What is God doing through the coronavirus? John Piper offers six biblical answers to that question, showing us that God is at work in this moment in history.
[Edit: The Kindle book normally retails at USD3.29 on Amazon US but is currently offered free through Crossway]
@WalletFullOfMoths: From your link…If the animals were kept in cages with an average size of 50 × 50 × 30 centimetres (20 × 20 × 12 inches)…
How do you fit an elephant, Hippo, Giraffe, Black Bear, Polar Bear, Brown Bear , Rhino, Gorilla, Buffalo, Kangaroo, Horse, Cow, Wildebeest, Camel, Orangutan on a boat the same size as a 45 foot cruiser?…do I need to continue.
There are approx 3,400 species and sub species of snakes in the world. Where they on the Ark? If yes why was no one bitten? Why did no one die from snake bite? Was it divine intervention?
Keep clutching at straws.
@Snake 4: It seems ludicrous, but perhaps you missed the key word "average".
Also you may have missed this paragraph: "The largest animals were probably represented by ‘teenage’ or even younger specimens. The median size of all animals on the ark would actually have been that of a small rat, according to Woodmorappe‘s up-to-date tabulations, while only about 11% would have been much larger than a sheep."
I'm not sure that you understand the idea of genetic potential. The information encoded in snake DNA, together with many mutations over many generations can produce an extraordinary diversity of snakes. Here's one mathematical explanation:
https://creation.com/a-pair-of-dogswolves-on-noahs-ark-could…
@WalletFullOfMoths: Has the 'story' your link refers to been peer reviewed? I also note another biologist Richard A. Meiss, Ph.D debunks the story and calls it 'preposterous and points up the superficiality of your arguments.' They both can't be correct.
Again. How did Noah and his mob survive venomous snake bites.
And another one for you. How were all the animals fed?
I suggest you don't talk to me regarding snakes.
That's the last on the subject from me. Enjoy your fantasy world.
@Snake 4: Yes, that's right. They can't both be correct. However, let's not rely on an informal logical fallacy of argument from authority - i.e. just because he has a PhD, doesn't mean he is correct. It would be great to see some evidence from Dr. Meiss, rather than accusations of superficiality. And yes, I do have copies of the Creation Journal. It is peer-reviewed. I realise you probably think the peers are biased. I find them to be critical and fair. However, I will say that in general, the peer-review system can sometimes be pedestalled with honour that it doesn't deserve upon scrutiny. I do think the scientific community should keep doing it though, but am aware of the limitations.
Where does the Bible say that Noah and his mob were bitten by venomous snakes? Perhaps you made a leap of logic. I guess Noah and his mob ensured they weren't bitten. That's a plausible possibility given their other animal keeping skills. There's a lot of snake catchers I've seen that manage to avoid being bitten, and it doesn't require fancy technology.
For food requirements, see the paragraph in the article entitled "Food requirements".
Thanks for the discussion. You had some excellent questions.
@WalletFullOfMoths: Ok. Another last one
I also thank you for the civil discussion.
I am a snake catcher/handler/trainer. Started when I was 14 and am now 74. Yes I have been bitten a number of times. If you handle enough you will be bitten.
Snake handlers are bitten a lot more than the general public. It goes with the territory.
@WalletFullOfMoths: Mate, I can't help but feel that you need the Bible to be true and will not entertain the possibility that it's a work of fiction, rather than that you are actually persuaded by this argument.
Go ask a zoologist if it's feasible to put breeding pairs of the world's animals on a boat, and if so, how long it might take to round them all up.
It doesn't appear that this creation.com writer has any experience in the field.
If Noah's ark was in the Koran instead of the Bible, would you still find it convincing?
@Lurk Hartog: Lurk Hartog, I understand your concern and skepticism. Really! I thought some of these ideas in the Bible were ludicrous at one stage too. After talking with people of varying beliefs, and reading articles and watching debates such as those on RZIM.org and CARM.org, I realised two things:
Some of the Bible's claims had quite reasonable explanations when the historical context or original Greek/Hebrew language is understood. However, I readily admit there are other claims that are difficult to defend with purely naturalistic explanations (but please note, Christians should only ever invoke supernatural explanations if that is what the Bible says happened. Unfortunately many resort to ridiculous excuses like "God must have done it", when often there are perfectly reasonable natural options available). Unfortunately, many Christians don't have a good grip on what they believe, and even less on why they believe it! It's quite shameful, when there is so much scientific, philosophical and historical evidence in their favour.
