What is God doing through the coronavirus? John Piper offers six biblical answers to that question, showing us that God is at work in this moment in history.
[Edit: The Kindle book normally retails at USD3.29 on Amazon US but is currently offered free through Crossway]
@Laziofogna: St Peter's gates will be full of Corona Spirits. The queue there will be worse than a nightclub. Or a Centrelink queue.
See that lady on Reddit who is covered in heyzeuss' blood (so she can't get sick) but still wears a seatbelt?
wow
Not liking the content of a book does not make it less of a 'deal'
I don't like the content of a freshly-laid dog shit on my front yard grass, but whether I like it or not, it'll never be a deal.
Post your dog turd deal to the front page, please. It would be nice to see some actual valid negs tbh.
You are delusional if you think this deal shouldn't be negged.
We should respect the opinions of others, they are free to do what they want.
We ate too many apples this is the result
How distasteful.
What is God doing through the caronavirus? I guess the same thing he/she did during the Holocaust.
This is a very interesting comment. It sounds like you think God ought to intervene and prevent every kind of evil and suffering. Wouldn't that make us 'robots' effectively? Humanity would not be able to choose between evil and good actions, because God would instantly stop any evil.
There is an alternative view of God, presented by the Bible. God gives humanity the choice between good and evil. That means if someone chooses to honour God, it is a true choice, not forced upon us. And suffering is the result of a world broken by sin, not caused by God (who originally made a perfect world without sin), but allowed by God. There are many rational reasons for suffering, from the minor (it builds character) to the major (it causes humanity to engage with deeper questions about life (How did I get here? What is the meaning of life? What happens when I die?)).
Send me a direct message if you want to chat further.
The usual response is "what have the innocents done to deserve these sufferings?" There was no free choice. And if I recall the standard answer is all of us carry the original sin, we are born sinners, and the price for sin is death. You must believe in god through JC for your true salvation.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/coronaviru…
It may well cause humanity to engage with deeper questions about life, or it may well cause a person to engage with questions about faith and religion.
It sounds like you think God ought to intervene and prevent every kind of evil and suffering.
You should reply to this comment which said, on behalf of god, that it is actively intervening in our lives right this moment.
No, in no sense did intervening to stop atrocities occurring does not make anybody a "robot".
If you saw someone assaulting a child, and you intervened, have you made them a robot because they don't have the choice to be evil? Or have you just saved a child from unnecessary suffering?
Now apply this to the Rwandan genocide, or the holocaust. If we could have prevented these atrocities we would saved millions of people from the most horrendous suffering. And no robots would be created in the process.
If I could stop a child from being raped, or a genocide from occurring, I would. That's the difference between me and your God.
Antiscience misinformation affecting public health is NOT a bargain.
Do you have any evidence for the claim that this book is "anti-science"? From other works of this author I have read, my impression is that he is a great supporter of science and technology.
Technology is not science either, but respectfully making good use of some scientific theories.
Science is a method which constantly happily proving itself wrong, with less wrong new theories replacing the older ones based on evidence, that's how we keep progressing, and that's what we need when taking new challenges like what we have today.
Having said that I am not anti-religion. Religion can play a positive role in its area such as the psychological side of human wellbeing or help in some disaster relief etc. But in the medical/health sector, no such bargains or miracles please thank you.
Agreed - I like your definition of science and clarification about technology.
However, I still don't understand why you think this book is "anti-science". If anything, your previous comment suggests that you think religion and science may be complementary, rather than opposed.
If you read the book, I think you will find that the author is not saying that "miracles" will replace science or medicine. The author is very supportive of all the current scientific medicine that is helping to combat the virus.
@WalletFullOfMoths: Thanks for the advise I should judge before I have read this book that's true. I did spend time reading the bible though and found it does not like to be 'proved wrong'.that's the reason I am saying such thing as anti-science.
I do not deny there would be truth in it but claiming it is all truth and should not be questioned is definitely not science. Again, I am not saying science is all truth or religion is all wrong, on the contrary, science claims no absolute truth ever. What I am trying to say is that religion should be kept private and should not try to be a public influencing power, especially when we are facing new challenges which need professionals doing trial and error learning, instead of believing without a doubt.
