This is more of a technical question than an invitation to a political argument. :) But with all the talk over the last couple of days about the government FORCING their tracking app onto everyone's phone (since recanted) I was wondering how they would accomplish such a feat. Could they technically install an app on our phones without us knowing about it or will they force us to do it ourselves by using threats?
Cheers
@[Deactivated]: This is not the first time a government uses national security, terrorism or health related cases to erode their citizens of their personal rights and civil liberties.
People are ignorant if they think that the government will relinquish this power once they’re given access the devices.
@whooah1979: This is a voluntary app for a good cause, I don't see this as eroding personal rights or civil liberties. If it was mandatory I would agree and then we would have to do a cost benefit between loss of privacy compared to the amount of lives saved. My initial reaction is that I'd not want it to be mandatory but rather have the government incentivise the use.
@whooah1979: Well they said they won't make it mandatory, if that is wrong, I agree the two things need to be weighed.
@[Deactivated]: Mr Paul Kelly has already let the cat out of the bag showing their intentions if they can’t get people to download voluntarily. The PM can say what he wants now but we all know politicians rarely keep their word. They do more backflips when a acrobat.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-17/paul-kelly-coronaviru…
Is it meant to be like the proposed google/apple version of this? If so I'm fine with it.
It's not just ping cellphone location… Which requires some firm of judicial oversight to access, particularly when going through apps from third party commerce etc with encryption.
It's detailed highly specific possibly no end date almost certainly back-door consideration of everything yr doing.
It's the ultimate in panopticon - the govt doesn't want to watch you, the govt wants you to watch you.
And this isn't about liberate Minnesota either
Finally, if I understand, itd benefits are limited - would be much better to make testing more available, start calculating immunity etc while localising shut-downs and monitoring flare ups.
It's not just ping cellphone location… Which requires some firm of judicial oversight to access
I think you'll find there is no judical oversight required by the telco data retention act. They just ask the telcos for it.
Eek… sighs
Could they technically install an app on our phones without us knowing about it or will they force us to do it ourselves by using threats?
Technically they could if Google or Apple cooperated. Google has a long history of cooperating. Apple does not.
I wouldn’t be that confident.
The 2018 laws in Australia make it a crime for them to refuse to cooperate.
I think Apple would litigate it for the next five years and ultimately pull out of Australia before they did this.
The law allows for staff that don’t cooperate to be detained. And I don’t believe there is a reporting obligation to reveal if they have or not.
Maybe the law has not been used. Or maybe Apple is cooperating to install the software it is told to on devices to comply with a warrant.
The law allows for staff that don’t cooperate to be detained.
Good luck making arrests Cupertino, California.
Depends on your app settings for Google. You can disable the updating of new apps.
The government should first pass a law that significantly restricts the use of the data collected by the app, including but not limited to making the data and any of its derivatives inadmissible as evidence in court, prohibiting law enforcements to conduct any investigations based on the data, etc.
Basically, there should be a law that indemnifies the user from any legal consequences resulting the the analysis of the collected data.
It could be worse. The USA is considering taking data from existing apps eg. Google Android, Facebook and iOS.
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/03/18/digital_surveillanc…
It's important to note that "anonymised data" usually isn't anonymous because it can be tied to real identities at a high rate by matching it with third party data. This is done on purpose because no one really wants anonymous data when you can do so much more with real identities.
Australia already has a law that makes it illegal to refuse to cooperate with a government request to modify or add a technical feature.
There is nothing in the legislation or technically that would stop this app being added via an App Store update.
If you were really concerned, use a jail broken rom and skip the iOS and Android app stores or use a dumb phone.
That wasn't his question. His question was could they actually do it?
If the government wrote a law that gravity didn't apply to Australian citizens, gravity doesn't suddenly stop working. The answer is that it would actually be quite hard to force it on people without actually going around and checking everyone's phone.
The mechanism I have seen discussed is a the Police get a warrant to force the App Store operator to substitute a different binary for the one in the store for the users covered by the warrant.
I am not aware of any reporting mechanism to reveal whether this has happened or not.
The law includes provisions to jail tech staff at companies that don’t cooperate.
So the answer is yes, they technically and legally could do it.
Whether they would or not we don’t know yet.
But there's no way to force that update to occur. Yes, you could pull a massive dodgey and swap out an existing app for a modified one, but currently the stores can't force the update to go out.
This is purely technical, all your talk about forcing people to do stuff doesn't matter if it can't be done. And you can't force people to do something they can't do. Especially people who are overseas who'll just ignore/go public with such a ridiculous request.
