Asking for a friend (of course) who had a near miss at a roundabout.
Car A was approaching a roundabout and car B is approaching the roundabout from the right. Car A slows down expecting to give way to the right but then sees car B has the indicator signalling to turn left.
The car A proceeds to go straight but B doesn't turn left and also proceeds straight with the left blinker still on.
If there's an accident, who's at fault if they both entered the roundabout at the same time.
@pharkurnell: Correct, both entered the same time, car A slower as was initially giving way to car B. Car B faster as going straight but indicating to turn left
@42: If they both entered at the same time then they would both have a slow bit at the beginning while turning into the roundabout at the same time and would not hit. Car B would have to be going much faster if they truly entered at the same time.
@42: Was "straight" the first or second exit on the roundabout? It must be the second exit for Car A to be joining at the first exit?
@42: Given that the majority follow the "give way to the right" (whether its still Part of the road rule or not), for your own safety just give way to the right, as car B may be expecting you to give way.
Don't enter the round about unless the car is definitely pointing/turning left into your road.
Round abouts are high risk areas, so don't be a slow poke and be in there for longer than necessary.
@Ughhh: I personally don't rely on the indicator myself, I look at what the car is actually doing. If they indicate left, I still give way until they do turn left then proceed into the roundabout. Indicators can't be trusted.
As my dad once said, “I taught you to drive - that’s 10% of driving safely, the other 90% is watching out for everyone else”.
Totally agree, I practice defensive driving and avoid accidents. Just because I'm right, doesn't mean I'm right, i'd rather avoid having my car at the panel beaters even though I'm in the right.
Much less having yourself in the panel beaters.
It was one of the first things i got taught when driving too!
If they both entered the roundabout at the same time leave it to an Insurance company to decide. Probably 50/50.
If neither are insured ask the experts on Whingepool. /s
If an accident did occur, based on the scenario, the Insurer for Car B would be pretty stupid to go for EBO i.e. 50/50
There was an incident on DCA recently where a car going straight ran a red light, which caused an accident for 2 cars that had the green light turning arrow (car 1 hit from behind car 2)… who would be at fault for this? Still the car 1??
Hitting someone from behind is almost always at fault. Following too closely is usual problem.
why would car 1 be at fault? They're not going to enter the intersection if it's not safe. car 2 99% of the time, not paying attention and rear ending someone lol
i meant car 1 hit car 2 from behind
3rd option. Car A & B in the wrong.
Can't add to poll
then 42 is your answer.
Always has been
""then 42 is your answer""
Is that you Arthur ?
Car C!
3rd party insurance, people always blame someone else, than themselves.
My answer will be the same as pegaxs so no real point in me answering.
My driving instructor used to say to watch the tyres turn of the car on the right before entering the roundabout, in case they’re lying on the indicator. You have to look out for yourself when driving!
yea that would go well on the police report… I was watching his tyres… nothing else…
What if you told the police officer: “Sir, his tires were pointing in a south-westerly direction, and I wanted to go in a north-westerly direction. Clearly, there was no danger of a collision, so I proceeded as planned. Then his tires suddenly turned to point in a westerly direction and he ran straight into the back of my car. Sir, it’s clearly his fault for changing his mind after he had entered the roundabout.”
You can also kind of tell by how fast they're going and when/if they apply a bit of brake if they're turning or not.
Wouldn't the first movement of every vehicle immediately prior to entering a roundabout be to the left regardless of their planned exit??
This is single lane roundabout
POST THE oops caps, post the dashcam footage!!!
Indicators cannot be relied upon if you get into an accident
That's what I'm trying to find out, if indicating incorrectly contributing to an accident is a legal thing
afraid not. I commented above:
"it's about whoever's already on round about already and who doesn't give way
generally you give way to your right and if they managed to hit you no matter the speed, then you haven't given way"
The silly car could have no lights, hazard lights, wrong lights…. if they are approaching from the right and they manage to hit you then you haven't given way
now lets say the car was trying to commit insurance fraud and the car sped up on purpose to T-Bone someone… that can be debatable but still, they wouldn't of been able to hit you if you were stationary (giving way)
No, it is not.
indicator is more for the person behind to "indicate" your intentions but that can't be relied upon as well
I would say it's more for the oncoming traffic but what do I know?
everyone then
Simples.
