Wrongly fined and paid a year ago

Lsadboi on 04/01/2019 - 18:40

Hi all. I was fined about a year ago for not stopping at a stop line, and paid it off. However I drove past the intersection today (first time since then) and it has come to my attention that I was incorrectly fined by the police. I am aware it has been a significant period of time since, but is there anything I can do?

Fine background
I was travelling North bound on Anzac Parade, waiting at the traffic light second in line to turn right into Franklin Street at Matraville NSW. The traffic light turned green, and I turned onto Franklin Street (Note that the North and South bound traffic on Anzac Parade are separated by a thick median strip and turning onto Franklin involves going through a break in the median strip).

The police car behind me flashed its lights and the police officer said I did not stop at the stop line/sign and was consequently issued an "infringement" notice. I did not challenge at the time as I thought I was in the wrong, and paid.

Driving past today, I noted that there is no stop line, and the stop sign is one with the three black dots and at this point in time, the lights were functional and had turned green already? So I believe I was wrongly fined.

Again, I am aware that this was a while ago, but just wanted to know if there's any route I can take? (The review option on SDRO is greyed out as it's past the deadline).

Thanks in advance.

Automotive

Comments

  • bobbified on 04/01/2019 - 18:47
    +21

    How do you know the signs haven't changed over the past year?

    • sadboi on 04/01/2019 - 19:05
      +1

      I can't be certain, though I do have some factors that lead me to believe the signs haven't changed.
      * I was second in line, and the car before me didn't stop either
      * I have consulted with a colleague who lives in the area and they said they aren't aware of any sign changing
      * It just generally doesn't make sense for there to be a stop sign there

      But assuming there hasn't been a change, is there anything I can do?

      • [Deactivated] on 04/01/2019 - 19:14
        +30

        Can't be certain, that is the end of this then…

      • bobbified on 04/01/2019 - 19:26
        +15

        No chance then.

        Someone in the government already spent your few hundred dollars from last year on their breakfast.

        • sadboi on 04/01/2019 - 19:28

          If I was able to confirm this, via the dashcam method or asking the council as mentioned below, how would I go forward from there?

          • bobbified on 04/01/2019 - 19:37

            @sadboi: I must admit that i don't have a definitive answer of where to ask, but I would start by writing to whatever agency you paid your money to in your home state.

            Although, I don't like your chances since the opportunities for a review and/or a court hearing were already provided to you on the back of the infringement notice when it happened. They even advise not to pay while the reviews are in progress. Once it's paid, the matter is usually considered settled. The deduction of demerit points also occurs upon payment.

          • [Deactivated] on 04/01/2019 - 20:25

            @sadboi: Did you have a dashcam in your car and still have the footage?

            You have no ground for the police or council to review this.

        • mattyman on 05/01/2019 - 16:59

          If you think people working in government get to spend tax payer and traffic fines on breakfast you are quite delusional.

          • bobbified on 05/01/2019 - 17:12
            +7

            @mattyman: Most of the money from traffic offences go into consolidated revenue.

            Where do you think the government gets money to send people on these overseas "study tours"?

      • mgsydney on 05/01/2019 - 14:41

        Your points are fair enough but do you think someone will just accept them and agree to refund you? Who would do that and under which legislative power?

    • pegaxs on 04/01/2019 - 22:37
      +42

      How do you know the signs haven't changed over the past year?

      Here is the Google Maps image of the intersection that was taken in July 2017. It's exactly as OP described it above. Notice no stop line and the stop sign is only valid when lights are on black out.

      Going back over the Google Maps history photos, it seems the sign was placed there some time between June 2013 and July 2014.

      • bobbified on 04/01/2019 - 23:32
        +5

        Nice work!

      • idonotknowwhy on 05/01/2019 - 23:59

        That's awesome! I didn't even consider looking there.

    • dazzledayz on 05/01/2019 - 09:15
      +6

      The stop sign would only ever come into play if the traffic control lights at the intersection were out.

