This is more of a technical question than an invitation to a political argument. :) But with all the talk over the last couple of days about the government FORCING their tracking app onto everyone's phone (since recanted) I was wondering how they would accomplish such a feat. Could they technically install an app on our phones without us knowing about it or will they force us to do it ourselves by using threats?
Cheers
And they justify it by saying it's ok to fine people unnecessarily because people can challenge it if they want.
With that way of thinking, they'll just fine you and you'll have to prove that you had the app running at the time of the fine to get it revoked.
They don't have to force: you can only use public transports/going to restaurants, supermarkets if you have the apps.
Also police can randomly spot check if you have the apps.
Police would need new powers to randomly poke through your phone though.
Also to search for your phone if you don't produce it.
look guys.
if it works anywhere as well as mygov, you have nothing to worry about.
I'm sure Huawei have already got a method all figured out ;)
:P
Wont ever happen. More chance of them having their own software and doing it secretly.
I more disagree with the fact that others who would download and have the app running would then be harvesting data from other nearby devices (mine, other people who do not agree with the app and data collection) which would then be stored (no details on data retention or anything else I've seen) and then used for tracking or contact based stuff.
If its pulling IMEI and or phone number they'd just request that via telco and then they know who to contact.
Why should my data be collected via others who don't think anything of the surveillance taking place?
Wouldn't surprise me if something similar was already in the custom telco roms for phones sold via the major telcos, it'd be easy enough to have something in place even if its not active now.
If they did decide to force it on to devices they'd roll it out via telco channels for saturation.
You can already download a Bluetooth scanner and track ppl. Don't need a government app to help you do this.
The extra data that each party passes to each other (name and phone I believe) is encrypted and can only be read by the government once you send them your data if you get the virus.
Sure you can, I get whats possible however an individual or small group of people don't have the same reach as 40% of the population.
So it becomes involuntary to the remaining who don't on such a large scale, thats what I don't want to be part of.
Similar to how shopping centres were doing the same with wifi\bluetooth and capturing images of faces with advertising boards.
im not sure what you mean but the app only communicates with other phones with the same app. It then only records data of an interaction if you are within 1.5m for 15 minutes or more.
If you don't have the app, you are not involuntarily participating and the app is not storing any data about you or your device.
They can't, but they could do random checks to make sure you have the app running on your phone if you are outside
This app would have to be the icing on top of the Orwellian cake.
I thought Big Brother was cancelled this year.
They renamed it 'Big Bother'
Am I the only one that thinks that this app is a great idea? Like the ones in Korea have been working very well…
Same here but don't let common sense get in the way of the privacy outrage crowd.
If they want more people to use the app they should just pay people to use it.
Most people would be happy to install if they got $10 a day or something.
If it's the Apple and Google initiative that's going to get pushed onto our phone anyway, I'll use it.
https://www.macrumors.com/2020/04/10/apple-google-covid-19-c…
If it's a separate application from the Federal Government, then forget it.
From the Singapore version that the Australian app is based on:
"One common challenge that Bluetooth contact tracing solutions currently face, is ensuring that the apps continue to scan and perform handshakes with other contact tracing app users, especially on iOS devices. iPhone users need to make sure that the TraceTogether app is in the foreground for it to work best. If it is in the background, even if Bluetooth is on, TraceTogether is unable to scan for other TraceTogether phones. This is a design characteristic of iOS devices to improve battery life.
To help users keep the app running in the foreground while minimising battery usage, the TraceTogether team included a power saver mode setting in the codebase. If you are an iPhone user, all you have to do is keep TraceTogether open but place the phone upside down in your pocket or face down on the table. That will trigger the power saver mode, allowing the app to regularly scan the environment for other TraceTogether users."
The app should come with a free Romoss.
This is something that most people don’t know.
You can’t make an app for an iPhone that will be always broadcasting data via Bluetooth non-stop. As an app developer for iOS, I can say with 100% confidence that you can’t.
You can only do that when the app is running and for a very limited time when in background.
For this to work, they will need to implement Contact Tracing framework from Apple and Google which is designed specifically for the government apps to allow that kind of broadcasting.
BUT this framework is not available yet and I have never heard from the Australian government that they will use that framework. They only promised to deliver the app in 1-2 weeks which given the government’s poor IT record is highly unlikely.
