What is God doing through the coronavirus? John Piper offers six biblical answers to that question, showing us that God is at work in this moment in history.
[Edit: The Kindle book normally retails at USD3.29 on Amazon US but is currently offered free through Crossway]
@werdplaya58: Umm ok well its not just over gay beliefs that religious people are told to screw themselves. They're are often told to screw off as the other people simply hate their religion. Someone speaks about homosexual theropy it's up to them to embrace or reject it. So if you are gonna tell someone to get screwed for their opinion before they even speak you are no better than those people who don't even listen to the argument. So that's obviously just hate motivating you
@RetroMetro: You are 100% correct. Which is why I've listened to the argument, thought about it, and carefully formed the view that those preaching it can definitely can go screw themselves and their beliefs. And I'll happily defend the religious people who don't share that view, of which there are many.
@werdplaya58: Ok so if someone came to your door the next day and said they were Muslim and wanted to preach against homosexuality would you listen or just close the door on them and tell them to go screw themselves? Cause you seem motivated by hate and ignoring the logical reasoning behind
@RetroMetro: Not sure how I can make it clearer. If they were preaching to me that gay people need to be changed etc. I would close the door and tell them to get screwed. It doesn't matter if they are Catholic, Pentacostal, Baptist, Muslim, etc. I don't care what your beliefs are until they encroach on and negatively affect other people's lives. And I'm happy to listen to and discuss these things logically with religious people who actually get that distinction between having private beliefs and needing to preach what's best for everyone else. You can't honestly say I haven't heard you out mate.
@werdplaya58: Ok awesome I applaud you now that you have listened to my argument. But If you are not gonna listen to people talking about gay beliefs then if we apply that logic let's go tell some gay people to screw off. It's only fair right?
@RetroMetro: That's some odd logic there.
Are gay people telling you that you should be gay also? No. They are just being gay.
Are anti-gay preachers saying that gay people should not be gay? Yes. Only one of these groups is preaching about someone's sexual orientation needing to change. So that is the one group that can go get screwed (heterosexually of course) and mind their own business :)
@werdplaya58: Minding their own business. You kidding me? Drag queens preach about gay and governments are implanting gay education into schools. Let's tell them to screw off. They are not keeping it to themselves
@RetroMetro: Telling people it doesn't matter if they are gay or straight has zero effect on your day to day life. It is literally telling people that it is a non-issue. Why do you want to make it an issue? Haven't we (religious and non-religious people) got bigger fish to fry? There is nothing to be threatened about. You said yourself, it's your choice whether to listen or not. No one is telling you to change your sexual orientation, they are just saying live and let live, didn't Jesus say that somewhere? Anyway good chat I'm done.
@werdplaya58: Ok cya good chat I like hearing form the opposition side. I was just applying your logic to tell them to screw off cause they are not minding their business. Anyways gtg to work
@RetroMetro: Perhaps you need therapy to let go of the delusion of a higher power looking over you? Perhaps we could start a therapy group for the poor homosexual animals living a life if sin as well. They know not what they do.
@brendanm: Dont need to they die off. Natural selection. And now you are putting animals and people in the same boat. Clearly we are different
@RetroMetro: Wow, can homosexual humans procreate? Breeding them out of existence hasn't seemed to work so far, for humans or animals.
Humans are a part of the animal kingdom. Noah put them all in the same boat 😂
@brendanm: Oh and can animals build skyscrapers, can they solve complex maths equations, do they have hospitals, can they all come together and be religious. Mate its obvious we are different. I mean if you want we could chuck you in the monkeys cage and say you are the same 😂.
@RetroMetro: Wow, wait a minute, did a religious person just talk about natural selection. Heretic, Jesus would turn in his grave.
Anyway, don't blame gay people, blame the "straight" one, you keep producing gay people.
@z28: Ok firstly natural selection exists but animals don't change species. E.g a bird may change beak length depending on different the environment (yes science and religion exists big gasp). Secondly you are blaming your parents for gays. Thirdly you are anti gay as you think it's a bad product of heterosexual people. Can't tell which side you are on
@RetroMetro: Read my comment, I blame YOU for producing gay people
Where did I sound anti-gay, again read my comment.
But maybe you shouldn't read my comments, some sort of comprehension-challenged is forgiven (god creates people differently I suppose).