If dash cam then driver of car B and you have proof.
If no dash cam then driver of car A as it's driver's word and the insurance and police can only go by the facts (as car B would say they were not turning left) and such B had right of way.
Real story: Do NOT assume cars at the round about are turning based on their indicator, but use it as a warning that they could do anything. Most new expensive cars must have some automatic light indicators as I have seen allot of new expensive cars start to turn and then the indicator starts….. So much for indicating before entering a round about or at an intersection.
There is dashcam proof but even if there is proof whether there is a law to apply the evidence to
I remember reading somewhere that indicator is to indicate where you are going but it doesn't 100% mean you will be going there
On another note…. I was in an accident and someone didn't give way to me and I rear ended them after running a red light half a second before. Person I rear ended was at fault and cops saw the footage of me running a red light said it can't be used as evidence to charge me for the red light as it wasn't an authorised device like red light camera or witness by police in person.
Dash cam is a weird one… sometimes can use sometimes cannot.
But I don't think indicating wrongly can override failing to giving way
Police and insurance companies work are slightly different with regards to:
* Police can't use it to charge someone, but can use it to gain a search warrant or investigate things further.
* Insurance companies can use it to get out of paying or try and get another party to pay.
I saw a brand new BMW yesterday, and it didn't have that automatic indicators feature.
Out of blinker fluid?
In W.A the answer is ""trust no bastard""
ROAD SAFETY ROAD RULES 2017 - REG 114
Giving way when entering or driving in a roundabout
(1) A driver entering a roundabout must give way to—
(a) any vehicle in the roundabout; and
(b) a tram that is entering or approaching the roundabout.
Penalty: 5 penalty units.
Both entering at the same time
Then both cars are entering a roundabout and must give way to any other vehicle in the roundabout… taps nose
So the car that hit the other car is at fault
If Car A relied on Car B's indicator then Car B would have had to have already been in the roundabout.
Car A entering roundabout slowly, car B going at speed
This is the bit that gets me. Car B is going at speed, and still Car A thought it was turning? Indicator or not, if Car B was travelling at speed I'd assume it's not turning at all.
At speed meaning not stopping to give way, so at speed to turn left or go straight in a roundabout is similar but faster than a car that's come to a stop then proceeds into the roundabout.
If both cars entered at the same time then as commented by others there wouldn't be a collision unless Car B sped up and hit Car A from behind. I don't see how Car B's indicator is relevant under this scenario.
Car B hits car A as car A has slowed to give way but realises that don't need to as car B is turning left. Car B going at speed and going straight but maybe indicating left by accident expects car A to give way but car A doesn't as expecting car B to be turning left.
Car B must have already been in the roundabout.
If he was not then he must have slowed to turn into the roundabout in the first place. In this case Car A would already be far enough away from Car B to not hit unless Car B was massively speeding (in which case Car A would have been stupid to enter the roundabout with a hoon tearing towards him).
Post the dashcam footage as I don't believe they entered at the same time.
Its more a case of if indicating incorrectly contributing to an accidental is an offence.
@42: Whether or not car B indicated correctly doesn't have any bearing on the fault distribution. It only matters who was in the roundabout first.
You mention that car A had slowed to give way. But you don't give way IN a roundabout, why would car A have slowed down in a roundabout? This part is boggling me.
The more I read about the OP discussing / justifying the scenario the more I realise they are talking bulltish.
/thread
Its more a case of if indicating incorrectly contributing to an accidental is an offence.
Let the insurance company deal with it. That's why I pay them $700pa. It's their problem. Not mine.
Yeah and they’ll end up making both parties at fault and getting both excess from both parties. Win for the insurance co but loss for both parties
Some cars can't cancel indicator light
Been in Australian design rules since 60's or earlier.
Some drivers can't / don't
Indicators do not give you the right to forget road rules, from either side, making the indication or seeing the indication.
