Be Careful Pushing for Full-Time WFH. Don't Give Your Company an Excuse to Outsource Your Job

spychiatrist on 10/04/2022 - 11:41

A lot of people pushing for full-time WFH. Let's not kid ourselves by claiming we're more productive at home. especially if you have kids. Other distractions: telly, PS5/ XSX/ Switch, interactions with housemates/ pets (instead of interactions with co-workers in an office environment). And a lot of procrastinating - "I can do that later after dinner." "I'll just turn my laptop on and login while I go to the shops, cook, eat, nap and check OzBargain. They won't know the difference."

Don't give your boss an excuse to outsource your job interstate/ overseas or find another employee willing to work in an office environment. If you're boss/ supervisor/ superior is willing to rock up the office every day, what makes you think you're ok to WFH? Oh, you also want the same pay for WFH? What's that, you want a payrise?

Poll Options

  • 755
    WFH
  • 64
    WIO
Education & Work

Comments

    • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 11/04/2022 - 11:07
      +4

      Lets be honest, a vast majority of people just cannot perform for 7.5 hours a day.

      That's the reason I left the adult film industry.

  • TheMindsetTraveller on 11/04/2022 - 08:15

    I love people who refuse to go back to the office because they are scared of Covid yet they go out and socialise and pretend things are normal. Thanks FB, IG and more for evidencing this.

    • rektrading on 11/04/2022 - 08:27
      +10

      +90.00% of Australians are vaccinated.

      People aren't scared of Rona. They just don't want to waste 3h everyday travelling and $100s on fuel and tickets.

      • ThadtheChad on 11/04/2022 - 10:33
        +1

        +1

        A number of my colleagues have now taken up classes for hobbies etc. It's great to see folks utilising their time to spend it with family and their loved ones, exercise, take up hobbies and develop new skills.

        As a manager, while there are challenges, I definitely see the benefit of this long term as it aids in building a emotionally, mentally and physically healthy workforce.

      • TheMindsetTraveller on 11/04/2022 - 11:54

        @rektrading

        Yet my comment is not about the benefits of WFH.

        I am specifically pointing out that some people are saying "I can't go back to the office because I live/visit/care for older parents" and there is a higher risk of being on public transport, inside an office elevator, sitting in an open-plan office etc.

        Yet, I see them on their FB/IG pages going out and enjoying the world (when they are supposedly worried about risk to their older parents).

    • smartazz104 on 11/04/2022 - 09:34
      +2

      Sounds like boomer talk.

    • ripesashimi on 11/04/2022 - 10:44

      They will go back to work if everyone is given a house next to their workplace. You can consider subsidise that if you want it to happen.

  • Carmen Sandiego on 11/04/2022 - 08:25
    +4

    My work has promised everyone is not going to be required into the office full time, and they are sticking to that. And it works. My old work is forcing everyone to Mon-Wed, and Thur and Fri is optional, and they're hemorrhaging staff.

    Also, we have anti-vaxxers who are waiting until May sometime. No one has seen them in person since 2019/2020.

    WFH has afforded me time to see various medical professionals I couldn't have before, and once I mention that to managers, they're so helpful and happy to work around my schedule instead of me forcing something around work.

    As for newbies into the industry, I've been making it a point to have a chat with them all, when we're together in the office, and now, they can message me on Teams etc without feeling bad. Likewise with me and the various managers. I know the struggle since I started my position in Nov 2020.

  • [Deactivated] on 11/04/2022 - 08:27
    +5

    Let's not kid ourselves by claiming we're more productive at home.

    Definitely someone who is in HR or a position where you value bums in seats rather than outcomes. Speak for yourself buddy, not all of us are lazy asses at home.

    PS5/ XSX/ Switch, interactions with housemates/ pets (instead of interactions with co-workers in an office environment).

    A lot of offices have PS5's, pool, table tennis. Funny, it's not a "distraction" when it's an office perk right? ANd how are interactions with co-workers better than with house-mates/pets? Do you know how much shit people talk in an office?

    Don't give your boss an excuse to outsource your job interstate/ overseas

    Yeah you're definitely in real estate / HR or some role where YOU are directly affected by the WFH movement.

    Either get on the bus or get left at the busstop

    • Ravensbane on 13/04/2022 - 11:53

      Sounds like they need to be run over by the bus actually..

  • jhaley3180 on 11/04/2022 - 08:37
    +12

    This post seems to say more about the OP rather than WFH.

    • smartazz104 on 11/04/2022 - 09:35
      +3

      Sounds like a boomer with his cliche "distractions"; oh no, my employees are distracted by their Nintendos.

  • JDogg1329 on 11/04/2022 - 08:44
    +6

    Not interested in spending 10+ hours a week getting to/from work, not to mention all the time spent around work (Making lunches etc)

    These days I'm generally happy to do a bit of extra work after hours because of all the time I've gained back, whereas before, after being stuck in traffic for over an hour just to get home from work, no chance I'm doing any more work until I get back into the office the next day, I think it's a win/win for everyone.