@cello: Can you explain "does not like to be 'proved wrong'"? Why is this different from any person or book?
"believing without a doubt" - the Bible never expects us to have zero doubts. It is pretty realistic.
Many people misunderstand the term "faith" when applied to Christianity. The modern definition is equivalent to "blind faith". However, the original Greek word used for "faith" in the New Testament, pistis, means "firm persuasion, to be persuaded of" and hence, "to place confidence in, to trust". The Bible never asks us to "just believe". There's always reasoning and evidence as a foundation.
It is quite interesting that unlike any other religion, Christianity does not have a foundation of a system of moral ethics, but on historical events. Disprove the resurrection, and you undermine the whole (1 Corinthians 15). That sounds easy, but there's a long list of people who have sought to show the world how silly Christianity is by undermining the resurrection, and emerged from their research convinced that there was significantly more evidence that it happened compared to evidence against.
If a Christian tells you to "just believe" implying blind faith, ignore them. Make sure you thoroughly analyse any worldview that intrigues you (including your current one), and see if it really is coherent, logical and consistent.
https://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/2012/06/08/how-should…
How is this a bargain, wtf?
I even can't be arsed voting negative. The admins don't listen, and they certainly don't act in a timely manner. If you want to turn your bargain board into a discount bible bashing board, have at it.
Should it be voted negative though? I can't currently find a reason to vote this offer negatively from the forum rules:
https://www.ozbargain.com.au/wiki/help:voting_guidelines
I would argue that trying to indoctrinate is never a bargain and that should be one of the laws. Based on the voting, lots of people here would seem to agree.
I don't run the OzB though, so I don't get to make that choice and I don't feel like being bitchslapped for not complying with the existing rules.
Indoctrination: the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.
Can you please explain the logic jump you made from posting a free offer of a book to … indoctrination? I don't see any evidence of people being forced to read the book, or to accept its contents uncritically.
I cannot fathom the intolerance of some people on this OzBargain thread to beliefs that are different to their own.
@WalletFullOfMoths: You have an agenda and I won't be changing your mind. You don't seem to even understand the irony of accusing me of intolerance while clearly being intolerant to me. In fact do you not seem to understand that there is a conflict of beliefs going on. You can't fathom a worldview in which a book attempting to convert someone to a religion does not belong on a bargain site. You only see your own beliefs being infringed upon.
@syousef: That's unfair - I most certainly will change my mind, given the evidence.
I don't follow your argument: you are intolerant of the free book offer (isn't that true - you want it removed?). How am I being intolerant of you? I have asked you to be more tolerant. I have not asked you to remove any of your bargain posts.
No, my beliefs aren't being infringed upon. I'm thrilled that OzBargain is open to all people and tolerant. A recently-released book that is relevant to the global crisis has been released, and people have the opportunity and freedom to read it if they want.
@WalletFullOfMoths: Look up separation of church and state. This isn't state. This is a bargain site. But the concept is similar.
There are people who do not believe in your god or any other god. To some of them, the religions being touted are offensive. Some may have been done great harm by those religions. They shouldn't be forced to confront your beliefs while bargain hunting.
Furthermore if you believe that those religions are a form of delusion, and that those who are offering the bargain do so because they stand to gain from it in some way, and if you agree that involvement in a religion can do harm, it doesn't come across as a bargain at all. Rather a for-profit brain washing mechanism.
It's interesting that charities and adult sites aren't allowed but political and religious posts are.
Havent laughed so much in years at the comments in this thread LMAO!
Atheists triggered. I like how many of the commenters have a shallow knowledge of Christianity and for some reason think science and religion are incompatible. I doubt this book has much to say that is useful and I have no intention of ever reading/listening to it but some of the comments above are just bad.
It's called "new atheism", and its lack of intellectual rigour, civility, rationality and emotional intelligence has real atheists spinning in their graves. It's basically the religion of non-religion, and its proponents regularly display a lack of understanding of science, religion and philosophy.