Ten ways to implement this.
Offer it on ozbargain -
11) 30% off ebay transactions - through the tracing app.
Would be ddos’d by ozb before you know it.
5% cashback on wireless transaction may also bring enough attention.
But how about offering everyone who uses the app a hassle free Universal Basic Income, and scrap all those Jobseeker and Jobkeeper schemes.
Discounts would be less prone to fraud :)
All those gov schemes have potential loop holes for fraud - like those magical childcare in NSW with non-existent enrolled children.
https://www.news.com.au/finance/business/other-industries/po…
Pff.
11) claim that installing the app will make the next person's app more intrusive. The first one suffers least.
Only way this would work is if the Government gave everybody a new smart phone.
ozBargain will find them the best deal
Exactly, what about people without phones, and people who can't afford them?
Yes, this. Government take note
Well they could give police powers to stop & search your phone (which they probably already have) to make sure it's installed.
Easiest way would be to make it illegal to leave the house without an adult having a phone with the app on it. Then cops could have app detectors (using Bluetooth) and then stop & search your phone if it's not detected.
If they wanted to get serious about it, they could go down even more stringent measures of have app detectors at stores, etc, where you're either not allowed to enter or have your photo displayed on a tv screen & publicly shamed as a Non Tracer -letting public opinion drive up take.
Even better have an underground app detector app and let the public name & shame those not using it…ACA would love it!
IMHO just get Facebook, Apple & Google to run the thing, people (stupidly) trust them. We don't trust the govt. They could just organise people to get a msg to you, advising you to get tested. Simple, no humans need to see the data.
Simple, no humans need to see the data.
Yet they will when they stand to gain from it.
Just look at Facebook. If one dorky private citizen can wreak such havoc, imagine what a whole party of politicians would do with it.
Oh probably, but if you want up take, don't let the govt use it.
The Benjamin Franklin quote comes to mind: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
This app is a prelude to what will come next when all of this is gone.
“Trust us, we’re the government.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/02/china-brings-i…
https://www.inkstonenews.com/tech/chinese-mobile-users-must-…
Easiest way would be to make it illegal to leave the house without an adult having a phone with the app on it. Then cops could have app detectors (using Bluetooth) and then stop & search your phone if it's not detected.
The Americans might have a point with the right to bear arms, starting to make sense now when I read stuff like that.
The Americans might have a point with the right to bear arms
They always did have a point, it's the rest of the Western world that never had to earn their hard-won independence by spilling the blood of patriots and tyrants (as Jefferson said) that completely missed it.
When push comes to shove and the chips are down, when things get desperate, the state's monopoly on the use of deadly force can be seen for what it is: the final contingency for maintaining control over their property (i.e. you).
It's no secret that every genocidal mass-murderer throughout history made it their first priority upon ascending to power, to disarm the citizenry and tightly regulate the ownership and use of firearms.
The true power of any government over their citizenry fundamentally rests in their war powers (which today extend to every facet of life thanks to anti-terrorism legislation enacted post-9/11) and their ability to raise a standing army (which now extends to their heavily militarised law enforcement agencies).
You're right. Our homicide rate is waaay too low.
And there are many countries where because the citizens were disarmed, the genocide rate is essay too high.
@[Deactivated]: You don't even have to look at the 3rd world for proof that gun control measures have no correlation with murder rate.
All of America's murder capitals that are disproportionately responsible for their homicide by firearm deaths (New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Miami, Detroit, etc) all have some of the most stringent gun control laws in the US.
Australia is the statistical anomaly when it comes to trying to prove correlation equals causation.
We're just too small a population, too insignificant, too placid with very little real organised crime/drug trafficking, a more ethnically/racially-homogeneous country compared to the US (especially historically), and the overall violent crime rate was falling well before the National Firearms Agreement came into effect after the Port Arthur Massacre.
Prior to Port Arthur, we had a per capita rate of gun ownership on par with the United States (something most people don't know) and our annual murder rate hovered below 300 a year, for all categories of murder, not just firearm deaths (that's roughly 2 deaths per 100,000; in other words well below our leading causes of death such as: car accidents, alcohol, smoking, cardiovascular disease, etc.). If the logic of gun control advocates was remotely close to reality, we should have had at least 3,000 murders per year before semi-automatic rifles and pistols along with pump-action shotguns were effectively banned for a majority of citizens.