    WFH is the future, butts in seats in a central location is an outdated model.

  • Boogerman on 11/04/2022 - 08:48
    -7

    Very good post!
    We now have 5 employees overseas & save 80% on our administrative & IT wage bill.
    We'll probably never hire locals again for anything that doesn't need to be in the office
    Be careful what you wish for

    • admira on 11/04/2022 - 09:19
      +2

      This is nothing that couldn't have happened before WFH became the norm - so if it takes a few workers complaining to WFH to make you realise their job can be given to anyone (as opposed to "done from anywhere") then - that's really something you should have been looking at a lot earlier.

      • Boogerman on 11/04/2022 - 09:23

        Yes, but it was the pandemic that pushed the mindset change. The change is now entrenched.
        The opening post is spot on - when distilled to its essential elements, WFH is outsourcing whether its Australia or the Phillipines.
        The point is, that people's jobs that can be outsourced are now more insecure - be careful buying a house in outer suburban or semi-regional areas (because you don't need to 'go to the office'). You might not have a job to service the ever increasing mortgage repayments with interest rate rises

        • admira on 11/04/2022 - 09:49
          +1

          WFH and outsourcing are pretty different in my mind. WFH is having employees who are in your company, engaged with the outcomes the company is striving for, who are working from home. You do the appraisals, pay rises, bonuses (if applicable) and can make them feel valued, and create a talent stream in your organisation for the high achievers. Outsourcing is engaging a different business to make a profit off you, with their employees are motivated and rewarded by the outsourcers aims and goals (to make a profit off you), not your outcomes and goals.

          I have worked on both sides of the fence, running a large team who performed outsourcing in the Philippines, and also on the client side of obtaining outsourcing services, it can work really well for all parties concerned - for the right roles. I have also run teams with people all over the world, some of whom WFH permanently or part of the week.

          Anyway thats my $0.02.

    • sheamas88 on 11/04/2022 - 13:56
      +1

      And once the offshore team have stuffed it all up you'll be paying an Australian consultant/employee so much money it will make your eyes water to come in and fix it all.

      Fortunately for me, it's companies like yours that make us Aussies in such high demand and commanding salaries or rates that make the bosses squeal

      • Boogerman on 11/04/2022 - 14:42

        Ha ha! These people get up before 5am to help out.
        As if a lazy Aussie would ever do that!!
        But they'll keep deluding themselves of their own self importance & competence!!

        • ThadtheChad on 12/04/2022 - 09:30

          I daresay it appears that it sounds like your preference would be to have bonded labour, what with your rhetoric on "lazy aussies", "helping out" etc.

          IF I'm getting up at 5am to "help out", Boogerman and his fly-by-night operation better pay me on-call/elevated hourly rates else he can climb a cactus. People work for money, so if you have expectations of that nature, incentivise it like any normal organisation.

          I think Australia has amazing worker protections for the most part that prevents exploitation by employers etc. This has a net benefit to all. If the outsourcing model is working for you guys, well more power to you!

          • Boogerman on 12/04/2022 - 11:28

            @ThadtheChad: A bit like the racist rhetoric of shemas88 stating that: "once the offshore team have stuffed it all up", implying that only Australians are capable

        • Donaldhump on 12/04/2022 - 09:50
          +1

          when the call up fee is a minimum of 2 hours and anything before 9am is double time, ill answer the phone at 5am.

          do i feel bad charging that, no way, if i rang a plumber at the same time they charge that way too.

          outsourcing results in rubbish work, it always costs more long term

          • Boogerman on 12/04/2022 - 11:30

            @Donaldhump: Only lazy 'hands off' managers' actions result in "outsourcing results in rubbish work"

  • miicah on 11/04/2022 - 08:57
    +7

    Okay Mr. Manager

    Stop sooking your job is now pointless

  • Bid Sniper on 11/04/2022 - 09:25
    +4

    Outsourcing existed long before WFH

    PS Trump lost LOL, find another golden calf comrade.

  • misu p on 11/04/2022 - 09:38
    +4

    I call bullshit on the productivity argument with WFH.

    Also good luck with outsourcing, people cost half as much and do a lot less work. This is my 3rd time working with a team that is outside Australia, they require a lot of hand-holding, being incredibly specific with every aspect of the work you give them. They get stuck on something, there is nobody online to answer their question and they just sit there…

    We eventually replaced 4 people outside Australia with 2 in Australia and we got a lot more done.

    Outsourcing is cheap and you get what you pay for.

    Also if my boss wants to rock up every day to the office …. just do it. If they make me do it I can find another job before the week is over.

  • tyarrhea on 11/04/2022 - 09:53
    +1

    From my experience, outsourcing to overseas is unlikely to happen at mid-senior level roles. Working in financial services, outsourcing to Indian back offices was huge 10 years ago but in the past few years, executives have started to realise that productivity went backwards, error rates increased and resolution times exploded because outsourced staff can only work to a script. For anything outside that, it was better to be onshore with many companies now bringing back their operations as original work contracts are starting to expire.

