According to news, Google threatens to leave Australia.
What do you think will happen?
Edit: for those that said VPN. VPN aren't free, and the links that Google redirects to will be under the VPN bandwidth, is it not?
What Happens if Google Leaves Australia?
Frankensnore on 23/01/2021 - 18:27
Last edited 24/01/2021 - 10:37 by 1 other user
Last edited 24/01/2021 - 10:37 by 1 other user
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Then I get into bixbi….
Google will still be here via www.google.com but just want show any australian content for the news etc.
I don't understand the issue, and the only view we're seeing is that of the newspaper/media owners.
As far as Facebook is concerned, the only news I've ever seen has been posted to Facebook by the news companies themselves, and when you click on the post, you go to their paywall. So why should Google have to pay for that? If the news companies don't want people to see what they post without paying for it, then the news companies should stop posting it!
Google search seems similar to me. Google search only finds things that people/companies post. News companies get to decide what is public and what is behind their paywall. Again, why should Google have to pay the news company for sending people to the news company?
I don't think it's about paying for the news at all, it's just about advertising. If someone goes to Google search, and most people do, Google gets to display advertising to those people. The news companies don't like that, since they don't get any of that advertising money. However, they do get the "referral" from Google for free, and once Google sends the searcher to them, the news companies can display whatever advertising they want. I really don't understand what they're whinging about.
it's just about advertising
This is it. As I said in my comment, Google and Facebook are fantastic at advertising. News companies (used to) make their money off advertising. It used to be if you wanted the news, you'd have to watch the free-to-air at 6pm or buy the paper. The news ad-breaks and newspaper used to be the only real way to reach a lot of people with advertising. Now, through Google/Facebook/etc, you can not only reach a lot of people, but you can be specific. i.e. I want my ads to reach people aged from 20-40yo who are interested in Bargains/Deals/Savings. Can the newspaper do that? No. Can the news websites do that? Probably. Are they as good as Google/Facebook at it? Probably not. Do they have the same reach as Google/Facebook? Pretty certainly not.
Add to that that you can now get your news from anywhere. Hell, I could get my Australian news off a UK paper/TV if I wanted to (don't know why I would, but I can).
News companies also used to provide all the news for free, with ads plastered all over their pages. What did that get them? Ad-blockers.
So of course, next we get ad-blocker-blockers and paywalls, and now due to the aforementioned "get your news from anywhere", a lot of people are happy to go read an article from somewhere else for free rather than pay for it. Why pay to read Murdoch when you can read it for free from the ABC?News companies were too slow to pivot into the internet age, made some other bad decisions along the way, and this is where it's landed them.
Does something need to change? Yes.
Is it up to the government to fix it for them? Maybe. Whilst I'm more than happy for Murdoch's empire to crumble, there are a lot of people's livelihoods in there. And just like any other industry in trouble, the government should help in some (not-necessarily-financial) capacity.
Is this media code the right way? No.
Bugger all as they want the money and minimize taxes paid in OZ. About time they paid their way in OZ.
If Oz government block access to google au then google can route requests to overseas Google and eliminate having to pay Australian tax completely.
The Australian government should work with big tech by lowering their taxes and provide other incentives. Make Australia a sweet place to setup shop and may be they'll move from 🇮🇪 to down under.
The Australian government should work with big tech by lowering their taxes and provide other incentives.
Because they don't do enough already? Corporate tax-"minimisation" is something that needs to be reduced, not increased.
About time they paid their way in OZ
haha you mean paying murdoch media money…. Yeah I guess thats like paying taxes, skip the middle man :)
Then maybe the government should change tax law so that they are paying it, I think this is a great idea, but they can't do that because it will affect their donor's companies as well.
I guess the best way is to target a company that has a lot of money and make them pay their customers for providing a free service that one would argue is critical to the news companies business, then on top of that force them to hand over their intellectual property which would allow them to manipulate the whole market, great idea.
Corruption at it's finest from our government.
I kind of hope they do. Google.com.au provides users with Australian specific results, when a lot of us really just want the ordinary google.com experience anyway. We will continue to just use the American google.com to search.
Your probably way behind the tech scene, google used to do that and you can get country specific content by using respective domain. But they've switched ip based or something similar search so unless you use vpn, google.com or google.cn will yield same results.
What about using the google.com/NCR trick? No country redirect. Worked last I checked (a long time ago I admit).
I still use that.
Have been, for as long as I remember- closer to a couple of decades?
NCR stops you being redirected to the country specific site, it doesn't stop the country specific results.
@gromit: Once you search on the site you want, for the country you want, you can get the results specific to that country. At least, that was how I'd get Google shopping to search USA sites.
