From Australian Conservation Foundation website.
We'll mail you these beautiful stickers
Let everyone know how proud you are to be part of this campaign! We’ve stopped more than 25 banks. We’ve stopped the $billion loan. Next we’ll stop the mine and we’ll stop coal.
No way I'm putting a sticker on my member
I'm putting it on my tight bottom.
I am going to put it on my door, first thing it is free, second thing Adani is a cheater, and the last thing I would say STOP ADANI
This is not a deal or bargain…
agree, this is just a lobby group - no bargains here
Matter of personal opinion. To you its not a deal. To me it is a great free sticker and see nothing wrong with it. Its a free world.
The only bargain here is a free sticker but the sticker has virtually no intrinsic value and exists only to assert a contentious and highly charged political message.
We are here for bargains, not political messages.
@King Tightarse: there's nothing contentious about the fact that this mine shouldn't go ahead from a scientific perspective. Also solar has now been shown to be the cheapest way to generate energy these days when you consider all the costs of coal, and it's getting cheaper still. Makes no sense to let someone keep digging this stuff up to turn a buck and perpetuate the myriad of environmental issues.
@Jackson:So, if Solar is a cheaper way to generate energy, why would Adani have any interest in mining coal, rather than investing the money in solar?
It seems to me that they would only be doing this if coal was in fact a cheaper way to generate energy…Unless they need to coal in order to create the solar panels to generate cheaper energy? Or maybe Solar is not, in fact, a cheaper way to generate energy than coal?
Also solar has now been shown to be the cheapest way to generate energy these days
If that is true then why are we paying more on our electricity bill when switching over to green energy?
Couldn't have said it better myself 100% agree.
This shouldn't be on ozbargain. I also don't agree that they stopped banks. Banks decided by themselves not to get involved. A green organisation would have had little to do with the decision, more or less an economic/strategy I'd say.
@Brictoria: I believe Jackson means that it's cheaper when you take into account the environmental impact as a long term cost. Dollar for dollar coal is cheaper, but investing in a combination of gas, hydro and renewables is almost as cheap as building new coal stations in the long term.
Obviously you didn't read any of the articles earlier in the year that explain our sudden reliance on natural gas,which is quite expensive due to external demand.
It's arguable that if we had previously invested more in renewables we wouldn't have to rely on this transitional energy source.
That's also a casual fallacy you made there.
Thing is it isn’t free. ACF get your name and address, and will thus will be constantly directly seeking your support, starting with financial and then ratcheting ever upward to physical commitment. It’s just a free sticker now, then it will be chasing a small donation just like the GetUp! $2 campaign to get rid of Abbott666Satan.Then they will know they have you. Next it will be letterboxing your neighbourhood.
Before you know it you will find yourself mid summer stuck inside a smelly koala suit (a piquant mix of the previous eleventy occupants’ BO and yours) begging for donations in King George Square. Even the ACF babes no longer look that attractive after that experience.
I swear they must have taken lessons from Scientology.
@whooah1979: there, a few reasons for this, but some are because it was more expensive 20 years ago (and even 6 years ago) and because electricity companies have a level of freedom to charge you how they see fit. Also solar is cheaper now when taking into account the price if building and maintaining the power station, if the power station has already been built it might still be a bit cheaper. Also coal is subsidised by governement/the tax payer, so not all the costs are realised by the power companies
Just to address this idea coal might be cheaper than renewables.
Solar in open market conditions, with no subsidies in any fashion, is able to produce among the lowest costs for power generation in areas with good solar resources (sunny locations). There are cheaper "all in" power options, but not widely available. These include burning coal in an existing power station that you receive for free or was long ago paid off, or hydro if you have a good resource (few sites left, though), or even gas in a place like the USA with over abundant gas production and effectively nil export market.
So making a sweeping statement about whether coal or solar is cheaper isn't very straight forward, unless you say something like "new" power generation etc.
Citation for cheap new solar pricing:
http://reneweconomy.com.au/the-insanity-of-burning-coal-for-…
The next concern, that the Murdoch papers have heavily hyped, is the need for predictability (knowing the power is going to be available when required) and despatchability (being able to turn on extra power if there is an issue reducing other sources generation).
