

      • WT on 22/08/2022 - 07:41
        +2

        exhaust fan

        Pretty sure you can get them with timers too so the fan stays on for a certain time after you turn off the switch

        The other issue is, the inline exhaust fans are mostly under powered and cleaning the duct is basically not something anyone does

    • Bunnings298 on 21/08/2022 - 21:51
      +1

      Check out this article. It’s eye opening. Seem’s it’s not only the build but the ratings that are being stuffed up

      https://yourbesthome.com.au/read/the-worst-home-they-can-bui…

    • mapax on 22/08/2022 - 08:01
      +1

      You just described my apartment.
      No windows or fresh air in the bathroom.
      Kitchen has no windows and is as far as it could be from an external door and the exhaust fan is a pathetic charcoal filter that vents back into the kitchen.
      The laundry is in a closet and shares an exhaust fan with the bathroom and blows lint back into the bathroom.

      • Hangryuman on 22/08/2022 - 10:39

        'The laundry is in a closet and shares an exhaust fan with the bathroom and blows lint back into the bathroom'

        then it's a bad design - either a shonky build from new or a bad add-on of a second fan

        a common mistake in your case might be adding a ceiling fan flush to the laundry ceiling which can then blow lint out the bathroom duct rather than out an external vent

        check for what should be installed - an inline (hidden) axial fan between the bathroom ceiling vent and the external vent, which when turned on, draws from both the laundry and bathroom ceiling ducts

        • mapax on 23/08/2022 - 22:00

          There is an axial fan between the external vent and the laundry with a duct branching off to the bathroom. To make it even worse the bathroom fan vent is above the door instead of near the shower so it barely sucks any steam.
          The general lack of ventilation is even more of a problem.

          • Hangryuman on 24/08/2022 - 19:25

            @mapax: 'The general lack of ventilation is even more of a problem'

            I have seen tenants who have kept all doors and windows closed, then complained about mould from the lack of ventilation.

            If you have an extractor fan on with closed windows, chances are it ain't gonna work very well until you open a window to allow fresh air to replace the air being pushed out the extractor fan duct.

            • JIMB0 on 25/08/2022 - 10:06

              @Hangryuman: Australian houses are so leaky that opening a window makes no difference.

    • 900dollaridoos on 23/08/2022 - 06:33

      What would you use in place of ventilation systems to stop bacteria?

      • [Deactivated] on 24/08/2022 - 16:29
        +1

        There are tradeoffs to every design however having access to fresh and natural air flowing in these areas is very critical instead of solely relying on the ventilation system. It is not only energy efficient but also way cleaner. I have seen way more congested apartments in Japan built very thoughtfully.

        This is one of the well ventilated buildings in Sydney http://1bligh.com.au/Sustainability-Features

  • kaleidoscope on 21/08/2022 - 22:10
    +1

    From my experience its not a priority for most people / builders…
    Because builders want to keep the face value of the houses lower and as a result do not put in more energy efficient solutions in the first place. Examples below. By default most of the equipments that are included in a house are the cheapest and most energy in-efficient.

    1) Energy efficient heaters cost almost double.
    2) Zoned heating and cooling attracts alot of upfront cost
    3) Windows are the areas where the energy gets wasted to outside, yet the better options such as double glazing cost a fortune.
    4) Heat pump / inverter systems are often left out because they are more expensive for initial cost.
    5) Despite whats advertised as the requirement standard for 6-7 star energy is very poor.

    • gromit on 22/08/2022 - 09:53

      I am doing zoned heating and cooling and it is relatively inexpensive when done during build. Zoning only adds a couple of hundred per zone on top of the price. Double glazing is a killer price wise. I am currently in discussion with my builder as I requested thermally broken double glazing and he didn't even want to quote it as said it would be too expensive, I am insisting on at least a quote but indications are it adds another 50% ontop of double glazing.

      • kaleidoscope on 22/08/2022 - 10:09

        For me zoning costed fair bit, about $400 per additional zone + $2000 for the heating unit upgrade (builder’s included model for the price did not support it)

        Double glazing was ludicrous and was around $11k upgrade to which i said no.

        • gromit on 22/08/2022 - 10:13

          interesting, my zone cost is $240 extra per zone. builders included model supports zoning already so no extra for that. I need at least 7 star for my new build so double glazing was the default, not sure what it would be without that. still waiting on the quote for the requested high inwall and roof R rating batts and for the inwall sound insulation.

      • JIMB0 on 22/08/2022 - 11:27

        Wouldn't timber window frames be a cheaper alternative to thermally broken aluminium?

