Can a hearse use a T3 lane (NSW) if the occupants of the hearse is the driver, a walker and a full coffin?
Is the answer the same for other states (who has transit passenger restricted lanes)?
Road Rules (AUS) - Hearses Using Transit Lanes
Ltsu-chan on 30/06/2017 - 11:35
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My question exactly.
I've never come across any stipulation in the legislation that passengers must be living. 🤔
Perhaps I should keep the ashes of my grandparents in the glovebox. 💡
The purpose of the transit lane is to encourage people to carpool. Unless the dead person can drive, i don't think a dead person is in the spirit of the transit lane.
Yes, but is their spirit in the transit lane? That's the question!
I think you can tell by the amount of spirited driving from the hearse!
Highly unlikely that a cop is going to pull a hearse over and issue a ticket. Not a good look.
If the driver of the hearse is braking the road rules I imagine some officers would issue a ticket.
Anybody who braks the rules should be punished. Living or dead.
Got me :(
Should be brakes not braks
How will you punish the dead?
hold your hearses…
shouldnt it be braykes?
Highly unlikely that a cop is going to pull a hearse over and issue a ticket. Not a good look.
What if one of the occupants isn't wearing a seatbelt? They could end up…
… as a crash test dummy! :)
Or a crash test mummy!
Usually commercial cars for eg Wedding limos, hearses will be exempted as long as they are not creating a huge impact to the traffic flow. The police turn a blind eye on these unless some one makes a complain.
Especially if this guy comes out of the hearse…http://media.comicbook.com/uploads1/2015/06/terminatorcoffin-141556.png
Couldn't you just chuck the Hearse over onto the driver's seat and say that you're just the passenger and is held hostage by the hearse. Since the rules dictate that those who breaks the rules should be punished. Living or dead.
Hearse = car. So no.
You made my day
Are you expecting someone to die soon?
Pure curiosity from driving past a hearse on the M1 motorway yesterday.
The T3 rules say they "must be real people". I don't think that a corpse meets that requirement.
otherwise they'd be issuing tickets to the corpse for not wearing a seat belt :)
The driver would get the ticket not the corpse. But the casket is fastened anyway.
A corpse is a real person.
Correction, it is an ex person.
What definition of person states they have to be alive?
@John Kimble: You could refer to the Acts Interpretation Act 1901 (commonwealth)
Section 2C References to persons
(1) In any Act, expressions used to denote persons generally (such as “person”, “party”, “someone”, “anyone”, “no‑one”, “one”, “another” and “whoever”), include a body politic or corporate as well as an individual. (2) Express references in an Act to companies, corporations or bodies corporate do not imply that expressions in that Act, of the kind mentioned in subsection (1), do not include companies, corporations or bodies corporate.Certainly in criminal law you refer to a person at the time of the offence in regards to the act and the statement of mind. a dead person has no state of mind. a dead person can not be charged for not wearing a seatbelt because they can not decide not to wear a seatbelf.
@altomic: Fair enough.
I suppose in terms of if a hearse is allowed to use the transit lane, we can just try to think logically about it?
The point of transit lanes (as far as I'm aware) is to promote car pooling to reduce the number of cars on the road and improve traffic flow. Eg 3 (alive) people in one car reduces the number of cars on the road by 2.
A corpse cannot drive themselves, so won't add another car on the road, but the mere fact that they are dead means they are being transported in the hearse in the first place. Catch 22?
Personally, I think they shouldn't use the transit lane, but I don't think many (alive) people would mind?
because they can not decide not to wear a seatbelf.
Neither can a baby, but they still need to be belted in.
@Scrooge McDuck: drivers/parents/carers have a duty of care towards a living baby. A corpse is more like cargo (but with respect for the deceased person)
It doesn't say they have to be current real people, so ex-real is fine too
*Was
Correction to yours, it was a person, it is an ex person. If it was an ex person they would have either been revived or dismembered/cremated
The T3 rules say they "must be real people". I don't think that a corpse meets that requirement.
That's entirely subjective and dependent on the cultures of the individuals concerned.
In some cultures, the dead can get married to the living.
Real, as in actual, not dead or alive. A real fur coat doesn't have to be alive.
Comes down to the definition of "Real". A dead person is real enough for me! Everyone can see it & touch it. It is someone's family or friend.
On the other hand if the law is trying to manage the use of blow up people (dolls) to stop the abuse of transit lanes rules, then use of the word "Real" in the law makes some sense.
Well, legally speaking the road rules refer to a "person" and the NSW Interpretation Act 1987 defines person as a natural human being.
The Australian Office of the Privacy Commissioner considers the term ‘natural person’ to mean a living human being as this is the plain English meaning of the term.
So therefore the hearse was breaking the road rules?
If the deceased corpse were considered a person under the road rules - perhaps it would need to wear a seat belt?
References:
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_reg/rr2014104/…
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_reg/rr2014104/…
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/ia1987191/…
http://www.alrc.gov.au/publications/8.%20Privacy%20of%20Dece…The Australian Office of the Privacy Commissioner considers the term ‘natural person’ to mean a living human being
But human beings are composed of human cells and non-human microorganisms in roughly the same order of magnitude. And presumably many of these cells continue to live after the host is deceased. 🤔
From the same Privacy Commissioner quote:
Whether the term ‘natural persons’ includes a deceased human
being does not appear to have been subject to judicial consideration in
Australia or the United Kingdom.I'd say that hearse driver might have a novel course of action to pursue if the need arises. If a corporation is a person why not a corpse, depending on the circumstances?
