From Australian Conservation Foundation website.
We'll mail you these beautiful stickers
Let everyone know how proud you are to be part of this campaign! We’ve stopped more than 25 banks. We’ve stopped the $billion loan. Next we’ll stop the mine and we’ll stop coal.
Does this mean a vote liberal or labour free sticker is a bargain?
The vote Labour would have to be on UKBargain.
I'm starting a political sticker movement you see. Have to change the name to Australian spelling
YAWN..
Doesn't seem like a freebie if giving so much info away.
According to moderator any free sticker is a deal even if it is of lowest morale standard.
"What a shame! Have we really lost ourselves?
Shame on us, shame on humanity, shame on Ozbargain community." - Free Stickers
SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!
Whats wrong with Adani? Investment into Australia is good for everyone. I will take their $$$.
barely an investment by anyone's calculations and more of a handout in return for bribes
You know the government taxes everyone from corporates to employees right? They say when a $100 note changes hands 3 times it ends up back in the governments pocket. The handout will help create jobs that will be taxed. We will have another business in Australia that will pay tax. When the business and staff spend their earnings or handout it will generate GST. The earnings of their suppliers will create more income which will create more taxes, jobs.
Business aren't so hard hit that we need to invent busy work to fill the gap. What safeguards are there that this multinational will pay tax while every other multinational can still use loopholes to not pay tax? How do we know that they will really generate the amount of jobs claimed? I'm not making a statement on the Environment, only that the Economics of this project don't stack up.
Honestly just handing out the cash to these would-be employees so that they can re-spend it in the economy and tax it back is a much better Economic proposition than funding and giving favours to Adani.
@The Land of Smeg: It's not about businesses being hard hit. It's about generating growth in the economy.
It's not that corporations don't pay tax. They don't pay what they should. So if they make $100 of profit they should pay $30 in tax. They pay $15-20 depending on how they are set up. They deliberately set themselves up to not have to pay $30. No one gets away by not paying tax. Its the media that sensationalizes everything and most people cannot comprehend what is going on.
You forget that GST is raised on Sales, not on profit. If Apple is selling iPhones for $110 and making $50 in profit they have already generated $10 in GST even if they don't pay tax on the whole amount. They can pay royalties to Apple in the Bahamas but only to an extent. They can't shift all their profit there. ATO will be at their door the next day Auditing the company for deliberate tax avoidance.
@El Grande: In theory that is the basic idea, but there are no safeguards to assure that this will happen in practice. The amount that they will actually employ is questionable as well.
@The Land of Smeg: That is the practical example, not theory. That's how Apple evades taxes in Australia. ATO cannot say you can't pay royalties to another company. If they do it would make a bigger hole in the law than what they are trying to plug.
In theory, if you leave your house you can get hit by a car. You don't lock yourself inside and never go out again. Let Adani come, something good should come out of it.
On the jobs front, everything is done in good faith. If they can have Asimo miners in 10 years time everyone would lose their job.
@El Grande: That's the thing, Adani are not here in good faith. The whole scheme stinks to high hell. Trickle down economics is bullshit. Even if have 1000 employees who spend money, the amount of GST revenue collected from that is nothing compared to the amount of subsidies Adani and their executives receive over what is truly a poor investment.
@The Land of Smeg: Employes pay income tax. Most miners are some of the highest tax payers in 40-45% bracket. Executives are in 45% bracket.
There will be jobs to support the miners. Cleaners, cooks, dry cleaners, grocery stores, servos you name it.
You are also forgetting the infrastructure that will be built to sustain them. Employment there as well.
I can't understand why you think Adani is not acting in good faith? Is it because it's an Indian multinational? Multinationals are Multinationals they only have one nationality $$$$$
@El Grande: It's because the project needs to have such huge subsidies for it to even make any sense, and even with that it's quite dubious. It is not an inherent problem with multinationals/<race or country> companies.
An analogy to your example is like making an Industry to collect sand from the Desert. The Desert sand is almost worthless, but all there are so many indirect benefits because the government and pumping all this money into it and some of it trickles down to a few workers.
@The Land of Smeg: On the scale of things the money will be a small portion of the pie. It's not like the government is giving the pie and Adani is cutting and giving away the pieces and keeping some for themselves.
1 Billion is nothing over the life of the project. It will generate Billions in export, GDP and infrastructure. That means more foreign exchange as well.
