Other Party Insurance Says It Is My Fault, I Do Not Think It Is. Please Advise

Lbunkr on 29/04/2020 - 13:59
Last edited 13/05/2020 - 16:03

Edit 3: Thank you guys. The other party's insurance resolved the case in my favour. I had asked for a review of their original decision. I got a call today morning. Thanks heaps

I was recently involved in a car accident. I have a 3rd party insurance.

I do no believe it is my fault, and hence my insurance company told me to deal directly with other driver's insurance company. I submitted my version and diagram letter and the dashcam footage.

My version:

  1. I was turning right on green arrow from Great Western Highway into Cumberland Highway.
  2. Other vehicle was travelling on Great Western Highway in opposite direction to me. It was intending to turn left into Cumberland Highway.
  3. Other vehicle had to obey the traffic sign "Turn Left at any time with care" and had to give way.
  4. I had the right of the way into Cumberland Highway. However, the other vehicle did not stop and crashed into my car.
  5. The front right side of the other vehicle crashed into the front left side of my car.

https://imgur.com/a/Ui0OqQk
I am Car A in above diagram.

Now the other party's insurance has come back to me and tells me that they think I am at fault - when I do not think I am.

This is my first rodeo and I do not know what to do. My question to you fine gentlemen and ladies is:
1) Do you think I am at fault
2) How do I approach this? Do I stand firm with other party's insurance that I do not agree. Will I need to file a claim through the court (if you agree with my view that I am not at fault).

PS: I have the video footage, not sure if I can share the youtube link here, given it is an ongoing matter.

Edit: The video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSjTJfxkmas

Edit 2: Thank you all for your helpful comments and suggestions, specially on how to deal with this situation. I will have a chat with other party's insurance and see if we can resolve it amicably. If not, I will take up the escalation mechanism suggested by many of you, including either going to AFCa or going to the court of law.

Automotive Car Insurance Insurance

Comments

        • [Deactivated] on 30/04/2020 - 07:18

          The default position is that no one has to pay until they are proven to be at fault.

          Your insurance will not pay unless the other party can prove fault. Your insurer doesn't have to prove innocence.

          Third party insurance would have fulfilled their obligation at this point. They will not pursue for damages.

    • k-rokfm on 29/04/2020 - 14:36
      +18

      Quality too good, couldnt understand

  • Digitalco on 29/04/2020 - 14:15
    +1

    straight forward answer they are at fault Car B

  • MagicMushroom on 29/04/2020 - 14:21
    +20

    Better diagram than MS paint. Mindblown.

    • MS Paint on 29/04/2020 - 14:26
      +19

      Agree

    • [Deactivated] on 29/04/2020 - 14:53
      +1

      Better production value than some B grade movies.

  • Almost Banned on 29/04/2020 - 14:29
    +38

    Wow OP, you should offer your diagrammatical services to other car insurance questioners on Ozbargain - you could make a fortune!

    • bunkr on 29/04/2020 - 14:58
      +1

      haha

  • gmail92 on 29/04/2020 - 14:54
    +5

    give us the foooootage

  • mr-incredulous on 29/04/2020 - 15:05

    Google Maps for reference
    OP got some of the lanes a little bit wrong. There are actually 2 right-turn lanes where he/she turned from, though that doesn't change the fact that Car B is at fault.

  • [Deactivated] on 29/04/2020 - 15:09

    Would need to see video, what if Car B was merging in front/ahead of Op? And Op didn't let them in?

  • toniyellow on 29/04/2020 - 15:13
    +6

    https://mva.financialrights.org.au/
    is a great very useful website with factsheets and templates

    You seem to be at this stage

    If the other party denies your version of events or continues to deny liability then you are in a dispute about fault.
    https://mva.financialrights.org.au/dtop/im-not-insured-the-o…

    • bunkr on 29/04/2020 - 15:15
      +1

      Thank you. This is useful.

