Reasonable Extra Working Hours

ShazOz on 20/11/2024 - 06:44

My partner works extra 5 hours per week on average. There is no additional salary for these extra hours as the employer stated that the fixed annual salary already caters for reasonable extra hours. Overall the salary is below market average so free overtime makes it worse.

I don't believe extra over 200 hours annually are reasonable without financial compensation particularly when extra work is generally around at 7 or 8pm (work starts at 8:30am).

How many extra free hours other people are churning in name of reasonable hours? What can be done to tackle this situation?

It's not easy to secure new job due to ongoing tight job and upcoming Christmas period.

Education & Work

Comments

  • RogerLoger on 20/11/2024 - 07:06
    -6

    There is no allowance for free hours. Your employer is full of BS. You should be chasing a new job no matter that it is not easy. When you find it, make sure you get your full entitlements paid out.

    I probably should say I used to do extra time free, but it was totally voluntary and work I wanted to do and not in my list of paid duties. I was work I had a personal interest in and enjoyed doing. I was not asked to do it.

    • justworld on 20/11/2024 - 12:24
      +23

      Why is this upvoted? Depending on the industry and the pay (neither of which is mentioned in the OP), there absolutely is an allowance for free hours. That's what reasonable overtime consists of. Go ask any lawyer in private practice or management consultant if he or she works additional unpaid hours.

      You can't make an unconditional statement like 'there is no allowance for free hours'. Holy shit. What a stupid thing to say.

      • Gunnar on 20/11/2024 - 12:36

        There’s doing your hours and doing your hours if you want to get a promotion.

        Depending on where you work, you can do the bare minimum and get by fine. Just don’t expect to get anything from it apart from your pay.

        I had a director who did the bare minimum and kept to his hours. He never got promoted but did his work. Surprisingly he was also good at what he did (very rare). He was very happy in his place in life.

        • supersabroso on 21/11/2024 - 23:34

          The extra hours are not done for free, they are in investment in your future to get a promotion that will pay more for similar/less/easier work. Once you are happy with where you are in life, you can stop the extra hours as you don't expect to be promoted any more. Just note that there are actually a lot of jobs out there that pay overtime. Make sure you end up on one of those jobs if you want to earn the big bucks, there's no reason why you shouldn't be paid for the extra hours if you can.

    • pao2x on 20/11/2024 - 13:22
      +7

      Doesn't work like that. Even on wages there is reasonable unpaid overtime and that would depend on the industry, yourself and colleagues; not the manager.

  • randomusername2017 on 20/11/2024 - 07:16
    +7

    fixed annual salary already caters for reasonable extra hours.

    What does their EBA/Employment contract say?

    • ShazOz on 20/11/2024 - 07:43
      +1

      I don't think there is anything can be done from the contractual side but just wondering if it is a norm.

      You may be required to work reasonable additional hours outside your normal hours of 8:30am to 5pm including evenings and some weekends to meet the needs of the business. Your remuneration package compensates you for all hours and reflects the expectation that you will work such hours as are reasonably required to meet the needs of the business. You are not entitled to any additional payment for additional hours or overtime.

      • this is us on 20/11/2024 - 07:50
        +4

        That seems abusive to me.

      • EightImmortals on 20/11/2024 - 09:55
        +4

        Is your partner on 300K PA? If so then I guess the extra hours are fair enough.

      • jetblack on 20/11/2024 - 11:21
        +8

        They're pretty standard in my experience. I don't remember the last job I had that didn't have a "reasonable overtime" clause in it.

        There should however be better employee protections around the conditions of such clauses (ie. mandatory time in lieu, or pay).

      • Powershopz on 22/11/2024 - 01:04

        Accor?

      • connorlo on 22/11/2024 - 10:27

        I think the difference you need to look at is: if it occurred every so often then yep I would be ok with it, but if it is expected and expected every day/week then no. Having said that the above is in the contract, so I'd be looking for another job.

    • MrThing on 20/11/2024 - 07:54
      +6

      so you get more work from others

      this one trick companies dont want you to know

      • altomic on 20/11/2024 - 11:06
        +9

        I once worked at a company where I was given some of another employees tasks because "you get things done altomic, and are always up to date" .

        my manager was smiling as she said that , like "this is what happens when you actually do the job you are paid to do", but at the same time "suck shit Altomic"

        • RedSky1 on 22/11/2024 - 08:14

          yep, it's a fine line, you can work yourself to death in this feedback loop, for often no benefit.