@El Grande: Still part of the trickle down economics argument. Demand for coal is going down, and the infrastructure is only useful for Adani, no secondary benefits.
I am not a racist. I hate them all :)
Now where is my popcorn… this will be a long night.
Ok, maybe we should start here and start individual posts for all of these.
The point isn't that this may not be valuable or not, the point is that if we accepted these free stickers or especially political ones or products that are looking to get value out of you through a freebie, this website would be inundated with subjective freebies that a minority consider valuable. Leave these things for the forum section, not the deal section. Secondly how is this a 'deal'? it's a freebie for something that is a 'borderline' product or service. The point of posting guidelines is to avoid an infinite of useless points, shouldn't they be amended to avoid freebies like these appearing?
Free Council stickers
http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/live/waste-and-recycling/…
http://www.ryde.nsw.gov.au/Environment-and-Waste/Waste-and-R…
Free email accounts
gmail.com
yahoo.com
outlook.com
Free ABC stickers
https://www.abcfriends.org.au/index.php/product/abc-friends-…
Yawn…
Not an argument. Come with something smarter next time.
Yawn…
I don't know the Myki sticker freebie (https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/300249) was pretty popular and I'm sure quite a few people are glad it appeared as a deal and not a forum post.
The free email accounts is obviously a completely separate matter since most people know about them already and free email addresses are readily available, easy to find and most people know how to find them.
The free council style stickers have been done before without too much complaint, specifically AGL (https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/246254) were giving out free stickers for no door knockers and that went out fine.
You need to be more specific about what you want the guidelines to be. You should be raising this in the forums though as the mod pointed out.
No stickers or posters unless they are a product you would normally pay for (i.e. A band sticker, a movie poster etc.). The elderly may not know about free email accounts.
If I was Adani I would offer everyone who requests a pro-Adani Sticker an Eneloop Battery. Then sit back and watch everyone support the project :D
But they’d need taxpayer handouts to do so
Adani can mine anywhere in the world. Where they are mining is amongst the remotest parts of Australia. What they are mining is a low-value resource which has next to no value for us. The wages here are astronomical compared to other countries. I think a bit of motivation is not a bad thing provided they can see themselves making a profit which I am sure they do as they are not running a charity.
Yeah, they’re not running a charity, but desperately need charity to operate….
I love coal.
Coal is our second most valuable export (behind iron ore).
dfat.gov.au/trade/resources/trade-at-a-glance/pages/top-goods-services.aspx
13%. Be careful what you wish for when trying to stop coal mining in Australia. We need a globally competitive replacement for that hole in exports. Just hand waving about 'innovation' like our prime minister loves to engage in is not going to do it.
You don't see a problem with that?
(profanity) off greenies, stop living in fairy land
Yawn…
Would everyone protesting be happy if someone other than Adani built the mine? The focus is all on Adani, not on the mine, so it's a free sticker attacking a company, not a mine.
People are against it for various reason.. Government giving the loan when it cant be sourced privately.. Which means no one thinks its economically viable. Then theres the whole environment thing. So given all the facts id have to be against it unless you can give me a convincing argument for it.
Id have to say no to the sticker though.
It has everything to do with an overseas Industrialist that has zero concern for Australian environment…so it could have been Adani or someone from China….same thing…
Bargain - a thing bought or offered for sale much more cheaply than is usual or expected.
So now we get an idea of just how many miserable sods there are on Ozbargain - people who don't give a stuff about the world around them!
This is news to you that the majority of people are self absorbed & self centred?
They just reconcile the cognitive dissonance created by said such statements by simplistic responses such as “well maybe we should go back to living in caves” or “it was mining that gave you your comfortable living” or “it was mining that allowed you to type on that electronic device right now”
These people aren’t into metacognition. It’s easier in life to be ignorant….
A freebie that also supports an important cause. Thanks for sharing OP :)
The most un-ozbargain deal ever seen.
Really??
Yawn…..
this is political bullshit
Yawn…
How on earth someone could reply like this for all the post he doesnt like…
Ha ha ha
You should see the SBS FB page. It's full of people like Bluberry who reply "yawn" when they can't argue against a truthful statement that goes against their beliefs. It's quite hilarious hahah
AFAIK The one below is the current record of a lone activist furiously responding to everyone's comments
Check the thread with 66 responses
I dont agree
“No politics please” says everyone negging this deal. This isn’t politics, this is our future. No wonder our planet is fkt!! Mindless sheep classifying any environmental crisis as “politics”. There’s a 97% consensus on climate change among qualified scientists and you won’t trust them, yet you’ll give equal footing to a corrupt multinational corp who will happily destroy the earth to fill their pockets in exchange for a few temporary jobs. The very definition of stupidity.