You can be fined for not using your signal correctly or using it incorrectly, but that doesn’t shift blame for an accident onto the person indicating incorrectly or not at all. The onus is on the other driver to give way when required, indicator or not.
In the event of an accident, it would be down to he said/I said, but generally the copper won’t give a shot about indicators, and more about who was supposed to give way.
And timing in your story is bullshit. If they both arrived at the exact same time, travelling at the same speed and were both going straight, there shouldn’t be an issue. An issue would only arise if one car was travelling a lot faster or a lot slower than the other at the entry to the round about.
It’s hard to say who is at fault because it’s hard to determine what speeds they were doing, what distances they need to travel, the size and angles in the round about, etc…
An issue would only arise if one car was travelling a lot faster or a lot slower than the other at the entry to the round about.
That's what happened in this case. Car A slowed down to stop at the roundabout as expecting to give way. The other car going straight at speed as expecting the other car to give way.
FourTwo,
Learn the road rules before driving, can you suggest another possibly life impacting activity you would enter into without knowing the rules? Would you fly a plane not knowing the rules?
Not sure what state you are in? In Vic, it is optional to signal intention to leave a roundabout "if practicle to do so". As Car A appraches the roundabout, driver has seen Car B (must have to see any signal), if Car B was on the roundabout Car A must give way regardless of signal, if Car B was not on the roundabout, Car A should proceed regardless of signal, Car B would then give way to Car A since Car A is on the roundabout regardless of signal.
3."Car A slowed down to stop at the roundabout as expecting to give way" this driver is wrong and should learn the rules, a roundabout is not a T intersection. If Car A stopped, yet A and B entered at the same time, Car A stopped when Car B was not yet on the roundabout and is wrong. Car A shoudl earn the road rules. If car A follows the rules, not only does this improve congestion (the reason the roundabout exists) then there is no crash possible.
Car B perhaps should be approaching the roundabout with caution and at a speed that would allow Car B to give way if required to do so. Since Car A was stopped and not yet on the roundabout (incorrectly), Car B can enter the round about (provided no other vehicles already on the roundabout that Car B should give way to).
Consider a non roundabout intersection were Car A is waiting at a giveway to enter or cross the intersection. Car B is appraoching from the right.
Car A has to give way to the right and waits to enter the intersection. Car B then takes a left turn at the intersection without signalling intention to do so, in this case Car A may not have had to wait, if you were Car A would you risk entering the intersection based on non signal?
Similarly if Car B is signalling intention to turn left, if you were Car A would you enter the intersection based on the signal? This is what Car A did at a roundabout (entered same time). If I was Car A I would not enter the intersection on the signal, I would take visual of the driver and the speed of the car and would enter the intersection once visual indication received that Car B is actually taking the left turn. It is a risk to enter on signal of intention alone, Car B could be signalling for another left turn 10 metres past the intersection, entering on signal alone in this case would cause a crash.
My suggestion if you care - know the rules, be wary of other drivers, (they might be like you and not sure about the rules) build your road experiece such that you can identify when a car is entering a roudabout at such speed (enough to hit a car entering at the same time) although signalling, and may not be travelling at a speed to make the turn as signalled.
Same thing happened to me today, I was car A, but actually didn't proceed to go straight, possibly avoiding an accident.
Pisses me off when people turn left in that situation and don't use a blinker, but what that profanity did was much worse.
Similar thing can happen when your trying to turn left into a multi lane highway and the car on the left lane of the highway is signalling to turn left but doesn't.
FFS modes need to start banning these stupid car accident posts
NOOOOO. This is our bread and butter… and we haven't had one in ages. It's all been "what $new.vehicle should I buy for $random.budget"
Also, not my neg. I am all out today thanks to anti-vaxxers.
The linking verb is at fault here 😷😂
Bizarrely or not, in Victoria it's give way to whoever is on the roundabout first
https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/safety-and-road-rules/road-r…
If the dash cam capture the footage, B could be at fault.
In practice we all give way to a fast car approaching the round-a-bout that is on our right. Even if it will not enter the round-a-bout first. (Just admit it).
