Why Do All Properties in Australia Have Terrible Insulation?

alex123711 on 21/08/2022 - 09:39

Nearly every place I have stayed in (houses and apartments) have terrible insulation and energy efficiency e.g windows leaking air, draughts, no heat retention etc and you need heaters even in mild temperatures.

Compared to Europe/ Japan and other places around the world that seem to be better built for weather. I even read an article that Sydney/ Melbourne homes/ apartments use more energy for heating than London despite being much milder.

Why is this, is it developers cutting corners, building as cheaply as possible? Landlords having no incentive to spend money on insulation/ energy efficiency?

What are the best ways you have found that help? Have tried the window strips etc.

Home & Garden

Comments

  • Porker on 21/08/2022 - 09:43
    +4

    I think you'll find landlord houses have the same issues too.

    Are you suggesting that all places you've stayed at have issues? Are they old or new? Many things influence the efficiency of a house.

    In my own house that I own, not rent, I tend to dress to match the weather.

    • alex123711 on 21/08/2022 - 10:07
      +7

      The best apartment I stayed at was an old (1960's or 1970's) double brick place, which was quite good, the only issue was the thin windows.

      • Kangal on 22/08/2022 - 02:44
        +22

        It's a cost cutting thing.
        And there hasn't been any major trends to go the route of efficiency/insulation. Since we have a small population and we're quite isolated, it takes more money to ship all the stuff here.

        But if you're a home owner, it definitely is worth it. Insulation inside walls, roof, better doors, double-glazed windows, and doing an airway map, moisture circulation, and heatmap.

        Over time, it'll save you thousands AND keep you comfortable. Good insulation keeps your house cool in our stupidly hot summer days AND it also keeps the house warm during our chilly winter nights, two birds one stone. And if you happen to rent the place out, let all applicants know and bump up the price slightly. I know of a few properties where they had an expensive solar system, and when the owners moved out to let it, they didn't want to fiddle with the complicated electricity bills. They just let the renters enjoy it, and bumped up the rental price. Same concept.

        • CalmLemons on 23/08/2022 - 16:39
          +1

          ^ This guy above.

          It's simply a VERY SMALL cost cut in terms of roofing insulation, even wall sisalation .

          We don't have extremes of weather like europe winters so energy efficiency is a thing, but we've never need to go to the extreme.

          Literally 300 days a year you can just leave your windows and doors open and the weather would be tolerable.

          I normally redo the ceiling insulation and during builds ensure there's good stuff going into the walls because once that is in there is no way you can get it out again without much grief.

          • caitsith01 on 24/08/2022 - 14:53

            @CalmLemons:

            We don't have extremes of weather like europe winters

            So we're just going to ignore Australian summer then?

            Fact is our houses should be properly insulated to cope with heat as well as cold. In the olden days they were often built of stone in parts of Australia and those places are actually naturally really well insulated. Double brick for a while after that. But anything from the 60s onwards tends to be thinner and cheaper in terms of materials purely for false financial reasons.

        • spaceflight on 23/08/2022 - 17:38
          +3

          It's a cost cutting thing.
          And there hasn't been any major trends to go the route of efficiency/insulation

          Electricity and gas used to be cheap so it wasn't worth the cost or effort of insulation when you could just pump energy in to warm and cool the house.

          A electricity and gas prices increase it starts to make economic sense to use insulation, double glazed windows and so on. However it doesn't help old houses that were built like tents.

      • JimB on 22/08/2022 - 10:17
        +2

        Double Brick vs Brick Veneer and insulation batts, I'll take the Brick Veneer and insulation batts.

        The thermal mass of DB works against you when you a run of hot days or cold days, it keeps the temp stable. In the middle of Summer, the double brick keeps on pumping out the heat, conversely, in the middle of winter, it remains cold.

        Reverse double brick with lightweight cladding (and insulation) on the outside is superior to both.

        You're very incorrect that all Australian homes have terrible insulation. Not this homeowner who built my home from scratch.

        • grr1701 on 23/08/2022 - 17:38

          Mine’s good as gold, too.

          • JimB on 24/08/2022 - 09:19

            @grr1701: It really depends on what the homeowner wants and is prepared to do/spend.

            I'm certain the numerous Passivhauses in Australia doesn't have terrible insulation.

            Maybe the title 'Why Do Most Properties in Australia Have Terrible Insulation?' is more accurate.

      • misu p on 22/08/2022 - 13:41
        +1

        Apartments cannot change their windows that easily, as an apartment owner you have to convince Strata to do it, and they usually do it for the entire building to keep the look of the place consistent. Coming from a country where everybody did their own thing and changed their windows with different types / colours etc… I can agree with keeping the look of the place. But that means additional expenses for everybody in the building and they may not agree with that.