Almost 100% of scientists didn't believe Einstein and they turned out to be wrong. Just because a large group of people believe something doesn't make it right/true.
Firstly your Einstein claim is false. Secondly there is overwhelming proof of human-induced climate change, so the consensus has nothing to do with being a “large group of people”. It’s almost the entire global body of peer-reviewed journal publishing researchers.
"It’s almost the entire global body of peer-reviewed journal publishing researchers."
The other 3% are the ones who fiddle the figures and retrospectively change the data?
There is % figure to say how much humans had contributed to climate change. Climate change is natural phenomenon and we can't stop it.
If we stop coal mining whole Australia economy will collapse, people will be jobless, house market will collapse and people will not able to pay mortgage, banks will become bankrupt and so on. How would we recover from that?
@AshFon: you’re right, it would be crazy to ditch the entire coal insustry overnight. We need to gradually transition away from coal - demand will dry up eventually anyway. We can be a world leader in sustainable power generation amd automation and export that to the rest of the world. It’s going to happen whether we like it or not so may as well get in there and take a nice big piece of the pie instead of peddling our dirty coal from the Gallilee basin.
@bohdud: I agree this is going to happen in future. I am from Adelaide, SA Gov s already moving towards clean energy with all those solar panels, wind farms, tesla batteries, etc. I support green energy, but this will not solve world's problem and Australia unemployment problem for today. Today we need to create more jobs and boost our economy. Australia is already moving towards recession and if we don't ack today things will be worse (financially).
So we need to keep digging today and keep pushing transition at world level. Other parts of world are still relying on coal energy as they can't afford clean energy.
Can you PM me or comment why you think a recession is coming. I'd like a bit of knowledge on this. Cheers AshFon
@jared444: I found this good article that talks about Australia's economy and mining. This does not mean recession will hit us next year but it just means that without mining we are slowly moving towards recession.
http://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/australian-economy/au…
I'd agree, I'd even claim the reason why we haven't gone into a bust yet is because of the housing bubble. Residential construction has held this up and now that residential construction is starting to take a nose dive, now public infrastructure is the focus.
I think you need do your own research first instead of half baked knowledge.
Australian coal is cleaner(your 97% scientist will agree) compare to alternatives people going to burn for their fuel(fossil fuel, dirty coal , tree wood).
Countries like India & China has half of the population of the world , they will require energy source , either trees / diesel or clean coal. Take your choice & let us know which going to help more.
Nuclear Energy are far more cleaner but I haven't seen any of these greenies fighting for it (politics may be).
Also find out , how many of large group of people will turn of their aircon for a day to save planet.
Clean coal is a marketing term. There’s no such thing. Also the “choice” of power sources you fabricated is an illusion.
You touched on the biggest problem of all: overpopulation. That is a massive issue for the coming decades.
I think nuclear could be an interesting stop-gap until renewables reach maturity.
You have to agree that general consumption and fossil fuel use at accelerating levels will eventually cause civilisation to implode on itself, even if you don’t care about the environment.
As said above , check your fact.. Don't get half baked knowledge…
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-27/fact-check-is-australi…
Also biggest problem is not population but greed of western countries which make problem worse.
Most of so called developed countries polluted earth best they can in early 19th/20th Century.. They didn't think of any country which didn't match their skin color.
We still drive / sell V8 cars, none of the developing countries use them. We change mobiles/tv every so many months. If you want to stop pollution start from home and than give lecture to someone else.
Again try live without aircon/electricity for few days than think of giving someone lecture about pollution.
@winfan: Lol well done. This is directly from the article you referred to:
“while Australia's coal had traditionally been of a higher energy value, and therefore higher quality, new coal mines being developed in the Galilee Basin in Queensland would produce lower energy coal. It's a low quality deposit, which is why it's never been taken in the past.”
Secondly, you’re right about consumerism and greed. Overpopulation is definitely an issue however. China is starting to see a dangerous combination of massive population and skyrocketing consumerism thanks to the rise of their middle class. It’s good they can have better quality of life, but we need to find ways to do it sustainably.