      • thatonethere on 29/04/2020 - 18:06
        +2

        Get a quote and send letter of demand. They will hassle their insurance to "make them go away".

    • bunkr on 29/04/2020 - 15:15
      +2

      No, we were there at the same time. I didn't know until the last moment that they will not stop at the give way sign.

    • FTTNope on 29/04/2020 - 15:45
      +9

      It's not a merge lane. OP has right of way.

    • No ONE on 29/04/2020 - 20:07
      +4

      Or you could have shut up and go back to driver knowledge test.

    • xers on 29/04/2020 - 20:34
      +6

      What a stupid comment. Get off the road ffs

    • Nivlac on 29/04/2020 - 22:36
      +1

      Pls do everyone a favour, don't drive.
      Or ride a bike even, for your sake.

    • berry580 on 29/04/2020 - 23:50

      You drunk bob?

  • Davo1111 on 29/04/2020 - 15:15

    I'd pass it to my insurer to deal with.

    I wouldnt give any of the other information other than they turned out of an intersection with "turn left with care" and hit another vehicle.

    • [Deactivated] on 29/04/2020 - 15:17

      third party out of luck, if you have read its been said plenty of times.

      • Davo1111 on 29/04/2020 - 15:19

        i read it, was just emphasising what i'd do.

        Still, i wouldnt be giving any other information with the potential to incriminate yourself. other than they colided with a car after ignoring a turn left with care sign

        • [Deactivated] on 29/04/2020 - 15:21

          So you think their insurer will help them with only third party?

          • Davo1111 on 29/04/2020 - 15:27
            +1

            @[Deactivated]: as far as i can see, they have no obligation to deal with OP until it goes to court.

            feel free to correct me though

          • kerfuffle on 29/04/2020 - 17:35

            @[Deactivated]: Some might with up to $5000 of damages paid out I think; OP needs to read the PDS. I can't verify for sure as I have comprehensive insurance, but I know it's a thing for some third party property policies

            • mrcherry on 29/04/2020 - 19:15
              +1

              @kerfuffle: The $5000 you are talking about is in the event that the other party to the collision does not have insurance of their own. As they have already made a claim this is not the case.

  • carlJack on 29/04/2020 - 15:17
    +2

    upload the footage

  • vinni9284 on 29/04/2020 - 15:23
    -7

    It's common practice that the Insurance company of the fully (comp) insured driver will not pay/or will try to get out of paying the damages to a 3rd party insurer as they are aware that (3rd party) will need funds to fight them in court and most likely wont follow through.
    Even if it's fault of the comp insured.
    Typical insurance dirty tactics IMO

    • ankor on 29/04/2020 - 20:22

      No it's not. I've worked in insurance and that was definitely not the case.

      • gimme on 29/04/2020 - 20:28
        +3

        This is the internet. Common practice = I just pulled it out of my …

        • vinni9284 on 29/04/2020 - 20:57
          -2

          So you're telling me that insurance companies are all honest?

          • gimme on 29/04/2020 - 21:15
            +2

            @vinni9284: No I'm telling you your statement about common practice is not based on anything other than your opinion. Common practice implies some actual knowledge of facts which I'm certain you don't have.

            • vinni9284 on 29/04/2020 - 21:20
              -2

              @gimme: Lol. Google, product reviews on insurance companies and you'll have tons of references.
              You're pulling comments out of your ….

              • gimme on 29/04/2020 - 21:26
                +1

                @vinni9284: lol productreviews, case closed. Yup by that logic you should never use any courier or indurance company or bank or airline …

                • vinni9284 on 29/04/2020 - 21:34

                  @gimme: No. You get comprehensive insurance and not 3rd party as per my previous opinion.

              • ankor on 01/05/2020 - 08:45

                @vinni9284: The whole health insurance, tpd, superannuation and junk insurance sales arm is an entirely separate kettle of fish.

