So basically I called Subaru asking how much they charge for the expensive spark plugs and service which will set you back roughly $1800 at Toyota and they do it for $900 because they have specialist tools and don't need to raise the engine, but they won't do it to an 86 cos it's not a "Subaru" even though it's the same as the BRZ. Anyone know if I can dispute this and if not, if there's a good Subaru independent that won't charge as much as toyota?
Cheers
The plugs are actually cheap. The process of getting to the plugs for the 86 in particular… not so much.
Not correct
NGK etc do not make an after market plug for the 86/BRZ yet, so genuine is the only option atm
Expensive-er, true, but not $1,800 expensive. Predominant expense is still labour.
Google says you can get plenty of aftermarket FA20 plugs tho.. as well as oem Denso plugs instead of genuine.
can tell you 10000000% in Australia there are no aftermarket plugs available as yet
@jimbobaus: Excuse my ignorance, but are these not what's needed?
https://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1…
??
NGK etc do not make an after market plug for the 86/BRZ yet, so genuine is the only option atm
You do realise car manufacturers don't manufacture their own components such as spark plugs? The 'genuine' spark plug is still made by companies such as Denso, NGK, Bosch etc.
Denso in this case are the OEM. If you buy direct from Toyota, you might get some 'Genuine Toyota' packaging/branding but the part is identical.
i am aware
but when sold by aftermarket they are cheaper and branded different that is what i mean
Actually, NGK and HKS both make aftermarket R type spark plugs for the 86/BRZ.
I literally work for a mechanic
Can tell you no Australian supplier after market plugs available
And while direct imported ones are most likely ok we won’t uae them in customer cars. We learned that the hard way
@jimbobaus: You started off saying that they didn't exist because the manufacturer didn't make them yet. You're now saying that they exist, but you won't use them.
@macrocephalic: A reputable mechanic won't order random shit off ebay and put it into your car.
They will go through well known, reputable Australian suppliers.
@macrocephalic: I guess jimbobaus made a wording error. I think he meant that it is not available in Australia.
As a licensed trader, he needs to source parts with AU compliance. It's the same with any licensed business - mechanics, pharmacist, surgeons, electricians…
Anyone know if I can dispute this
No. Unless they're discriminating against you on the basis of an illegal grounds (e.g. sex, age (over 45-ish), sexuality, pregnancy status, etc), they're free to not provide you with any service.
if there's a good Subaru independent that won't charge as much as toyota?
There'd be plenty. I'm not in Melbourne, but these guys seem to have good reviews and specialise in Subies. Edit: But if you're going to an independent, why not go to a Toyota independent…?
I mean, it's a Subaru and a Toyota through and through. And what makes you think Toyota can't service it? I thought the issue was just price?
which will set you back roughly $1800 at Toyota
@cille745: It's either something inherent to the design of the car - in which case going to a different mechanic wouldn't help, or it's something with official Toyota dealers' way of doing it (lifting the engine to replace spark plugs, apparently), in which case nothing should stop independent Toyota specialist independents from using the more efficient method, right? Unless I'm missing something obvious here…
Edit: I haven't negged you by the way - the boxer engine in the BRZ/86 do seem like a pain to work with, at least as it comes to spark plugs.
But it's not. It's a toyota. I think you are missing the point here
Yeah, the badge says Toyota, but it's a Subaru engine and it's built in a Subaru factory. I think the dealer is being silly but as per previous comments, they don't have to provide a service.
@FTTNope: It might just have to do with service manual differences - no matter that it might be mechanically identical, they might run into issues if they service the car in a way that's subaru service manual compliant, but not toyota service manual compliant. (caveat: not a mechanic, not even that mechanically inclined.)
@FTTNope: I understand that it shares it with the BRZ. I just was referring to the fact that the OP was feeling entitled to have it serviced just because it shares the same engine and driveline
They don't have to service your car if they want - and they can easily say they are not "knowledgeable" enough to service your Toyota. They are Subaru after all, even though the 86/BRZ are the identical? engine/mechanically wise.
Now, to find a good independent mechanic, see if there is a 86/BRZ online forum, and ask from there.
$1800 for a spark plug replacement, Holy MOLY, Remind me to never buy a 86
My thoughts exactly.