        I live in a townhouse and I would love to be able to change my windows with double glazing ones, I cannot… at the same time I am not paying millions for a house, I am happy to just run the aircon.

    • MrTweek on 22/08/2022 - 17:14
      +2

      In my own house that I own, not rent, I tend to dress to match the weather.

      Yeah, that's the problem. Growing up in Europe, I'm used to wear t-shirt inside all year round. Jumpers and jackets are for going outside.

    • HeWhoKnows on 22/08/2022 - 19:20
      +1

      OP should build their own home but dont build to a budget if you want the best of everything

  • shaybisc on 21/08/2022 - 09:55
    +11

    We have to cut costs on frippery like good insulation and energy efficiency so we can afford to build McMansions.Japanese and European houses are tiny in comparison to ours.

    • Daemos on 21/08/2022 - 22:36
      +17

      Go to Canada, houses there have good insulation, double glazed windows, typically have central air (whole house ducted gas heating and electric air conditioning) they are far larger than Australian houses yet cost less per square metre.

      • shaybisc on 22/08/2022 - 09:11
        +9

        I am dubious about your claims on size and cost in Canada. Got any links to support them?

        "Average cost of building a house in Canada

        On average, to build a 2,500 square foot detached house in Canada, you will spend between $720,000 and $890,000."

        March 19, 2021

        https://crownconstructions.ca/how-much-does-it-really-cost-t…

        That's $806,000 to one million AU$.

        • koalabargains on 23/08/2022 - 09:48
          +2

          Sounds like you’ve never traveled?

          All western houses are larger than Australian. I’d say Japanese as well.

          What are you using for evidence? I know btw. You’re relying on the articles printed every year which celebrate australia having the largest houses in the world. Where do they get the evidence for that?

          They rely on deeply flawed data.

          https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2020/11/myth-busted-austral…

          See australia counts things that are not considered habitable spaces, which the rest of the world exclude.

          Take a 200sqm townhouse. Something metricon might build. Well in the US that 200sqm shitbox would have a basement and attic and an attached garage (which are NOT counted in the size.) bc it’s not habitable. In australia that 200sqm house would include the 50sqm attached garage in the count.

          So in reality, the American house could be finished by converting the basement and attic and get up 300 or 350 Sqm but the Australian house is really only 150sqm and there ain’t nothing you can do to enlarge it.But on paper, the Australian house is the same 200sqm as the American house.

          That article doesn’t cover it but there’s also a massive scam in how apartments are recorded. Australia takes the total floor size and divides it by the number of units on that floor. Lol, that’s how the abs says the AVERAGE melbourne apartment is over 100sqm which hahahah obviously is not true at all.

          Be brave little koala. Look at other places. You’ll see our houses are worse than developing world. Be brave.

          Also, lol, have a look at external wall. External wall in Australia is 90mm. In other places its double, triple, or even larger.This lets you fit a lot more insulation in, cheaper stuff too, you an double up. Australian houses are shacks.

          • Hahuh on 23/08/2022 - 13:49
            +2

            @koalabargains: Honestly. Who would believe that Australia's average houses are big compared to other western nations?

            I know from watching tlc that the Americans sure like to comment on how small our "big" houses are. Unless we're comparing it to something like Japan, then Australia's house sizes are comparatively small for how much you pay.

          • bulletbill88 on 24/08/2022 - 20:03

            @koalabargains: “All Western Houses are larger than Australian.”

            You realise “the West” includes UK and Western Europe? Houses their are usually shoeboxes compared to most Australian homes. Your statement isn’t even remotely true.

            Perhaps you meant USA and Canada?

            Claiming Japanese houses are larger than Australian seems very bold. That’s not my experience of travelling in Japan, even outside of the major cities.

            • koalabargains on 24/08/2022 - 21:39

              @bulletbill88: Yes. Most Australian houses are tiny. The ABS data on size only started in 1992. The majority of Australian houses were built before 1992 and they were tiny. There are hundreds of thousand of houses which are 120sqm and less. And even that 120sqm probably would have an addition for an enclosed outhouse which has a ceiling thats less high than the rest.

              My experience of Japanese houses were that they are larger than typical older inner suburban Australian houses. If you want to pick a 250sqm shitbox in a new development, well bully for you. But if you pick a house in inner Melbourne, yeah, you can find a Japanese house larger than 120sqm.