          Then when the employee almost inevitably snaps management be like "what is wrong with this person?"

          both parties need to manage time better in this scenario

    • ShazOz on 20/11/2024 - 09:44

      Colleagues are apparently around the world so the project meetings are late in the evening to cater for other countries.

      • donga100 on 20/11/2024 - 10:22
        +8

        Start showing up to work late every now and then to cater for other countries and get back the extra hours worked.

        • Drifta on 20/11/2024 - 19:26
          +2

          This is spot on. There has to be give and take. You work late so start late from time to time.
          Unfortunately many companies exploit the reasonable hours clause.
          It's also worth noting that the clause if ever tested in court will depend on persons salary and position. A worker earninf 70k should not be doing 5+ hrs weekly but if you're earning 150k than it will likely be considered reasonable. I've had this tested at fair work before.

          Other thing to keep in mind is being blacklisted for promotions etc if it's seen that you're not doing your bit.

          Very fine line to tread unfortunately

  • MrThing on 20/11/2024 - 07:55
    +16

    The sooner fair work closes this "reasonable extra hours" bullshit in contracts the better. You want more hours than a full time loading… then pay me for it

    Its vague and everyone who works a salary gets abused for free hours by their employer

    • randomusername2017 on 20/11/2024 - 09:17

      closes this "reasonable extra hours" bullshit

      Already covered by BOOT.

    • brendanm on 20/11/2024 - 09:41

      Salary is for suckers.

      • ricadam on 20/11/2024 - 13:13
        +4

        You're right, join my MLM instead and be you own CEO #bossbabe

        • brendanm on 20/11/2024 - 14:22
          +1

          Or get paid a wage, and actually
          get paid for every hour you work.

          • JIMB0 on 20/11/2024 - 21:33
            +1

            @brendanm: You also get paid for ones you don't work but were there for while waiting around.

      • Breno785au on 22/11/2024 - 09:13

        Not when you're able to do 6-7 hours some days, but then some others you may do say 9 depending on the urgency / current workload.

    • ShazOz on 20/11/2024 - 09:45

      Agree - it's not reasonable to attend 8pm calls or occasionally at 9pm.

      • ricadam on 20/11/2024 - 13:12

        From home?

    • justworld on 20/11/2024 - 12:27
      +1

      This is a really cynical take. I remember seeing that clause in my contract when I was a graduate lawyer, and getting paid only around $52k (around $80k in today's terms). I worked around 5-10 extra hours a week. To me, that was worth it for the training and technical development. I ended up getting really good skills out of my time as a junior lawyer and leveraged that into my own practice which I now run - and I get paid a lot more than what I would have gotten paid if I had just been a 9-5 clock watcher.

      You can be abused in some situations, but not every situation of overtime is abuse. Sometimes it's beneficial for both parties.

      • MrThing on 20/11/2024 - 14:50
        -1

        you worked 10hrs for free each week?

        • justworld on 20/11/2024 - 15:53
          +1

          Not every week. I said 5-10 hours. Can't you read?

          In any event, I didn't consider it 'for free'. The skills I gained would allow me to run my own practice within a few years, and that's where the money is. Long-term thinking over short-term thinking any day.

      • Prosp24 on 22/11/2024 - 09:11
        +1

        This
        Sometimes you're in it to learn, sometimes to earn, sometimes both. Looking long-term past the immediate salary to future opportunities is important.

        Besides, you build equity by spending time in a job at a certain income level. No point having a high income if you can't sustain it or it leads to no further growth/opportunities..

    • MrThing on 20/11/2024 - 07:58

      That's the companies fault for not following it up - most sign in and out of work each day in some regard, so the data is their to pull people on

    • capslock on 20/11/2024 - 09:54

      There are clearly people who are reading ozbargain this morning negging posts instead of working. Thanks for proving my point.

      • MrThing on 20/11/2024 - 09:57

        not all of us are wage slaves

        • capslock on 20/11/2024 - 10:01
          +1

          Then why bother negging a post which does not affect you

          • try2bhelpful on 20/11/2024 - 15:27
            -1

            @capslock: Empathy for other people and wanting society to treat people better. When I was working I managed to help a bunch of people without enhancing my own situation. Then again I’m not a selfish shit who is only in it for me. However the Karma points also meant people helped me out at times as well.