  • serpserpserp on 11/04/2022 - 10:03

    Let's not kid ourselves by claiming we're more productive at home. especially if you have kids.

    Doesn't sound like OP has kids. Most households are dual working parents and have kids outsourced elsewhere. So having kids while working from home doesn't make you less productive.
    Actually you are likely to be more productive when you have to take a day off to look after a kid. In the old days you'd take the whole day off, now you can fit in meetings and a bit of work around caring for your child. Not to mention you get to miss the commute times.

    Someone else mentioned WFH with babies. Probably much preferable to have that environment with a newborn. I use to go to work every single day with a newborn at home and the act of getting our of bed and righting yourself well enough to catch PT to work and then sit there and be barely productive was bone shattering. At least at home you have more hours possible for sleep and you can take a desperate 30/60 kip if you need it.

  • ThadtheChad on 11/04/2022 - 10:24
    +7

    This is genuinely the dumbest shit I've seen posted on Ozb… and the bar is really low. OP's display pic should indicate the level of intellect we're dealing with here.

    I manage a team of specialist IT staff, and we've been WFH for the past 2 years. Going forward, our leadership has essentially indicated that they are happy for people to work in a hybrid model, with the number of days WFH being up to the discretion of the employee. This is simply caveated with the requirement, that if there are specific projects that assigned folks NEED to be in the office/site to complete, they are to facilitate that to the best of their ability.

    At the moment, most of my team (and my team at large) are full time WFH and we're working onsite as need arises for the duration required (and doesnt need to be 9-5).

  • Diji on 11/04/2022 - 10:32
    +2

    I think the full benefits of working from home as the norm are yet to be seen.

    For example:

    • Fewer cars during peak hour making for easier commutes for those with jobs that aren't able to be done remotely. Not to mention lower car usage is a bit of an environmental benefit.

    • More job availability for those living further from major city centres. This has lots of knock on effects, including:

    • Less competition for homes close to the capitals which is nothing but good considering the nightmare it is right now

    • Fewer people having to uproot their lives to move closer to work, which means they can maintain the support networks they've built

    • For those who are able and willing to move, moving to a regional centre will be a more feasible option

    Of course that's all super long term stuff that depends on remote work/telecommuting becoming widespread.

    • Nebargains on 11/04/2022 - 11:12

      Fewer cars during peak hour making for easier commutes for those with jobs that aren't able to be done remotely.

      Is there any actual data that backs that up? The times I've driven to the office recently, traffic seemed no different to pre Covid and my friends in jobs that can't be done remotely reckon traffic is no different.

      • Diji on 11/04/2022 - 11:14

        No, because remote working currently makes up only a tiny portion of jobs and is not the norm.

      • serpserpserp on 11/04/2022 - 18:39
        +1

        It's because everyone is still to scared to use public transport. Don't want to get the spicy cough.

  • TheKas on 11/04/2022 - 10:42
    +1

    OP you can't generalise and say WFH is inefficient compared to the office. There's lot of people in my office that go for a coffee break or a walk around the campus every hr or so.
    WFH offers superior flexibility to most people and they feel liberated to do their job in a style they're most comfortable with.
    I don't think you've got to worry about your job security if your're in a specialised role, generalised jobs such as basic tech support, customer service etc may be at risk. But most major telcos have their sales teams based locally. There's many times I've spoken to the sales team based in my city for new phone/sim plans.

  • bobolo on 11/04/2022 - 10:43
    -2

    As a business owner, I've replaced the people that cannot or refuse to come into the office. Plenty of people looking for work out there in my industry. Interestingly the staff who didn't want to come in were mostly the admin side of the business, and I have already outsourced their roles to the Phillipines for a fraction of the cost + wayyyyy more productive. These people are hungry for work and not entitled.

    My staff were nowhere near as productive WFH vs in the office during lockdowns. Also the back and forth communication of having your colleagues sit within the same room to work out problems/improve/adhoc training cannot be replicated. Office culture and daily motivation was also non existent and important in my business

    As a business owner, my priority is the bottom line/ensuring the company is performing at max ability, and if WFH is going to affect that, then I will steer the company away from that direction

    • Mr Random on 11/04/2022 - 16:36

      Depends on the job.
      Sounds like its not physical labour as you said you can outsource to Phillipines.

      I've found the opposite. People more productive and waste less time when WFH. Are they online at exactly 9-5? No. But the work gets done and people are available when communication is needed.

      Either you had a bad batch, which should not effect the flexibility of the others. Or its a management problem and you need to get up to speed with better practices if you want to succeed in future.

      There are a lot of great workers out there who now understand the value of WFH, and your business will ultimately lose great talent with the mindset above.
      Ask yourself the question. Am I entitled (as you put it) if I want a better work/life balance if I request to WFH and keep productivity and quality standards up?

      • bobolo on 11/04/2022 - 17:17
        +2

        Nope definitely not physical labour.

        I've tested it over the past 2 years. A mixture of WFH only, hybrid, and office only. By far and away being in the office was more productive. This was across 50 staff members. Even myself as a business owner, I find myself being way more focused in a place where the only thing to do is work.