You can still change the country specific content without a vpn. Go to google.com, click on settings at the bottom. Then click on search settings. In search settings scroll down to region settings and select the region you want.
VPN
Also I would be happy too if Google just removed every single paywalled news article from the search results altogether. I wouldn't click on them in the first place if I knew there was a paywall.
yea agree with that…
Great idea!
Lol.
Hard to find an emptier threat.
They are scared of opening the flood gates to the same sort of thing across the world, so they would forego $4b in Australia.
Well, maybe. They certainly go out of their way to avoid paying tax.I’ve got no dog in this fight, as I think the mechanism of the legislation is dumb, but google have played this like tone deaf amateurs. Which is kinda what they have become. They used to be an interesting technology business, now they are a business dedicated to squeezing maximum revenue from their market monopolies.
Worth remembering how cyclical these things are, and today’s dominance is tomorrow’s incompetents.
Netscape and yahoo were absolutely massive in Australia. Yahoo survives overseas but not here. Google could and probably will one day fall
Yahoo survives overseas but not here
Marissa’s Yahoo! is dead everywhere except Yahoo! Japan where it went independent a long time ago.
I think the demands of the media/laws are unfair. Yet, Google should be paying them money.
The mainstream media does most of the funding and leg-work to generate the news. However, the market is in a condition that anyone and everyone plagiarises off them without acknowledgement, consent, or compensation. And over the years they have lost revenue. Contrast to the likes of Google increasing revenue. While actual "fake news" has hit an all-time high. Disclaimer, I'm not saying MSM isn't immune to bias, being inaccurate, or even stealing content from others, but they do have financial incentives (and fines) to sway less towards that route. Google still serves Ads and makes profits on these alternative news providers on their platform regardless of plagiarism or accuracy.
Reason why Google should be paying them is for promoting their platform. And they hook into each other such as Google Search, which in-turn promotes Google Services, Adsense/Adword, Youtube, Maps, Translate, Gmail, Drive, Docs, Chrome, Android, PlayStore, etc etc.
…with that all said, I don't see Google removing itself from the AU market, and I don't see these laws to stick in their current condition. If anything should change, it's that the Media and Google both need to pay MUCH more money to Australia for their fair-share of taxation.
I think Australians should launch a class action suit against Murdoch media. Australians create the content that Murdoch media selectively reports and editorialises. So, surely the same argument holds, and Murdoch media should have to pay us for that content.
…sounds a lot sarcastic, but I agree, and the payment should be in the form of taxation. Neither Murdoch Media nor Google are paying their proper fair share of taxable income.
I mean most citizens pay 25% tax. These corporations are lucky to be paying 5% (yet they still complain) when they are actually supposed to be paying close to 40%.
These are not your friends.
Great analogy!! I think Google should only pay on their conditions, not because some stupid media company who did not evolve wants to survive.
I use Google scholar lots.. tht better stay
My first thought too…not keen to use web of science
Say the Googs does decide to give Australia the middle finger with their searches. Where do you think I should 'live' with my VPN to get the most Australian results? New Zealand?
Just put site:.au at the end of your google search string and you will get only results from web sites that end in .au
Google turnover in OZ $4.8 billion.
OZ tax paid by Google $53 million.
At least they paid something unlike many others who earned ten times that and paid nothing
https://www.michaelwest.com.au/australias-top-40-tax-dodgers…$53m is more than zero if they decide to block Australian IP addresses.
$50m tax paid from approx. $160m profit in Australia.
That's more tax than Murdoch paid across 5 years btw. Now factor in the $40m grant our government gave out to News Corp… Yeah go figure it out
Their true profit is obviously way more than your quoted figure. They are employing aggressive transfer pricing to shift profits from here to low tax jurisdictions in order to minimise tax paid in Australia.
If google only made 160m profit from au, then I’m baby Jesus and my mother was a virgin. We all know how bs the numbers they feed to the tax department is.
I find it quite ironic how hard quasi communists are defending google (who are only slightly less good than apple at hoarding profits overseas).
The whole point is they don’t pay their fair share of anything- tax, content, nothing.
News Corp revenue in Australia last 5 yrs: $13 billion
News Corp tax paid in Australia last 5 yrs: $8.5 million
Exactly. Screw Google.
Google turnover
tax paid by GoogleWhat does turnover have to do with taxes? You pay taxes based on profit, not revenue.
You pay taxes based on profit, not revenue.
it’s more difficult to obfuscate turnover. If Google AU paid Alphabet 99% for their own services, then there’s insignificant profit, despite billion $ revenue.