              Lol @ USA and Canada. You know that most countries build two storey houses at a minimum right? I have not traveled to a country with smaller houses than Australia. Especially when you consider Australian old builds dont have basements but do typically have large attics which could be converted, and Australian new builds do not have basements OR attics bc they're 450 high trusses. Honestly, I'm not trying to be facetious, but even in the third world Ive seen typically larger houses.

              Most Australian houses are single storey bungalows with pitched roofs and less than 120sqm without an attic or basement. That is an exceptionally low bar to beat. Other people build multiple storeys, or with attics and basements, and use flat roofs. These things allow expansion. So even though a house in Jamaica might have started out just as small, typically over a family living it, they will add another floor on that flat roof, or expand the basement.

              The only places Ive seen houses smaller than ours are the hardcore third world. Like the Mexican countryside or actual favelas. Even in the poorest sections of Europe Ive visited, like Romania, the houses seemed larger on average.

              • bulletbill88 on 25/08/2022 - 08:05

                @koalabargains: Yeah ok. An inner city Melbourne house is not the Australian average.

                The UK average house size is 88m2 source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14916580.amp

                So even by your own anecdotal claim that the Australian average = inner Melbourne = 120m2 your claim is wrong. Debate over.

                • koalabargains on 25/08/2022 - 13:30

                  @bulletbill88: Oh man, this is why it’s just not even productive to talk to Australians about this stuff.

                  That’s an article saying the average NEW build is 88sqm.

                  Why can’t Australians ever think. Debate over, man, our education system is so bad.

                  Listen koala, the housing stock of a nation is not the houses built in 2011. It’s the sum total of all surviving houses. The Uk has been inhabited with built structures for thousands of years. There’s 60m Brits. The Brit’s have demolished more large houses than were ever built in australia or Ever will be built in australia.

                  You are not capable, intellectually, of having a debate comparing house sizes between australia and the UK. Because you desperately ignorant and incapable of basic logical reasoning.

                  But if it makes you feel better to believe that Australia has larger houses than the UK, hahaha, go ahead and believe that man. It’s a pathetic thing to need to believe, but go ahead and believe it.

                  Yes australia has the biggest houses in the world. Does that make you feel better? Jesus Christ.

                  • bulletbill88 on 25/08/2022 - 20:56

                    @koalabargains: From my link:

                    “And houses are getting smaller. The average UK home - including older and new-build properties is 85 sq m and has 5.2 rooms - with an average area of 16.3 sq m per room.
                    In comparison the average new home in the UK is 76 sq ms and has 4.8 rooms with an average area of 15.8 sq m per room”

                    So the UK average including older homes is 85sqm.

                    Go find any evidence that the UK average house size is bigger than Australian. All you have produced is anecdotes.

                    FYI the pub isn’t the centre of UK life because they get lonely in their giant houses.

                    And I haven’t said Australian houses are the largest in the world because I don’t double down on my hyperbole when I get called out on it like you.

                    • koalabargains on 26/08/2022 - 01:01

                      @bulletbill88: Friend,

                      I;m sorry that Ive treated you like someone who can reason and make basic connections. I will try to show you that the sky is blue and water is wet, in the terms you can understand.

                      Here is report form the UK government about the housing stock of the country.

                      https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/…

                      Do you remember when I mentioned that housing stock in the UK is old? Well there are 22.7 million dwellings in England, 20% of which
                      were built prior to 1919. That's just England.

                      Turn to page 4. There's a chart. Which shows the size of dwellings over time.

                      You see, because you keep braying that the average house is larger. What is the average house? Because the UK has one bedroom houses. Because they were building them back when houses were invented. As you can see in the chart, 1 bedroom houses have not changed in size since 1919 and are roughly 50sqm. You will also see that 3 bedroom houses have been about 100sqm since 1919, and 4 bedroom houses have been 150sqm since 1919.

                      When you are trying to compare the housing stock of two nations, you have to actually understand logical reasoning and both countries. That entire report is actually about how the UK media has been saying houses are small and it tries to explain that they're really not that small.

                      "Space in homes is also an important issue in media and public debate. Newspapers frequently feature articles claiming that new housing in the UK is
                      the “smallest in Europe”2, is getting smaller3, and is too small for families. The Royal Institute of British Architects has been particularly interested in this issue."

                      See the point of knowledge is to understand things better and to have intelligent discussion which enhances your knowledge and life. Its not to cherry pick articles that you dont understand the context of to make idiotic points to defend 'straya. But lets move on.

                      I could continue on, but I doubt you could understand, so Ive thought of simpler way to try and make you understand.