Same here. I was only just recently looking at one to buy as well. Dodged that bullet…
It's not just for the plugs, but the price is still stupid.
Why the cost?
Id be doing it myself, personally. You could hoist the whole motor and overhaul it for around the same money.
Lol there is no way you can "overhaul" an engine for $1800.
The cost is because you have to lift the engine to replace the spark plugs. $1800 is much too high though.
@brendanm: I just googled one, wow
http://gt86.com.au/forum/f26/thinking-about-changing-your-sp…
This is what you need to do to change your spark plugs.
Spark PlugA: REPLACEMENT
1) Disconnect the ground cable from battery.
2) Remove the air cleaner assembly w/hose.
(1) Disconnect the connector of the mass air flow and intake air temperature sensor, and remove the one
clip that holds the harness.
(2) Slide the hose clip and disconnect ventilation hose No. 1.
(3) Loosen the two hose clamps.
(4) Remove the three bolts to remove the air cleaner assembly w/hose.
3) Disconnect the hose assembly from the sound creator.
4) Remove the two bolts and remove the sound creator.
5) Disconnect the front oxygen (A/F) sensor connector (A) and rear oxygen sensor connector (B).
6) Remove the two bolts securing the harness of the front oxygen (A/F) sensor, and remove the two clips
from the stay.
7) Remove the two clips securing the rear oxygen (A/F) sensor harness.
8) Lift up the vehicle.
9) Remove the 12 bolts and seven clips to remove engine under cover No. 1.
10) Remove the seven bolts to remove engine under cover No. 2.
11) Remove the three clips to remove the front mat guard under RH.
12) Remove the two nuts and disconnect the joint pipe.
13) Remove the two nuts, two bolts and two compression springs to disconnect the exhaust center pipe assembly.
14) Remove the bolt to remove the exhaust pipe assembly FR.
15) Remove the two nuts and disconnect the joint pipe.
16) Remove the six nuts to remove the exhaust manifold sub-assembly.
17) Tie the joint pipe to the front crossmember using string.
18) Remove the nuts which secure the engine mounting to the front crossmember.
19) Lower the vehicle.
20) Remove clip (A) securing the engine harness to the engine hanger, clip (B) securing the battery cable
and clip (C) securing the generator cable to the intake manifold protector RH, and clip (D) securing the generator
cable to the fuse box.
21) Remove the bolt securing the harness stay from the intake manifold protector LH, and the two clips securing
the battery cable from the intake manifold.
22) Install the ST1 and ST2 to the engine assembly.
23) Remove the clip securing the bulkhead harness to the vehicle.
24) Set the ST1 and ST2 to vehicle in order to support the engine.
25) Turn the handle on the top of the ST clockwise, and slowly lift the engine from the crossmember engine
mount hole until it reaches the position where the engine mount stud bolts can be removed.
26) Lift up the vehicle.
27) Install the ST between the engine mount and crossmember.
ST 18632AA020 STAND ASSY
28) Lower the vehicle.
29) Rotate the handle on the top of the ST counterclockwise to slowly lower the engine.
30) Remove the ST (ENGINE HANGER) from the vehicle.
31) Remove the RH spark plugs.
(1) Move the lock lever in the direction of the arrow to release the three connector locks.
(2) Disconnect the four connectors from the fuel injector CM.
(3) Remove the three bolts and the fuel injector CM.
(4) Disconnect the ignition coil connector and remove the ignition coil.
(5) Remove the spark plug with a spark plug socket.
32) Remove the LH spark plugs.
(1) Remove the bracket securing the fuel hose.
(2) Remove the two bolts and collision protector LH.
(3) Disconnect the ignition coil connector and remove the ignition coil.
(4) Remove the spark plug with a spark plug socket.
@jake-sun: F me…. then you have to do the whole thing backwards to put it back again!
lol, just pay Toyata $1800 and hope they screw up then you can make them fix it property and negotiate a discount.
best option is to sell this white elephant… alternatively, pay someone else to take it off your hand.
@brendanm: $1800 is very much an acceptable charge to overhaul an engine
As long as it doesn't need machining/new internals, that'll cover bearings, gaskets, seals and labour
@Flinchy: Oh ok, well I'm glad you've decided that. As a mechanic, I can tell you that you are delusional.
