If you have lost land in a war or have been settled by a more foreign people's, how many years or generations should pass before you lose all ancestry claim to the land?
How Far Back Do We Accept an Ancient Claim to Land?
Superkid on 30/10/2024 - 00:25
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I agree.
Yes, an entire generation (80 years) will be more than sufficient to say that you no longer own the land. However, you can always claim back the land at any time whether you are entitled to it or not (by war). This is how the human race was built. The only reason this is a foreign concept to us now is because of nuclear weapons preventing many large scale wars from occurring. In the case of Ukraine, the world acknowledges that it doesn't belong to Russia any more so Russia has no claim to it even though it's only been 33 years since the rebels stole it from Russia as far as they are concerned.
However, you can always claim back the land at any time whether you are entitled to it or not (by war).
Or, as a Youtuber/podcaster I enjoy consuming content from (CGPGrey, for the curious) likes to put it:
Bigger stick diplomacy
There is no definitive time period, and judged on a case-by-case basis.
Aboriginal land rights is a good starting point.
Israel is backed by a fortune of funding and military support from the world's top superpower, plus the horror of the holocaust on Jewish people makes the country a special case, I think the world will indefinitely tolerate Israel under these circumstances. Their ancient claim to land is bogus and the British messed it all up like they always do, leaving chaos and ruin in their wake meddling in world affairs. But what can you do about it, I think what's done is done, arguing about their ancient claim being invalid is moot.
The world won't tolerate only America and its slave allies will. Just have a look at the countries that supports Israel all of them would be American allies.
Israel could move for peace one day again in the future. They tried it before.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhak_Rabin
@OhNoUShiz: Yeah, that was pretty disgusting. Killed by an Israeli extremist no less, though he probably doesn't look so extreme to the current voting majority.
AustriaBargain
Opinion checks out
horror of the holocaust on Jewish people
If you want to play the Holocaust card, let me ask you this: Should the Palestinians endure land theft, ethnic cleansing, Apartheid - effectively a Holocaust against the entire indigenous Arab population in Palestine generation after generation for the Holocaust that was waged by Nazi Germany against the Jews in Europe?
No they shouldn't. Israel should be compelled to accomodate both peoples, make life better for everyone. Even if Palestine doesn't seem to want it, Israel should be working towards some kind of solution that accommodates both states, shares their technology and wealth and their supposed moral high ground with the people of Palestine.
@Duggo3729: Yeah having your family massacred, your homes taken, and your rights stripped to the bone does that to people
@Duggo3729: Look at the current body counts for each side then consider why they might not be the most well adjusted mob.
Not to mention that there are allegations that the Israeli right have propped up Hamas and undermined Abbas to provide a cassus belli…
Israel should be working towards some kind of solution that accommodates both states
Seriously, you cannot be this naive.
Shitzrael / IOF is currently working towards depopulating Northern Gaza - no aid, no water, no power, imprisonment, torture, rape of civilians, allowing settlement expansions in Occupied West Bank, allowing settlers to carry out pogroms against innocent Palestinian civilians in the Occupied West Bank (who have nothing to do with HAMAS), bombing the crap out of cities and towns in parts of Lebanon whose civilians have nothing to do with Hezbollah (google: "Dahiya Doctrine").
Who is going to compel them when they receive $8 Billion+ in aid & military hardware from the US and EU countries as reward year after year despite the Holocaust being waged by them in Gaza and the West Bank?
Israel should be compelled to accomodate both peoples, make life better for everyone.
Who is going to compel them when they have such a tight grip on both chambers of the US Congress (google: AIPAC), and the EU?
supposed moral high ground
Please don't make me spit out my drink of water again.
IOF soldiers are live streaming their war crimes on social media every hour because they know they will never be punished no matter how deprave they are.
There are soldiers gleefully taking videos of children being shot in the head, running them over in tanks whilst they are zip tied, bombing schools, mosques, churches, hospitals, etc.
Don't take my word for it… Do your own research.
@CurlCurl: Who defines when it started?
Palestinians say it started in 1948
Israelies say it started on October 7th 2023
@DoctorCalculon: Starting a post with 'Shitzrael' indicates that the rest of the post will be gibberish - as happened here.