                      Heres a link Ive put elsewhere. Its about the size of Austalian houses.

                      https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2020/11/myth-busted-austral…

                      What you should concentrate on is how Australia defines floor space. The ABS measures floor area for houses as:

                      …the quantity of useable space within the dwelling (including attachments) at its completion. This figure is measured in meters squared (m²) as reported by the respondent at the final stage of construction. The boundary of the recorded floor area of a dwelling is delineated by the external perimeter of the dwelling’s exterior walls.

                      Part of the point of that article is Australia includes stuff like that to inflate its building size and other countries, like America, do not. Because the point of data collection in those countries is help their nation, usually you do that with truth. The point of it here is to help sad people think the country's houses are bigger than they are.

                      Anyway, the UK does not include garages in floor space.

                      "This also represents the area within the footprint of the dwelling, minus the three following areas;
                      The area under the external walls
                      The area of integral balconies
                      The area of integral garages.

                      https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/…

                      So, we know that Australia inflates its house size, we know that the UK has a number of very old, very small houses. And we know that the UK's 3 and 4 bedroom houses have been much larger than typical houses in Australia for close to a century.

                      I used anecdotes because every house I have ever seen or visited in the UK has been larger than nearly every house Ive ever been to in Australia.

                      You are relying on a media article quoting a bad statistic to put against a demonstrably bad Australia statistic to try and make a point about a country that you have never been to.

                      I don't know why, Ive guessed, but at the end of the day, I dont care what you believe. I have taken the time to try and show you what is patently obvious to anyone who has ever visited both countries.

                      I doubt that you'll be able to understand this, because if you had that capacity to learn, then you wouldnt be the kind of person to have an argument like this.

                      The ABS includes attached garage space.

                      • bulletbill88 on 26/08/2022 - 15:38

                        @koalabargains: That’s a lot of words to admit you are wrong. You’ve changed the metric because you can’t back up your absurd claim. Cheers

          • shaybisc on 25/08/2022 - 10:10

            @koalabargains: What's my travels got to do with it. They are the figures of a Canadian builder not mine. Presumably he knows something about the cost of building in Canada.

        • Daemos on 23/08/2022 - 14:10
          +2

          I'm Canadian. Have friends who have purchased property in both Canada and Australia. Even when comparing Sydney/Melbourne to Toronto/Vancouver…the cost to purchase might not be too different, but what you get for the cost is much more space, better build quality, insulation etc.

          Once you go to other major cities like Edmonton, Ottawa prices are even more in favour in Canada.

        • RR88 on 24/08/2022 - 09:24
          -1

          what is the average wage of a construction worker in canada v aus?

    • MrTweek on 22/08/2022 - 17:12

      You'd save a lot more on energy costs long term.

    • askbargain on 21/08/2022 - 10:10
      +14

      Location Adelaide

      lol

      • [Deactivated] on 21/08/2022 - 12:24
        +2

        I live in Adelaide and still feel the difference between my home (which I had maximum insulation installed) and mum's.
        Her's was built around 2009 and it feels like sleeping in a unzipped swag.

    • Jugganautx on 21/08/2022 - 11:29
      +4

      This has nothing to do with house insulation.

    • bobbified on 21/08/2022 - 16:00
      +8

      I have to laugh when I see Australians dressed up in insulated jackets in weather that'd have most of the people in most other rich countries remarking to each other what a lovely day it is.

      Funny, because if you bring people from those "other rich countries" you mention to Australia on a warm summer day (when Aussies are remarking to each other what a lovely day it is), many of them will probably die of heatstroke.

    • smartazz104 on 21/08/2022 - 19:45
      +1

      What idiot would sit comfortably in a room that's 18 degrees?

      • Hahuh on 23/08/2022 - 13:51

        Had to turn off the heating once it reached 18. Was too hot.

    • lyl-Lychee on 21/08/2022 - 21:39
      +4

      More people die per capita of cold induced illness in Australia than Sweden.
      https://www.healthyhomes.org.au/news/heh1pp76ot3hpljgf9x3mp7…

    • bigbadboogieman on 23/08/2022 - 14:18

      Funny last I checked Sydney was touching 0 - 1° in peak winter. Sure about shirtsleeves weather everywhere mate?

  • Craze on 21/08/2022 - 10:15
    +35

    Glad I'm not the only one who thinks the same. I remember asking a colleague who grew up here and the response was "to cater for the different seasons", but definitely doesn't make sense where other countries as OP mentioned (Europe, Japan) have better built buildings to cater for the same.

    A friend who came from Europe struggled initially with the poor insulated homes and was always complaining it's so cold indoors.