As for the OP, he could have looked to watch if Car B put his blinker on or if it was left on. (Ie. be a good attentive driver).
Regardless Car A needs to not trust blinkers.
Apologies if I'm rehashing something someone else has said.
Car A is majority at fault.
Depending on a few circumstances, contributory negligence could be applied to Car B.
Speed very rarely determines liability in an accident, as it's very hard to prove. Especially in this scenario - your friend saw them, assumed they were turning and proceeded into the round-about before it was safe to do so. Your friend can't have thought Car B was traveling too fast as they assumed they were going to turn and proceeded into the round-about anyway. Car B could have been indicating left into the first driveway past the round-about (dumb thing to do - but does happen). Alternatively, if Car B was wildly speeding on approach to the roundabout, commonsense would dictate you hold back and see what they were going to do.
This also casts doubt on the "both cars entered at the same time" - it's not really possible. If they had, they both would've carried on none the wiser of the other.
Car B would have to have traveled further through the round-about to get to a point where the two cars could collide. The presumption will be that they were in the round-about first.
If the cars had collided, impact points between the two would also play a factor. If the impact was Car B front end to Car A rear driver side, there's an argument that Car B has not kept a clear lookout and contributed to the accident - This doesn't mean they are responsible for it.
If impact was Car B rear passenger side to Car A front end - Car A is almost certainly 100% responsible for the collision.
Dash cam footage miiiight help if it clearly shows Car B indicating and then going straight through, but only in as much as reducing a portion of your friends overall liability.
Source: 12yrs of determining these for a living - One of the most common scenarios in the book.
it is the other car's fault.
Car A should be at fault, but isn’t. Law should be amended.
Imagine a shit ton of Car A actions in peak hour - traffic would be banked for miles
The car A proceeds to go straight but B doesn't turn left and also proceeds straight with the left blinker still on.
Let this be a lesson to you (uh…your friend) that you CANNOT trust ANYONE on the road to do what you think they will do.
It's called defensive driving.
An indicator doesn't mean anything. It doesn't mean they WILL do that. Hell, some people do things without indicators.
Go look at dashcams australia on youtube. Half of those accidents can be avoided if the person was being defensive rather than assuming everyone else on the road is sane.
at the time of writing this, 35/191 voters think car B was at fault.
That means that in this poll, 18% of drivers really don't have a clue about driving.
Which is a worry for the rest of us.
If there’s dashcam, lead with that?
I was taught to never trust the indicator of a car approaching as the driver may change their mind / have left it on from a lane change / may have put it on for a driveway just after the intersection.
Always wait until you can see where the persons head is looking and the cars position. It doesn't hurt to wait a second or two to be sure where they are going.
This is the correct answer.
/thread
Correct indicators on a car only really tell you that the light is working not the direction of travel
Guy could’ve had his hazards on for all you know!!
“I thought he was turning left” is never something that can be used to avoid blame.
Regardless if he had indicator on or not.
Regardless if it was round a about or not. Same goes for a car turning left/right on any given intersection.
After that is the meaning of “give way”. Not “I think I can squeeze in before they’re no longer in my path”
Be cautious of this because anyone who you’re supposed to give way to can signal to you to proceed with your action and just ram into you. You’ll be at fault.
How can there be an accident if "They both entered the roundabout at the same time"?? If they entered at exactly the same time the only way for B to hit A is if A was a slow poke and B rear ended A??
How can there be an accident
You've answered your own question
A was a slow poke and B rear ended A
I'm in disbelief at the stupidity of this accident if that's what happened.
That's how accidents happen
Roundabouts fault. If we didn’t have them, we wouldn’t have these issues.
Nah, if drivers knew how to drive at roundabouts we wouldn't have these issues.
If we didn't have roundabouts, we would have a lot of intersections with most likely a higher number of vehicle collisions.
Then you'll hear crickets in the ozbargain automotive forum
Depends who went into the roundabout first. Has nothing to do with giving way to the right
If A went in first. It's B's fault
Both entered the same time