        • justworld on 20/11/2024 - 15:54

          The irony is that the best way to not be a wage slave is to be self-employed, rake in the cash and retire early in your 40s - and you're not going to achieve that by doing a 38-hour-per-week, 9-5 employee job.

          • MrThing on 20/11/2024 - 16:32

            @justworld:

            38-hour-per-week (more like 50hr a week), 7-7 employee job.

          • try2bhelpful on 20/11/2024 - 18:03
            +1

            @justworld: You might want to look at the statistics on the number of new businesses that fail in the first 5 years. Yes you aren’t a wage slave but you are more than likely to be unsuccessful. Most people won’t be raking in the cash they will be doing the dough they put into the business.

  • morse on 20/11/2024 - 08:02
    +4

    It’s probably not reasonable but what is the actual salary? and what other opportunities does this job offer for career progression and wage growth? So whilst it might not meet fair work standards, some may be willing to do this for the pay, type of work or future opportunities.

    Say it’s $150k and if your partner performs well there will be opportunity to get to $180k or $200k or whatever, it might be worthwhile. Or say they want to achieve something like make partner, become a medical specialist (like surgeon, anaesthetist, emergency physician etc), or get to a director or executive level, this type of thing is not uncommon.

    10-12 hour days 5 days a week though is not good for anyone’s health, so best not the way to live long term.

    • ShazOz on 20/11/2024 - 09:53
      +1

      It's hybrid working arrangement but you must attend office at least 3 days a week. The return trip to office is over 3 hours so naturally my partner hates it.

      There is no fun leaving home at 7am and then work till 9pm to attend the calls. Occasionally the project meeting could be at 9pm and last till 10pm. My partner is mostly exhausted and frustrated because of long hours. It has actually badly impacted our family life as well.

      It is just Level 1 managerial position so not high paying job. Wage growth is just 3% and there is flat structure so no room for career progression unless my partner's manager dies/leaves lol

      • geekcohen on 20/11/2024 - 10:40

        It's hybrid working arrangement but you must attend office at least 3 days a week. The return trip to office is over 3 hours so naturally my partner hates it.

        Doing additional hours with the travel is pretty bad. I did 3 hours travel in my previous jobs and it was okay, but I never did work outside my hours. I might've arrived at the office a bit earlier, but never did I work extra unless otherwise discussed and agreed on.

        There is no fun leaving home at 7am and then work till 9pm to attend the calls. Occasionally the project meeting could be at 9pm and last till 10pm. My partner is mostly exhausted and frustrated because of long hours. It has actually badly impacted our family life as well.

        That is very unfair. Why are meetings outside of hours? Europe time zone? If so, then there should be additional pay/overtime for these extra hours.

        She is probably up at 6am for 7am departure, and then not getting to bed until 10:30pm, that is not very good to be on the go all that time. Do you guys even have a sex life?

  • geekcohen on 20/11/2024 - 08:24
    +1

    What type of role is this? Is it 100% WFH / Remote Job? Is there travel to an office required? What is the salary?

    Personally, I work extra hours every day, maybe around 1-2 hours a day but my role is 100% WFH. It all balances out though. I get up early, start some work, do the home stuff with kids, back home about 8am ish and then work until 4-5pm ish. Some days, maybe finishing at 4pm and mowing the law or getting out and doing some other house jobs. Plus, then some occassional meetings with Europe which I just do on my phone and headphones whilst doing other stuff around the house.

    I look at it and go, the extra hours I put in I don't mind because I get to work from home all the time with flexibility on family and having 0 travel costs (the list can go on).

    Now, in your partner's cases, if she has to travel to and from the office every day or even a few days, working extra out of hours is a joke and is not fair to have that expectation.

    Your partner isn't in the Education sector by any chance?

    It's not easy to secure new job due to ongoing tight job and upcoming Christmas period.

    Even if you she did secure something, it would probably start the new year depending on the notice period of the current role. We are almost in December! Can she hold out until the new year and then find/look for something. New Year often there is a lot of new job ads.

  • oscargamer on 20/11/2024 - 08:32
    +1

    Time at work before start time is simply not reasonable. I can understand if things don't get done during the work day and there is a need to stay back for a bit after finish time. What that employer is doing is BS.