        I am humbly already very successful as a company and the staff we have are at the very top of their game. They are incentivised so that the more effort/dedication they put in, the more they get out from both a financial and career development perspective. They don't clock watch and whilst they certainly work hard and long hours from time to time, they by in large "choose to" as I don't micromanage and dictate when they must show up or leave. They also have a lot of flexibility to take time off or spend the odd morning/afternoon/day with their families without penalty.

        We also do plenty of activities during work hours that can be spontaneous - lunches, drinks, dinners, even bowling. Quite often a bunch of us just "move" the office to a local pub and just work from there whilst having a few beers. Employees love the vibe and culture. Mutual respect is key but as a company, the mandate is that they show up to the office for work.

        • serpserpserp on 11/04/2022 - 18:44
          +2

          Well it is certainly strange that everyone loves your company and doing everything they can for it. Then all of a sudden just do a big backflip due to working from home. Would say it has more to do with management and the transition/support of WFH than anything else.

          • bobolo on 12/04/2022 - 10:28
            -1

            @serpserpserp: A few have, not everyone. Vast majority are very happy to be back in the office

  • eklipsils on 11/04/2022 - 10:44
    +4

    The 9-5 mindset is based from the industrial age. We have moved on from that and I believe in effecient and effective work. None of this 9-5 office bs. I can get more done WFH than going to an office.

  • bobolo on 11/04/2022 - 10:59
    -1

    Offshoring is evolving and evolving fast. Candidates are no longer only suitable for task based, robotic admin type work anymore. Some don't even have their native accents when speaking English, let alone a language barrier. Some of my Phillipines staff are talking to clients directly as though they are in the Australian office, problem solving on their own and incredibly educated/experienced in very specific and niche roles.

    For a country that manufactures almost nothing and is largely a service based nation, all I can say is be careful what you wish for.

  • PurchaseAnxiety on 11/04/2022 - 11:02
    +1

    Don't give your boss an excuse to outsource your job interstate

    Why would my boss give up one remote worker who knows the role well for another that knows less and is even further away? I don't think it's to pay a lower salary, because the opposite is occurring from what I've seen. Melb / Sydney based companies need workers and they're paying high salaries for remote workers in SA, WA etc. If your boss was so stubborn about coming into the office, then you've never had as much opportunity elsewhere as you do now (of course this depends on the industry, skillset etc. I'm aware it's not all sunshine and rainbows). Outsourcing overseas comes with a lot of challenges and does not lend itself to a lot of roles. Most roles that can be outsourced overseas, likely already have been for some time.

  • GUYANDSON on 11/04/2022 - 11:08
    +3

    You're dreaming if you think offshore resources can fully replace a WFH/hybrid workforce. There's certain roles that they can fulfil and excel at but others are an absolute nightmare. Language and cultural barriers can be very real, you can't really invest in an overseas employee the same way either.

    • bobolo on 11/04/2022 - 11:20
      -1

      This is evolving fast. For example, the offshoring company I use have candidates who go through specific courses to speak English with an Australian accent. There is also a growing trend where people from the Phillipines are taking courses to learn laws specific to Australia such as accounting/legal practices. Some employers are even paying for these workers (those who have been with the business for a number of years) to go through an entire Australian uni degree online to learn local legislation and take on a more senior role.

      You are right in saying there are cultural barriers. They do not have a culture of entitlement

      • misu p on 11/04/2022 - 13:48
        -1

        "People are saying" bullshit on this.

        "Growing trend", "some employers" and "people" is Trump talk for lies.

    • [Deactivated] on 11/04/2022 - 16:36
      +1

      You better believe multi-million dollar companies are spending big bucks to work on those issues, and eventually they will.

  • baskinghobo on 11/04/2022 - 11:13

    As a student who did the majority of his studies from home during the peak of the pandemic I think there is a strong bias on these sites of people claiming that they are more productive WFH since most of the people here probably are already used to spending many hours in front of their computer anyway. Most of the students I know struggled trying to study at home and this was besides the fact that they gave us many extensions and the exams were simplified and changed to an open book format.

    • ThadtheChad on 11/04/2022 - 11:26
      +3

      That is not a like-for-like comparison IMHO.

      As a student you are at the infancy in terms of time-management and autonomous decision making skills. Furthermore the subject matter that you're actively engaging in is not something you're an expert at (and hence the need to study). I'd also expect a fairly undeveloped ability to "self-motivate" as students.

      In a lot of respects you guys really had it incredibly hard, and coupled with the Uni mechanisms not being fully suited for online delivery makes this especially challenging.

      WFH works when you know what the hell you're doing. This is why for newbies/grads in our team, good teams would have a very regimented training approach coupled with a lot of support over slack/teams AND regular check-ins with the mentor.

      • baskinghobo on 11/04/2022 - 13:12

        Maybe you're right but I just find it hard to believe that productivity won't be affected WFH for most people. I can see it working if it's only a few days a week or if it's in cases where they have very long commute times but not in general.