        • kaleidoscope on 22/08/2022 - 11:39

          Nah, builder’s included frames were aluminium. Wooden frames were 🤑

        • gromit on 22/08/2022 - 11:45

          maybe, would prefer the aluminum frames for the look we are after, so unless the cost does come back ridiculous we want to go that way, but definitely a thought for options should price become an issue.

  • EspressoDan on 22/08/2022 - 04:00
    +3

    There are some areas in Australian industry that are indescribably shonky compared to what should be expected from a regulated industry.

    The building industry is the worst offender.

    At this stage, it's just grift. As long as the paint looks ok, who cares what's underneath.

  • down-under on 22/08/2022 - 06:52
    +2

    Reading through all the comments… Am I the only weirdo that does not use heaters? I.e. 0 energy cost on heating (In Sydney area)

    Currently living in Seattle and the house is better insulated but in the hotter days (30°C or higher) the house is unlivable without AC.

    • shaybisc on 22/08/2022 - 09:41
      +1

      I live on the mid north coast of NSW and have not owned a heater since 1989. It's mild and I dress for the conditions. And I'm a wimp, compared to all these people I see getting about in shorts on winter mornings.

  • YorHa2B on 22/08/2022 - 07:12
    +3

    When I was having Swedish lessons, we had people who were from northern Europe and North America and they, and my teacher from Sweden, all agreed with each other at how winter in Sydney was so much worse than where they're from. Because despite their winter temps being a lot lower than ours and even having snow, the houses over there were designed for the cold with good insulation and central heating and so on. But here, our houses weren't designed for the cold. So they considered Sydney's winters so much worse.

  • h0mbre on 22/08/2022 - 08:15
    +11

    Builder here.

    Our standards and building conventions are conservative and old fashioned.
    Due to our climate in major cities, there hasn’t really been a push for efficient building practices.

    I think with the recent weather anomalies that seem to becoming more of the norm, there will be a push by some savvy homeowners to include more efficient components in their builds.

    The unfortunate thing is that for the bulk of clients (volume homes etc) these components could be aesthetically identical but cost more than double or triple initially. Most would not be looking at the long term savings. People are happy to sign for a 30 year mortgage but not calculate the energy savings over 30 years.

    I am actually working on a couple of passive house projects and am looking to educate myself and my team further on some of the techniques used to achieve passive house certification and apply these to normal builds.

    There can be a healthy medium between the garbage we build now and full passive house compliance.

    • Mistredo on 23/08/2022 - 13:16

      How much cost new passive house compared to new volume house?

  • Boogerman on 22/08/2022 - 08:32
    +2

    Because we've historically had shit building standards. Go to Europe to see what quality residential construction is

  • Hangryuman on 22/08/2022 - 10:32

    Australia's largest city Sydney is considered a temperate zone - ice and snow not expected, over 40C not really expected - so not really needing much heating or cooling

    and developers lobby Australian governments to block any improvements to the Building Code that won't increase their profit margin

    Germany may have double-glazing and good insulation for freezing winters but apparently don't tend to have air-conditioning for hot summers so old people have been dying from heat prostration during recent heat waves in Europe

    US and Scandinavia may have superinsulated homes with heat exchangers, but apart from one DIY engineer enthusiast, I've never heard of a heat exchanger being installed in an Australian home.

  • Drumadd on 22/08/2022 - 10:45
    +1

    Insufficient regulation/building code and cost

  • garddn on 22/08/2022 - 11:08
    -1

    Because before the chase for replaceables aka renewables, places like Victoria had the cheapest and most abundant electricity in the OECD so heating or cooling your home was cheap and you didn't have to worry about the cost. Now that we are chasing the replaceable nightmare all to please the Gods of Climate, and electricity is getting more expensive, people are now considering things like insulating their homes.
    I'm old enough to remember the times before the Gods of Climate became angry at the western nations, so now we must make sacrifices to appease them.

  • rlf on 22/08/2022 - 13:00

    Umm because you either pick one. Heat or cold. Australian homes are built to dissipate heat for their harsh summers.

    • Brianqpr on 22/08/2022 - 13:38
      +2

      Doesn't good insulation keep out both cold and heat though?

      • rlf on 22/08/2022 - 15:00
        +2

        I don't think you can efficiently do both. Things like turbines in the roof are used to remove heat, you don't want to trap heat inside during summer.

        • [Deactivated] on 22/08/2022 - 15:10

          A real scientist here!