      As this was not the case at that time, there would be no need to pause during a right hand turn as described.

      I can see no reason why the signage would be subject to change given the nature of that intersection.

      If you definitely entered the turn on a green signal you would have been perfectly within your rights to complete your turn.

      This wouldn't be the first time a copper got it wrong though it is difficult to see how as the intersection is clearly signed and quite understandable so I can only surmise that the officer noticed something you have not.

      As mentioned later in these posts, you need to obtain a copy of the part A (police officer's notes) concerning the incident (via Revenue NSW).
      (this would be a "must" as you will get the officer's side of the story)
      You can then compare his version of events with your own.

      Also, as noted later on, you have left your run a bit late as the normal course of events involved challenging the fine in court before you paid.
      When you pay your fine you are technically admitting guilt but this is never the end of the story.

      Get in touch with Service NSW and request a review of the infringement notice.

      If you get nowhere with them then contact the NSW ombudsman and ask for advice.

      You may have some luck with a review by the Law Enforcement Conduct Commission as the officer in question seems to have been deficient in his duties according to your account of the facts.

      If all else fails then seek legal advice.

      • Montyjpm on 05/01/2019 - 14:40

        Thank you for a very nice and detailed advice/explanation for the op.

    • Cobalt_ on 05/01/2019 - 11:55

      Google maps usually has a back in time feature which may help. Sometimes there are gaps of several years depending on how often they map that area

  • Ocker on 04/01/2019 - 18:48

    Snowball chance in hell - sorry!!

    • sadboi on 04/01/2019 - 19:07

      :(

      • idonotknowwhy on 06/01/2019 - 00:02

        There's hope. I'm terrified of snow, and probably destined for hell, so there's a good chance that snowballs will be there to torment me one-day ;)

  • Godric on 04/01/2019 - 19:10

    No

  • Melb69 on 04/01/2019 - 19:14
    +1

    You paid the fine.

  • LikeMike on 04/01/2019 - 19:18

    I've seen a a couple of cases of give way sign changed to stop sign then back to give way (road maker line changed also). Have you tried street view in Google maps?

    • sadboi on 04/01/2019 - 19:24
      +2

      Street view has it as what I saw today, only the stop with three black dots.

      It doesn't make sense for a stop sign or a give way sign to be there. When the right turn light goes green, all other traffic is red at that intersection so there wouldn't be anything to stop/give way to

      • Kolkolnut on 04/01/2019 - 22:15
        +1

        So I went onto google maps and had a look myself. If you angle the streetview in certain directions, you can see the three black dots on the stop sign, with the images dated between Nov 2015 - Oct 2017. So it seems if at present it still has the three black dots, you can almost assume the sign hasn't changed. It's even better if your infringement was in that time period.

  • Quantumcat on 04/01/2019 - 19:23

    You can try and find dashcam footage from people going through before and after the date of your infringement to see what signs were there at the time.

    • sadboi on 04/01/2019 - 19:26
      +1

      Thanks for the suggestion, though that sounds to be a tremendous task, not sure where I would even begin?

      Would contacting and asking the council whether signs have changed in the past year help?

      And even if I do get confirmation that the signs haven't changed, where do I go from there?

    • [Deactivated] on 06/01/2019 - 10:23

      4 years ago - no chance.

  • spackbace on 04/01/2019 - 19:31
    -1

    You paid = you accepted the decision.

    • Quantumcat on 04/01/2019 - 21:09
      +4

      Not true, you can pay and then dispute and get a refund - there was a thread about it here a short time ago (< 2 months)

    • tranter on 04/01/2019 - 21:22
      +5

      Not true. You can still request a review in NSW even after the fine has been paid. A timeframe is mentioned, I think 60 days from date of penalty notice. There may still be an avenue to review even after deadline has passed.