        • ThadtheChad on 11/04/2022 - 15:32

          There definitely are challenges, but with good management they are definitely surmountable. I've worked in teams where most would be WFH for a few days in a week (pre-covid) and then we went full-remote once the pandemic hit. Since there already was a loose protocol and structure, it was a seamless transition for us. We found our upper management and other more conventional teams struggle a bit till they found their "sweet spot" and now all are absolutely married to the idea of hybrid working.

          Remote working is nothing new and has been quite prevalent in a number of industries for many years now- it's just thanks to COVID we're suddenly all talking about it. Productivity will only suffer if the quality of staff motivation is subpar (a management issue), staff are not provided adequate support and tooling (also a management issue) or staff are deadbeats (…say it with me… a management issue!).

          I also think there is a perception that "productivity will suffer" that middle management from especially conservative boomer-tier outfits have that needs to change. It shows an outdated understanding of their role (they are not policing the staff, instead, they are enablers that MANAGE and facilitate) and leads to micromanagement - something that doesn't belong in the 21st century.

  • kalithreaver on 11/04/2022 - 11:23
    +5

    lol.

    if a job was going to be outsourced to india then it would have been already. you also seem to overlook the businesses positives of working from home, some people cant switch off and work way past their hours. i would have to force my wife to take breaks and finish for the day. its always that one extra email so that you can show them that you are being productive.

    • Cheaplikethebird on 11/04/2022 - 13:33
      +1

      Yep showing your face in the office isn’t going to do much to save your job if management decides it’s a better business decision to outsource.

  • frostman on 11/04/2022 - 11:33
    +6

    Dumb Thread.

    1.) Why would a boss mind an internal worker WFH and not turning up to office, but doesn't mind a 3rd party company, whom he has no control on THEIR WFH policy seem like a better idea?

    2.) Any half-brain manager can pick up productivity loss from their staff WFH if they do the shopping or play games all day…not that hard to provide formal warning letters.

    3.) WFH saves me 40min each way on train (listening to music) plus 15mins walk from station, whilst I decide to drop buy my favourite Cafe and spend 10mins in queue. 1.5hrs loss of work.

    4.) WFH allows me to schedule 5pm-5:30pm/ meetings as ppl WFH generally don't have to bolt to catch a train home.
    Most of my staff now also attend phone meetings at 8.30am and 12pm slots as ppl can just eat at home anytime

    5.) WFH saves me hearing my staff on a daily basis, SMS me and tell me they're running late to a meeting as their train is delayed/held up/suicide attempt on tracks/shitty Sydney Trains issue.

    6.) WFH reduced my approval of "sickies" because ppl had to do a small errand or had a mild cold.

    7.) If ppl going to bludge WFH, they will also find similar alternatives in office.

    8.) Get Good.

  • iCandy on 11/04/2022 - 11:34
    +1

    Everyone who wants WFH always gets angry when someone else brings up the probability your job could be outsourced to anyone around the world. You’re angry because you want to keep WFH. But OP isn’t trying to pull your job; he’s merely pointing out the fact that employers could outsource any WFH job to someone overseas cheaper so be careful pushing for WFH. I commend OP for bringing this possibility to everyone’s attention. I recommend everyone research the jobs that have been suggested could be automated or outsourced in future. And stop getting angry at these posts; they’re merely a warning.

    • sheamas88 on 11/04/2022 - 11:47
      +2

      WFH is the future, companies and managers need to come to grips with that. Coming in and threatening offshoring jobs is much easier to do than actually doing it. People like you wanna think everyone is more easily replaced than they actually are. An individual is easily replaced, but thousands of workers together are not.

      Everyone who works in an industry with offshoring has a story about how their company tried it, realised they get what they pay for then end up bringing most of the jobs back to AU. Yeah there is always going to be jobs lost of offshoring but the vast majority of those jobs are the low-skill, low-effort jobs that already pay poorly even when based in Australia.

      If it's so easy to offshore to save a buck, please feel free to address any of my points here

      • iCandy on 12/04/2022 - 14:36

        Did you even read what I said??

  • Queue2Queue on 11/04/2022 - 11:44
    +3

    So WFH isn't more productive but your argument is to outsource for others to WFH ?

    It's all industry dependant, and for me WFH is more productive whereby I see only going to the office to socialise.
    If you want output you'll find me at home.
    If you want me to play the corporate game and climb the ladder, see you in the office.

    The people I find who complain about WFH are boomers who want to get away from the wife and kids.
    The people who prefer to work in the office are zoomers who are still living at home with parents.
    Us millennials well its been gravy.

    The last 2+yrs has opened up to work with (government and private) clients across all of Australia which before it was stick to your own state.

    GL to ya, but it sounds like the WFH issue is with you, and now that your output is more measurable it hasn't worked well for you.

  • Brianqpr on 11/04/2022 - 11:52
    +1

    I absolutely am more productive at home because I do not get interrupted or distracted nearly as much as when in the office. I'm also happier, less tired, better life balance etc. My manager has no problem with people working from home and we've agreed to go into the office once a fortnight to catch up but that's it.