'Tis ironic, indeed, that the louder and more bullish the thuggery the easier it is to zone it out nowadays.
Religions in general are simply stupid, and cause a lot of suffering around the world.
Exhibit A, folks…
Exhibit b, constant fighting between Muslims in middle east.
Exhibit c, Israel and Palestine
Exhibit d, all the child sexual abuse from the church
Exhibit e, genital mutilation, both male and female
If you want some more I'm happy to keep going?
@brendanm: Amendment: its proponents regularly display a lack of understanding of science, religion, history, ethnography and philosophy.
@MattyD: It was a rhetorical question, of course they happened because of religion, I was merely pointing out that you cannot refute this.
@brendanm: Hmm, let's see here:
* unfounded and unoriginal assertions broadly condemning people of faith CHECK
* demonstrable lack of depth in understanding of historical events CHECK
* broadly obtuse generalities made as statements of fact CHECK
* passes off boorish and wildly misguided viewpoints as own thoughts CHECK
Yep, definitely a new atheist. It's not that it's fun to condescend to people like you (and in truth I'll definitely feel a little sorry later on), it's just I grow so bone weary of all the morons that crawl out of the woodwork to assert their intellectual shortcomings ON A BARGAIN FORUM.
@MattyD: If I had intellectual shortcomings, I would be so gullible as to believe in religion.
If not because of religion, what is the problem between Israel and Palestine?
Why have Shia and Sunni muslims been fighting for thousands of years, if not religion?
You aren't condescending, you are simply blinded by faith in a fairytale.
@brendanm: You're just hot, unoriginal bluster now sport. Your ignorance and intolerance (on a bargain forum, no less) speaks for itself. Peace.
@brendanm: Of course, we at OzBargain always believe in rational discussions that consider all the facts. I don't believe WW1 or WW2 were religiously motivated, and they caused 50-80 millions deaths. And when it comes to atheistic or agnostic government states, they certainly don't have a squeaky clean record:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_…
@WalletFullOfMoths: One could consider communism a sort of religion.
WWI and WWII are a very small number of wars over the last couple of thousand years. While there have been wars not based upon religion, there would be significantly less conflicts without it. It adds literally nothing, apart from making people feel like they aren't alone, and making some people/organisations incredibly rich.
@brendanm: That's the first time I've heard communism defined as a religion!
Significantly less conflicts without it? Sure. But please don't make the mistake of assuming most wars are based on religion. There's far more history and nuance about it than that. The deaths of the Spanish Inquisition pale into insignificance when compared with the secular French Revolution.
https://newrepublic.com/article/119698/religion-not-blame-al…
However, if you are going to be that flexible with the term religion, then this article demonstrates that atheism has a faith of its own, I guess. Regardless of what you think about the rest of the organisation's views, the arguments by themselves are compelling (which is how any argument should be assessed).
https://answersingenesis.org/world-religions/atheism/atheism…
I don't follow your argument - how is making people/organisations incredibly rich adding anything to help humanity? I think the opposite. The Bible says wealth is not wrong, but to hoard it, have it as an idol, and not help the poor is wrong. I'm sure we both agree that people misuse any system - whether religious or secular. The key is to examine the fundamental beliefs of any worldview, and see if they stand up to scrutiny. I use "beliefs" deliberately, because even atheism has "beliefs".
https://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/2012/06/08/how-should…
How can rational thinking be compatible with faith (considering faith calls for suspension of rationale)?
It depends on your definition of faith. The modern definition is equivalent to "blind faith", hence your question. However, the original Greek word used for "faith" in the New Testament, pistis, means "firm persuasion, to be persuaded of" and hence, "to place confidence in, to trust". The Bible never asks us to "just believe". There's always reasoning and evidence as a foundation.
It is quite interesting that unlike any other religion, Christianity does not have a foundation of a system of moral ethics, but on historical events. Disprove the resurrection, and you undermine the whole (1 Corinthians 15). That sounds easy, but there's a long list of people who have sought to show the world how silly Christianity is by undermining the resurrection, and emerged from their research convinced that there was significantly more evidence that it happened compared to evidence against.