It's Weekend at Bernie's all over again
How would the cop know if there was a body in the coffin? They could just want to skip the traffic so carry around an empty coffin.
I know that's what I do in peak hour.
Yeah, anyone could just carry a coffin.
That they got on discount from Costco obviously ;)
What about (alive) babies/toddlers? We have one toddler and use the T3 lanes now, booyah! :D
The T3 rules state that a baby in a capsule may not be visible to traffic cameras, so you will likely be fined and then have to contest it.
I doubt you could prove that you had a baby in a capsule at the time if it was not visible in the photo, so I suspect that while technically you may have met the requirements, in practice it may not work out that way.
:( oh, didn't know that, thanks!
Luckily for me we don't drive much anyway and the ones near us don't really have cameras (I think).
What about a baby in the womb? 🤔
We used a T3 lane on our last kidnapping. Copped a fine because they can't photograph someone in the trunk.
:(
So unfair.
@D C:
We used a T3 lane on our last kidnapping.
Do two pieces count as two people or only one? Do you need all the pieces? 🤔
@Scrooge McDuck: Dude, it's a kidnapping, what sort of people do you think we are?
Ok, we occasionally cut off a pinkie or something to send to the family to show we're serious, but not cut them in half. You can't damage the merchandise too much.
Anyway, these days we tie them up in the back seat and try not to hit any bumps when pointing a gun at them. Copping a traffic fine is bad enough, but cleaning fees! O.M.G., those guys know how to charge. The Wolf does a good job, but still.
@D C:
My mistake. I come from the Somali School of kidnapping where you film all the proof of life shots on the first day and carry the body in a small hatchback. Food isn't exactly abundant in that place.
I doubt you could prove that you had a baby in a capsule at the time if it was not visible in the photo, so I suspect that while technically you may have met the requirements, in practice it may not work out that way.
AFAIK our legal system still operates on the presumption of innocence.
So the burden of proof should lie with the prosecution to prove that you weren't transporting a concealed baby.
Oh guilty until proved innocent for traffic offences. The other way around for murderers and rapists.
One more car in the T3 lane means one less car in your lane - think about it…
Unless you're in the T3 lane as well - but how often are they clogged with traffic???
It is a taxi of sorts, don't they have special plates? wonder when Uber hearse will launch? 20% off first/last trip, enter code: STIFF
I caught an Uber from the airport the other day. 20 minutes into the trip I tapped the driver on the shoulder and he screamed and swerved like mad across 3 lanes! After he calmed down I ask him "what happened?" He said "Sorry, it's my first day, I drove a hearse for the past 20 years"
It is stated in the law. An occupant is anyone from being born, to deceasing, so no a dead body cannot be an occupant.
The cops can ticket the driver.
I have also known the cops ticket an ambulance driver for speeding when it was carrying human organs, not a patient, so anything is possible.Did they also get ticketed for trafficking
Have they no heart?
Who knows..
One of the organs may have been a heartSince when do the Highway Patrol have a heart?!
One of the organs may have been a heart
Does that count as an occupant? How much of a person counts as a passenger? Do all the parts need to be from the same person? 🤔
"I have also known the cops ticket an ambulance driver for speeding when it was carrying human organs, not a patient, so anything is possible."
Wow, when did you see that?
So hang on, if we do a job and pop a cap in yo ass, then so long as you are still alive I can use the T3, but if you die I need to move out of it or cop a fine?
Geez, all these rules.
Almost makes me want to give up the thug life (the pay & hours are ok, conditions a bit so & so at times).
Cemetery express lane.
Those of us not from NSW, im assuming from conversation above the T3 lane is a multiple passenger per vehicle only lane?
This thread is dead funny!
Shameless
Don't be such a stiff
Of-corpse it is
Some quite spirited arguments though!
I wish I could upvote this question…. It's like weekend at Bernie's meets ozbargain's greatest legal minds
Ok, so I've come to understand this is as a great way to beat rush hour.
1) Sell your car
2) Buy this 1976 Cadillac hearse after bargaining the guy down to 12k
3) Grab a black hat and suit top from Vinnies for $10
4) Keep said hat/suit top in car and then wear while cruising on the T3 past all the suckers in heavy traffic.Or paint it ghostbuster style!
That would be awesome; but draw too much attention from law enforcement.
Six Feet Under or up in Smoke: the Aussie way of death, a book by an Australian Mortician wrote about this in his book explaining his encounters with police who tried to book a hearse in the T3 lane in Brisbane because the coffin with occupant didn’t count. (since the statement said "tried" i'm presuming the ticket was thrown out.)
Apparently they are not exempt from the road rules in NSW however there appears to be a technicality that a funeral procession should not be interfered with the argument being that the hearse unlike the funeral party following would be unfairly treated or discriminated against due to the design of the vehicle only being able to carry 2 technical occupants therefore interfering with the whole procession. Other states seem to be more lenient unless they are breaking an actual law like running lights speeding etc.
I guess dead or alive, the person still needs to be transported. Only on Ozbargain!
Very Australian, very antipodean!
It's not an ongoing question - you can't drive around with a body for long.
They've been announced as dead by a doctor. They are no longer a "person"
I'm not sure their loved ones would agree.
Wait wait wait.
So that solves my problem here: https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/316154#comment-4841946?
Technically still alive because no-one has pronounced them dead yet?
Woohoo, loophole!
So, for instance, if the cops pull you over in the transit lane and you are off to bury a body then you won't be done for a driving offence? - just asking :)
Bikies ?
This question has restored my faith in the ozbargain forums
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Well there are three people in the car, right? Or do they actually have to be alive?