Coal is pretty good for predictability. The coal power stations go off line only around as often as the solar and wind resources fail to meet their output targets due to shading or stillness, but the way renewables have been deployed so far in grid scale projects in Australia has meant they were highly correlated - that is, grouped in locations that tended to experience the same weather issues at the same time. Coal doesn't have this, so unreliability can be bad, but because the issues don't hit at the same time in lots of coal plants it is manageable.
The down side is that coal plants must run continuously, even if there is no customer for their power. This happens for wind and solar too, but as they have zero cost fuel it isn't such an issue.
The next issue of despatchability. Coal, wind and solar are all poor for despatchability. It takes many hours for a coal plant that is "off" to get up to production heat, so most run at full capacity. And if you need power now it isn't much use to say I can have a coal plant up in six hours!
Solar and wind have similar issues, as they tend to be run at 100% with fuel (sun/wind) being the constraining factor.
In most of the world, and our policy here, was to fill the gap with cheapish gas generators that can be quickly ramped up. To motivate generators to leave a gas plant idle until needed, the market sets the rate based on peak demand in 30 minute windows. This rewards everyone who is producing power during the peak 30 minute slots, motivating gas generators and rewarding reliable operators. Unfortunately, like Enron did in California, there is some evidence of "coincidence" in when some plants go off-line to benefit some companies gas generators.
Double unfortunately, we built a bunch of LNG export plants in QLD, so the cheap gas the government planned on using to bridge the wind down of coal on the way to renewables isn't available.
As a result, people are looking at batteries (still costly, but getting better very quickly) and strengthening the grid to allow less correlation in renewables. Studies show (e.g. Mark Diesendorf) that there is enough lack of correlation across QLD/NSW/VIC/SA/Tas to run the east coast electricity market completely on renewables >95% of the time (with gas or battery making up the remainder). The costs to deliver the last percentages of demand via renewables get higher, as it requires excess capacity across the system, rather than the 100% usage common now. But if the last costly bits can be more cheaply supplied by gas or battery, great, we would still be 90% on renewables.
A further cost to consider with coal is the externalities. Climate change is one, but another that is less controversial is the substantial death toll that coal burning pollution provides. The UN estimates more than 7million people die early each year due to air pollution, a large component of which is fossil fuel pollution. (http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2014/air-pollut…)
Add in the risks inherent in the Adani plant directly for the environment (possible damage to the reef, extreme water depletion) and the economic concerns (tax payer subsidies, costing jobs in other mines) and this particular mine looks like a very bad idea.
@whooah1979: My friend, no matter what we'll be paying more and more everyday for energy. I can give you few examples as to where Australians keep paying no matter what..
- CityLink (the only way on SE Melbournians to get to city via freeway) supposed to be free after the lease period to TransUrban, I think form 2022. However they built it with just 2 lanes while knowing it's not gonna be enough. It's the longest paid car park ($12) in world during peak hours. Now they are adding just one more lane to it and get 30 more years to milk the cow
- Electricity is really expensive just because policy makers decided adding another layer between energy producer and consumer is going to break monopoly and make it cheaper. Go to your energy providers web site and to the page where they show the unit prices and daily service fee and compare that with what you pay. It's a massive few 1000% difference. Understand that retailer only print the bill based on the meter readings provided by the energy company and charge us the money. Actual energy production, distribution, grid maintenance, meter reading, etc all done by energy company for a fraction of the cost we pay.
(I learnt this first hand after getting frustrated with price hikes after installing a solar systems)
- Remember the Solar System Government rebate. Before Gov rebate panels were way cheaper. Once rebate was introduced the price of the systems jumped the same amount as the rebate. Later when Gov started cutting the rebate by 25% for every 6 months, the price of the systems dropped by that exact amount from next day. (we were all fooled thinking we are getting a rebate from Government. All the money went into hands of those who opens Solar businesses with the introduction of rebate. Soon after finishing the rebate those companies were shut down)
Sorry for highjacking this thread. The way Australians are being fooled and why we pay more for energy should be a different thread.
My personal view on energy is that we should go for green energy regardless of the cost, just because we are destroying this world by burning coal and digging dirt. We should preserve this world for future generations.
@Savas:
Free stickers!