@z28: You are still blaming your parents for some reason. You are a heterosexual hater even though you wouldn't exist without them, thats quite laughable and disrespectful to the people who brought you to life.
Will converting make me immune to covid-19?
That's what Margaret Court says.
Maybe she should tell USA, their deaths are getting pretty bad now.
https://au.sports.yahoo.com/coronavirus-margaret-court-churc…
I'm convinced, where do I sign up?
Dear me! Margaret Court needs to read her Bible more, not less. The Bible never supports such ridiculous logic! Facepalm moment.
What a (profanity). After all the misery caused and implemented through religion, especially by the catholic church and the vatican. At least 1000 years and still hard at work creating hell on earth. Look at that abomination Pell, a prince of the church. We are seeing the face of evil here.
Maybe we can get Pell for not social distancing with little kiddies instead.
kids are immune
From coronavirus or religious figures having their way with them?
Reason for neg: Issue with product
What was the issue? I haven't finished reading it all like you have but mind sharing what the problem was?
Fiction passed off as fact.
Yeah no, making this at all about religion is the wrong way to go
When all hope is lost, religion is the only way to go.
That is absolutely not right.
I disagree with you. What is wrong with saying "when you have exhausted all option, you better hope for a miracle."
Ughhhh.
Yas?
So many comments about Pell. If Pell is guilty we should all condemn it including Christian. However, he was not found guilty. The court said their's reasonable doubt. I reckon if Pell was not a religious figure, there won't be as much complain. Most people won't think the court is corrupt.
Let him be known as the kiddie diddler from shall forth.
If Pell is guilty we should all condemn it including Christian
One man doesn't represent all of Christianity just as one corrupt politician doesn't represent an entire government.
But yes, glad he was found not guilty
I meant Christian also should condemn him, if he was guilty. I did not mean Pell represent all Christians.
I see, yeah that makes sense
Went and saw this guy speak a few years back. He’s a legit guy.
How many kiddies did he diddle?
"For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks."…
Too many I guess…
Ask the ABC?
At the presentation or over his life? Probably only a few at the actual presentation itself.
Saw another free eBook post of Linux for Beginners with zero neg. I don't have any knowledge regarding what Linux is, how to use it or how it will enrich my life. But I respect that some other people may appreciate it and may benefit from it. What contrast to this post.
Agreed - I cannot understand the intolerance of some people in these threads. It's a free book! No-one is being forced to read it. Plenty of other free books are posted on all sorts of topics - I'm thankful that people find the offer and share it. I'm not interested in 99% of the posts on this website, but I come here for the 1% that are useful to me. No need to bag people for a post you dislike.
Linux is real!
The contrast is that this "deal" tries to draw links between something that isn't evident (religion) with something that's been proven to be immensely destructive. I don't care if you think religion has a part in what the world is facing but don't go telling others that "faith" will keep us safe as that will harm others. There have been many cases over the past few months where religion has cost the lives of many people.
And learning about Linux… is none of that.
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves
Bible excerpt. Such a loving, caring, compassionate and forgiving religion. /sarc
Sure, that's what it seems like if you take a quote out of context, and don't put in the effort to understand the Old Testament. Have you looked at the whole story? If not, one great place to start is "Is God a Moral Monster?" by Paul Copan.
Yes I have read the whole story from a couple of different variations, multiple times. Quote was not out of context as there is no valid context for that type of action. You are very quick to assume I haven't put the effort in.
LikeMike, I apologise for assuming that you hadn't put in the effort. That was wrong of me. I'm glad to see you have read it multiple times. Have you examined the viewpoints from scholars on both sides of the argument, or is your view just based on your own interpretation?
I think there is a case for a valid context, which I will attempt to explain. However, the New Testament is quite clear that this method of God using a nation to judge another nation has been superseded. God may still use some people today to physically punish people (but he does not command this any more), but the promise of the Bible is that God's final judgment will bring ultimate justice. As a side note, I find it very interesting that people who believe that the Universe is meaningless somehow long for ultimate justice. Isn't that logically inconsistent?
The context in this case is that the Canaanites were engaged in all sorts of amoral behaviour, including child sacrifice. In this case, God waited for 430 years to inflict judgment (Genesis 15:16). God patiently waits for all people to turn away from their wrong actions and honour him with their thoughts and actions (2 Peter 3:9).