                People would commonly buy vehicles and then take out a loan that, over the course of it, was effectively 1.2-1.5x the value of the car. Like w.t.f.

                There is definitely a lot of unethical behaviour by insurers and had the most recent Royal Commission not had its balls cut off, we'd have seen a lot more light shed on those dark corners.

            • vinni9284 on 30/04/2020 - 09:35

              @gimme: https://www.smh.com.au/interactive/2016/comminsure-exposed/t…

              Here's a great example of malpractices/common practices that is not from productreview.

              It's not car insurance, however this insurance company insures cars too.

              Oh ..yes! They're very honest.

      • vinni9284 on 29/04/2020 - 20:57
        -1

        Considering that your not working for insurance anymore… in your opinion, has your previous insurance employer ever denied a justifiable claim solely based on they can get away with it?

        • ankor on 30/04/2020 - 01:47

          If it's denied incorrectly then it's a mistake. That mistake is reviewable by asking for an internal review, dispute resolution or going to the financial ombudsman service, or court.

          So the process at my work was all about deciding a claim based on the road rules and the facts. That's what we were taught and there was no bs as you allege with uninsured people.

          The biggest problem we had was with those bottom feeding hire car companies that charged a fortune for a car rental.

          • vinni9284 on 30/04/2020 - 09:22

            @ankor: Do you mind me asking you what's the name of the insurance company you have worked for?

            • ankor on 30/04/2020 - 18:55

              @vinni9284: It's simply not relevant because all insurers in Australia must adhere to various rules, regulations and codes of conduct.

              • vinni9284 on 30/04/2020 - 18:58

                @ankor: Fair enough. I just wanted to know as I wanted to be insured by them.

                • ankor on 01/05/2020 - 09:03

                  @vinni9284: Nah, I won't be advertising for my old workplace lol

  • iknowtj on 29/04/2020 - 15:33

    Gonna need footage on this one.

    No issues despite it being ongoing.

    • FTTNope on 29/04/2020 - 15:48
      +3

      Footage not required, perfectly clear that OP is not at fault. Car B is turning out of a slip lane and is required to give way to oncoming traffic.

      • iknowtj on 29/04/2020 - 16:01
        +1

        Agree, but I just want to see it anyhow.

        • FTTNope on 29/04/2020 - 16:01

          Fair haha

  • RM on 29/04/2020 - 15:41
    +3

    Where is the poll? These types of posts always miss one key element..

    Car B at fault..

  • theHMASfriendship on 29/04/2020 - 16:12
    +17

    Props for the paint diagram so I'll give a helpful answer

    I was in a similar situation back in uni (3rd party, not at fault but the other vehicle's insurance decided it was "50/50" blame and for each party to pay their own repair costs).

    I lodged a QCAT claim against the other driver after getting nowhere with his insurance company. The insurance company rang me later that week (I'd say immediately after the guy received his notice to attend mediation/arbitration) saying they decided their guy was at fault and they would pay for repairs.

    So I suggest following this path with small claims in NSW. Even the threat of going to arbitration may prompt some action. The insurance even paid me the QCAT lodgement fee.

    It worked so well that when the driver still hadn't paid the excess after a few weeks (and weren't going to pay me until it was received), I mentioned to the insurance company on the phone that I was sick of waiting and would be submitting another QCAT claim. Received payment within a week.

    • kerfuffle on 29/04/2020 - 17:36
      +9

      Maybe OP needed to turn left into the next street.

        • nomoneynoproblems on 30/04/2020 - 08:38
          +2

          Or how about give way like they should have.

            • Pry on 30/04/2020 - 09:59
              +5

              @stirlo: What are you on mate, it's not rude. It's perfectly legal and acceptable.

        • [Deactivated] on 03/05/2020 - 01:14

          What! So turn right into the rightmost lane to allow the other car to move into the left lane, then proceed to tear across them to make the next left. That's not polite, that's asking for an accident that this time you'll be responsible for.