          Yes, this is so important. I have insulation and in the summer you must keep the windows open as the roof and the insulation above radiates heat back into the house. This means you need to turn on the AC at night overtime to cool down that mass.

          What matters is the thermal capacity!

          Insulation does help smooth out the temperatures, but in general there are little to no energy savings when it comes down to the gist of things. Unless your house is built specifically to allow it to be passively cooled, i.e. Windows that allow air to flow from one side of the building to another during summer at night, good luck… What is more problematic is that most people keep them closed and use AC anyway because it is not safe to keep windows open at night due to thieves.

          • Windows7forever on 23/08/2022 - 12:23

            @[Deactivated]: This is why I installed grilles over all my windows. Can sleep in summer at night and keep windows open for airflow.

          • cakejellyfish on 24/08/2022 - 13:07

            @[Deactivated]:

            I have insulation and in the summer you must keep the windows open as the roof and the insulation above radiates heat back into the house.

            I'm not sure there is much thermal mass in your roof/ceiling insulation that is re-radiating heat back in your house. I think there might be something else in your house that's keeping the temperatures up.

            (I'm not a scientist.)

      • greatlamp on 22/08/2022 - 16:01

        Yes.

        You still run a heater or air conditioner, once the home reaches the required temp, it stays there longer, hence significant energy savings.

        Same as a Thermos flask can be used to keep cold liquid cold, and hot liquid hot

    • Odin on 24/08/2022 - 09:47
      +2

      Well that's not true.

      Insulation means the temperature stays relatively constant. Hot or cold outside doesn't matter. That's the point of insulation.

      You're probably thinking about heat sinks like brick and concrete which hold heat and radiate it back. Those are not insulation

    • drillvoice on 24/08/2022 - 11:04

      Insulation stops heat going out through the ceiling in winter, and stops heat coming in through the ceiling in Summer.

  • Cluster on 22/08/2022 - 13:14

    Sounds like the OP has only stayed in cheaply built old housing. Modern houses are much better. Mine has insulation in the ceiling and walls. I rarely use heating in winter. Double glazing is too expensive, so I use blockout curtains to keep summer heat out. No draughts or leaks.

    The comment about Japanese housing being so much better is curious. Has the OP ever traveled across Japan? Many houses are built to be disposable and are rather thin and very cold in winter. Indoor unflued kerosene heaters are still popular. It's still quite rare to see a house or hotel with basics such as flyscreen on the windows. In summer it becomes a fine choice between hot and uncomfortable sleep and being eaten alive by mosquitoes.

  • LFO on 22/08/2022 - 13:28

    Like many other countries or regions NOT having extreme temperatures, insulation is poor or non existing.

    But even in Australia I'm sure new homes in southern Tasmania will have far more insulation than those built in Brisbane or Darwin.

    It all relates to cost and sophistication (lack of) to accept uncomfortable dwellings with freezing cold or boiling hot rooms.

    Money/cost and personal values/expectations rules.

  • Brianqpr on 22/08/2022 - 13:37

    Definitely true. Being from the UK I've often heard the how do you stand the cold there type comments. Yet my parent's house in London is far warmer than houses here in winter. Proper insulation, older houses more solidly built, central heating, double glazing etc.

    I've always put it down to this being a warm country and therefore builders just don't really bother with it.

    • rlf on 22/08/2022 - 15:01

      But then you lot complain when the temperature reaches 30C. My house is 22C indoors when it's 40C outside in summer, no cooling on.

      It's also 17C inside when it's only 14C outside. Like I said, you need to pick one extreme. Aus houses lose heat, European ones retain heat.

  • 2esc on 22/08/2022 - 14:03
    +3

    We are over regulated in many parts of our lives but with housing we seem to be 20 years behind other countries. My house lacks insulation in places and as I've renovated I've installed insulation but not just to regulations. Install the best you can afford. Off the plan houses in Australia don't try very hard to exceed the star system requirements

    Look at the colour choice people make with roofing the trend in my area at the moment is monument in colour which from a energy standpoint is the worst choice you could choose in colourbond. The colour you choose has no regulatory bearing on the star rating of a house but I did read that if it did it could be worth half a star in the energy rating of a house.

    As far as i know in Victoria we are also still not required to pressure test (drafts) a house before its handed over to the owners. There are a few people offering that service now though.

    Many European countries require this and I think parts of Canada and some northern states of the US.

    • [Deactivated] on 22/08/2022 - 15:12

      Yeah, black roof tiles are the current trend. Ugh!