It's really a mess given the recent policy of OS suppliers to dump support for older phones, or with Windows Phone, all their phones. I can imagine a rushed covid related OS release on newer phones, but this last year has been carnage on OS legacy support. Even SSL got forcibly forever broken on many quite capable devices due just to support. There is just no way a government can demand a user has a particular OS version when the phones aren't supported by the OS. I'm not sure IOS works on 40% of sold Apple devices these days, as they have been unsupporting devices aggressively.
“without adhering to the Apple and Google API, a contact tracing app won't be able to access Bluetooth when it's running in the background, and would only work when the app was open and the phone unlocked.
Similar limitations have been demonstrated in Singapore's contact tracing app, TraceTogether, which requires the user to leave their phone unlocked to work properly. The app has a three-star rating on the App Store and has been installed by just 12 percent of the country's population.”
So unless the Aus Gov waits for the Apple/Google Api framework for this to work properly, any app made or released before then will be severely limited.
Aren’t there any private APIs that you are not aware of ?
You can't use private APIs for iOS apps (that are published on the App Store).
Don’t know about the technical aspect. But they could just say if you don’t download it, without justification you don’t get any Government assistance.
Yep! If they made it a condition of receiving job keeper/job seeker/new start they would have a lot of people using it. Wouldn’t be a popular move though
I don't get a cent anyway
Me Either. On the plus side I still have my job and therefore I can pay my
Mortgage and keep my house.
Download the app and leave the device at home when going out.
Govt could make the App ‘near mandatory’ by only allowing access to reopened public places, like restaurants, cafes (maybe supermarkets, but these are more complex as food is essential), etc for those using the App. The App is intended as part of reopening the economy, so this would be a reasonable compromise. Restaurants could only open for table service if they had either a Bluetooth scanner checking customers on entry for a working App, or a manual check of phones (like an id check entering a licensed club)
It would be very difficult under the law in Australia. We don’t live in that kind of country. For example it’s hard not to use the ATO website to do your tax yourself but it’s still possible to get a paper form if you must. The app will be optional. Simple as that
We don't what about the anti encryption law?
Did someone say U2 album?
I was thinking that, as well.
Similar but not the same thing.
I know 🙄
It just clicked for me ( I’m slow). It will never be mandatory, and most of us will download it.
Once restrictions ease, you want to go interstate? No problem, show recent testing that you don’t have the lurgy or have the app.
Going back to work? Same
Etc etc.
Completely optional, completely necessary.
The government could make it compulsory as a part of the Telecommunications Act or some auspices under Department of Home Affairs that providers or even manufacturers include a cloaked version to be installed during updates or when a phone pings a signal tower (probably showing the limits of my tech knowledge with the second one lol). If the government wants to go ahead and do something because "it's for peoples' own good" then they have pretty much any legislation they like at their fingertips which can be quietly amended (retrospectively if need be) and then expanded and updated to suit their requirements any time they like or they can make the legislation so vague as to be virtually limitless by its own definitions (or lack of them). In this case, as it is a matter of public health and given there are already legal consequences for not adhering to rules regarding quarantine, gathering numbers etc, it would be easy enough to leverage the various networks and manufacturers to get on board if they'd like to continue to operate in the country and receive the current tax breaks and concessions they probably get, not to mention things like government contracts. wouldn't take much arm twisting I would imagine. There are always ways and means.
Bills have to pass both houses. Good luck getting bipartisan support for mass surveillance.
They seem to work in lockstep on other globalist agenda items (bank bail in legislation, the cash ban bill, metadata laws, pay rises for politicians etc) so I don't think this will be a problem for them and we so far way from the next federal election that most people will have forgotten about it by then anyway.
Even some Liberal MP’s are against it - can’t see it been made mandatory.
https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/mps-refuse-to-dow…
Although agreeing with Barnaby Joyce on a issue is making me question my position.
forced.. lol
im sure the dinosaur politicians dont really understand how tech works, there is no forcing anything even if it was under %40 uptake, they talking out of their @ss
The fact that that it was implied that it was going to be forced on us was the reason I will not be downloading it anymore. I was genuinely considering it but after the CMO didnt rule out mandatory compliance straight away, there's no way im trusting them now
They have made it clear that the tracking app is optional
However if you want freedom of movement you must have the app running on your phone.