    • caitsith01 on 24/08/2022 - 14:56
      +1

      To cater for different seasons by being too hot in summer and too cold in winter!

    • alex123711 on 21/08/2022 - 10:36
      +10

      The best one I lived in was an old 50+ years double brick place!

    • 0FoxGiven on 21/08/2022 - 11:26
      +18

      Hardly. Most new houses have barely decent insulation. Turn on the heater or AC for an hour or more and then turn it off and you will find the temperature has gone back to what it was previously in 15-30 min (or less!) unless it is a closed room and doors are properly draught proofed. A new home would have decent insulation if the in-wall and roof insulation is doubled compared to what the minimum standard states.

      My neighbor's similar sized house that was built the same time as mine runs a gas (cooking and heating only) bill of $750ish per quarter during the winter months while my total household energy bill (electricity only as I have no gas) is about $340ish for a quarter; we both have solar. Obviously there are many factors to consider but the difference is super obvious.

      • boomramada on 21/08/2022 - 12:08

        Last two houses I lived were fairly new builds, one was about 4 years and current one is only a year. I live in CBR while outside is 0c , inside get around 17c even without the heater on. I usually put the heater on just before I arrive home for few hrs, it keep under 20c while freezing outside.

        When I was in Adelaide in 20+ year old house, my power bill was high in winter.

    • Numpty21 on 21/08/2022 - 11:47
      +6

      ‘Most new houses got good insulation’

      That is not correct
      The BCA still doesn’t require double brick house to have wall insulation

      • Iwishihadaids on 21/08/2022 - 20:01

        Doesn't the cavity act as an insulator?

        • pangwen on 21/08/2022 - 21:14
          +4

          It has a very very small contribution to insulation - have a look at pages 42-43 of this: http://icanz.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Insulation-Ha…

          In particular, see how the R-value contribution of the air gap in an uninsulated double brick wall is about 0.17. When people insulate their walls properly, they usually use batts that are R2.0/2.5/2.7, which provide more than 10x the insulating effect of an empty cavity.

    • paddyo on 21/08/2022 - 13:50
      +5

      "Maybe the house you living in are old and build cheap? Most new houses got good insulation."
      I don't think so, houses here are extremely poorly insulated, for some bizarre reason it's never thought of when people go for new builds. They just don't understand how it works and how positive it can be for your home and future bills. Double glazing doesn't 'fail' , it's just not done here as a 'normal' fit so really expensive, it works as all normal glass.

    • smartazz104 on 21/08/2022 - 19:45
      +4

      Most new houses got good insulation

      Hey guys we got ourselves a comedian over here…

      • boomramada on 22/08/2022 - 08:20

        It's not my fault when your new house is a weatherboard house 😉

        All CBR houses are rated under climate 24, mines is build for eer6, whatever that is.

    • juki on 21/08/2022 - 21:12
      +2

      compared to europe or japan our new high energy star rating houses still look like a cardboard box (insulation wise).
      can still buy the double glazing, insulation, door strips DLC, afterwards.

      Mums this side of the world probably say just put a jumper on way more times than in Japan or Europe

    • Zondor on 22/08/2022 - 10:06
      +1

      Imagine thinking that new houses aren't being crapped out as cheap as possible for the lowest cost imaginable.

      Half of em are gona be falling apart in 2 decades.

  • MS Paint on 21/08/2022 - 10:22
    +2

    How can I afford my $5k TV if I install insulation?

    Google "failed punk batts scheme".

    Our government can't even do that properly.

    • pangwen on 21/08/2022 - 10:35
      +10

      I assume you mean "pink batts". I think that's a bit of an unfortunate misnomer - the pink batts weren't the problem IIRC, it was other types of insulation (foil) which led to electrocutions. I think that's given insulation batts a bit of an undeserved bad name - AFAIK there were no issues with the insulation of batts during the scheme.

      In any case, the issue with the foil insulation was due to poor training leading to unsafe work practices. Yes, the government should wear some blame for rushing the rollout, but that shouldn't have led to a total abandonment of the scheme.

      • MS Paint on 21/08/2022 - 10:49
        +22

        I assume you mean "pink batts"

        No. I was referring to the NZ scheme.

    • smartazz104 on 21/08/2022 - 19:46
      +10

      Our government can't even do that properly

      The problem was allowing anyone who called themselves a "tradie" to do the work…

      • koalabargains on 23/08/2022 - 09:50
        +2

        Yes. Crazy you have to get this deep in the thread to name the unnamable.