    If businesses want to outsource jobs, they are going to do it regardless of whether people WFH or not. Best you can do is try to have have skills and knowledge that are not easily sourced overseas. If anything there has been a move away from outsourcing in recent years, due to the lower quality of service you usually end up with.

    My company has just adjusted its office space requirements for the anticipated new normal, so they are already making savings.

  • raginggiant on 11/04/2022 - 12:01
    +1

    Anyone who thinks outsourcing is easy or a cost saving is a fool who is going to lose a lot of money. Getting good people is hard here or in India/Poland/Uruguay/wherever. I've been remote for years, I work for a US company so it could be argued I am already outsourced because I could get more money if I wanted to move to Silicon Valley or New York. I've also managed remote foreign teams for years, it is very hard and requires a very specialised skillset. I don't profess to be the god of outsourcing but anyone who thinks it is an easy way to save on wages is going to fail. You need all kinds of management systems and processes to succeed in outsourcing, just like you need some specialised processes to manage work from home. There are a bunch of complete failure middle managers out there who have really struggled with external staff through covid, that's on them though. If your underlings aren't working while WFH that's a failure of management, both in implementing good processes and in hiring the wrong people. If you think managers who can't handle same culture staff working from home in the same country do you truly believe they could deal with all of the added complexities of outsourcing (which is orders of magnitude harder than managing a WFH team).

  • drprox on 11/04/2022 - 12:08
    +2

    Lol
    What makes me think I can? Easy. I'm paid less than I'm worth (my choice) and good at my job. There is a labour shortage too.

    Of course I can WFH and if I make it a key part of retaining my services I hope it's agreeable.
    If not I'll simply leave and find a more supportive employer who believes my actual outputs are more important than where I sit my backside each day.

  • isthatallyougot on 11/04/2022 - 12:17
    +3

    The stupidest post ever . People seem to think that companies haven't done deep dives into understanding years ago which roles could have been outsourced.

    Most basic ops roles got outsourced years ago.

    My previous company outsourced my ops role 10 years and got rid of 50 out of 100 staff. They now however have 150 onshore staff as they have created more roles onshore to handle new types of higher skilled work.

  • RocketSwitch on 11/04/2022 - 13:32
    +3

    I'm in IT. Permanently work from home. My job in 12 years is still not outsourced overseas. So, not happening. If it does, apply for a new job? What's the problem? However, my company employs people all around the world and has offices all around the world. So outsourcing isn't their forte, they want long-term talent.

    • kalithreaver on 11/04/2022 - 17:46

      what type of IT role/work do you do?

      • RocketSwitch on 13/04/2022 - 11:32
        +1

        Adobe Campaign/email dev.

        • kalithreaver on 13/04/2022 - 12:27

          Is that stuff like using illustrator to make advertising materials?

  • Coeusky on 11/04/2022 - 13:40
    +6

    OP, the point you are trying to make is a gross generalisation.

    Let me give you a rundown of my situation.

    Im a network engineer and live a little over an hour away from work. I spend approximately 2.5 hours per day on the road to work an 8-5 job. I get to the office, sit in my own office and spend my day preprovisioning hardware that is shipped to me, and connecting to remote sites that i support. I am constantly disrupted by sales colleagues and accounts people about things that have nothing to do with me or my role. To add to that, there is the constant expectation when sales guys are busy (read: just arent answering calls intentionally), that i answer calls to assist with sales stuff, or chase around trying to work out where someone is at with an order.

    This often leads me into a situation where I end up constantly with an unfinished workload.

    And its not that we are understaffed, its just people are being lazy.

    In 2020 i spent 8 months working from home. All my work was on time, and 100%.

    I setup my own lab network at home, far superior to what is provided to me at work.

    The sales staff did their job because they knew that they had to answer the phones cause there was no one else there to do it.

    I was a HELL OF A LOT more efficient working from home, and yes, whilst also being able to Netflix in the background still delivering 25-50% more work output than i would have going into the office.

    To top it off, mentally, I was infinitely better off. You have no idea how mentally exhausted you can be spending 2.5 hours a day driving to perform a job you could have done from home.

    That equated to literally almost a solid month of driving EVERY SINGLE YEAR, 24 hours a day.

  • [Deactivated] on 11/04/2022 - 13:52
    +5

    What is this low quality bait post? We all know WFH works (pun extremely intended). If businesses wanted to outsource your job, then they would have done so already. Off your high-horse mate, there's work to do

    • Queue2Queue on 11/04/2022 - 14:28
      +3

      100% bait post
      OPs last 2 posts are being a transphobe who doesn't wash his arse

    • cashews on 11/04/2022 - 18:45

      Someone with a Trump avatar who gets off on trolling people? Unheard of /s

  • CheapAddict on 11/04/2022 - 15:03

    I am the boss. I wouldn't outsource my team offshore and reduce quality of work I get from my staff. There's also something called culture and team dynamics. It plays a huge part and skills alone are not enough. I also encourage my team to WFH and come in when required. We are in IT so our requirements in the office are different to most and we are not support roles.