      • chumlee on 04/01/2019 - 21:25

        Review based on what new supporting evidence? 12 months has passed, OP needs to confirm with RTA & council no changes been made etc

        • John Kimble on 04/01/2019 - 21:27

          It makes no sense for a normal stop sign to be there. A black dot one makes sense though.

        • tranter on 04/01/2019 - 21:28
          +1

          @chumlee
          I'm not even referring to that. Just saying it's not true what Spackbace said. That's all. :)

  • aussieprepper on 04/01/2019 - 20:22
    +1

    I am lost how can you be traveling north and turn right? Where you heading towards the city? In that case there is no lights to turn onto Franklin st?

    Unless you mean Franklin st in Malabar? The street in front of Pioneer park? In front of Malabar shops? There is a stop sign before crossing the other side of Anzac parade?

    • sadboi on 04/01/2019 - 21:00

      They're both the same street, and it's right on the border of Matraville and Malabar so my description makes sense. I don't see why you're kicking up a fuss.

      As I have said, it's a stop sign with three black dots.

      • susmind on 05/01/2019 - 14:39

        Your street view didn’t start with the green turn stop lights so didn’t fully explain the intersection.
        Made it confusing for me until John Kimble’s post(next) with it’s street view.

  • John Kimble on 04/01/2019 - 20:37
    +9

    Anzac Parade
    https://goo.gl/maps/LfDKKAwJmFx

    Looking at Google maps, I'm with you OP. There is a right turn arrow light there, which if green would mean the southbound traffic would have a red and you can go straight through. The stop sign would be there for only when the lights aren't working.

    I would call them and ask for an exception to review (if they even do this), despite being past deadline, if not only for the fine to be refunded, but for your demerit points to be removed.

    If they say this is not possible, ask to speak to a manager or something perhaps? Still don't like your chances… They are ruthless…

    • bobbified on 04/01/2019 - 20:50
      -1

      …ask to speak to a manager…

      Government sector manager who is probably on a power trip because he works for an "authority". I can imagine what the response would be already: "There's nothing we can do".

    • sadboi on 04/01/2019 - 21:01

      Thanks for the google maps reference, I was on my phone before so couldn't get a direct link. That's the spot.

      I have sent in an inquiry from the penalty notice page, will see what they say.

    • Flying Ace on 05/01/2019 - 00:21
      +3

      Bloody hell what a confusing intersection. Why is there a "One Way ->" sign on one side of the road and on the other "No Right Turn"?

      But I also agree - what is there to stop for? The STOP sign is for when the lights are out, isn't it?

      • kiitos on 15/03/2019 - 13:47

        Yeah, it's intentionally confusing to keep us riff raff out of the eastern suburbs.

  • Sage on 04/01/2019 - 20:40
    +1

    I didn't know about those signs.
    I think it should be clear to anyone hearing about this that the sign could be easily mistaken for a stop sign.
    That alone is enough proof. Though I can't say I know anything about disputing it after you've paid.

  • theHMASfriendship on 04/01/2019 - 20:46
    +1

    Stop living in the past

    • Montyjpm on 05/01/2019 - 14:44
      +3

      You would fking change the tune if it were you mate!

  • chumlee on 04/01/2019 - 21:13
    +3

    Contact Denis Denuto Legal Services

    • lovesabargain77 on 04/01/2019 - 21:49
      +3

      Dennis will sort it out. He'll just tell them it's about 'the vibe'

      • Munki on 06/01/2019 - 19:29
        +1

        Don't forget it's also Mabo.

  • JimmyF on 04/01/2019 - 21:32
    +1

    the effort/cost to get it reversed if you are correct, isn't worth it. Just let it be.

  • [Deactivated] on 04/01/2019 - 21:37

    I'm not sure you can as you never went to court. In WA if you took it court you could lodge an appeal within 14 days, after 14 days you can apply to the supreme court to extend the appeal period, then if succesful you could appeal it.