The second thing I realised when comparing worldviews was that other worldviews were even harder to defend than Christianity.
Stories about history is only one aspect of a worldview. Every worldview must be subjected to the following tests:
1. Coherence: logically consistent – Its teachings cannot be self-contradictory.
2. Correspondence: empirically adequate – Its teachings must match what we see in reality.
3. Pragmatic: existentially relevant – Its teachings must speak directly to how we actually live our lives.
Second, each worldview must address the following four ultimate questions:
1. Origin – Where do the universe and human beings come from?
2. Meaning – What is the meaning or purpose of life?
3. Morality – How do we know what is right and what is wrong?
4. Destiny – What happens to us after we die?
For example, atheists have to counter some of these arguments: https://carm.org/atheism
Therefore, while I greatly enjoy discussing different worldviews, and revise my own beliefs as I study further, I'm currently going with the worldview that answers the above requirements in the most logical, empirically adequate and relevant way. I'm ready and willing to change though. I'm quite serious when I say that. We only get one chance at life - why would I live and die for a lie?
If Noah's ark was in the Koran, I wouldn't find it very convincing. This is not because I'm biased against all other religions. Have you examined the textual integrity and logical consistency of the Koran versus the Bible? From what I've found so far, it's chalk and cheese. Have a look at this website for some information on this topic: https://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/index.html
In my journey, I also found Lee Strobel's books to be quite helpful. He was a convinced atheist, and decided to write a book to demonstrate to the world just how ludicrous Christianity is, but ended up changing his mind. As a legal journalist, he travelled the world to talk to experts in all the different topics that are commonly discussed. I find this made his writing quite balanced and including relevant questions asked by a skeptic.
Thanks for the discussion. I always admire other thinking people, regardless of their beliefs. If you want to do a Zoom chat, phone call or an email discussion, I'm quite happy to take this off OzBargain. Just send me a direct message.
tsk. You haven't even read it have you? At least have a look for yourself rather than regurgitate whatever you've heard elsewhere.
Come back and fix all the errors in your claims, and see if you still want to mock. Maybe you will, or maybe……….
If god exist, he can create the coronavirus vaccine and drop it on the table of a researcher somewhere, TOMORROW…
Anyway, this can look like profiteering for the author utilising the topic at a time of crisis…
Profit of $0.00 is very great indeed
You know the principle and value of branding and marketing?
oh, so now you believe in God, and want Him to intervene? Interesting.
How did you read into it that I believe in GOD?
Can you guess what I think is the chance of GOD intervening?
I don't don't go quoting what I think someone who doesn't exist can do, and guess have a bit of trouble understanding why a sane person would
@SlickMick: Perhaps most sane persons could see that there is a /s there at the end of the sentence even if there wasn't one?
Israel health minister, who claims coronavirus is ‘divine punishment’ for homosexuality, tests positive for COVID-19
https://flipboard.com/topic/government/israel-health-ministe…
How on earth did he become a health minister with such a lack of logic? Beats me.
Still, I'm sorry for him and for anyone that gets COVID-19.
using a crisis that is killing people to promote your irrelevant idea
Irrelevant? The book title seems pretty relevant. The concept of a God who is concerned about suffering seems pretty relevant.
https://www.rzim.org/read/just-thinking-magazine/if-god-why-…
You're never too old to believe in fairy-tales
Just no
Dangerous misinformation being spread by an opportunist during a global health crisis.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then where does evil come from?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
Might as well ask me what I'm doing during this pandemic.🙄
If He is both able and willing, rather than call on Him you'd rather explore the origins of evil??
This is what I meant:
Yes, but what I'm saying is what if God is able to prevent evil, and is willing to prevent evil, but isn't going to force Himself upon you?