  • onetwothreefour on 29/04/2020 - 16:21

    Video or it didn't happen!

  • Godric on 29/04/2020 - 16:25

    Poor quality MS Paint diagrams only pls

  • Ughhh on 29/04/2020 - 16:35
    +7

    The other cars at fault. Though it seems like the other parties insurance is basically 'bullying' you because you don't have a company/legal team to fight for you.
    Another pro vs con with comprehensive vs third party.

    • tastycheeks on 29/04/2020 - 17:28

      does the company help fight for you only if you have comprehensive?

      • Ughhh on 29/04/2020 - 17:41
        +1

        If your insurance company believes you are not at fault, they'll just say ok and send you to a repair shop (or preferred shop depending on which insurance company). No excess and you wont ever have to see, hear or talk to the other party, because you won't need to do the chasing the OP has to do.

        Not all insurance claim policy procedures are the same, so read the PDS. I strongly suggest you read up on the differences between comprehensive vs third party now, rather than later if you're ever unlucky enough to be in OP situation.

    • foxinsox8 on 01/05/2020 - 10:50
      -4

      Wrong.

      https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/safety-rules/road-rules/int…

      Left turns can be made into any lane. Right turns have to maintain the same lane. Read the manual. See the diagram. It's clear. It's the law.

      • Ughhh on 01/05/2020 - 11:29

        Could at least link a working correct page.

      • viper8548 on 01/05/2020 - 18:24

        This is one lane turning right into multiple lanes, you can choose any lanes, the car turning left need to give way at all times. If it’s a multi line right turn with marked lines then you need to stay in your lane.

  • OzCheapo on 29/04/2020 - 16:36

    Please let us know if your insurance is well known. But Car B is at fault. As said above, kudos to the great drawing!

  • [Deactivated] on 29/04/2020 - 16:51
    +1

    Car B at fault. You need to be firm and hold your ground. Threaten legal action and follow with your threat, if need be.

    Ps: Op is probably wondering why everyone is complimenting him on his drawing. It's just a thing here, Op. You'll get it if you stick around long enough.

  • Mike88 on 29/04/2020 - 17:15

    Car B is clearly at fault but can't imagine how you didn't see this coming.
    At the speeds you would likely be going after both taking corners the crash was probably avoidable if at least one car was observing their surroundings.

    • Mokr on 30/04/2020 - 10:23

      Car B just over turns it looks like its trying to turn into the nearest lane of a three lane road.

      But just over shoots into the middle lane where op was going.

      But I agree if OP was a bit more cautious they should of been able to stop, given its a right angle turn….. Which you normally do pretty slow.

    • foxinsox8 on 01/05/2020 - 10:50
      -4

      wrong

      https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/safety-rules/road-rules/int…

      Left turns can be made into any lane. Right turns have to maintain the same lane. Read the manual. See the diagram. It's clear. It's the law.

      • [Deactivated] on 03/05/2020 - 01:17
        +1

        Putting aside the fact that all your posts are wrong, it's even more amazing that you're claiming both cars have the right to turn into the right most lane.

  • Brianqpr on 29/04/2020 - 17:33
    +1

    Seems the only way OP's car could be hit is if he's well into the process of completing the right turn before the other car enters the scene, giving OP right of way.

    What grounds is the insurer using to say you are at fault as this looks pretty clear cut?

    • [Deactivated] on 29/04/2020 - 17:56
      +1

      The grounds where OP doesn't have comprehensive insurance and they are hoping he'll give in and pay up, despite not being at fault.

  • sillyguy on 29/04/2020 - 17:52

    Clearly car B is at fault!

    Can you disclose which insurer of car B is, such a scumbag company to even put the blame on you for a black and white case like this!