  • askme69 on 04/01/2019 - 22:00
    +7

    Ring Revenue NSW and ask for a copy of the Part "A" to be emailed to you. This will have the officers notes of the offence included, which will detail exactly what he witnessed.

    • Thenarrator on 06/01/2019 - 11:19

      are they obliged to send you part a?

  • pegaxs on 04/01/2019 - 22:34
    +4

    If you were the second car back, there is no way you could have stopped on/over the stop line. The only stop line is the one where you queue to turn. Continuing through the turn, unless the lights were out, then you would have to stop there at the "traffic lights out stop sign", but this isn’t the case as you said the lights were working.

    Damn, someone on here who is actually innocent for a change and it may be too late to assist. Why cant we get more genuinely interesting cases like this, instead of the "I parked in a clearway, find me a loophole" threads we actually get…

    • askme69 on 05/01/2019 - 00:02
      +7

      not correct

      • garetz on 05/01/2019 - 03:00

        https://finefixer.org.au

        • askme69 on 05/01/2019 - 09:43
          +4

          I am the person who makes the decisions. I have done this for 15 years.

          If it has been incorrectly issued, it does not stand. regardless of time frames.

          I have had goods taken by the Sheriff and all been returned after investigation, to get to the stage of the Sheriff back in the day was at least 18 months.

          Assuming this is NSW. Other states are not so generous.

          • Montyjpm on 05/01/2019 - 14:47

            @askme69: Agreed. If you are innocent then you need to call the Police into question otherwise there would be no accountability.

  • Pharos5 on 05/01/2019 - 01:27
    +1

    How much was the fine? While I think you could win, government departments are notoriously slow and inflexible to unusual circumstances.

    Juice may not be worth the squeeze.

    • sadboi on 05/01/2019 - 09:06
      +2

      $330, but not so much about the money but the circumstances - see below comment

  • EightImmortals on 05/01/2019 - 08:09
    +1

    Don't like your chances, you had an opportunity to question the fine at the time of the alleged offence so I suspect your statute of limitations has well and truly expired by now.

    As for getting money back out of the government: "Once you have their money, you never give it back."

    You could try sending the info to the corporation (vicroads etc) from google from pegaxs post above and they might, if you are REALLY lucky be nice to you but I don't think you have any legal avenues open. You could call a solicitor and ask the question over the phone though the cost might not be worth it?

  • HeWhoKnows on 05/01/2019 - 08:12
    -6

    Firstly its a year too late,
    Secondly by paying the fine you admit guilt.
    And there is your answer.

  • DarkOz on 05/01/2019 - 08:41

    Let it go, let it go…

  • Hithere on 05/01/2019 - 08:57

    Just drive through a stop sign somewhere else and you are even - as long as you don't get caught.

    It's too long since the alleged 'crime' to do anything about it.

    No one will still have dash cam footage and you've admitted guilt by paying the fine.

    Move on and it'll be a story to tell your Grandchildren when they get their licences.

  • sadboi on 05/01/2019 - 09:00
    +11

    Thanks everyone for your help, especially pegaxs confirming that the signs have not changed since. As many of you have said, it's been a year and I probably should just let it go. Normally I would agree and wouldn't even have posted here about it.

    However I'm quite ticked off by the circumstances, especially now that it's proven I was in the right.
    During our exchange, the police officer knew I was not from the area (so I would be unfamiliar with the signage), said that was one of the most accident prone intersections of the area (so he would be familiar with the intersection and signage), and made it out as though he was just letting me off with a warning (so I wouldn't argue at the time). This leads me to believe the cop was a grub and I was victim of hitting fine targets.

    So I just want to exhaust my options that are available (within reason and effort).

    • minniethemoocher on 05/01/2019 - 12:05
      +3

      I think you should contact them and write a letter. I don’t see any harm in taking it through the appropriate channels.