One way to think about this issue is how we combat justice in today's world. When people are killing children, is it right for us to ignore it? Do we tell them to "stop it", or do we enforce stricter measures? Sure, we often imprison people when there are a few perpetrators, but what do we tend to do when it is an entire people group engaged in abhorrent behaviour (e.g. ISIS)?
May I also ask what your basis for morality is? I've looked at worldviews where the Universe originated from nothing, and there are categorical errors of logic that arise when morality is somehow introduced on this foundation.
@WalletFullOfMoths: @WalletFullOfMoths the cognitive dissonance you display is staggering.
You, like most people, inherently know that murdering a group of people and keeping their young daughters as sex slaves is morally wrong.
But it is written about in your bible, which you were probably told from a young age by your parents is a book of good morals.
So rather than accepting the evidence that the bible is clearly immoral, you go through all kinds of mental gymnastics and interpretation so that you can continue to believe that a book that advocates murder and child rape is moral.
I wonder if you would give the same leeway to any other book? If Deepak Chopra's self help books had chapters on murdering and raping would you be finding creative ways to interpret it positively, or would you dismiss it as barbaric nonsense?
@Lurk Hartog: Please show me how this passage says the girls were kept as "sex slaves"? That's a massive leap of evidence.
Is war murder? Another interesting twist.
@WalletFullOfMoths: @WalletFullOfMoths Right. Perhaps there were other motivations for selecting only the young, virgin females to "keep alive for yourselves"? Any suggestions?
Is there any reason why you don't interpret these passages at face value and seek to interpret it in the way that makes it seem the least bad?
And yes, even in times of war, the intentional killing of civilians and children is generally considered murder/a war crime.
@Lurk Hartog: Yes, there are a number of other possibilities that were practiced at the time. Sometimes the girls were integrated into society, and then would become wives once mature enough.
Yes, there is good reason. Like with anyone, I always try to use the Principle of Charity when it comes to interpretation of other people's statements. I've read a reasonable amount about ancient history, so that helps to not instantly make the worst assumptions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity
I agree with your last statement. I find this passage jarring compared to much of the Bible. I guess it demonstrates how concerned God is about the sin of child-sacrifice. I purchased the book "Is God a Moral Monster?" by Paul Copan recently, to see how he explains it.
However, I guess it comes down to a case of comparison. I still investigate atheism and agnosticism to keep my beliefs checked, but I find they have more logical inconsistencies than Christianity.
I'd love the know the context where it's great to kill all these people.
Good comment. See above and let me know what you think.
@WalletFullOfMoths: That the bible is altered willy nilly to suit the times. Old testament turns people off, so we'll make a new testament where God isn't so angry and vengeful.
@brendanm: Do you have any scholarly evidence for the Bible being "altered willy nilly"? From the historical sources I have consulted so far, the evidence suggests that the Bible was put together very carefully, and hasn't been "altered" in reaction to anything.
Have you read the Bible? If not, I think you might find that as much as Jesus does speak about loving others, he is also quite clear that God is still a God of judgment, and frequently speaks of a future judgment of people for what they have done and how they have treated God. This is not "vengeful" justice - it is a righteous judgment that sets the wrong right.
@WalletFullOfMoths: Old testament - angry god
New testament - not so angry god
It "changes" by people twisting whatever is written into whatever less morose version they want it to be.
https://www.openbible.info/topics/killing_children
Tell me how these are a loving/caring religion/god/whatever.
@brendanm: Sorry brendanm, did you read the page you posted? Many of those verses are about caring for children. Please give the context of the verses you are trying to explain.
I'm afraid that is categorically untrue. It is the same God in the Old and New Testaments. Both speak of a loving God who is highly concerned about ultimate justice.
People twist everything. You can point to Stalin, Mao Zedong and Pol Pot and say "look, atheists are responsible for killing over 70 million people". But that commits the fallacy of generalisation. I don't think your argument carries any weight.
@WalletFullOfMoths: Read the first few. I don't think having children torn apart by bears, or beaten with stones is very caring.
Loving? Sure is a lot of death and punishment in the bible.
If he is so loving, why does he allow despicable things to occur every second, of every hour, of every day?