@quog
Don't get half baked knowledge
https://www.worldcoal.org/sites/default/files/resources_file…
you missed the point big time. @bohdud was claiming there is no such thing is "Clean Coal" .
My point is we can help these Asian countries by supplying better quality coal & Clean coal technology compare to letting them burn wood / diesel fuel. It will help earth more compare to all this bullshit propaganda.
As of 2014 , China used 79% coal generated electricity , compare to Australia @ 78% & India at 68%. (Coal what we use for our electricity doesn't grow on tree, it comes from mining).
Google is your friend. Help your self and do some research instead of typing "LOL".
@winfan: you really like the term “half-baked” don’t you? It’s in every single comment from you haha. Maybe time for a new catchphrase ;)
Please quote a reliable source that states this 97% consensus please.
Although I believe in climate change, I'm becoming more sceptical of it. Especially because of people like you who have political agendas and warp facts or just believe what they hear because they like it. And we see this on both spectrum of politics. Here is why and I hope you actually read the study.
'We find that 66.4% of abstracts expressed no position on AGW, 32.6% endorsed AGW, 0.7% rejected AGW and 0.3% were uncertain about the cause of global warming. Among abstracts expressing a position on AGW, 97.1% endorsed the consensus position that humans are causing global warming.'
So that statement you made is simply false. So firstly it's 97 percent of abstracts and not scientists. Secondly there is a bias here assuming the 66 percent also agree with it who didn't comment on AGW.
So you've proven your argument wrong and don't care about the facts. These arguments are just as bad for climate deniers. Neither does this study mention whether those 97 percent of abstracts state whether AGW is a threat to human civilisation or something worth addressing.
So your bias is clear and not really worth discussing.
And let me ask you why is it large multinational coal and oil companies at fault and why is it any different to wind and solar power organisations funding climate change researchers?
So in all honesty. You're making this environmental crisis politics. Because you don't care about the facts and spread misinformation on what is going on. If you really cared about solving problems you would state the facts and not cover them in political and emotional speech.
@jared444: you can read that info with whatever coloured glasses you want to wear. There are plenty more sources of evidence for human induced climate change if you look around.
Secondly, you claim I have a political agenda. I don’t. All I care about is not wrecking the environment for short term profits. Make whatever money you want, just don’t permanently screw the planet in the process.
The reason multinational companies cause the most problems is because they take all the profits offshore and dodge the taxes they are supposed to pay. You don’t even have to go offshore to see the damage caused to our economy by shady dealings. Look at Qld Nickel and how Clive sucked all the money out then liquidated it. Adani is even less accountable to our country’s laws.
This is not about coloured glasses, it is clear you are making conclusions with hundreds of assumptions based an article.
You should stop buying anything commercially made then because nearly every product you buy somehow destroys the environment. You just choose to buy what you feel comfortable with. Stop buying plastic, paper and every other commercial product. Hypocrisy really. Based on this fact it's clear you believe what you believe because it makes you feel better, not because you care about the environment.
I care more about the wellbeing of people and whether they can feed their families and this is how we have progressed to this civilisation with less hunger in the world. You clearly don't care.
And about multinationals, again, instead of dodging questions, why is this any different to solar or wind businesses?
@jared444: it’s definitely important to improve quality of life around the world - it’s even linked with slowing population growth. It’s just pointless to sacrifice the environment to achieve this goal, when humanity’s continued existence and enjoyment depends on a healthy environment.
All the assumptions you’re making about my personal views are unreasonable. To say I don’t care about people’s wellbeing because I care about the environment doesn’t equate.
I have actually made a point of avoiding disposable / cheap crappy plastic products in recent years. There’s definitely a balance that needs to be reached as we work towards renewables, but mining the country’s dirtiest coal for short term gain is not the answer. Especially propping up Adani with a billion dollar loan and deferred royalties. At the very least, we should not be giving this company a free ride.
To answer your final point - any biased industry research is problematic, but at least wind and solar are part of future solutions. The rest of the developed world is looking beyond coal. We should too. China and India are choking on their own pollution - it’s madness to pretend we can continue this indefinitely.
"The consensus that humans are causing recent global warming is shared by 90%–100% of publishing climate scientists according to six independent studies by co-authors of this paper."
"From a broader perspective, it doesn't matter if the consensus number is 90% or 100%. The level of scientific agreement on AGW is overwhelmingly high because the supporting evidence is overwhelmingly strong."