        It’s not the government, not the developers, it’s the (profanity) TRADIES.

        It’s ALWAYS been the tradies.

    • Zondor on 22/08/2022 - 10:09
      +2

      Gov just greenlit the scheme.

      The problem was boss's not adequately training their employee's to do the work safely.
      Ideally though, it should have been raised as a risk but it wasn't. K-Rudd paid the price for this ultimately.

      • koalabargains on 23/08/2022 - 09:51
        +1

        One of the idiots that died went into a roof cavity in WA on a 45 degree day.

        Yes it was Kevin Rudds fault though.

        How could he have known just how r*tasted the average tradie is.

        • mapax on 23/08/2022 - 10:32

          r*tasted

          What’s that mean?

    • MrTweek on 22/08/2022 - 17:13

      By saving $1000 on power bills per year => free brand new $5k TV every 5 years.

  • pangwen on 21/08/2022 - 10:31
    +51

    It's because our minimum building standards allow people to get away with not much insulation at all, and insulation is considered such an afterthought that it is not prioritised. I have had some experience with volume builders and while improved insulation is an 'upgrade', they often don't mention this to you at meetings, with a lot more time spent talking about paint, tiles and taps. Due to this, a lot of people wouldn't even know that they could ask for upgraded insulation.

    Even if a new home builder specifies good insulation, the installers may not do a good job, or other trades on site disturb the insulation and don't put it back the way it should have been. On some efficient building facebook pages, I have seen examples of:
    - Sparkies working in the roof space pulling away insulation to gain access to a certain part of the ceiling (I can't remember what for), but then just leaving a big gap in the roof insulation after they were done
    - The insulation crew putting the bags of insulation in the ceiling space and forgetting to come back to lay it out
    - Massive gaps in insulation (particularly in walls) due to poor workmanship

    EDIT: Another issue I see a lot of is people not adequately considering solar orientation in their house designs. You end up with massive windows facing south (leading to lots of heat loss without the corresponding solar gain benefit during daytime) or west (I think most people would know the issues with this), and minimal windows allowing northern light in. This ends up with a house that doesn't take advantage of the sun effectively. I know there are often site specific issues (views etc.), but too often I see people just place a 'standard design' from a volume builder on a site without further customisation to account for how their lot is oriented.

    • Bunnings298 on 21/08/2022 - 21:55
      +3

      Couldn’t agree more! I put this below on another post but the article I was reading backs up your point.

      https://yourbesthome.com.au/read/the-worst-home-they-can-bui…

    • saltypete on 22/08/2022 - 09:20
      +6

      Exactly!!!
      It’s just that builders don’t have to and tradies really have no idea. Even if you specify decent insulation and air tightness- chippies, brickies, roofers all leave ‘the odd little gap’ that adds up to a very big gap.

      Remember too that post the previous pandemic, authorities specified vents in houses to force a certain level of ventilation.

      None of it is impossible to fix, but to do it properly it’s currently a DIY-driven exercise.
      Probable business opportunity actually….

    • huggsymersh on 23/08/2022 - 17:43
      +1

      The orientation of houses is a biggie. So many houses laid out to face the street, for aesthetic reasons, but then paying the price in sub-optimal position in respect of the sun for decades/remainder of it's life. It's not just new volume builders though, it's ingrained in the fabric of our cities. I live in a 19th century terrace house and it's somewhat forgiveable that they built to meet cultural expectations of Victorian era townplanning and such. But they should know better these days.

  • mapax on 21/08/2022 - 10:40
    +36

    Australia is full of vapid people who would rather spend money on things that might make other people envious rather than insulation. This includes some of the builders who need to cut corners wherever possible so that their wives can buy a new overpriced luxury good to make her friend envious.

  • cashless on 21/08/2022 - 10:41
    +19

    In Northern Europe, one of the biggest energy savers is putting in double glazed windows. They are standard in all new builds & most people with older houses would retrofit extra layer of glazing. The savings on winter energy bills are huge.
    Here in Aus (I’m talking Southern & S Eastern locations) double glazing is only ever considered where there is a noise issue (traffic, airports etc). It is not even thought of as an energy saver. Works well in summer too to contain air conditioning cooled air.

    • pangwen on 21/08/2022 - 10:49
      +9

      I considered getting double glazing for a new house - some of the issues I faced were:

      1. Cost. This is partly due to the fact that they weren't on standard order, so the volume builder has less of a discount. This is similar to how you get a large bill for changing to a non-standard tile (even if the price difference between the two at National Tiles isn't that much). The other reason is because not many people get double glazed, manufacturers can set a more premium price level
      2. Effectiveness. I wanted to get a thermally broken frame for the double glazed windows, but many volume builders will just give you a blank look. So you pay a bunch for double glazing, and because it's not thermally broken you get less of a heat insulating benefit
      • [Deactivated] on 21/08/2022 - 11:26
        -6

        Double glazing is a double edged sword because of the costs. Over time it can fail and needs to be replaced. I have not been able to decide whether it is worth it.