Otherwise you will be stuck at home.
Your choice - but both aint good Im afraid
Doesn't that make it compulsory then? If you do not accept our tracking software then you cannot enjoy the basic human right of freedom of movement and freedom of association?
This is Australia, our only right is compulsory voting. Human Rights & Freedoms? They're at the whim of the govt of the day.
But back to your point, it's the illusion of choice. If certain sections of the media get onboard, then the public will generally roll over. They can just say sure if you don't have the app, you can only go to the supermarket between 6-7am and 7-8pm, you can't be in groups of more then 5, you Can't goto the footy, the cinema, etc
It's classic Govt choice, either option A, the one we want you to chose or option B, the one you'll never chose. The choice is yours. Its like the immunization
Anyway we'll see. Maybe they'll just
Seems like they got to you before the end of your last sentence.
So all those above claiming Apple would never roll this out. I'm afraid they're baking contact tracing by bluetooth into the next IOS update in mid May (Google via Play Store update)
https://techcrunch.com/2020/04/13/apple-google-coronavirus-t…
So it looks like they're initially just rolling out the framework to enable apps to utilise it.
If anyone wants to hear the technical details of how it'll work, have a listen to the Steve Gibson Security Now podcast (ep #762, 15 Apr 2020) starting at the 1hr 19min mark.
https://www.grc.com/securitynow.htm
I like their approach of sending out the tracing ID numbers during the potential infection period to your phone to check against its local DB about whether you've been in contact. Whilst I can think of potential govt abuses (such as having Bluetooth data collection points around the land), its a pretty good system that keeps most of your info away from them (they already collect way too much).
As I mentioned before, I'd be happy for a system which has my phone collecting the data & alerting me if I might have been in contact with someone who tested positive.
From a technical stand point to enforce this they would have to do a bit of privacy busting things. Off the top of my head:
Be able to get a list of mobile numbers from phone operators, correlate that with a list of numbers that have installed the app. Send police door knocking to check who hasn't install the app. Large amount of false positives would come from people who can't install the app (no app store account or no smart phone)
Do the same but get a list of phone numbers from Google or Apple (unsure if American companies would comply). Would miss out anyone with a non-Google or Apple smartphone though.
Force Google & Apple to install the apps. Google & Apple would have the capability, but again probably would not comply.
Having the app installed is one part of the equation. They would then have to:
Enforce keeping your BlueTooth connection on your phone switched on
Making sure the app has access to BlueTooth
Making sure the app is running in the background while the phone is in your pocket
(all easy options to turn off/on with android, and probably iphone too).
Why would they need a phone#?
Having the app installed is one part of the equation. They would then have to…
If its baked into the OS, then you have no control to turn those things off.
Why would they need a phone#?
Was just thinking of ways the government could enforce the installation of an app. If the app reports back to them your phone number, and they have a list of all AU phone numbers, they would know what numbers have not installed the app and then they could go after them.
If its baked into the OS, then you have no control to turn those things off.
Indeed, however the question was how could a government enforce the installation of an app.
Scary days if the gov starts forcing its own software into an OS. I'd probably switch back to custom ROMs if that were the case.
Depends on what new and exciting powers govt\police\security have or can be granted under these enhanced state of emergency or lock-down situations allow.
They'd just take their app (the one used by the Singaporeans, who are known to be very interested in everything their residents do) to telco's and say, all new phones must have this app baked in to the OS, sitting hidden or deactivated until we want it to or live and running but baked in with no option to turn it off. Phones that are already out there with updates are available include it in the next firmware\OS\Security patch via OTA update in the same way.
Just because the phone setting shows "off" for something (mic, camera, gps) doesn't mean its really off.
Clearly they can see if they have 40% of the population with this app on their phone (by force or not) they can then get more than enough data back.
how could a government enforce the installation of an app.
They could compel companies to roll it out, but they ouldn’t as there’d be too much backlash.
If they had too, they’d just have a mixture of carrot & stick approach. They could just offer $10 cash to everyone to install it (hell $2, given the +ve votes on the ShopBack post today). Or as I said previously, they could just give extra privileges to those who can show they’ve installed it. E.g. you get to go to the shops any time, you get to go to a cafe, a movie, the footy, travel outside your suburb etc. Or more stick approach of requiring at least one adult in a group to have the app installed on their phone when going outside, with police searches.