But yes, if we're speaking of any modern genocide perpetrated by an organised state power against a populace, whether it was the Ottoman Turks, Bolsheviks, Nazi Germany, Maoist China, Guatemala in the 1960s, Uganda under Idi Amin or the Khmer Rouge; all of those genocides were preceded by strict gun control measures.
@Miami Mall Alien: If you really feel that inadequate, go get yourself a big car. Guns are far too dangerous to be in the hands of people like you.
Guns are far too dangerous to be in the hands of people like you.
Yes it's far less dangerous to have guns in the hands of agents of state power who were responsible for more deaths in the 20th century than any other non-natural cause. Homicides involving firearms usually amount to ~11,000 deaths in America per year. The so-called "War on Terror", now largely known to have been initiated for entirely fraudulent, illegal and deeply immoral reasons, has killed over a million people across 8 different countries (the majority of those victims being impoverished civilians, usually below the age of 35). Somehow those guns in the service of nation-states are never in the sights of gun control advocates, but those in private hands responsible for a minuscule fraction of gun deaths worldwide, always are.
You're not against firearms in principle, you just believe the only people who should be wielding them are those in service of government because a uniform and a legal mandate somehow magically absolve a person of all human failings and weaknesses, and that absolute power over life-and-death will not corrupt absolutely.
If you really feel that inadequate
If anyone's projecting the image of some insecure, masochistic, "yes me lord" boot-lick who's deathly afraid of taking full responsibility for his own life and has to resort to childish insults whenever someone pierces the fragile bubble of acceptable thought that he's been indoctrinated into you, it's you.
@[Deactivated]: It sounds like you haven't talked to many black or Native Americans.
Or don't they count as people?
@john71: Of course guns are used to kill. You think the native Americans weren't outgunned?
Maybe they'll fare better with no guns at all.
The issue of gun rights is about the rights to defend oneself and to challenge rogue powers. Such as the one that conquered said native Americans.
African Americans were enslaved with no means of rebellion since they were unarmed.
It sounds like you haven't talked to many black or Native Americans.
Perhaps if the West African states and kingdoms that were forced into the Atlantic Slave Trade and the Native Americans actually possessed firepower equal to that of the European colonial powers, their cultures and histories would not be forgotten footnotes in textbooks today.
Likewise, if the Armenians, Ukrainians, Nazi "undesirables", Chinese during the Great Leap Forward and Cambodians during the Khmer Rouge had the means with which to defend themselves, they wouldn't be tragic and all-to-predictable reminders from the past of what happens when a population is disarmed and completely at the whim of a tyrannical and authoritarian government.
Like most Aussies when it comes to discussing gun control, you're so far removed from any notions of political struggle, national determination, ethnic/religious divides and prolonged economic/societal breakdown, that you can't see how easily even a stable government can slip into a completely dictatorial nightmare in a short span of time. The Germans of the Weimar Republic believed much the same and would have never imagined that their proud and culturally-acclaimed nation could be host to such horrors during WW2. For a recent example look at Venezuela right now, a nation where private gun ownership was outright banned by Hugo Chavez in 2012, yet which had the world's highest crime rate in 2017. It's now a failed state essentially, where constitutional rights have been suspended and extra-judicial killings and "disappearances" by police and military occur on a daily basis.
But sure, you keep denying several hundred years of history and repeating that normie "truism" that guns are carte blanche bad when in the hands of ordinary, responsible and well-informed civilians but perfectly fine in the hands government-ordered death squads and psychopaths.
I haven't seen this episode of Black Mirror yet.
Mobile corona tracka - 6 letters each word, needed to buy and sell, generally held in the right hand, plus Scomo is a member of a church where signs and wonders happen every Sunday night and he's having a popularity surge, pestilence at the door - I think we've found the beast.
This is more of a technical question
I guess its kind of complicated, typically not really unless it comes directly from the ROM maker, for example samsung or apple or Google would push a new update that automatically comes with the app, or they'd do a push from apple store/google play store but thats typically much easier to remove (similar to other apps). As a lot of phones are under a certain telco (telstra/optus etc) sometimes they have a custom like rom so that they can push their freeware (telsta app or whatever) onto your phone. I imagine places like China have a custom firmware/rom to follow people as it typically needs high permissions.
I'm guessing thats largely why it has to be opt-in, and you have to accept to download and use the app. In saying that, theres other ways governement can get your details.
For example they can ask the telco directly, when you get a sim card you register your name/address etc, then they can find when you ping a cell tower your approx location. Government has also implemented a law that allows them access to encrypted data of apps (messages largely I think). https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2019-07-10/dutton-encryp…
Actually, they don't need to force an app or update, nor does it need to be opt in.