        • [Deactivated] on 22/08/2022 - 14:19

          I'm not sure why my post got downvoted, but I'm guessing people haven't lived overseas (notably the UK). Double Glazing can fail… It may not be worthwhile as the energy savings may be minimal.

          Oh and don't forget to mention the air might be stale as a result too…

          • MasterBates on 22/08/2022 - 23:03

            @[Deactivated]: The UK has double glazing for sure and also has some shocking build quality to go with it…

            Over in the Nordic countries double glazing is standard, effective and doesn't just fail. My neighbour in Denmark used to work as a carpenter in the UK simply due to the fact that UK tradies aren't much better then Aussie tradies.

      • alex123711 on 21/08/2022 - 11:49

        How much are we talking for double glazing? Standard vs non standard?

        • pangwen on 21/08/2022 - 11:58

          It'll depend on many factors - your builder, your location and the size/nature of the window. But when I got it quoted, it was about $600-1000 per window to upgrade (new build).

          • alex123711 on 21/08/2022 - 12:29
            +5

            @pangwen: That doesn't sound that unreasonable when considering the total cost of a build tbh

            • pangwen on 21/08/2022 - 12:51
              +3

              @alex123711: Fair… we tried to get as many as possible done, but I can see that if you did this upgrade for every window and glass door the upgrade cost could become the biggest upgrade item on the build.

        • GreyMelb on 22/08/2022 - 09:21
          +5

          We got a couple of quotes about 4 years ago, and it was $40k to $56k. We passed on that.

          • [Deactivated] on 22/08/2022 - 14:28

            @GreyMelb: Yeah, that's a crazy price. What were your estimated energy savings?

            • GreyMelb on 23/08/2022 - 09:25

              @[Deactivated]: We didn't even look that far into it. Our house has more windows than walls so the savings would likely be substantial.

        • [Deactivated] on 22/08/2022 - 14:24
          -1

          So what was your decision? Personally, unless it is for noise insulation, you are probably better off just using more energy to heat up your house.

          By the way, do not trust anyone who states double glazing is a do once and ignore issue. It isn't! See my post above. In fact you can just google it. If it needs to be replaced every 10 years to be effective, you can quickly see it is not worth the money.

          https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=does+double+glazing+fail

      • [Deactivated] on 21/08/2022 - 12:21
        +1

        I actually asked for double glazing at our selections and found out it isn't something they offer.

      • ukulele on 22/08/2022 - 08:15

        New build custom home. But regular builder.

        I was pleasantly surprised that the majority of our windows were double glazed. I didn't ask for it, nor is it a "standard" thing they do. The builder just said it depended on the energy report.

    • simplystu on 21/08/2022 - 16:10
      +8

      Perth airport - new housing estate in close surrounding area (first house build started 7-9 years ago) … the local council actually mandated that all houses needed to have triple glazed windows.

      Really stops the noise … but also works as a brilliant insulator for the house.
      Reckon alot of heat/cold is through windows rather than through the roof.

    • saltypete on 22/08/2022 - 09:25
      +3

      Double-glazing windows in a house that leaks like a sieve is not at all cost effective unfortunately. I guess if you go better windows at build time you can possibly fix the leaks later.

      For parts of OZ there are replacement glass types that can be pretty effective too.

  • 0FoxGiven on 21/08/2022 - 11:13
    +46

    Australia has the most lax building standards I have seen compared to countries in the middle east, Europe and even some parts of Asia. Like others have mentioned here, builders focus more on showcasing things that people perceive as luxury and good looking, rather than making sure the bones of a house is good and solid.

    I had a really hard time getting my builder to agree to not have gas appliances, increase insulation, etc. Some builders I spoke to previously, flat out refused to do the job. And I still had to pay a premium (more than market price) to get these "upgrades" even though the builders obviously get them at subsidized prices. In Europe double glazed windows are the minimum standard for new builds in most places but here it's a luxury expense. It's mostly comes down to the cost of labour here I guess but I honestly dont think the tradies ought to be paid what they get for the quality of work they do (and also considering the amount of money they make on the side, tax free). A house in VIC usually takes 4-6 months to build but there is probably just 20 days of actually work happening on site.