Like the govt requiring ISPs to block pirating sites (via DNS), it’ll be easer for people to circumvent if they really want to, but they just need around 60-70% compliance for it to work fairly effectively.
IMHO they’ll go with the optional install initially, see how it goes. If it’s still required, they’ll add some carrot approaches such as you need the app to use a cafe, etc it’s the onus on the cafe checking & large fines for customers & owners who breach. People will grumble, but I suspect they’ll follow as they want to get out & socialise again and it shouldn’t be too hard of a sell to say it’s in everyone’s best interest. If they use the Apple/Google approach of alerting the user that they should be tested, rather then the Govt the you need to be tested, that might ease some privacy concerns. Better still if the Govt can convince Apple/Google/Facebook/etc to do all the dirty work, they’re so much better at tracking & enticing people to give up their data.
I have very little faith that the Govt (well Home Affairs agencies) won’t start trying to exploit this (either with a black door, or grabbing the data).
Can someone explain how the app would/could/might actually work? Let’s assume you have the app on your phone (by choice or force) and you catch the virus - then what? How and by whom is the app’s ‘home base’ informed that the person who owns this phone (ie you) is infected? Is this your responsibility? What if you’re too ill to use your phone? Or is it your doctors’ responsibility? How would they do this? Would it really be possible for your anonymity to still be maintained? And the identity of those with whom you regularly associate?
Another scenario: What if you’re a sociopath/psychopath/assh*le (there’s plenty among us) and despite being infected and ‘home base’ now knowing that whoever is carrying this/your phone is infected, you continue to mix in public and catch public transport, etc, and leave a trail of infected people in your wake… is the govt saying that it will still be impossible for Bio Security, the AFP, regular coppers, plus ScoMo to hunt you down and lock you up in quarantine because your identity is unknown?
I’m sure all of the above plus a lot, lot more will be fully explained in the 10,000-word tiny print of the apps privacy policy to appease any concerns we might have, and which most of us will automatically and heedlessly approve before the app is activated.
It uses bluetooth. If your phone is in close proximity to another phone the two phone will exchange data with one another by recording each others unique ID. If you become infected Doctors will have a list of phones that your phone was in close proximity to
How many tin foil hatter's are in this thread…
Not enough.
Just because you are paranoid doesn’t mean they aren’t out to get you.
Technically they cannot unless Apple, Google and all Telcos were forced to enable new functionality to allow apps to be installed by force on our phones and impossible to delete.
Would most likely also require a phone update to a new operating system version as well.
No way Apple would allow this, as for the others, maybe. But this kind of thing would take a long time, which would defeat the purpose.
I would presume the Govt will just have to accept the number of people that choose to download the app. Or maybe find some kind of incentives to try to influence/force more people, such as if you don't have the app you cannot enter a train or bus or certain buildings (like is the case now in China). But this takes time to implement as well.
With the way the government-tendered software development is in this country, I doubt they could even develop a working app, much less somehow find a way to "force" it onto people's phones.
App gets rolled out, within half a day the registration server falls over due to load and the government claims someone DDOS'd it.
Then back tracks the next day haha
Those of us old enough to grow up without mobiles will just leave their mobile at home if forced to have the app. After 2 weeks of leaving your phone at home will completely stuff the government plans.
I hate mobile phones on me all the time but the bank codes have forced me nowadays to have one permanently on !
So get a burner phone?
Guess Aussies are either criminals or have something to hide. If you're not in one of these categories, what do you have to hide?
OK, so me a few mates will be at your place around lunch time, We'll go through all your drawers and personal items, emails and social media posts and question your family on your whereabouts. No problem right? It seems like personal privacy isn't an issue for you. After all, if you're 'not a criminal' what do you have to hide?
(Also, I get to decide what constitutes a 'crime' and you get NO say in it.)
I hate the whole "what's the problem I've got nothing to hide" argument. Cool unlock your doors and give me your passwords and I'll be right over to rummage through your shit.
I wouldn't let someone do this unless there is something to be gained. For the right price and assurance I'd say yes, and the fact I have nothing to hide means I'd probably have a relatively low price.
The default should always be to protect privacy, because privacy has value. But how much value needs to be weighted against what can be gained for giving some of it away.