John Cook et al 2016 Environ. Res. Lett. 11 048002
http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/11/4/048…
You're proving my point again. I don't care about whether it's real or not. I believe it is real and human caused. That study doesn't prove whether those 90% believe that we should action on climate change at the scale climate change spokespeople are suggesting.
And that second quote doesn't sound scientific at all. Sounds like an opinion article.
Why are all these articles from IOP?
@jared444: Regardless of whether it is linked to global warming, why pollute harmful cases when there are cleaner and cheaper alternatives? Also if you go to the Hunter Valley you can see the deforestation and erosion that is caused by mining.
Please list those cheaper alternatives.
The free market fixes these problems and you don't need government regulation. Political parties pitch these to those who don't know how the real world works to win votes. If there were cheaper alternatives you wouldnt have smog in many industrial countries. Do you think people like destroying environments and breathing crappy smoke everyday?
Additionally although I don't believe in your viewpoint, what makes you think if they can't build a mine here they won't go to another country that has it.
Australia has made it incredibly expensive for manufacturing due to environmental laws (and other laws), you know what happens then? They ship those jobs to another country and still pollute. You are fighting a cause you can't even win. You are practically that guy who throws your rubbish over the fence to your neighbours backyard buts it's a country instead.
You asked for sources on the scientific consensus.
An article published just days ago shows that even the IPCC projections are conservative. The business as usual scenario further modelled with a 93% probability of greater than 4C temperature rise by 2100…
"In particular, we find that the observationally informed warming projection for the end of the twenty-first century for the steepest radiative forcing scenario is about 15 per cent warmer (+0.5 degrees Celsius) with a reduction of about a third in the two-standard-deviation spread (−1.2 degrees Celsius) relative to the raw model projections reported by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. Our results suggest that achieving any given global temperature stabilization target will require steeper greenhouse gas emissions reductions than previously calculated."
Brown, P. T., & Caldeira, K. (2017). Greater future global warming inferred from Earth’s recent energy budget. Nature, 552(7683), 45.
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature24672
I can cite articles by reputable scientists that are climate change deniers. Provide a 95% consensus on the impact of global warming. There's probably a 95% consensus that transfats are bad for you, doesn't mean all believe they are so bad we should ban them.
A 4 degrees increase by 2100? By that time you don't have to worry. We probably wouldn't be using coal by that time as solar is cheaper by then. Solar has made huge leaps, but let the free market address the changes in market.
Political crap based on half baked theory…Not a deal..
Bargain….???
I don't have a dog in the fight in this, but this is clearly not the right platform for this.
Keep politics aside
wow. the right on OzBargain have gone apeshit over this deal.
Pretty disappointing that mature political discourse is frowned upon around here… this basically amounts to "Mods! Mods! I don't agree with the political opinion here, shut the deal down!"
Keep the political deals coming I say! (From any side of politics that is)
Maybe there could be a deal on free lumps of coal?
Good stocking fillers. Confuse the shit out of the recipient - a lump of coal plus “stop adani” stickers.
how is this even a deal by any means? should be in forums..
Its a policlal propaganda. No bargain
Will this create jobs for the local towns?
The stickers?
Probably not. The mine, yes. It creates jobs for the local indigenous community. Other projects may also create jobs but those projects aren't around.
It creates jobs for the local indigenous community.
Thanks for that.
So the mine will create Australian jobs that will benefit local Australians. Before we vote could you please tell us who won't benefit from this mine?
The major drawback will be the environmental effects. They have been drastically overstated but there will still be an environmental impact. For example, the Great Barrier Reef is often mentioned. There won't be any immediate impact on the reef but this will add to the impact climate change is already having on the reef. It should also be noted that the impact of this mine is tiny in comparison to the impact of other projects carried out by other countries, but it all adds up so no impact should be ignored.
If the Australian government funded it then there would also be a cost on the tax payer but I believe that idea has been scrapped and now it will be entirely privately funded.
@GunnerMcDagget: There’s also the deferred royalties. This would also be the largest deposit of the dirtiest coal that’s ever come out of Australia. Oh and all those jobs are just temporary, the potential impact on the reef is not. And that impact is assuming there’s no spillages, ship groundings etc.
So it's either the Great Barrier Reef or thousands of Australian jobs.
There is only one clear choice then.
Thanks.
I wonder what would the voting be like on free “Stopped Cage Eggs” stickers be?