I don't know. The real issue appears to be the Adani family's personal investment in the Abbott Point coal loading port. This means that even if the mine loses money (hurting Adani shareholders and meaning our $1b government loan is never repaid), as it is likely to do, the Adani family will still make many millions of dollars from the fees for using the port.
This split incentive means the normal economic conditions that would stop the Carmichael mine proceeding don't apply, if the company can find financial backers to loan the money to develop the mine, and money to pay for the railway.
Similarly, GVK Hancock and Waratah Coal have Galilee basin resources that are contingent on the rail line.
I'm on the fence as to whether these are now stranded assets, unable to be developed economically, with GVK Hancock's cost per tonne around $55 but adding on transport costs (and maybe royalties/taxes). Spot coal is in the $90s again, so they would stack up, but has been down to the $50s for most of 2015-16, which would have been loss making.
So I think the things that can stop the mine are stopping the Commonwealth using government money to fund the rail line, and pressuring other potential investors to not loan alternative funds.
So far, local banks have taken a look at the financials and happily chosen the "do the right thing" when they saw the risks involved (and yes, I don't think they would have made the same decision if the dollars were better). Influencing the government in Canberra is harder.
Labor federally has said they don't support public money to fund the mine, and Labor in QLD belatedly also agreed (after giving royalty deferments and other support).
Federal LNP (especially nationals) see supporting the mine as crucial to retain votes against one nation in that part of QLD, so are likely to support the mine no matter how poor the business case looks.
It is a very strange set of circumstances, where normal alliances don't necessarily apply - and mine workers who might have voted Labor are being swayed by Nationals and One Nation with the promise of more jobs, and farmers who might have voted National now bitterly opposed to the threat to their water supply.
For a long time I was confident that the poor economics and terrible environmental threat would kill it off, but now I am not as confident.
@whooah1979: because privatisation. Energy companies exist to make money and multiple energy companies have multiple extremely well remunerated management (not a criticism or an endorsement)
because privatisation.
Privatisation still doesn't explain why green energy is more expensive than conventional fossil fuel energy.
Green energy supporters claim that solar energy is cheaper to generate than fossil fuel, but that doesn't reflect on our power bill.
Our reseller had conventional fossil fuel energy, 5% green, 10% green, 25% green or something similar. Each of the green were more expensive the more green they got.
@Brictoria: Do your own research - Details of the alleged 15bn rupee (US$235m) fraud are contained in an Indian customs intelligence notice
This is why Adani has interest in our masses of coal
Agree. "Free" political sticker is no bargain just lobby group advertising. In fact not free as you have to supply your personal details to the organisation which I think is worth more than a sticker.
Agree with this, no place in OzBargain for this type of post
Thank you for following the voting guidelines unlike so many others on this post! This is exactly what you're meant to do if you don't agree with a deal.
Agreed, we're not here to take part in political propaganda.
But is it political?
Yes, it is. But it's being made to look like it's not.
Lol. My vote got revoked because I didn't think it was a deal either.
We do come here with our own political views, sometimes and some people with all the times.
Though I don't understand is this issue against a company or is it really so bad.
All I hear about Adani this Adani that. If it is really about the environment, can someone start the movement about other mining projects as well? Just to name one "Jiujiang Mining Australia".
I am not against any of the above-mentioned companies but can we be clear if we are up for environment without discrimination and do we also have a solution or workaround for employment these projects provide? For. eg. 1300 jobs in SA by Jiujiang Mining.
just my thoughts on the entire issue
I don't really understand, but why would the government invest in Adani when no one else will lend to them? I thought it would be better to follow China and put more development into modern technology like solar energy.
I dont think it is political at all. eg Easter Island
Should not be on here please remove
Why shouldn’t free stickers be shared?
Hows promoting an ideological and political message a bargain?
Free stickers.
The sticker is the bargain. Stop acting so precious.
Adani is a cancer to our country.
You support a project that aims to destroy our natural environment near the Galilee Basin. Anyone with that view deserves to be shut down.
@Bargaphile:
Sorry Bargaphile, we all know you are trying to sockpuppet for your friends that work in that horrible industry.
@smuggler: I hope you aren't voting for the corporate stooges that put them there: the Labour and Liberal parties.