  • IM-Cheap on 11/04/2022 - 15:14

    I advocate for more flexible working split between office and home. I can't do all of my job from home but I could do about 60% of it. Also not all of us are weak to the internet - I do the same amount of procrastination in and out of office.

    If I (and coworkers) could work from home 2-3/5 days that's less days of travel (less CO2, less traffic, less road wear) and less days of me using office resources.

    • serpserpserp on 11/04/2022 - 18:51

      Out of interest what is the 40% you can't do? Are you in sales?

      • IM-Cheap on 12/04/2022 - 14:29

        Product development. The 40% is primarily testing and other data gathering. The 60% is data analysis, drafting presentation material and technical writing. Oh and meetings - I think 10% are better to hold in person and 90% can be done just fine on teams.

  • Mr Random on 11/04/2022 - 16:27
    +1

    Bit narrow minded of you. And if my workplace had the same untrusting mind set as that I would be searching for a new job.

    I'm a software engineer, which means I am capable of doing my job regardless of environment.
    My last employer wanted everyone back in the office as soon as things begun to open back up. With no regards to the increased productivity that they had experienced during the WFH period. When asking why they require people in office, we were told it was because management could not keep track of us as well as they could when in office. Needless to say, 4 weeks later I was in a new job where they valued their workers.

    If you have a good work ethic, and enjoy your work, it should not matter if there is a gaming console or tv in the same room/house. If the work gets done, it gets done.
    I value the additional time I get for myself when I am not having to commute to work 3 hours of the day. Definitely more productive when I'm not stuck in a car a good portion of the day.

    And yes, I would expect a pay rise even if im WFH. If im putting in the extra effort, taking on additional responsibilities and results are clearly visible. What does it matter if I am at this place or that?

    It may not work for everyone, but to say people can only be productive in a 9-5 office is pure bs.

  • CRS34 on 11/04/2022 - 16:47

    Sounds like you should judge people on output, rather than assuming they're slacking off at home.

    I could go to the office and act like im doing work and still accomplish nothing?

    • serpserpserp on 11/04/2022 - 18:53
      +1

      could go to the office and act like im doing work and still accomplish nothing?

      Most people

  • Domingo on 11/04/2022 - 16:48
    +1

    OP, may I ask what prompted you to make this post? You've got a very firm view, what is that based on?

    Do you manage a team of workers that you want to come back to the office but don't want to? Or something similar?

    Would be fascinating to know and sorry if you've already answered, I read through most of the thread but didn't see an answer.

    • Cheaplikethebird on 11/04/2022 - 17:05
      +2

      OP likes to run with every contrarian viewpoint they hear because it reinforces their deluded worldview where they're incredibly smart and savvy and everyone else is an idiot. At least that's my guess.

  • sir-screwball on 11/04/2022 - 16:52
    +2

    Someone seems annoyed that their staff are working from home more and sounds like someone's a micromanaging jerkoff who doesn't trust their staff.

  • PleasureMe on 11/04/2022 - 17:03
    +3

    Why am I not surprised that this BS post is coming from someone with Trump as their avatar.

    I am far more productive working from home as I save 2 hours in travel time per day. I spend those 2 hours working, so the company actually gets an extra 2 hours of work from me per day. I should be getting a pay rise for WFH! I will never go back to working full time in the office. GTFO of here Trump.

  • jno on 11/04/2022 - 17:33
    -1

    imagine having this much of a shit take lol

  • velleyy on 11/04/2022 - 19:02

    The question is how do you measure productivity?

    Where I work most of us definitely works a lot longer than we do in the office. I know I do, because I don't pack up and go home when I'm already at home. There is no switching off during the day, my lunch could be 3pm some days because of the calls and things to catch up on.

    If people can afford to "slack" around and still delivers, I really don't get what's the issue here. Sure, some aren't performing, but how is that different from someone that's not performing when they are in the office?

    I remember when I was at a big four bank, they did monitor our KPIs and requested people who were failing to go in to the office for better support/learning. It's all about the flexibility.

  • yamahamoto on 11/04/2022 - 19:09

    Pre covid I packed my bag and leave at 5pm and I won’t log on after hour because I completed my work during work hour. Now WFH Im not doing 9-5 but more 9-9. I don’t sit in front of my laptop the whole time but I make sure I get my work done so management have nothing to worry about. Only people who slack off need to worry about losing their jobs. As long as you do your job there should not be an issue with wfh.

  • Wasabi Ninja on 11/04/2022 - 19:30
    +1

    Is that you Slavoz?