Woolworth Revenue 67B
Woolworth Profit 1.16BYou cannot conclude anything by just looking at the revenue number.
Are you sure the figures are for Google's search business?? Also, tax is not on turnover.
If as a small business, you have a turnover of a million dollars, but you make just 70k profit, you pay tax on 70k.
Just saying….
What the federal government wants is to increase control of australians, and their access to all news sources.
Yes its a cash grab but google search is way better than anything else in OZ.
when it goes so will access to an awful lot of news sources and that will make OZ even dumber than it is now.
it just reflects the current Liberal totalitarianism - good timing for Australia day.
I think it is an opportunity to start a new business "Gogle". Anyone want to join with me starting this business? haha
Google is making heaps from linked ads, IF they depart they I assume will not have that revenue!. I think it is fair for them to pay at some sort of level to a general "Media fund" to in part offset the benefit of free news pages. I do look at newspaper links apart from my personal paid news subscriptions …… when I look at other news postings, NY Times, South China Morning Post, The Daily Mail they come with attached ad feeds which the revenue stream must go to Google!. So stop crying poor, and at least offer some sort payment. If you dislike Australia so much as to threaten the netzens, then perhaps it is time to go!!.
What does it actually mean "Google Leaves Australia"? Will they ban all IP originating from Australia or just move the branch and servers out of Australia?
removes google.com.au instead you use google.com so its not technically Australia?
like how steam allowed their store to be used in Australia but only used usd and had no .au site so they could try to make the legal case that they are technically not in australiaWelcome back, Alta Vista? Perhaps Google would still work with a VPN (if desperate)?
In the end google is a business, and they would rather pull their search engine from what amounts to 0.3 of the worlds population than allow precedent for this model. Keep in mind google does not operate in China and just Shanghai has the same population as Australia.
As for Australia's interests, in a lot of countries the media is an extension of the state, in Australia it seems to be the other way round. Our politicians are so deeply in the pockets of these outlets that Murdoch will probably acknowledge global warming before the brownnosing ends.
The U.S doesn't want this going ahead either, it's just our polis lead by Mr ugly himself scomo.
I don't see either side giving in, google will give up a tiny proportion of their business and Askjeeves will make a triumphant return, this is the only way.
Google leaves Australia.
It would most likely mirror Huawei's departure. Staff sacked, operations moved off shore.
It sucks that Australian's are pulled into two US multinational's dispute. News corp should not have the power it has to be able to push garbage like this into a small nation's law.
I am still annoyed at the digital services tax pushing out small players like Pandora. Until we do the 10 year shuffle and force the libs to promote fresh blood to get back in, we will keep seeing more of these short sighted policies.
Empty threat. Don't let the corporations win.
(profanity) Google.
How about (profanity) Newscorp for having our Government by the balls and (profanity) our Government for being such spineless muppets?
Let's extend that by another degree, (profanity) the people who keep voting for Liberals. BuT mUh NeGaTiVe GeArInG!!!
Gotta find a new doctor
It's not going to happen. It is propaganda to scare regular Australians into taking their side.
Sometimes I am so disappointed in the guardian than I question whether I should be reading it at all. But if not the guardian, then what?
Read a proper paper like the Financial Times. Yes you have to pay for it - but it's written for people who really need to know what's going on in the world. You need to look at who the targeted audience are. If you want to read up on complex issues why waste your time with the Guardian?
Besides, I'm bewildered by how right wing it has become.
@WizMuncher: Not the first time I've heard the fin recommended. I won't pay for it though. I realise the flaws in that position.
Is the fin really known for nuanced and relatively bias free analysis or is it more of a "markets are up, ceo is out, etc" rag. I'm equally trying to avoid the type of media that basically spruiks market trends until they become self-fulfilling prophecies.
@ozbjunkie: Don't let the 'Financial' put you off. It's known for the highest standards of journalism. You might get the occasional opinion piece, but they are written by experts in the field.
As I said, the targeted audience don't want the wool pulled over their eyes. It's more that FT lays all the factual data out in front of you, and you make the decision.
@WizMuncher: 'The FT is focused on ‘Financial’ news - which essentially means it’s focussed on events which impact, in some way or another, the financial services industry - essentially Wall Street and the City of London.
In the last 25 years - since it’s last major reorganisation - it’s increasingly become a defender of the financial services industry. So, for example, since 2007- financial crash, it has gone to considerable lengths to deny that there was really any wrong doing, or that the US & UK governments protected the financial services industry from legal threats.
It is less than credible on the financial services sector as it does act as rather determined fanboy.'