    I am currently looking to get another place for myself and don't really want to consider building given the atrocious prices for new builds currently. But after inspecting several houses that cost up to 300k more than my house I have given up since they are all crap compared to my current place, they might look pretty but I know it will be several steps down in the level of comfort I enjoy at my current place.

    Australia really needs some strict building standards and improve upon the minimum home efficiency standards instead of propping up the already insanely inflated property market.

    • moar bargains on 21/08/2022 - 14:58
      +14

      Yep, all it takes is a cursory glance at the TV Reno shows to see that it's painfully obvious that form is given much more importance than function. Who cares about how you're supposed to clean that shower screen, or that your trend-setting floor will get dirty if you so much as look at it? They look stylish, and that's what counts!

      I think weak political leadership on this (being beholden to developers and the building industry in general) has not helped either by not mandating (and enforcing, which is also currently lacking) better building standards. I read an article recently that a study showed that double glazing in a European country ended up being cheaper after it was mandated in all new builds than single glazing was before.

    • dtc on 21/08/2022 - 17:04

      Like others have mentioned here, builders focus more on showcasing things that people perceive as luxury and good looking, rather than making sure the bones of a house is good and solid.

      To be fair to builders, they focus on selling things that people want and not selling things that people are unwilling to pay for.

      Blaming the people who sell crap is blaming the wrong people. They sell to their market; its easy to get a properly insulated new home but people do not want to pay. Ask them to pay $20k extra to save $1500 per year on electricity and they wont do it. And its probably $50k+ to do it all correctly (including orientation etc)

      • pangwen on 21/08/2022 - 18:33
        +1

        I think the problem is (from my experience and from a few of my friends who have built), it's not a matter of "ask(ing) them to pay" - the builders aren't even asking! All of the requests for additional insulation/double glazing etc. were client driven, at no point did the builder ask "oh, would you be interested in spending $x to upgrade your wall insulation?".

        • dtc on 21/08/2022 - 21:44

          Your friends are spending multiple $100,000s and have done no research?

          • pangwen on 21/08/2022 - 21:48

            @dtc: Oh they did do their research, but the ones I spoke to said they went to the meetings where the builder's reps were all "oh, and did you want to upgrade to this tile/that stone" for almost the entire meeting. Not once was insulation mentioned until my friends asked "so.. when do we talk about the insulation and how much that costs to upgrade?" (i.e. the insulation discussion was client/customer-initiated)

            In my personal case, I asked my builder's consultant what they could do with respect to wall insulation, and they had to take that question on notice. Now I realise that it's not possible to be an expert at everything, but it suggests that they don't mention insulation to customers because they're not familiar with what's available.

            • 0FoxGiven on 21/08/2022 - 23:48
              +5

              @pangwen: Pfft. In my case when I asked the sales consultants if it was possible to swap the gas HWS for a heat pump, most of them didn't know what I was even talking about (one of them even asked me where would the hot water be pumped from if I used a heat pump). Similarly some where confused why I wanted three phase power supply to a house, even after I mentioned I wanted an induction cooktop, ducted reverse cycle AC system for a large house and I planned to put large solar PV system.

              Sometimes the Sales ppl are so used to the age old script they have not learned what's even new (I know it's not really new) in the market other than some schmancy stone benchtops and stuff.

  • mskeggs on 21/08/2022 - 11:20
    +10

    The building standards historically were garbage, things are a bit better these days with basix.
    My old house had no insulation at all when we bought it, and our winter temps often drop below freezing.
    I spent a fair bit of effort fitting roof batts, sealing gaps and blocking draughts, but retrofitting wall insulation was absurdly expensive, so was double glazing.
    So I add a bit as I go, when there is a need for a new window to replace an old one with a rotten frame, or if we are replacing some weatherboards.
    So it is much better now, but still a long way from good.

    • saltypete on 22/08/2022 - 09:32
      +4

      Same here.
      Stick with it - every bit helps and eventually it all comes together.
      A huge fix for us was sealing the skirting boards when we redid the flooring. We just put self adhesive foam to the bottom when we re-fitted them. Made a huge difference to winter and even keeps house cooler in summer.

  • [Deactivated] on 21/08/2022 - 11:23
    -6

    Expect to pay $100k-$200k more for apartments that are properly insulated. I recently bought an apartment as a gift for a friend $800k and there is a major difference between pre-fab apartments and brick apartments.

    • MS Paint on 21/08/2022 - 11:30
      +26

      I recently bought an apartment as a gift for a friend $800k

      Do you need another friend? Asking for a friend.

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