If you want evil, go for it. If you want an escape from evil, then seek the one who is able and willing to prevent it.
We know evil exists - knowing why or where it came from doesn't have any bearing on anything??
I know that whoever wrote that wanted to "blame" God for evil. But it's a pretty childish argument.
Say a child has a "good" upbringing, but buys a gun and starts shooting up his school. Do we suddenly become spiritual and look to higher powers to blame??
So if God is willing and able to prevent evil, but not a dictator to enforce his will upon us, then He is omnipotent and not malevolent.
If He answers those who diligently seek Him, it seems reasonable to call Him God.
And to find out why evil exists, that question is best answered by the kid with the gun, or the people handling food unhygienically etc.
I'd be happy to sign a petition that we want God to intervene and remove all evil, but even the smallest interference by governments brings out the "nanny state" complaints, so I can imagine the feedback on the idea "let's ask God to rule over us".
but isn't going to force Himself upon you?
If only His representatives on earth showed the same decency…
@[Deactivated]: ahh but has God every nominated them as His representatives, or could it be a false claim by an evil organisation?
Teacher : Give Me a sentence with the word 'catalyst'
Me : In my country, a lot of people are Roman Catalyst!
If you take things to their fullest logical conclusion, Covid-19 would turn all followers into pathogen carrying lepers and scare the non-believers away from ever becoming Christian. It would be like a reverse passover or reverse Noah's Arc flood where God wants to start again and things get better for the non-christians.
Below are the practices that Jesus instituted.
List of mandatory practices:
Water baptism
Communion
List of common practices:
Evangelising the Gospel / proselytise to non-christians
Tithing
Church buildings (enclosed spaces full of hard surfaces)
Laying of hands
People infected:
Infants (low immune system)
Elderly people (the longest serving)
Healthy people (evangelists, seminary priests)
This book spreads dangerous, false information about what we know about the world and how it works.
Which parts of the book did you find dangerous?
The parts that talk about uncritically believing in things for which there exists no evidence.
That is up there with the most dangerous ideas one can be taught, especially when it is done to young children under threat of eternal torture.
Exists no evidence?
Uncritically believing in things?
It baffles me that people assume that believing there is no God is the default position.
Denying the existence of God requires a faith too. To declare God doesn't exist means you must have faith that God isn't in one of the trillion upon trillions of places in the universe that you haven't searched. On top of that, you then have to have an even greater faith that this world and everything in it happened by chance according to almost impossible odds.
By the way, there is a huge amount of evidence supporting intelligent design. And I'm not just talking about Christian scientists.
The message of Jesus Christ is one of love, forgiveness and reconciliation. I fail to see how love, forgiveness and reconciliation are dangerous.
Christians - Evolution is not real.
Cooronavirus.
Christians- "shocked face"
That doesn't even make sense 🤦🏻♂️
lol don't open that can of worms. The evolutionist's faith is extreme.
Don't confuse religion with God. No religion represents God.
Amen.
I hate these topics because I don't agree with anyone! Everyone is so blinded by their own prejudices.
The truth is out there, but it isn't found by regurgitating old beliefs.
The great irony about this discussion on religion etc is Jesus himself was highly critical of the religious establishment. He didn't seem all that fussed with religion either. It certainly didn't do him any favors. I don't even consider Christianity to be a religion. It's founder never said as such. So, as a Christian, I am more than happy to ditch the religion, and simply follow Jesus.
My faith is not based on some theory for the evidence of God, it's based on the person of Jesus Christ. The evidence for him is worth investigating. From non-Christian Roman and Jewish sources, in addition to the biblical accounts, you'd be a brave person to argue Jesus didn't exist or was crucified. The circumstantial evidence for Jesus' resurrection is strong. Then there's the anecdotal proofs. I lost my religion years ago.
I'm not sure what you're saying about Christianity not being a religion. Surely all the mainstream churches are just peddling their religion - or are you saying they therefore aren't actually Christian?
I'm not saying mainstream churches are not Christian. For the most part, mainstream churches are full of genuine people who desire to be people of love. I'm just pointing out that Jesus, the founder of Christianity, was critical of the most corrosive aspects of religion. If he didn't promote his movement as a religion, then why should we? Just asking the question.