  • lonewolf on 11/04/2022 - 19:51
    +2

    There is some truth to saying we can be outsourced, but generally besides extremely low level (read of a sheet and ask questions and answers like a FAQ) support, I have found a lot of outsourced / cheaper overseas labour just arent as qualified or have the skill level the same as in australia. Even amongst the people we have hired in my teams / company where they seem far more qualified on paper than the other people on our team who were australian qualified, their level of skill and knowledge was basically zero or very low. We were shocked, some had extremely high level qualifications that were impossible to get to with their knowledge or skill they were displaying. Only thing we could decide upon was that, these qualifications were lies and / or bought for / paid qualifications from universities overseas …

  • BreezyPalms on 11/04/2022 - 20:17
    +2

    Lol at all the people commenting during business hours when they should be working

  • peekabooo on 11/04/2022 - 21:34

    I work from home fulltime. My clients are all over Australia there's a place where I can work from but there's no office with people I work with. I don't know how far I can push this if nothing changes I might move to some remote place in Queensland and get starlink.

  • Zondor on 11/04/2022 - 21:38
    +1

    You always get what you pay for.

  • [Deactivated] on 11/04/2022 - 22:26
    +1

    Ha! I've reclaimed 15+ hours a week from commute alone since I started WFH.

    At work, I'm more productive throughout the day and engagement with colleagues is more focused. Collaboration and communication is better than ever. I delivered over 200% on target last year. I hit my bonus cap and got a nice raise to my base (and increased allowances). I'm regularly chipping in overtime and it doesn't feel like a burden.

    Personally, I'm much happier. I sleep better, stress levels are down, I'm eating better and have time to take care of things around the house as needed. In the evenings I can gym/cook/eat/clean all before I'd normally even get home. The balance is right and I'm bringing a better version of myself to work each day as a result.

    OPs workplace sounds like an absolute nightmare, but as they say, the fish rots from the head down.

  • Drakesy on 12/04/2022 - 01:56
    +2

    Not kidding anyone HR
    I left my last job for a company that offered 2 days wfh

    Previous employer couldn't fathom why i left until I told them they were stuck in the dark age forcing everyone into the office. Classic government bureaucracy, run by old men who use the office as an excuse to leave the house and get away from their wife.

    • Coeusky on 28/04/2022 - 12:40
      +1

      Reading this comment two weeks late.

      You are RIGHT ON THE MONEY.

      I've managed to negotiate WFH 1 day a week, and every time i bring up me wanting to do 3-4 days a week, this is always the point of discussion.

      "Why would you want to work form home??? I come to work as an escape from wife and kids!"

      Welp this says more about their commitment to their marriage then it does their work. Some of us do love our wives and we CAN tolerate being with each other all day. Isnt that why you get married? go figure…

      Looks like they need to re-evaluate where their lives are at.

      • Jason Genova on 28/04/2022 - 15:43

        1 day a week only? thats rough

  • smartazz104 on 12/04/2022 - 07:51
    +1

    So if they offshore your job because you prefer WFH, how will that be any different, given that these people are overseas? These middle managers with nothing better to do can micromanage someone on another continent, but not a local employee working from home?

    • [Deactivated] on 12/04/2022 - 08:04
      +2

      It costs them 1/3, they can actually hire someone just to manage them and still cut costs.

      • Zondor on 19/04/2022 - 18:00

        It costs them 1/3 until they realise they are getting 1/20th of the actual performance.

  • cenakhoa on 12/04/2022 - 08:04
    +1

    Wfh 4-5 days per week can only be efficient in execution phase of a medium-low risk project or in occupations that are result driven such as coding.

    Otherwise people should work from home 2-3 days per weeks and come to the office for face to face meeting, or in the planning phase of the projects.

    I have been working 100% from home in 2 years and then working 100% in the office and then switches to 2-3 days. I saw the benefits in my proposed time allocation.

    Outsourcing can only work for labor repetitive work, if so, it will need a lot of supervision and quality frameworks.

    My recommendation is that if you find your life and job become boring and tasteless, then come to the office. If you find too much distraction or physically tired, then work from home.

    People should remember a rule that if you are working at the office alone at your desk without any meeting or discussion, then it’s better work from home. But online meeting from home is not as efficient as office with current technology and technology manipulation skills

    • [Deactivated] on 12/04/2022 - 08:10
      +1

      My brother owns multiple companies and actually outsources alot of work.

      He has plenty of employees here, but they all must be ready for Zoom meetings at the drop of a hat. I think they get 3 strikes and that's it.

      Someone actually ghosted, and didn't claim 3 weeks pay because they skipped meetings.

      This theory long term that people think they'll be able to go to gym, shopping during work hours is a nice little dream.

      If companies do WFH, they'll put in measures to protect themselves.

      It doesn't matter what everyone wants, you don't own the companies and everyone is replaceable.

      I know so many people in the UK and America which earn less than roles here, so outsourcing can be to any English speaking country too…not just Asia.

      All of this depends on the role, but honestly if your job can be done from Home I feel like people must have very boring roles, and be easily replaceable.

      I keep seeing how difficult it is to manage people overseas, lol. These people will work twice as hard as any Aussie!

      I can already see specialist recruitment companies being started, it'd be huge money for out-sourcing work.

      • apsilon on 12/04/2022 - 08:14
        +1

        they all must be ready for Zoom meetings at the drop of a hat

        That's poor management and/or power tripping IMO.

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