Australia has no laws protecting net neutrality, meaning your data is already being monitored. Ever wondered why your internet provider/phone service provider is able to give you a breakdown of what you use your internet for? Ever wondered how internet providers were able to provide info on who downloaded the Dallas buyers club back in the day? Your data is already being monitored. Anytime you access the internet without a VPN your data is being monitored. Anytime you use your mobile browser on the go, they can track back to which tower you're accessing it through. Heck, you don't even have to be using a browser since most people don't realise the depth of permissions they've given their apps without realising. Anytime you're stuck in traffic, Google monitors how many other people are stuck in traffic with you and uses that info to update the accuracy of their Google maps navigation and they are monitoring how fast you're travelling to provide accurate estimates for other users. And with the government owned monopoly known as the NBN, they already know a lot of our habits. Google and Apple is also always listening because they ask for generic permissions with deep repercussions that we aren't aware of when we accept them.
The TLDR is, they don't need you to opt-in or install an app or update, thanks to the lack of laws protecting net neutrality in australia they've had access to the data and info all along.
And with the government owned monopoly known as the NBN, they already know a lot of our habits.
I was going to comment on this as well, though I tried to keep it based more on location data then your your data overall. Back in the day there wasn't as much logging because its expensive and not worth it for ISPs, I think the dallas buyers club was based on just ip addresses at the time of torrent trackers. But with the meta data (data retention laws), as you said the government has it all.
“So just to be very clear you get the full URL, you get the full www dot, whatever it is, dotcom?” committee chair Andrew Hastie asked.
“That’s right. It can be quite long or it can be quite short, and in some cases the descriptor is long enough we start to ask ourselves that it is almost starting to communicate the content…
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/07/web-browsing-h…
so you open google maps and it has your geolocation in the url? Bam government can access this data for the next 2 years. Billing data, address info etc, you can see the data set yourself:
https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/nat-security/files/dataset.pd…
https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/about-us/our-portfolios/natio…
If you use https:// the URL is encrypted.
Australia has no laws protecting net neutrality, meaning your data is already being monitored.
fyi 'net neutrality' is nothing to do with your data being monitored or not.
Actually it has more to do with it than you think. Net neutrality is primarily about ensuring that all data is being treated equality. A lack of protection laws means that companies can choose to control or restrict access to certain data that should be freely available. Examples of this include the Australian internet censorship and the NBN with their attempt at restricting Netflix access to those who are willing to pay a Netflix fee/tax. The only way for a company to control access to specific data streams on an individual basis is to have some degree of monitoring of said data. Most internet users are still accessing via dynamic IPs so it's not as simple as blocking an IP address.
Net neutrality is primarily about ensuring that all data is being treated equality.
Exactly.
The only way for a company to control access to specific data streams on an individual basis is to have some degree of monitoring of said data.
Nope. The don't need to spy on the content of your data to know if it's coming from Netflix or not.
They could get the telcos to do the dirty work for them.
How though?
The post above your floated a couple of possibilities of how it could be done if the phone had a custom telco ROM on it but not all of them do.
By making their app mandatory? I've noticed that the myoptus app already has permission to access my location and my contacts.
I've also read somewhere that all telcos already had access to the following anyway:
Yep wouldn't surprise me at all. So why does the government need extra info? And what kind of a security risk would be implementing by allowing random blutooth connections to unknown devices? Now that would be a great way to spread a virus wouldn't it? :)
So why does the government need extra info?
GPS doesn't work well indoors whereas bluetooth does (<25m accuracy). Ble also has low energy consumption ( about 1/15th of GPS) and requires no data.
The government probably wants to appear to be going about it in a democratic way.If democracy doesn't work, they'll take the kids gloves off and make it mandatory… for most.
i don't think myoptus could push another installer.
I think it would either be pushed through the play store or manufacturers like samsung.
Wont happen though
@Davo1111: Out of curiosity, would it need to be a different installer? Couldn't it be added as an extra feature of the existing myoptus/voda/telstra.. etc app?
@[Deactivated]: I suppose, it might need to ask for new permissions though.
I wouldn't lose any sleep over this. The media will go crazy if they try and push it
@Davo1111: I need to have a certain level of security clearance for work ( nothing too exciting , really) but it would be interesting to see how downloading an app that tracks my movement, and which could potentially be hacked, affect that. I don't think my employer would be too happy…
@[Deactivated]: does your employer allow you to install google maps, fitbit, google fit, mifit, aami safe driver app etc?