I don't think he's peddling Christianity. He was providing clear and logical rebuttals against the mockers who would seek to tear down the claims of Pipers book
When did OZbargainers become such rabid bigots?
Since always
It baffles me that people assume that believing there is no God is the default position.
Denying the existence of God requires a faith too. To declare God doesn't exist means you must have faith that God isn't in one of the trillion upon trillions of places in the universe that you haven't searched. On top of that, you then have to have an even greater faith that this world and everything in it happened by chance according to almost impossible odds.
There is a huge amount of evidence supporting intelligent design. And I'm not just talking about Christian scientists.
The message of Jesus Christ is one of love, forgiveness and reconciliation. I fail to see how love, forgiveness and reconciliation are dangerous.
Do you believe God designed coronavirus to punish sinners?
How about dinosaurs? God only kills sinners and only man is capable of sin. Do you believe God designed and created dinosaurs, then obliterated them because he was imperfect and erred?
You say God punishes and kills sinners. Yet, I'm pretty sure the bible says nothing of that sort in the new testament. So well done for making assumptions!
Lol. It just rained fire and brimstone down on Sodom and Gommorah and turned sinning cities into ash and made them examples of what becomes of the ungodly.
It baffles me that people assume that believing there is no God is the default position.
Exactly.
In the beginning, the two popular choices seem to be either God existed or everything just existed and it all came to be how it is now because time had passed.
God = Extraterrestrials.
Ancient Aliens Season 1-15.
No magic just technology.
:)
So you guys would rather believe in magic.
OK - your opinion.
It baffles me that people assume that believing there is no Poseidon is the default position.
Denying the existence of Poseidon requires a faith too. To declare Poseidon doesn't exist means you must have faith that Poseidon isn't in one of the trillion upon trillions of places in the universe that you haven't searched.
Why is it that you deny the evidence for all other Gods other than the one of the culture that you happened to be born into?
I've said all I came here to say.
I don't want to waste any more time on pointless arguments.
I get it. You have something against Christianity/God/Something.
Not the first. Won't be the last.
That's fine. We can agree to disagree.
Actually I am generally curious as to how religious people justify their dismissal of the religions of other cultures and other time periods.
I would be curious to hear your answer. You must find yourself incredibly fortunate to have been born into the right culture in the right time period where you happened to receive information about the one true religion. Most people who have lived throughout history were not so fortunate.
@Lurk Hartog: It might seem that way to you, but to follow Christ requires a radical act of disobedience that goes against the prevailing cultural headwinds of the time and is by no means the default, easy way out. "Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it.
Matthew 16:24-25"
Throughout history, Christians have been mocked and scorned for their beliefs at best, persecuted and tortured at worst.
As you can see from this thread alone, you're not going to receive alot of love in coming out and confessing your belief in Jesus. It seems alot more popular and accepted these days to say you're "spiritual but not religious", Buddhist, New Age, Islamic, Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster or even outright Satanist. Anything but to call yourself a "follower of Christ". There is no more confusion and disinformation floating around at any other point in history than the one we're living in right now
Good to see the god of the bible hasn't lost his touch when it comes to unleashing plagues on the earth…
If it were true that God decided to drown all the sinners by making it rain for 40 days and 40 nights while Noah and his family were on the Ark. Does that also mean we are all related to Noah and his incestuous family having to repopulate the Earth?
Even better, there has been an unbroken chain of brain cannibalism and Kuru!
Incest was not bad back then as it is now.
Views change. Gays used to get hung now they can frolick wherever they wish
Best not go to New Guinea hey.
![[eBook, Audiobook] Free - Coronavirus and Christ by John Piper @ Crossway](https://files.ozbargain.com.au/n/56/529656.jpg?h=b35b125f)
At face value, it seems ludicrous of course! :) That's a great question.
When you start to examine the science of animal groups, most species today could have conceivably descended from a representative of their genus. Here's some further detail on some of the scientific options behind this view:
https://creation.com/how-did-all-the-animals-fit-on-noahs-ar…