@R4: Oh sweet, for a second I thought the part about IDF bragging about their war crimes on social media was real!
But just as you posted your comment declaring this as gibberish, those social media posts disappeared from our reality 🥳
@DoctorCalculon: You forgot the bit about IDF soldiers being the real victims of this war - e.g whining to the media about being depressed because they can no longer eat meat after killing groups of Palestinians by squishing them under the tracks of their 60T combat bulldozers..
Also because Hamas refuses to let them win so they have to keep the war going.
Yes.
The Arab League never wanted to share the land with Israel.
Not once.
Israel conflict really is a hard one +++ esp since RELIGION is involved at the heart of it.
"Their ancient claim to land is bogus" - but the Palestinian claim is somehow not bogus? Why is one historical claim legitimate but not another?
What matters now is that Israel is an established country and is not going anywhere. Palestinians and the other Iran proxies keep having to relearn that lesson, each time they start and lose another war.
Palestine's claim isn't ancient. And they still hold land today that Israel would like to take.
@AustriaBargain: Right. What matters now is that Israel is an established country and is not going anywhere.
@Gervais fanboy: Well they both wish to control that area. You know, not that it can be changed, as we both agree, but the situation would be a lot easier if the British never worked to give the land to Jewish people in the first place. Or if they implemented a better solution from the start. Did the Jewish people really need that land so badly, was it worth it? I think probably. But the plan should have had some foresight. Sometimes giving people exactly what they are asking for isn't in their or our best interests, like maybe they haven't thought it all out either.
Well they both wish to control that area
Polls suggested that the Palestinian leadership and its majority population support uprooting/cleansing Israelis out of that region.
Whereas the majority of Israelis don’t feel that way but yes, Netanyahu makes up for that with all his evil and manipulation.situation would be a lot easier if the British never worked to give the land to Jewish people in the first place.
I agree
I think probably.
lol, their desperation was their problem. It still didn’t justify the illegal occupation at the time.
If the Americans and British felt so guilty for their early involvement and support of the Hitler regime, maybe they should have paid the surviving Jews their reparations and housed them all in America and Britain respectively. Maybe could have given them their own state.like maybe they haven't thought it all out either.
How about you take another step and sense something more sinister that happened there at the time.
Despite me blaming Israel for their evils, nothing was stopping the Palestinians from stopping their own in-fighting and develop their region. The amount of financial aid that they have squandered is all on them. They can’t blame Israel for everything.
Israel could disappear tomorrow and the majority of Palestinians would still be impoverished and backwards in their views.
Israel's decision to establish and maintain a majority Jewish state surrounded by hostile enemies, and supported by Western allies, has been one of the most disastrous and dangerous political events of the last 80 years.
It has planted the seeds of hate in the minds of millions of Muslims worldwide, and directed that hate towards not only Jewish, but also Christian and Western civilisation, especially the US, who provides the most military support for Israel. When you saw footage of Muslims celebrating after the 9/11 twin towers collapse in 2001, that was evidence of how that hate has coalesced, where the US and its financial centre in New York is seen as synonymous with Jewish civilisation.
It has massively increased the amount of violence and terrorism in the world, and led to the deaths of thousands, even millions of people. It has helped created an "us Vs them" narrative in the Middle East, and around the world, from which we may never recover.
In reality, it was an absolutely stupid decision and continues to be so, and the reasons behind it are irrational. Who cares about ancient rights to land if it leads to suffering and violence? What is important is that people are able to lead a happy, peaceful life. The US government in the 1940s and 1950s would have happily helped Jewish people emigrate to the US and establish a new state/centre for Jewish people/culture/religion in the US, where they would be existing in peace.
Having said that, the naive criticism from the extreme left that is focused solely on Israel's military crimes is extremely biased and hypocritical, and ignores the fact that in the Middle-East, Israel faces a never-ending hostile, violent and racist enemy population that will never ever admit Israeli's rights to exist. If Palestinians had decades ago exhibited some kind of openness to reason and tolerance, or responded with non-violent protest instead of violence, there might have been some kind of solution. But no, it has been never-ending hate and violence, and the Palestinian government has written into its charter that it wishes to eradicate Jewish people from the face of the Earth. Meanwhile, their hate is supported by nations on all sides of Israel.