Personally my location data isn't that sensitive, and I have relatively high trust in the Australian government, so yes I'm willing to trade this away with limits for better public health outcomes.
My only requirement is they disclose what information is tracked by the app, if it is location data, I have no issues.
What is the big deal here btw? Law enforcement have been using ankle monitors for long time. Using an app instead, you're saving cost for maintaining such physical devices. Also if you're been tested positive for this damned disease it's your duty as a responsible citizen to help contain it.
And you've had to have done something for them to put the ankle monitor on you.
Law enforcement have been using ankle monitors for long time.
Yes. On criminals.
I'm not a criminal. I don't expect to be treated like one, in fact, I'm generally upset if I am.
You may not be a criminal. But failing to adhere to the protocol will
make you a criminal. Thats where the data from
monitor or app comes in. If you don’t break protocol what difference does it make?
You should read about how some other country’s measures to contain the virus. Compared to those, this is like pat on the back.
So they make a law that treats me as if I have commited a crime. If I fail to abide, then I have commited a crime so they can rightfully treat me like a criminal.
So either way, it's okay to treat me like a criminal.
@[Deactivated]: I just don’t know what to say except I’m sorry you feel that way and sorry if you feel offended.
We as individuals may feel and act responsibly but it’s not the same with everyone else so certain measures need to be put in place. I happened to see two local news articles just today about irresponsible behaviour resulted in fines from 2 richer suburbs (vic / nsw).
Interesting to know whats your take on speed cameras on road or cctv cameras in buildings… :-)
Interesting to know whats your take on speed cameras on road or cctv cameras in buildings… :-)
I don't own the road, I don't own the buildings.
I own my phone.
We don’t live in other countries. Many Australians still values human rights and liberties.
Some of you are so dramatic.
Don't get me wrong, I probably wouldn't want to install this app, and I can see it being ripe for exploit. The police are probably rubbing their hands together already preparing to use it to load up fines for breaching isolation. Once they realise it can be used for crime investigation, all hell will break loose.
But even so - people saying they will switch to a dumb phone, or leave their phone at home? Wow. You guys are crazy.
I'd sooner email my daily itinerary direct to MyGov every morning before I give up my iPhone.
Meh I tend to leave mine in the car if I'm out anyway. I'll keep doing that and hope to hell they don't start raising revenue on that basis. It's too much like the modern equivalent of pulled over and asked to 'show your papers'. :)
I will never let fascism ever run in my country.
I will never let our government to take control of what we think or what we do. Its their first steps to take control.
I will just put my smart phone in a safe place or take an old phone when going shopping if it’s enforced and will tell them i dont have a phone capble of using the app.
If im caught and i got fined i will not pay the fine. If they take me to court i will still refuse to pay the fine. If they put me in prison i will go on hunger strike. I will not let them take away my freedom. Even if it means my death.
I share the same sentiment but I'd probably get to the part where they take me to court and I'll just move to a different country.
Know any good ones?
push notification
Many people already have detailed tracking installed and running and probably just aren't aware of it. For those with Android devices - https://www.google.com/maps/timeline
Yeah I switched mine off a few years back. Doesn't mean they can;t track me but at least when I go to your link is has no location history. :)
Even if you don't install an app, you can be guaranteed the government has access to similar tech used (and and likely developed) by countries like Israel for counter-terrorism and digital tracking purposes.
Your local westfield shopping centre employs tech that can track your movement from the minute you enter the car park using numberplate recognition - followed by wifi and bluetooth fingerprinting - and they team up with retailers for credit card transaction data. iPhone 11 has the U1 location tracking chip activated by default as well. The above is just stuff that comes stock standard as part of your smart phone. Combine that with all the stupid apps most people install, and any chance of privacy becomes increasingly difficult. … we haven't even mentioned facial recognition.
Swap your number plate when you enter, but the boom gate will be the problem.
More information now available:
From an OZBer's point of view, one annoyance is that bluetooth needs to be turned on all the time. My phone has lousy battery life so bluetooth is only turned on when required. It also doesn't work well for people leave their phones in their cars or not carrying their phones (when phones are being charged).
And what if they expand their terms of reference later on? What if you were in a restaurant and spent a few minutes within the proscribed distance of someone who has a conviction? Will you then become a suspect or go onto a 'watch list'?