Gasket set for Subaru's are around the $5-600 mark. Noone pulls apart an engine and doesn't give it a hone. You also don't just place used heads on without facing them or doing the valves. Labour alone is higher than your $1800. You also have all the tty bolts that must be replaced every time.
I rebuilt my yd25 not long ago, prices without labour, and at trade price were-
$1800 head and cams
$80 head bolts
$500 gasket set
$1000 timing chain kit
$500 in machining and bearings
$150 main studs
$120 rod bolts
$1500 injectors
$150 clean radiator and new top tank
$130 water pump
$300 approx in oils, coolant, thermostat, hoses etc
Add labour and normal pricing rather than trade to that
@devnull73: $1800 will not rebuild your brz engine, or most other engines, even doing it yourself, unless you enjoy cutting corners, and don't count the price of doing it again when your dodgy job fails.
LOL is this ozbargain?
Take it to an independent specialist
I love the general sense of entitlement in this place.
If you wanted to get Subaru to be "obligated" to provide you with a service, you should have bought a car from them.
the same car with different badges
Different badge = different manufacturer = different car
Try getting your local Porsche dealer to service your Skoda and see how far you get
Except the Porsche and Skoda will have zero or close to zero shared components, where as the 86 and the BRZ are mostly the same car and come off the same Subaru production line…
@brendanm: mostly stuff that doesn't matter, like general electronic parts, except for the EA888 engine in the Macan which is used in a few Skodas - but even then, it's a longitudinal rather than transverse engine there. That's as close as it would get. There are no other shared engines, no shared gearboxes or platforms between Skoda and Porsche.
@FTTNope: Must admit I haven't looked, but it's likely a fair bit of the hidden electronics is shared. The direction the engine is mounted doesn't really changed the engine itself. Lots of engines available in both east/west and north/south config. Whenever there is the same parent company, you are going to have far more than "zero or close to zero" parts crossover.
@FTTNope: Lots of shared electronics. I can see VW Audi plastic housings in the Porsches.
As for major mechanical parts, you're not wrong. Only the EA888 (fantastic engine) is shared between Skoda and Porsche.
The local Skoda did service the Porsche though.
Subaru manufactures both cars
My local vw dealership work on my classic Porsche, my vw and my partners Ford Fiesta.
Kogan tvs using Samsung panels
Samsung doesnt give you warranty on the tv
thiiiiiis
He's asking for a paid service not warranty related.
@TheBigShort: No, he’s ASKED for a paid service, which they have politely declined. Now he’s asking how he can force them to provide him with a paid service they have no obligation to provide.
@geech: So what was incorrect about my comment?
It's not warranty related therefore not really a good comparison by qwerty.
Now he’s asking how he can force them to provide him with a paid service they have no obligation to provide.
Sounds like servitude to me :/
@geech: Mate, I've never said once that I'm trying to force them, just making sure I've exhausted all options, I know damn well they can do whatever they want, am just puzzled as to why they wont
@cille745: I’m with you. Dealerships push hard to have customers use their service department.
You are trying to be a customer. Trying to give them money… seems odd that they don’t want it.
You just solved your own problem. Change the Toyota badge for a Subaru's.
/Thread
they won't do it to an 86 … even though it's the same as the BRZ
So why didn't you buy a BRZ instead of the 86?
Haha, maybe Subaru has to offer cheaper servicing so people will hold onto their BRZs instead of trading in for an 86?
Why would Subaru care if anyone holds onto their BRZ?
They've already sold the car.
@[Deactivated]: That was mostly a joke, but for brand recognition. The BRZ/86 are both more 'halo' cars than actual money-makers for either company; it adds to their street cred in having a 'true' sports car. I don't think either model sold in really big enough numbers to make a difference to their overall bottom line.
(This is also (imo) why there isn't going to be a successor to the BRZ/86 after Toyota announced the launch of their BMW-co-developed Supra; you only need one halo car at a time after all.)
BMW-co-developed Supra
Damn, I would have considered buying a Supra but BMWs seem to bleed money.
@abb: At least according to one account of the development process I've come across, apparently the BMW engine that's in the new Supra/Z4 went through a lot of iterations at Toyota's insistence to bring reliability up to their standards. I've no idea how reliable these reports are, but it seems like something Toyota would do.