If a Christian tells you to "just believe" implying blind faith, ignore them. Make sure you thoroughly analyse any worldview that intrigues you (including your current one), and see if it really is coherent, logical and consistent.
https://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/2012/06/08/how-should…
Can’t say I agree, but I appreciate your weighed and reasonable response.
What are your thoughts on Creation, time dilation and GPS dilation correction?
Is the first point related to the other two? Anyway yes I believe in creation, I think time dilation is an interesting phenomenon. Physics questions on this topic are often unintuitive and quite amazing. Einstein’s formulation of relativity really proves his ingenuity. I don’t have much knowledge on GPS dilation correction but I trust it’s important in maintaining GPS satellites
Well, we know time dilation and correction according to the atheist universe model. It's used for GPS and the internet countless times every day. No dilation constants exist for the Creation universe model. Do you think the Chinese GPS equivalent uses Christian Creation constants? Hardly, they use atheist universe model for their science, too. Funnily enough, the internet uses an atheist universe model to work. GPS and BeiDou both use an atheist universe model to work. There is no working internet using a Christian creation model. No working Christian creation GPS system. Christians don't even have a speed of light constant. You shouldn't be admiring Einstein, you should be questioning his blasphemous use of a speed of light constant, incompatible with Creation.
@[Deactivated]: I don’t follow the part where the limit on the speed of light is incompatible with creation
@[Deactivated]: Ah, I see now. Well I’m actually unsure. I suspect creation in 7 days didn’t take the standard 24hour days
@FireRunner: "I like how many of the commenters have a shallow knowledge of Christianity and for some reason think science and religion are incompatible."
Yeah. You gotta spend some time learning science. :p
@[Deactivated]: Sure c = 3*10^8, never said I didn’t. Though I don’t know why you think it’s atheist
@FireRunner: Well, the Bible ages the universe within Genesis to about 6000 years. Pretty funny if you understand redshift.
@[Deactivated]: Only if you take the 7 days of creation as literal 24 hour days. Which is why I said above that I do not believe this is the case
@FireRunner: Actually that 6000 years is derived from generations and genealogy. You have to dispute that part of the Bible, too.
@FireRunner: But when we measure the redshift of distant stars as being 9 billion light years away, that might require your 7 days of creation to be billions of years?
@[Deactivated]: The bible has never included the entire history of the Earth. Much of history is not included within it so how do you get 6000 years?
@exit: Garden variety young earth creationism. Do you disagree with the Institute of Creation research? Do you contradict the King James Bible? Blasphemy!
@exit: Sure. Adam lived to 930, too. Biblical facts, just like the Frognado! Methuselah lived to 969! Maybe that's where 'old as the hills' comes from…because he must have been.
Can you feel the science?
@[Deactivated]: Was it even established that an year involves 365 24-hour days back then? How can someone live for 1/6 of Earth's history?
@exit: Well, it's obvious that it's medieval fictitious storytelling and there is near-zero scientific merit in the Bible. You know how much water would be needed to flood the Earth up to Mt Ararat? A lot. A huge amount of the new testament wasn't even written until the middle ages.
It was only time until they took it upon themselves to exploit current circumstances. Not surprised but disappointed as usual
Thank you brother. Don't worry about the troll. Keep fighting the good fight. It will bless someone I guarantee you. If it only blesses one person it's all worth it.
May God keep you, preserve you and protect you for his glory.
And the LORD said to Samuel, “Listen to the voice of the people in all that they say to you, for it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected Me as their king. 1 Samuel 8:7
Yeah the haters can go screw themselves. Someone posts some free shitty steam game and it gets a billion upvotes then they release this and it gets tons of downvotes
So one person blessed is worth it despite tens of thousands of deaths??
Who died because OP post a deal? lol
Nice one placard - taking the OP's comment completely out of context! I think we can probably assume the "it" in "it's all worth it" is the vitriol that the OP has received for posting a free book that some people take offense to.
Do you think maybe cannibalism is the cure?