So much for freedom of expression. I'm not a supporter of the project but other people have a right to differing opinions. This isn't about racism/sexism/homophobia/etc.
@smuggler: My god, I don't have a view at all apart from this not being a bargain, fascist much bro?
By your logic I could give you ‘Allah/Jesus/whatever God you don’t believe in is great’ stickers and you’d think they are awesome.
@jas0nt:
Those are free stickers id sign up for, doesn't matter which one.
Probably stick it on a mates car
The bargain is saving the Australian environment
Not a good looking sticker.
Only worth ordering if you support the cause, but it is unclear what it is promoting. They want to stop mining? Seems unconstructive.
Adani Carmichael mine has a number of issues, including potential large contributions to climate change, risk of pollution to the reef via port expansion, dubious economics that suggest subsidies will be required and the likelihood that if the mine begins operating it will drive some NSW collieries out of business, creating more unemployment than jobs it creates, as it is planned to be a largely automated mine.
The Adani company has a bad track record, which should give us pause, not smugness that our laws are so great they will automatically be obeyed.
The Adani mine economics appear to be contingent on a >$1b rail line, hence the argy-bargy about whether it should be subsidised by a government loan.
The reason this is important is because without that handout, the mine is unlikely to proceed, and the coal won't be dug here, or elsewhere.
The Indian government currently state solar is the most cost effective way to add to their power grid. Adani hopes we will provide a large enough subsidy to make coal from his mine cheaper than that solar - there is no other mine waiting in the wings to supply dirtier coal.
Your conclusion to support Adani s faulty.
You forgot to mention that it is being run by a foreign corporation who will no doubt reap the lion's share of the profit, will use cheap foreign labour and have even conned the QLD govnuts into building them a railway to the mine using a billion dollars of taxpayer money (plus interest?).
You really should get the facts straight in instead of just accepting left wing propaganda.
@rjstev: Sure. Can you point out which parts I got wrong and point me the truth of the matter?
Cheers
will use cheap foreign labour and have even conned the QLD govnuts into building them a railway to the mine using a billion dollars of taxpayer money (plus interest?). All false.
@rjstev: 'Maybe' :)
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-22/china-will-finance-ada…
"The Adani Group is close to securing finance for its controversial coal mine and railway project in outback Queensland, with an announcement expected in coming weeks that Chinese state-owned enterprises, banks, and export credit agencies are backing the venture.
Australian taxpayers may be let off the hook under the deal, which could mean Adani no longer requires an Australian Government-subsidised loan of up to $1 billion for the railway it needs to transport the coal to port."
"But China's money will come at the cost of local jobs.
Chinese enterprises and export credit agencies invariably require that materials for key infrastructure are sourced from China, effectively shifting work out of Australia and undermining Adani's claims its project will create many thousands of additional jobs for Queensland."
So last time I looked we were getting stung for the railway but looks like that 'may' no longer be the case. But it also looks like they will be using cheap foreign (Chinese) labour as opposed to locals for a lot of stuff.
Seems unconstructive
I think they're trying to stop construction.
Of course it won't actually do anything except cause an outbreak of smugness. The stickers are probably made from oil drilled in Alaska, sent to China, assembled with toxic chemicals by children and dioxins emptied into the local river. But hey they're free and they make you feel good.
How is this a deal? It's a political garbage.
Hello. How is it political?
yeah to 457 holders
457 holders of what?
visas
think of the qff signup bonus points…
It's that dude who made a forum post on here saying "help, I make $160k a year but spend all my free time signing up for credit cards and then cancelling to get a few reward points and now my credit score has tanked and I can't get any more credit cards…"
1,000,000's of jobs!
Theyre like a charity, just digging up goodwill & love & shovelling it everywhere over everyone!
Lets hoep that Adano love train come to Melbourne! Maybe they could build a highspeed rail line!
Well, sir, there's nothin' on Earth like a genuine bona-fide electrified six-car monorail! What'd I say?
MONORAIL!
I'm just a Hollywood producer and was casually browsing the ozbargain site when my oh my…. I believe a musical number/production can be made from that little line by cyssero.
i dont but people will get a job and specially indigenous community will be benefited from the mine
i have different view on that
Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk welcomed news that Adani's FIFO workers will be based in both Townsville and Rockhampton.