    • mgsydney on 05/01/2019 - 14:45
      +5

      "This leads me to believe the cop was a grub and I was victim of hitting fine targets."

      Make sure to include this in your correspondence.

  • farknos on 05/01/2019 - 10:43
    -1

    in WA paying a fine is an admission of guilt, end of story. i am guessing the same will apply where you are

    • ozdesi on 05/01/2019 - 15:18
      -2

      WA requires revenue the state is in debts, OP is in NSW revenue rich state so why will same apply to him?

      • salekhard on 06/01/2019 - 11:27

        Incorrect, WA is literally digging themselves out of the hole they've put themselves in, and are doing quite well considering the previous governments spending record.

      • farknos on 06/01/2019 - 11:47

        interesting economic view, nsw revenue rich from the gst they sponge off the other states that turn the money over.
        i think the same will apply in all states, the government are not big on handing money back.

  • UFO on 05/01/2019 - 15:02
    +2

    Cops argument will be that the light wasn't operating- hence the requirement to stop at the stop sign.

    Your argument isn't about sign placement, its about whether the lights were active at the time.

    You'll therefore have to prove the lights were working, not whether the sign has changed in the 12 months since you've paid the fine.

    It's a lost cause mate.

    • lachhelix on 05/01/2019 - 18:34

      My thoughts exactly, I would think you'd have to be able to prove that the lights were in fact operating - the incident report may say the police note the lights weren't operating therefore the stop sign was in effect.

      I'd never even heard of conditional stop signs down here in VIC (I had to Google it!)

  • jaybmate on 05/01/2019 - 18:24

    If you missed this comment, have a look at this, someone who seems to have some authority on the topic:

    https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/430007#comment-6808288

    • askme69 on 05/01/2019 - 21:15

      Cheers.

      Get the Part A first and see what the officer has done you for. Then report back on here.

      If it's been incorrectly issued, OSR may take up your case, depends on who gets it. But if they won't, ring the duty sergeant from the HWP's LAC as they like ticking boxes. They will investigate for you.

      • sadboi on 05/01/2019 - 23:52
        +1

        Thanks, will call on Monday

        • Thenarrator on 06/01/2019 - 11:23
          +2

          tell us how u go and update for future references

  • peterpeterpumpkin on 06/01/2019 - 11:51
    +4

    As a NSW resident I thank you for your contribution.

    But if you want to do me a real favour, contest the fine if you've been wrongly fined. If people put 1% of the energy they spent whingeing about problems into fixing those problems we'd hear a lot less whingeing.

    What if it was your only driving offense? So not only do you pay the fine but you forfeit the discounted licence renewal? How many other people have been wrongly fined in the same spot by the same officer? And if it's such a dangerous intersection as the officer described, then something should probably be done about that too.

    "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

  • sadboi on 07/01/2019 - 15:19
    +2

    Update
    Called Revenue NSW and requested the Part A - she has sent it but apparently it takes up to 5 days for it to land in my inbox…

    She also mentioned that given the time period to review/go to court has lapsed, it is "highly unlikely" they will re-review. Told me the only thing I can do now is wait for a reply to my enquiry and go from there.

    • John Kimble on 07/01/2019 - 15:45

      That's some slow email servers haha

      • sadboi on 07/01/2019 - 15:49
        +1

        Guess we will meet here again in 5 days time…

    • askme69 on 07/01/2019 - 16:48
      +1

      Emails are sent in Batches after midnight.

      The court option is no longer available. OSR can send a report to the LAC Commander asking for a review. They don't have to, but i always do if my research into looks like it's an error. If they won't, contact the Duty Sergeant or Commander for the HWP cluster directly.

      • sadboi on 07/01/2019 - 19:50

        Let's hope my enquiry goes through you

  • askme69 on 15/01/2019 - 12:56
    +1

    Have you received the Part "A" yet?

  • jaybmate on 20/01/2019 - 17:28
    +1

    Any updates?

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