@HighAndDry: Good to know.
The OzBargainer in me will probably settle for a second-hand Suzuki or something haha.
@HighAndDry: "apparently the BMW engine that's in the new Supra/Z4 went through a lot of iterations at Toyota's insistence to bring reliability up to their standards"
Er, this is Toyota you are talking here. You seem to be implying BMW didn't design an engine properly, if not reliable enough for purpose?
Not that BMW these days design things to last as long as the market thinks they should.
However, fair shake of the charcoaled kettle- Toyota are hardly looking deliver vehicles with a design life >7 years either. That's pretty much a stretch target for all mass manufacturers now
Few realise BMW began as an engine company, and was building engines long before before most thought about building any form of ICE. Let alone lead engine development for decades.
Perhaps appreciate that in engineering terms, Toyota spends much more of their development effort on testing than other companies tend to, but certainly not as much on design and engineering. Which is one reason they would certainly do a lot of testing no matter what the justification is. Not sure if they would have tested any differently than they normally do with Yamaha engines, or other engine suppliers for that matter. But they would test very carefully, as this new and different platform collaboration project is vitally important to their brand too.
I can't imagine Toyota uncovering quality or design flaws, but they would have tried and tested beyond design limits. However there was a rumour that the 'same' engines BMW is fitting to its version of the Supra (Z4) will be tuned higher. That indicates to me that they are relying on their dealer network to maintain the cars better in the field than Toyota might design its testing scenarios for
@resisting the urge: Haha, "bmw dealer network to maintain the cars better". I don't think you understand how bmw works. Long service intervals so it looks cheap to the people leasing them, then once the lease and warranty is up it just doesn't matter.
@brendanm: I know more than enough, thank you
You are confusing (the madness of) long service intervals (which are market and globally driven, and all brands are up to the same tricks with these, not just BMW) with quality of servicing which suffers from local management, attitudes, training, and so on.
The context of my comment was more around the problem that there are few dealers (here, in Oz) where you know the work being done is going to be done as you would expect, or better.
@resisting the urge: That's true in regard to the dealers. Has absolutely zero to do with the brand though. Mechanics at dealers are paid poor money regardless if the brand, good mechanics are at independents getting payed better money. Want a good job done, don't go to the dealer.
@brendanm: Indeed.
Except for brands that dictate how servicing is done. Others just provide technical info to varying degrees and let the local distributors mis manage the rest.
OTOH, others do, quite literally.
You seem to be implying BMW didn't design an engine properly, if not reliable enough for purpose?
Certainly not. BMW has brought us some of the best and most reliable sports cars of the last half century. But I don't think it's a exaggeration to say that Toyota reliability standards are on another level - not when their engines like the 2JZ can produce 900+bhp with no mods when it was originally 'designed' to only produce 318.
BMW can (and probably do) have world class stress testing and tolerance requirements. That doesn't mean Toyota can't, or don't, have even higher ones. Or, as your mention of different tuning suggests, Toyota might just allow greater headroom, which also leads to higher reliability.
@HighAndDry: Toyota Reliability? Hah! No-one runs a stock turbo on a 2JZ because (apart from being old) they all fail- whether it be vacuum lines, overheated turbos and melted bearings, cracks, etc.
What you see on youtube dyno videos is not the full story. Cracked pistons, melted rings, bearings, all kinds of nightmares happen to a small engine producing >500HP, and lots of them you see on dynos are in for regular rebuilds (oh sorry, no- 'upgrades').
The only reason a Toyota is considered reliable is because it is either maintained fastidiously or only driven on Sundays, just like any other car. Or because it becomes so undesirable it gets scrapped before it stops working. How many people do you see driving an old Toyota? All those zillions of 1980s ones are long gone. Even the 1990s ones are almost all gone now, and the 2000s ones are filling the scrap yards already.
But if you think the 2JZ proves Toyota better than other engines, perhaps consider why it is what it is:
2JZ was a turbo motor from the start (1991), by which time everyone else already had an engine to sell their faster cars. Toyota was in a position that it had to do something, so they made 2JZ as a motor that could take forced induction from the beginning. Toyota had no other chance of beating Nissan's coming turbo RB motors, to name but one competitor. And as it already had a technology debt it had been doggedly producing dull FWD Celicas as 'sports cars' for years, was having trouble selling A70 Supras because they too were uninspiring slugs which suffered head gasket failures amongst other things- and the factory was having trouble providing correct torque specs to their dealers.