Online view
I don't read it because England since the paper was sold has gone discernibly mad. An ongoing 4,000 dead per day being an indicator of that madness….
I don't mean to reference the guardian. It was late at night and I just used the first search result I got haha
Ask Bing
Gonna end up the monopoly of search engine, all lther search engines yahoo Bing duckduckgo will gain back their popularity shares rise up.
Google will start to loose employees and eventually start cutting other google services
Like Google refusing to serve Aussie people.At end people with vpns and add blockers see no change in difference
The laws apply to all search engines. Not just google
Best way to think about this whole thing…
would the media company argument stand up in court?
Strip away the government lobbying, the politicians grabbing headlines, and Google tantrums, and the arguments that Google should pay just don't stand up.
As some people have pointed out, you can almost see Gerry Harvey getting ready to do the same thing if the 'news' argument wins.
Back to Netscape, Altavista and MySpace for everyone 😁
I'm optimistic about all this. I hope google is ordered to pay, thus no longer links Aussie news, leading to less access to Murdoch media throughout Australia and a general increase in IQ and a decrease in insufferable idiocy.
The Australian government has caused a trillion dollar deficit and now they think by taxing a a few trillion dollar companies, will help get some tax revenue but the truth is, it won't work, and your great-grandchildren may still be paying this monstrosity of a debt we are in now.
Being that Australia has a fiat currency, the old canard about a deficit being like a household debt balanced over a kitchen table really is wearing thin.
In fact a surplus is a waste of opportunity. The same way keeping a million dollars under your bed would be.
interest rates are 0, debt for the Govt is literally nothing.
Governments doesn’t have to collect taxes to keep the economy going. The covid airdrops shows they’re more than happy to add a few more 0s to their budget on a whim.
Does anyone remember how the liberals changed the media ownership rules so Channel 10 could get stolen by Murdoch. It was so blatant it was sickening. But then CBS just swooped in and picked it up from under their noses.
And it is sickening how in lockstep the libs are with Murdoch - he says jump, they say how high?
What in methlehem has this got to do with OP?!?!
Because there is a large consensus here that Murdoch is behind this legislation.
Ch10 is still Fox-Lite — just look at their content and news bias.
BFF Bruce Gordon still flogs overpriced Crawfords box sets as he lives it up in Bermuda. The ads run mostly on 10/WIN network.
And the Global Shop Direct muppets sell Aliexpress goods at 200-500% markup, also mostly on 10/WIN.
Time for the return of Ask Jeeves!
They blacklist and shadow ban us when we try to access Google services with a VPN, just like Chinese.
They won't leave.
I don't know, Ask Jeeves
I would say too bad so sad. It’s be a good thing for aussies because it’s one less company mining our data. That being said, it’s an empty threat, we are far too easy pickings for them.
interestingly, Google signed a deal with French news orgs to pay for usage… https://techcrunch.com/2021/01/21/google-inks-agreement-in-f…
So, in short, the precedent is set - as much as they may pout and cry about how unfair it all is, they have signed up in the EU, they will sign up here.
The EU is a much bigger sandbox.
The Australian government is playing chicken with the big boys (CN, tech) in hope that something will stick. What they should be doing is slow down, sit down, take a deep breath and rethink their approach.
true - but a precedent of some sort has been set.
And to be honest, revenue of over $4billion (all be it 'US billion' not "real billions" ;) is not to be sneezed at - especially when they are then able to get away with a mere $59 million in tax - so, about 1.5% tax rate.
they're doin' ok out of Australia.
edit: values are 'aussie dollars'
Tax rate is taxes / profit, not taxes / revenue.
thanks mate.
Peeps switch and start using www.startpage.com. Find it gives just as good search results or use
Or www.bing.com
Or etc,…
Not big loss
Who does Startpage (clue: Google) and Duck get their results from?
Google isn’t best search engine because there aren’t any alternatives (Yandex, Baidu, Bing), but because, on balance, theirs is best at returning most pertinent results.
The challenge isn’t to build a crawler, but what to do with it.
DuckDuckGo
It uses Google's results
Does it mean it will stop working if Google shut the valve?
Possibly, or not return as effective results.
As much as I despise our major media companies for allowing opinion and tribalism to creep into their news, pushing populism and dismissing accountability and transparency, the alternative is far worse. The US is flooded with sites pushing blatant lies and conspiracy theories, many with huge customer bases, and in time so will Australia. Whatever we do, we need to manage that future as best we can lest we fall into a chaos of misinformation where people try to overthrow elected government based on falsehoods. A good start is for us citizens to actively consume a diverse variety of news. My 2 bits.
Once the jewel in Telstra’s crown, according to some mariachi.