@brendanm: Sure, but what is the context of those stories. Examining the Hebrew word for children in the "bear story", shows that they were much more likely to be young men.
On the suffering question, there are some excellent, logical responses to this difficult issue:
https://www.rzim.org/read/just-thinking-magazine/if-god-why-…
@WalletFullOfMoths: Ah, it's much better than a bunch of young men be torn apart by bears, convinced!
I haven't seen many warnings about the author, but he's said some kind boggling things over the years. For example, he is a key supporter of "biblical" gender roles (wives must be submissive, only men can be leaders etc), and he has been quite vocal about this. He also supports things like gay conversation therapy, and infamously told a man to break up with his girlfriend simply because she supported LGBT rights.
I could spend all day listing the whacky things John Piper has said, but I'd suggest if this book tempts you then at least do a little research into the author!
Religious nut does stupid things, more news at 7.
Not a bargain - whole lot of junk
Just listening to it now, it's pretty personal & full on.
OzBargain shouldn't be this useless.
How many different religions in the world including the wacko ones? Don't forget, they all claim to be correct with their teachings.
Do you know how Priests make Holy water?
They boil the hell out of it.
Most religions are derivatives of the main few.
And of course they're going to claim they're correct, no one would be part of a religion whose teaching were faulty.
Same as Atheist believe his worldview is correct. Same as agnostic believes his worldview is correct.
Please educate us on the benefits of converting to our lord and savior.
73 virgins, don't have to eat pork, can use kosher salt, can "touch" little boys, immune from coronavirus, need I go on?
Since you asked what is the benefits of converting. My advice for you is not to convert. We already have more than enough prosperity gospel we don't need more.
@gto21 I don't think you know the meaning of the word agnostic. Agnostics don't generally think they are correct.
Some believe we don't have enough evidence to determine which is right or wrong. So being on the fence is the correct worldview.
If they generally don't believe they are correct, it's unlikely they will be an agnostic. They will probably be atheist or theist. Unless they know the truth and choose to reject it on purpose.
According to the oxford dictionary. Agnostic: a person who believes that it is not possible to know whether God exists or not. I actually know what it means and you don't.
Interesting that these things get so many up-votes.
God is helping us all by keeping us inside, where we can't sin. Thankyou for killing thousands god, really appreciate it. Appreciate you leaving millions in constant poverty and abuse as well, really teaches them a lesson, filthy heathens.
Yep, god is showing us great work by wiping us out. Hopefully the stupid ones are first to go 😂
Complete junk. All religious preachers have come up with new theories. Gods punishment. If anything good, it all goes to GOD. Even if its bad situation, god did that to teach us. BS.
Actually its these people, in the name of God, spread the virus. Remember reading a news that one church setup prayer to heal and all caught the virus (god's gift). Another one in India where some sect of Muslims thought Alla created it and they congregated in Nizamuddin area to pray and then went back to different location after the prayer, spreading the virus to greater communities - in one day the case doubled. Thanks to religion.
If you cant help, shut the bloody mouth and dont even come to take the share of credit that Science deserve.
Agree about the Indian situation. In the same country, the majority Hindus too congregated at their temples instead of following their PM's lockdown. Luckily nobody there had covid-19, else the situation would have been disastrous.
Exactly. I was not cornering any particular religion. Those were the news on international media that caught my attention. Also there was news that people gathered to show the solidarity to the health workers where the call was to show the support while staying at home, not by a communal gathering.
All religions unite when doing stupid things.
Deus Vult intensifies
This is wrong on so many levels. I have issue with the ‘product’ which is really just a rambling of a person totally removed from reality.
Lies.
Covid 19 is a sign that god is either not omnipotent or she is malevolent.
feminism
What the hell?
God is as much of a woman as a man. So why not use "she" instead of "he"?
God’s technically neither. But He’s usually referred to as the Father (not Mother) and Jesus came as a man so “He” fits better
just another atheists vs religion vs Christianity bargain…. Meh
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@RetroMetro: Well honestly that is exactly what I would say to anyone who thinks people are "soft" for not wanting to validate homophobic preaching (which calling for gay conversion therapy unequivocally is). They most definitely CAN go screw themselves and their beliefs.
Fortunately, not all religious people hold such views.