    • foxinsox8 on 01/05/2020 - 10:51
      -2

      You are wrong he made the left turn with care assuming the OP would obey the law regarding right turns on roads with marked lanes.. OP didn't

      https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/safety-rules/road-rules/int…

      Left turns can be made into any lane. Right turns have to maintain the same lane. Read the manual. See the diagram. It's clear. It's the law.

  • postform on 29/04/2020 - 18:20

    So.. let's say OP takes them to court with a lawyer. And the other party loses. Can OP also sue them to cover for all legal costs + any compensation for time lost at work/distress?

    • CMH on 29/04/2020 - 20:35

      If they're going to do that make sure to include that as part of the lawsuit, instead of tacking it on after.

  • Hret95 on 29/04/2020 - 18:21

    So firstly check your PDS. Some insurers will chase up the other drivers insurance for you if can prove that you weren’t at fault, even if you’re on third party. I believe this is AAMI, NRMA, and someone else.

    Secondly, as someone else said, in NSW, if you’re the only lane turning, you can turn into either lane. I know the intersection you’re talking about, people pull out there all the time.

    This brings me to my third point, the driver pulling out, must firstly do it with care (duh), but they can only do so if they have 2 free lanes of traffic. (Pull out game weak)

    Call them again, be assertive. Find the actual road laws regarding this (sections and codes). If they are still being difficult, lodge a complaint with the ombudsman. They tend to change their attitude real quick.

    Get everything in writing, and phone calls, take down notes and email the relevant assistant that you’ve dealt with for records.

    Good luck. Dealing with insurance is a horrible experience, and they try to bully you into walking away.

    • CMH on 29/04/2020 - 20:35
      +1

      Some insurers will chase up the other drivers insurance for you if can prove that you weren’t at fault, even if you’re on third party.

      Only if the other party is uninsured, and usually only up to a small sum ($5k?)

  • trapper on 29/04/2020 - 18:33
    +2

    You are not at fault.

    Just tell the insurance company that you are not at fault, you had a green light and everything was recorded on your dash cam.

    Also, lets see the video. Please post!

  • lai on 29/04/2020 - 18:35
    +1

    I had a similar experience before. I were not at fault. Exchanged details but refused to get hers insurance.

    I went to garage "not your fault". Explained my situation. He said just leaves it to him.

    Finally, my car repaired and pay nothing.

    Hope it helps.

  • MondaySleeper on 29/04/2020 - 18:43

    You are NOT at fault. Car B has give way sign. Even if you changed line or moved to any line (which legally can), the other party has to wait. Stand firm and question them. Other party insurance is trying to move away from the responsibility.

  • [Deactivated] on 29/04/2020 - 18:46
    +1

    Slip lane has to give way to all traffic, except U turners. End of case. Tell the insurance company to go f themselves.

    • TEER3X on 30/04/2020 - 12:00

      Is this true in Victoria? I pretty much give way to U turners here because they never give way.

      Also, I 100% agree with the OP, car B is at fault. Clear as day.

      • [Deactivated] on 30/04/2020 - 12:11
        +2

        Yes. That's probably because they don't know the rules. A friend of mine is often unable to give way to slip laners when u-turning, because they just sit there and wait for the u-turner.

        https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/safety-and-road-rules/road-r…
        http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr20…

        When making a U-turn you must give way to all other vehicles and pedestrians.

        http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr20…

        (3A) If the driver is turning left using a slip lane, the driver must give way to—
        (a) any vehicle on the road the driver is entering, or turning right at the intersection into the road the driver is entering (except a vehicle making a U-turn at the intersection); and
        (b) any other vehicle or pedestrian on the slip lane.

        • TEER3X on 30/04/2020 - 12:36

          Thanks, it's just that I've had to slam on the brakes so many times to avoid an accident with a U Turner. Not sure if it's a common problem for others too or if it's just my immediate area.

    • twadds on 30/04/2020 - 12:27
      +1

      This is in NSW where it;s illegal to do a U-turn at traffic lights.

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