At this point, and until about 2005, there was a stark contrast: BMW were selling cars that performed, were safe, light, and low on emissions. It didn't make any petrol turbo engines, and just didn't need to. They built the world's most powerful NI engines instead. These were so good, their customers didn't require turbos.
But before you claim 2JZs are 1/3 as capable as they could be with no mods, you should be aware that BMW built a 900BHP capable engine (the M88), and had it in mass production 13 years before 2JZ. Yes, there were people taking that, and making race versions with >900BHP before EFI was even a thing. And they were winning races, not just doing dyno runs and quarter miles.
10 years after BMW set the world on fire with 100Nm/1000cc NI engines, everyone had to up their engine performance. That's right, it took a decade for Nissan and Toyota to wake up and make competitive hi-po engines.
And as it took Toyota longer than Nissan to come up with something, Toyota had to do something big to compete. Which is why 2JZ was so good for modders: It was probably the first i6 designed for turbocharging from the start (not many 2JZ were sold in NI form).
Did they choose to build a lighter engine? No. A more efficient one? No. Instead, they built a sturdy one out of iron, that could be charged. Every car it went in became as heavy as a Skyline, and could not compete on economy, or efficiency like the light alloy engines everyone else was producing.
Anyhow, even today (not 1990 or before) a 2JZ will not produce 900+BHP without doing a lot of mods- and testing near or beyond destruction. High density fuel with a fuel delivery system at triple the capacity of the original would be the start of a long list. All they did with 2JZ was build an iron block motor for Forced Induction and test it, and get it right. Something no-one else did because- Before the 90s it was not necessary, and after the 90s iron blocks were too heavy to use as they impacted fuel economy, emissions- and sales.
Practically no-one else was building iron-block turbo engines in quantity at this late stage, so if a 2JZ wasn't done well, wasn't scalable and didn't perform, a company the size of Toyota would have been deserving of a lot of criticism. And they are, as they make a lot of dull, ugly products amongst the few that shine
@HighAndDry: Agreed, if the 150kw turbo 4 cylinder supra comes to Australia they know that the 86 will butcher its sales, cos it'll be at BMW price, not Toyota
@cille745: The whole project seems to have ended up coming from BMW's parts bin. Not sure how it can be termed a collaboration. The concept and design is actually quite mundane given the competition. There was no need to do anything like it from BMW's perspective either, as they have more than 10 cars (sports 1,2,3,4,6 and 8 series, as well as an M car of most of these) that compete in this space, and Z4 is just a low volume convertible that is tacked on to this range and of low importance. It is hardly any design/development effort for them to update Z4 as it uses common drivelines and other tech, so it looks like they would have done this whole thing a lot faster without Toyota being involved.
It must have been the brainchild of a useless manager trying to get his name on a big deal without realising that German Engineers are not easy to work with. But perhaps more so, neither are Japanese ones. It is no co-incidence that in the end it was a German-speaking Japanese who got everyone together to agree on how the project would proceed, or fail.
Ironically also, the Toyota interior may have been where the Toyota could have stamped their mark, and it may even be entirely un-Toyota (Eg it could actually be the thing that makes it nicer than the BMW, as modern BMW interiors are nowhere near what they used to be, often covered with glitz, chrome and peppered with crappy little buttons whose main purpose is to defy ease of use and ergonomics).
EDIT: Oh no, I just saw some pics. The interior looks like it came out of the current BMW parts bin too.
@resisting the urge: Didn't mean to seem racist there.
German and Japanese Engineers should be replaced by one concept: 'Wizard Engineers' followed by 'let alone Toyota and BMW ones, who would reasonably both feel at the peak of their professions (regardless of the reality). And neither of whom are likely to suffer fools or have boundless patience.
@[Deactivated]: Resale is a factor in some people's purchase decisions. The less there are for sale the higher the second hand price, and the harder a good second hand model is to find (or the more expensive) the more cars that they can sell first hand.
This is part of the reason models that are used as fleet cars often sell like crap in the private market.. big value drops put off buyers.