  • CheapandUsed on 20/11/2024 - 08:43
    +6

    Use this to find the award/EA that covers the employer / industry / type of work performed
    https://calculate.fairwork.gov.au/FindYourAward

    Download the 'Record my hours' app and start tracking your hours worked - or continue to maintain that spreadsheet you have been using to track all the time you work
    https://www.fairwork.gov.au/tools-and-resources/record-my-ho…

    Now what you are able to figure out is if the salary actually includes reasonable extra hours (this is what happened to Woolworths Store Managers

    The award rates might seem low initially, but you also said "Overall the salary is below market average". The award will list the base pay rates and when overtime is paid and at what percentage (usually 150% during week days between certain times). So calculate on at least one month of the actual time worked the base wage + the overtime that should be due… if this amounts to more than the salary payments then it is time to calculate for an additional month and get in contact with your union or fairwork on next steps..

    • timothy2 on 22/11/2024 - 08:23

      This is the only legit answer. Additional hours are only reasonable if your salary is still at or above the equivalent amount as per the award. The employer should be doing a salary assessment for anybody under the high income threshold to ensure they are compensated at or above the award rate.

  • pegaxs on 20/11/2024 - 08:56
    +8

    Last "salary" job I had, my hours were 40h/week… with "reasonably after/extended hours… And I didnt mind when it was a once off every other week for an hour or 2… then it ballooned to 50 hours a week… by the time I left they were expecting 60+ hours a week with no bump in pay to cover the exta 20 hours a week.

    Renegotiate the salary to either cover any "extra hours" or to to stipulate what "reasonable extra hours" is and how to be compensated for them.

    Dont work for "free". Reasonable extra hours is 15 mins here, or 30 mins there maybe once every couple of weeks, not the equivalent of an extra hour every single day.

  • FezMonkey on 20/11/2024 - 09:24

    I believe it's fairly normal for salary employment contracts to state something similar.

    I don't mind putting in extra time occasionally if I have a lot to get through or answering some urgent query, just as I expect my employer doesn't give me a hard time for a long lunch break or spending some time chatting to coworkers, etc.

    A bit of give and take just makes it smoother for everyone.

    But if it's 5 hours every week that's different, that goes beyond the normal flow of work. Your partner should speak to their manager about the workload and expectations of when it's to be done.

    • MrThing on 20/11/2024 - 10:00
      +3

      likewise if you chuck in a couple extra hours on a busy week, you should be well within your rights to clock off early on a friday on a quiet week to make up for it

  • djsweet on 20/11/2024 - 09:30

    All depends on salary. Are the extra 5 hours mandated or does she “on average” do 5 hours more. If it’s mandatory Fair Work would have a field day. If it’s more of a situation of being a high level exec on 300k+ doing what it takes, then different story entirely.

  • MS Paint on 20/11/2024 - 09:46
    +6

    I'm happy to stay back and work extra time because it's always at double pay. Thanks certified agreement - you're the best.

    • El cheepo on 20/11/2024 - 10:59
      +1

      Ehhh, even on double time it gets old after a while.
      Don't get me wrong, i do it. But i am still going to complain about it 😂

      • MS Paint on 20/11/2024 - 11:01
        +3

        95% of the time I decline the offer to work extra. I've got better things to do with my life.

  • ThithLord on 20/11/2024 - 09:54
    +4

    Hi OP, I was in the exact same position as your partner when I started my job. My salary had 38 hrs a week, but the hours we were expected to turn up equated to 40 hrs a week (8AM-5PM, 1HR Lunch break = 40 HRS).

    The boss said that working 8AM-5PM is 38 hours "plus reasonable overtime", but I pointed out that usual hours worked is not covered by "reasonable overtime", as reasonable overtime is meant for unexpected but required hours.

    He spoke the company's legal team (after I said I'm fine to work the 40 hrs but I'll be confirming with my union what my entitlements are) and the legal team confirmed my suspicions. It was all sorted amicably, by the way, the boss had no issues correcting the hours worked. YMMV, I am in QLD if that helps.

  • EightImmortals on 20/11/2024 - 10:17
    +6

    Timely?

    https://futurework.org.au/report/taking-up-the-right-to-disc…

    Unpaid overtime
    On average, employees reported they performed 3.6 hours of unpaid work in the week of the survey, equivalent to 10.9% of total working hours. This unpaid overtime equates to 188 hours per year per worker, or almost five standard 38-hour work weeks.