  • Daz91 on 22/08/2022 - 15:43
    -3

    I think people are getting softer. I live in a new apartment in Melbourne and haven’t used my heater in years. If I get cold I put a warmer jumper or jacket on and have a thick down duvet for my bed

    • [Deactivated] on 22/08/2022 - 23:19

      that is part of the problem, but the problem is that when it starts getting hot, there are only so many layers you can take off. i hate the heat (great luck being born in Aus..) and every summer, i sleep naked, wear the loosest and lightest clothing possible, i still get far too hot. good insulation helps against the heat, not just the cold.

  • Myone888 on 22/08/2022 - 17:27

    Ur absolutely right. Insulation is not practiced in Australia. Govt shud make in mandatory to go green. Roof and walls are not insulated. No double insulated glass. House is also hot in summer. Looks like nobody in govt has thought about this for along time! Then there are shortage of gas/electricity nowadays.

  • foolsgold on 22/08/2022 - 17:37
    +1

    its quite simply due to almost no efficiency/energy standards at all up until maybe the last 25 years, and when standards have been introduced were very very low. but have been progressively improving.
    I'd say the future is looking better, we are quite fortunate that we have cheaper energy, and less extreme cold weather than a lot of other countries that lets us enjoy buildings that you'd normally not get away with overseas.

    Overseas, colder climates also introduce a myriad of other issues with buildings that we don't have to deal with here, that leads to high quality construction being required.

    Let's look at what people often compare us to, Glazing in Germany/Switzerland and it's surrounding neighbours.
    They experience long periods of cold weather and snow.

    As a designer, you'd avoid large windows, doesn't matter if they're single or triple glazed, it wont stop heat loss, smaller windows leads to less glazed areas, leading to a more efficient house.
    Triple glazing has a quicker pay back period over there because heating is one of the most expensive factors when operating a house there.
    Triple glazing also is restrictive in size, it is heavier, it requires different hinging/operating mechanisms which also leads to less glazed areas and more efficient buildings
    Speaking of mechanisms, we don't have to worry regularly about snow/moisture sitting on a window for a month and leading to immature corrosion of the window and it's hardware, hence over there, you'd find a lot of the mechanisms to be stainless steel, or frames to be made from uPVC.

    I could go on, we don't have to worry about frost affecting internal piping in most part of the country, however overseas you find re-circulation systems, lagging in residential houses and more, all this is better construction, but avoided here because it's not mandated. When it's the standard it leads to it becoming cheaper, similar to how most new construction here is now double glazed.

    So I guess what I'm saying is, they wouldn't be any better over there if they didn't have the climate, energy costs, or some other requirement (security, wind, heritage) etc that has required them to improve things.

    On a positive note it does mean though, is that we can have more flexible designs in Australia, and it should be easier to build more efficiently here, (a little will go further here), as long as energy efficiency standards continue to get tougher here the future is looking more positive.

  • dufflover on 22/08/2022 - 23:50
    +1

    What do you expect in a society obsessed with flipping houses than building good quality homes ..

  • Felixrising on 23/08/2022 - 06:29
    +1

    In Australia the building codes are focused on basic safely and are more of a minimum baseline, most developers and builders will therefore build to that as the actual standard and be happy that they just met the standard. You really need to instruct the designer/builder to build to a higher standard and pay for it, and then actually do checks and confirm they actually do build to that standard (pretty common for insulation to be below spec to make extra $$ for the installer or builder, being an unregulated trade)

    But you are right, Australian buildings are basically cardboard boxes or a tent, made to look a certain way but offering little comfort in the design and building process. The level of workmanship is extremely low compared to somewhere like Europe.

  • shaybisc on 23/08/2022 - 08:24

    I thought you needed a fairly good standard of thermal design to get a Basix certificate. Not so?

    https://www.basix.nsw.gov.au/iframe/basix-help

  • Duckie2hh on 23/08/2022 - 09:23

    Government regulations, leaving minimum standard where it was in the 90s.

  • pogichinoy on 23/08/2022 - 09:36
    +1

    Love my double brick, and double glazed apartment.

    Quiet and well insulated.

  • cnrmlj on 23/08/2022 - 11:02

    My limited experience with builders is they go for minimum viable product that complies with the laws and that is all and then most people will accept this in their build because they don't see the benefit of upgrades. We did an extension a few years ago and upgraded a couple of items including some additional insulation. We also have thick windows at the front but this was due to bush fire zone rather than insulation reasons. We also have roller shutters on the eastern side of the house which are great in summer to keep heat out.

    • shaybisc on 23/08/2022 - 11:43

      What's on the western side?

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