Neither are cheap, going by spark plug replacement costs
Substantial savings and a great learning experience.
TBH just put on a full header back system and did gearbox oil changed on my own and can't be stuffed
Further to my point below, you've DIY'd some other work for this car but you're worried about maintaining some pointless service record? Was the gearbox oil change you did done in line with the recommended scheduled service interval or did you do an extra one yourself after getting the scheduled change done at the dealership and receiving the stamp?
Honestly, at this point it seems that you've modded the car and you're so close to the 5 year warranty ending that I can't understand why you're be bothered about where you take the car for servicing, provided that they do a good job.
I do see your point but I'm back at uni very soon and just won't have the time unfortunately
The gearbox oil that comes with the car is actually pathetic to the point where the car would crunch into gears when cold. It's supposedly one of those 'lifetime' fluids, but I've had nothing but butter smooth shifting ever since changing it. Plus it was no hassle as I just did it when I did the exhaust.
I want to take it to Subaru or an independent simply because they are half the price and work with boxer engines all day everyday and can do the service without lifting the engine.
In true OzBargainer fashion, I waited 8 months to get the 86 I wanted for the right price. Checked 3 times a day every day and can tell you that the ones without a perfect service record sat there for that entire time.
In true OzBargainer fashion, I waited 8 months to get the 86 I wanted for the right price. Checked 3 times a day every day and can tell you that the ones without a perfect service record sat there for that entire time.
Maybe everyone else is doing what you did and waiting for a car to come up at the right price rather than obsessing over service records?
It's pretty difficult to gauge why the other ones weren't selling without knowing what prices they were going for. At the end of the day, no one wants to lose too much money on a car that they stupidly purchased at full price from a dealership, which probably dropped in value by least 30% as soon as they signed on the dotted line.
Exactly. Looks like a royal pain in the arse but certainly still do-able without jacking up the engine.
You are a (Mod: Removed Name Calling)
If you go to any service provider, they are not OFFERING to provide you with a service. It is referred to as an invitation to treat. You make the offer to which they can either say YES or NO. It's not discrimination - and over here it is very simple: WE are Subaru, we will NOT service your Toyota.
When you hear this - don't go and make a fuss about it. You simply say OK and not think geez can't wait to tell OZB about this.
I called a removalist company to remove all of my furniture from my 2 storey house, they said they didn't want to take the job as it's a 2 storey. How do I force them to take the job?
Write on Ozbargain
I hope you find someone who will do it, in the process of moving between single storey houses and that's bad enough.
Its more like them refusing you on the basis that your couch is made of leather rather than fabric, I agree that I may have been too forward by saying 'dispute' I was just wondering if there was any other way, and if there's not, Ill go independant
Geez I don't understand why everyone is so negative towards me about this. Calling me very silly, entitled and not deserving doesn't help anyone. I'm not angry at Subaru if they can't do it they can't do it, I'm just really puzzled as to why they won't, especially when they said that if I had bought it off them they would have done the service.
I came here to ask simply for the cheapest option which is to find a way to change their decision, or find an independent shop, which at the end of the day is what this site is about. Your comment literally contributes nothing to this conversation and is simply here to attack me for no good reason at all.
Wish you the best
Anyone know if I can dispute this
Doesn't that sentence alone sound entitled to you?
Your comment literally contributes nothing to this conversation
Quite the opposite. Maybe harsh and not what your want to hear, but it's true and you should thank for the education.
Will admit the first sentence was a bit forward, my bad, not looking to 'force' them into anything, just wanna make sure I've exhausted all options before I go independent. Wasn't trying to come off that way. Only talked to someone from service reception who quickly bolted off to ask someone and came back with a blanket 'no'. I don't know who they talked to and whether or not they represented all of Subaru
Thank someone for calling me names and calling it education? That's a bit dumb
@cille745: Stores don't legally have to serve you, as long as it's not discrimination. That includes your above example of leather couch, they can do that, they have rights like you.
You were educated on the offer part and what your entitlements. are (none here really).
Sometimes a person needs to be told if theyre being silly so they know better. Don't cry too much over that word.
No. They are not under any obligation to service your car.
The plugs are actually cheap. The process of getting to the plugs for the 86 in particular… not so much.