@[Deactivated]: well, that destroyed my argument :P
I'd guess they would ask you to put it on your personal device, and phone turns off at the door. Or have some type of sandbox.
Android they could yes, iOS no.
Was gonna say, you can only force apps on Android, not iOS.
IOS , you say? How about if they made having the app running on your phone a pre-requisite to receiving welfare payments? That should take care of a good portion of those IOS users, wouldn't it? :p
Need to force bluetooth enabled as well, can Android do that?
Given Apple has not even given us a MYKI app yet, I wouldn’t hold my breath for Apple delivering this any time soon.
Personally I’m not downloading it. These things often start off as one thing and devolve into something else. I’m law abiding, I keep my distances, when I go for my exercise I wouldn’t be within the social distances of anyone else for 15 minutes at a time. This is going to be a big database of who is meeting with whomever else. We are already seeing with the raids on journalists that this Government pays scant attention to civil liberties. Normally, I’m not a conspiracy nut but this just doesn’t feel right, then saying it would be forced on us was just a poor way of trying to sell it. I think they realised that when they backed off but the damage was done.
But that journalist wrote something that didn't go along with the government narrative, we can't have them telling the truth lying.
Apparently we can’t handle the truth. I do wonder what they are using COVID-19 to cover up. How much of the money they are throwing around will, actually, be used to support the Australian people, rather than their mates? I guess we will never know because of Government confidentiality and commercial in confidence. Still, it could be much worse, we could be America.
That's it, you just never know exactly what's happening, but I'm sure scomo is trying to help his mates out.
Given Apple has not even given us a MYKI app yet
The only reason there is no MYKI IOS app is because Apple want a good chunk of the top up money (I heard ~30%)
Yup, hence me laying this at Apples door.
Does Bluetooth access your mac address?
Bluetooh has its own MAC.
Which changes every 10-20mins
No idea what you're thinking of but the MAC is static.
Highly doubt Apple will be enforcing this onto their Australian user base, no matter what compel laws Australia might have. I certainly won’t be installing it, there’s already been breaches of the site history information ISP’s keep about users.
Stinks of a slippery slope.
If they would force it, I would have a second rooted Android phone with me at all times which changes my Bluetooth MAC address every couple hours.
Probably would get a movement going where voluntary people would carry rooted Androids which all make different Bluetooth MAC addresses to screw up the papa gubment's surveillance.
Though, if it's voluntary, I see no reason to go against it, as most of the people who would install it listen to government like a god and have Google Home/Alexa products in their homes and give all permissions to their apps anyway.
(since recanted)
End of Thread
I highly doubt it could or would be forced. However, isn’t it a good thing to have?
If you have been in contact with someone with Covid 19, don’t you want to know so that you can get tested (I think the key here is it will be available when there are more than enough tests - which seems to be very soon) and avoid others whilst waiting for the results, which again I think are starting to come back much quicker than when this started.
I don’t think it will be forced but I could see places reopening and one of the conditions of entry being you are carrying a phone with this app.
You mean like they do in communist China? :)
I mean like they do in Australia where you get your ID checked at the pub.
Or your ID is checked at a bunch of other places. I gave blood the other day and they wanted an ID with a photograph.
Looks like those non US emails have gone up in premium .
War on terror passed a lot of lack of privacy laws that are ridiculous and costly to the end users who pay for the Govt surveillance . Govt trying to take advantage again and after vaccine is found they won't withdraw it .
What sort of non-US emails are you referring to?
Looking at new Coronavirus cases being below an average of 50 the 5 days its time for the Govt to start balancing economic effect with social distancing and start up businesses this can be applied to . Another fact no one below 50 yrs old has died in this country . Right now the economic effects are staggering and the balance is wrong . BTW I make a lot more nowadays with products for people sitting their asses at home all day but are very concerned about the Australian economy !
42 year old man from the Philippines died in a Perth hospital a few days ago so not really a fact that no-one under 50 has died here.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-17/man-in-40s-youngest-t…
Lol good luck.
Was hard enough for common people to learn how to get webcams working, you think you will be able to train the police force to search for working apps on someones smart phone?
Government has reorganise mygov like 20 times in 10 years and keep on renaming government branches and services. Literally handball everything to idiot contractors who don't care.
@[Deactivated]: The government has any number of options available to it for contact tracing. It can use those so far as I am concerned.
If you choose to participate in this scheme, you'll get no argument from me. Each to their own while ever some level of personal freedom still exists.