Well, we know multiple issues with this type of apps. One of them being that for those who are committing adultery, better not catch Covid-19, otherwise….
Your spouse might want you to install the app. Free spying on you.
After this virus has subsided facial recognition will definitely be the new norm very soon.
I feel like things like September 11, strong new lock downs at airports, and now this?
Sadly the fraud in the financial sector didn't make a huge debt in Australia,only fixed corruption.
But this will motivate every country to in force facial recognition type technology, as the virus has given a licence to print your face now.
Hope not, hope life returns and all attention turns into tracking the ccp corruption and not us.
The Australian govt can't force an app onto your phone. There isn't a technical way they could do it.
This is why they are saying that they aren't going to force you to do it. How would they police it? How would they know whether a phone had the app on it? What if your phone isn't one of the common two types? What if your phone is too old to run the app? They can't do it and that is why they are saying that.
The media need an angle for this story and they are going with privacy and that is why they are creating hype with saying the govt will force you. Don't be sucked into a media cash grab.
Apple and Google however CAN force apps onto your phone when they do an update. They wil certainly force the API onto your phone during a firmware update. They have said it will be optional but both of these parties DO have the ability to force this to be turned on for everyone if they want. I would want proof that they haven't. They could do it and noone would know. Don't just think it is as simple as checking the bluetooth indicator on the screen, that is easy to hide. This is what the media should be all over.
Lots of bashing up over the location stuff too. The way the app works (bluetooth beacons, the hype of 2014) it doesn't need to know your location. It just quietly pings out like a submarine, and if another phone is in range and picks up the ping they will ping back. If they keep pinging for 15 mins (or some time value, I don't know how long) then they will store that the two phones were within pinging range for 15 mins and will mark this as a possible covid transmission, and store both phone and contact details, and when it happened.
If one of the phones owners turns out to have covid then they will go back over the ping records and see who was pinged, so they know that they might have passed on the disease to those people. It just needs to know who owns the phones, it doesn't care about where they were, they just know they were near each other for 15 mins.
In China, the app is linked to WeChat (something like WhatsApp/PayPal/FB/mobile merged together), i.e. you don't want to be sharing this with anyone.
They implemented a system where when you go into/out of any building e.g. apartment building/office/restaurant/gyms etc. you have to tag in/out to enter/exit.
Basically uses Bluetooth to detect who's nearby and when one person in confirmed COVID-19, then all potential people who were nearby for x amount of time will immediately be notified and more importantly their 'health status' will turn from 'healthy' to 'potentially infected'. If you are 'potentially infected', you cannot enter any building or leave your own apartment as there are checkpoints everywhere.
It's quite a clever surveillance system and it seems to be working. Unfortunately, you need a compliant population to be compliant which I think will be difficult to implement outside of China where people value personal freedom more than public good (health and economically)
If Australia implemented this draconian approach, we would all be forced to download the app in order to go places.
Problem solved.
In China, they seem to be able to identify and deal with outbreaks quite effectively. i.e. contact trace everyone, force quarantine all individuals and shutdown whatever businesses within a week of identifying a confirmed case.
And it first starts with apps, then microchipping. This is a breach to your human rights that they keep slowly taking. Wake up people! We are not sheep! (however from what I have been seeing, most people are unfortunately acting like sheep).
Look, it's not my fault. As soon as I can get some TP I'll stop shitting in the paddock.
fibnat corruptalition as usual, potato mutton wants to jail you for not handing over passwords while cashing in taxpayer funded childcare centre welfare. scomo the smug face of a do nothing government, fired from every job hes had and failed upwards to the top job of our country. angus taylor co has benefitted from 92m in handouts to his cronies. remind and remember this party for their attacks on australia.
I don't even own a phone. this seems like it isn't really a problem. There is a underhanded way to do this by using the registered imei numbers that are attached to people(potentially less accurate) and collecting that data. whether there is an app or not you are registered to your phone if you use a cell network(possibly not by name, but you exist). I guess this is just about creating the illusion of choice?
oh, erm, your phone doesnt have to be turned on for this to work.
Onus of proof will be on you.
Look at VicPol, they charged a couple for posting holiday photos on social media, the couple had to prove they were old photos in order to have their $3200 fines for unnecessary travel revoked.