Ms Palaszczuk said it was a good decision.
"The hubs there for Townsville and Rockhampton are great news for those regional communities that have been struggling," she said.
"The unemployment rate is coming down there but it's great news to see that both of those centres will benefit from the mining jobs that will come."
Councillor Hill echoed the Premier's sentiments on the job creation.
"
Your message is pretty different to the actual reality. Premier Anna just wrote to PM to stop $1 billion concessional loan from NAIF. Check the news today.
A project as big as this shouldn't be dependent on loans from NAIF.
I wouldn't trust any multinationals for such projects anymore. They just simply promise a lot of things but end up acting like corporate polished human trafficking mafia in bringing cheap labor to Australia without even bothering to look out (let alone train) for aussies.
I would rather stick with aussie based contracts or companies.
Stop voting for the political parties that get paid a few tens of thousands of dollars to represent multinationals at the expense of everyone else in Australia.
SHhhh! If people spot the elephant it might make them nervous!
A project as big as this shouldn't be dependent on loans from NAIF.
Yep why should we (tax payers) be subsidising companies, let alone ones who'll take any profits off shore? We subsidised gas projects just so companies can sell it OS for a hefty profit and there's not enough for domestic supply. We should be like Maylasia & Indonesia. The citizens own the mineral wealth, they get it cheap, then the surplus can be exported for a massive profit.
We should we pay international prices for something we already own and produce locally?
It took thousands of people to build Roy Hills new iron ore port. Now that it's built it only takes about 40 people to run it. every 4 weeks they bring in 50-100 people for a few days to maintain it.
Companies and politicians like to spruik massive job numbers, often including the guy in a city 1600kms away who operated a forklift and loaded one pallet onto 1 truck that dropped an item off on the way through. Even though he was already employed loading trucks for the 100 other customers he had. So it's not like it's someone wholly employed by the project.
I don't know what Adani expect to make money-wise off this project but I wouldn't hold your breath on any of those sweet tax dollars coming back into our coffers either especially when they will employ the same tax avoidance strategies that most mining companies use these days.
Bull dust.
Where did you get money to print these stickers?
I didnt print them but its free so dont care.
People sure are on fire to support a dodgy Indian billionaire strip our country’s resources, including unlimited water resources from the great artesian basin.
I honestly wonder why there is such outspoken support for this project, which just about everyone not trying to win a North Queensland electorate thinks is a dog environmentally and financially.
There are a lot of self-interested, under-educated people. These are the ones who equate a new mine as meaning plenty of over-paid jobs and the return of the ultimate CUB lifestyle (FIFO, jetskis and Commodores) just like the last mining boom. They don't care about the environmental impact, they don't care about its viability into the future - it's all about NOW and how much can "I" get NOW.
Honestly I think most of them simply lean slightly right, and so honestly don't know anything about it except that lefties don't like it.
Where would they have heard about a billion in their taxes going to a company proven to have engaged in tax-dodging, bribery, corruption, and environmental disasters so bad they actually killed people, to support a project that's not even likely to turn a profit?
If you've seen old-fashioned free-to-air TV recently, there are all sorts of ads talking about how wonderful mining is because you own shares in it through your super, and it'd be a shame if anything happened to that…
(…And it's all the rage nowadays to unquestioningly and fervently support the awful things your favourite party does as well as any good things. It used to be Australians voted for the party they hated least; now there are more and more people who seem to think their side of politics is perfect and the other is literally hitler).
The local Indigenous community wants the project to go ahead. I thought greenies respected the first peoples on all matters?
Hope tax payers money is not paying for these stickers
From their front page:
“We are proudly independent and funded by donations from our community.”
Considering the majority or their community are funded by the government..
Lol bang bunch of unemployed drongos looking for their next 'protest'
Na..taxpayer money just goes to pay for 2 billion dollar stadiums, NBN, billion dollar defective hospitals etc.
This sticker is free!
Hospital is not defective.
The WA government is a mess.
But numties keep voting them back in all the time. Not just WA though, all government are a mess atm but they keep getting re-elected. What is it they say about doing the same thing over and over while expecting a different result every time?
I don't support the Adani mine but this is not a bargain by any stretch of imagination.
It's a no from me
Stick 'em on the doors of your local bank & member.