    If unpaid overtime were valued at median wage rates, this means the average worker is losing $7,713 per year or $297 a fortnight.
    At the economy-wide level, this equates to more than $91 billion of lost income per year.
    The personal and social costs of unpaid overtime, through working outside of normal hours, include negative consequences for health and wellbeing and relationships:

    Four in ten workers report physical tiredness (42%) and feeling mentally drained (40%)A third of workers experience stress or anxiety (32%), and one in four experienced interference with personal life/relationships (29%).One in five workers experience disrupted sleep (22%).
    • One in three workers (36%) indicate that unpaid overtime is either expected or encouraged in their workplace.
    The most common reason for working outside scheduled work hours is too much work (41%), with the second most common reason being staff shortages when other staff are absent or on leave (31%).

    • Ozbar Gain on 20/11/2024 - 10:45
      +10

      I think if persistent overtime is required, that points to a shortage of staff and its up to the employer to address that

  • Ozbar Gain on 20/11/2024 - 10:44
    +10

    If you don't set your boundaries someone else will

  • CodeXD on 20/11/2024 - 11:13
    +3

    Doesn't sound reasonable.

    Start looking for a new job.

  • Seraphin7 on 20/11/2024 - 11:29

    It's a fairly standard clause in corporate-style employment contracts. Whether it's "fair" or otherwise is something any number of people will have opinions on … and usual those opinions will come down to context.

    This actually sounds far more like an issue of "below market salary" than extra working hours. Frankly, that's where I'd be focusing my attention.

    Ever since leaving university, every job I've had has had some variation on this clause you are referring to. At times, I've felt like various I'm getting screwed, but for overall I've taken it as part of the overall package. Effectively, it is priced into the arrangements, at least in my mind … I know that at various times I'll be required to work extra hours (perhaps significantly extra), although I also know that have a reasonable level of flexibility in how I manage my day/week.

  • DingoBilly on 20/11/2024 - 12:06

    0 hours. (profanity) employers who make you work for free for them. You should always get paid overtime for extra hours and noone should accept less.

  • try2bhelpful on 20/11/2024 - 18:14
    +1

    “Reasonable” extra hours should come with commensurate better pay or conditions. These hours should also be to tide the company over during very busy periods with the understanding there will be benefits to the worker in slower periods. Most people are willing to kick in a few extra hours to deliver a project but the quickest way to kill this good will is to expect workers will do it. This is especially true if you want to retain workers with high demand skills. Companies are beginning to realise that creating conditions where their domain knowledge walks out the door puts them at significant risk.

  • JIMB0 on 20/11/2024 - 21:52

    1 hour and 1 second is reasonable as that is the minimum amount of time that is considered to be in the range of hours.

  • Dennis Denuto on 21/11/2024 - 10:30
    +3

    This has become the norm in Australian society due to the continual drive for greater productivity.

    The question is, what salary are you earning that makes you believe working a few extra hours is unacceptable?

    Based on the vibes, I'd say that on a salary of $50k, unpaid overtime would likely be unacceptable, but at $100k, it's more justifiable. That continuum extends to when you are earning $200k and $300k a year, as you'll be expected to do whatever it takes to keep things running smoothly, including working overnight and on weekends.

  • JIMB0 on 21/11/2024 - 12:24
    +3

    At least you don't have to pay tax on the overtime.

  • TheBilly on 21/11/2024 - 17:13
    +1

    You have a few options

    1. Don't do the hours
    2. Negotiate extra pay
    3. Live with the circumstances
    4. Move to a new role/company

    Unfortunately that is really about it

  • tessel on 22/11/2024 - 06:55

    0

  • liongalahad on 22/11/2024 - 08:50
    +1

    My understanding is that the overtime has to be the exception not the rule, if there's a pattern where overtime is accounted for regularly by the employer, or even scheduled in advance, and it happens regularly, then it's not legal.

  • TerryJustTerry on 22/11/2024 - 09:37

    depends on the $$$ imo, if someone is on $40,000 a year no. if someone is on $400,000 a year, yeah you probably will have to work OT unpaid (but its basically just paid in the salary).

  • TightAl on 22/11/2024 - 09:51

    How much does he make is the real question?

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