And as the LORD said to Jerimiah “And I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and all shall eat the flesh of their neighbors in the siege, and in the distress with which their enemies and those who seek their life afflict them.”
And I would like your opinion on those who die of coronavirus. Will they enter heaven? I feel like god has something against the disabled and afflicted.
"For any man who has a defect shall not approach: a man blind or lame, who has a marred face or any limb too long, a man who has a broken foot or broken hand, or is a hunchback or a dwarf, or a man who has a defect in his eye, or eczema or scab, or is a eunuch."
I can keep quoting if you like
The quote from Jerimiah is prophesy not a recommendation.
I'm guessing the second quote isn't talking physical ailments but spiritual i.e. sin is often symbolised with ugliness/deformities
Should we eat the people that die from coronavirus though? Doesn't seem very sanitary.
1) God can give you to the desire of your heart.
2) And we many stories of handicap people getting heal. That's really hateful lol
You can keep quoting if you want, so what you don't even know the context. Anyone can do that lol.
Some people I can give my opinion. Some I don't care. Thank you for showing you value my opinion since you asked. But sadly I don't care about sharing it with you.
Matthew 7:6
Post is about God Instantly Neg the deal. What is wrong with you people? You are all about accepting but then you are negging this obviously cause it has got something to do with God. Hypocrites
I negged mainly because of the crassly opportunistic nature of the material and lack of any 'deal' here. It is shameless promotion capitalising on people's anxieties. Seems like it was already available for free on the author's website.
However, to your point I don't really see anything inconsistent about people who are "all about accepting" negging when the author advocates things like the need for same-sex attracted people change, conversion therapy etc. You can argue about whether or not it technically qualifies as a reason in itself to neg but I certainly don't see any hypocrisy - I guess you just have a different view about what is an "accepting" mentality.
Based on a lot of the comments who read the book, the man is not writing the book for his own glory. He is genuinely writing cause he believes people need to change. Ok and I don't not know how you don't see the hypocrisy. People are taught about respecting people's opinions and beliefs but just look at the amount of downvotes and negative comments. There is no acceptance whatsoever by these people. Yet they always speak about equality and accepting. I really can't see any acceptance in these comments! The hypocrisy is bright as day
You just said "he believes people need to change". Yes, including his belief that gay people need to change, undertake therapy and so on. This is the opposite definition of accepting them as they are. Of course he and anyone else is entitled to hold unnaccepting views. But you should really not be surprised that many ozBargainers who accept same-sex attraction as normal would regard such views as just that, unaccepting and intolerant.
@werdplaya58: Is he writing in a nasty way? I would still say its respectful. He is still accepting gay people but not embracing it. There is a difference there. You look at the other commentators they are nasty and disrespectful. Far from accepting they are not even tolerating. I honestly think they just look at the post and say "cause it has God just neg"
@RetroMetro: I would argue that it is extremely disrespectful to advocate someone needing to undergo conversion therapy to "change" their sexual orientation simply because it doesn't gel with your beliefs. Please tell me what is at all "accepting" about that?
I will grant you that there are many posters who unfairly tar all people of religious faith with the same brush. But as I said my reasons for negging were not so broadly anti-religion, just that this is an (distastefully) opportunistic plug for a book that is already free.
@werdplaya58: Are people too soft if they can't take some person saying they need to undergo conversion therapy change. Its not like he's forcing anyone to do anything. He is doing it respectfully. And in the end its their choice. So i can't fault the man he's giving his opinion in a reasonable polite way. Then you look at ozbargain community and you see their behaviour. Quite disappointing.
@RetroMetro: I haven't seen too many comments here saying telling religious people that they need to go do some kind of de-radicalization therapy or un-brainwashing, but even if there are, your comment implies it would be entirely acceptable and "respectful" for them to do so.
@werdplaya58: I actually see worse stuff. Telling religious people to go screw themselves and their beliefs
![[eBook, Audiobook] Free - Coronavirus and Christ by John Piper @ Crossway](https://files.ozbargain.com.au/n/56/529656.jpg?h=b35b125f)
Italians are the same. I am like you but believers live probably an happier life waiting for heaven bla bla bla.