And, yet, having said that, I see evidence that the word is getting smarter, with the internet, AI, better education, more universal education, access to massive amounts of information, technological advances, and greater understanding of scientific knowledge, each generation seems to be becoming more knowledgeable, smarter, and more rational than the generation before it. It is possible that the younger generation today, or the one after that, will outgrow this hate and hostility and superstition and nationalism, and we will finally be headed towards a stable, peaceful global society.
When you saw footage of Muslims celebrating after the 9/11 twin towers collapse in 2001, that was evidence of how that hate has coalesced
In the middle east where civil wars and religious violence are the norms it's unsurprising to celebrate death and tragedy of your enemies. War in the middle east is just another day, whether it's a country against itself or cross borders.
They're just living normal life over there, live yours and let whatever happens in that wasteland happen. Weird leftists would like to think there's black and white here but it's much to complex for their little minds to comprehend.
@ForkSnorter: Joe Biden said “if we didn’t have Israel we would have created an Israel” them being Jewish has absolutely nothing to do with this. The US needed a guard dog in the centre of the Middle East after WW2, and needed people crazy enough to do the job. So they picked religious fanatics who think this was their land 3000 years ago. If they had Christians crazy enough to take the job, I’m sure they would have done them but the Jews got the job. There is nothing better than giving a job to an ideologue when your interests align, because they will sacrifice themselves if needed.
The guard dog job entails. Being constantly militarily superior than all your neighbours and making them constantly threatened into submission. This way they will never sell their oil in a currency other than US dollars. If they never sell oil in any other currency, it will maintain demand for US dollars allowing you to print as much US dollar as you need without crashing the currency and causing hyper inflation.
If they ever try to sell oil in any other currency. You blow them up. Hard and fast and make them regret their decisions. Example; Libya, Iraq, currently Syria, and about to occur in the next few months Iran.
Depends on the PR effort and media manipulation.
Truly.
One side: I’m Caucasian from Poland/Bronx, but my magic book say my somehow brown ancestors lived here 3000 years ago so it’s mine.
The other side: my parents lived here a few decades ago, they still have their land deeds and even the key to their old dispossessed house.
Guess whose argument the media says is more solid.
No truer words
Question far too vague. Is "you" nation states? Tribes? We talking Crimea, Kurds, Alsace? I don't think the British are likely to get Calais back.
Is this about Israel?
I’d hazard a guess and say … yes
https://www.ozbargain.com.au/comment/15774288/redirThis thread will end well no doubt
I was asking in general, Crimea, Australia ect?
Let's get etc correct first before we worry about claiming land.
Kid probably ment English Claimed Territories.
Sure, 27 responses in the other post. Maybe you need ECT.
Sure OzBargain will sort out the world’s wars, dispossessed and displaced people, by answering this one simple question.
I thought it was more about saving the taxpayer billions of dollars a year supporting the Aboriginal industrial complex?
I'll bet this sounded clever in your head
Is it off topic?
Is it not true?
Can you tell me which living person has had their land 'stolen' and what living person stole it?
If you believe all that is legitimate then please tell me where to apply for compensation for all the wrongs done to my ancestors.
How much of Australia to we have to hand over before the bleeding hearts are staunched? The government already put around 41% of our landmass under 'native title' (whatever that means).Is it even possible to have a sensible discussion on this topic?
Probably not.
Is it even possible to have a sensible discussion on this topic?
Is the person using the phrase "Aboriginal industrial complex" wondering out loud why it isn't possible to have a sensible discussion on this topic?
(Everyone else playing along at home, put the very very normal phrase "Aboriginal industrial complex" into Google complete with quotes to get an exact match and see what sort of YouTube and substack accounts uses this specific wording when they have their "sensible discussions")
@CrowReally: lols. I guess some phrases are just too subtle for the general public in 2024. I'll call centrelink and see if they can bridge for you to get over it.
In the meantime feel free to answer my other questions. Or not, I don't care either way really.
(person using cooker-specific language) wHy woNt AnyONe anSweR My SeriOUs qUesTions????)
Every goddamn time.
I'll call centrelink and see if they can bridge for you to get over it.
Presumably this word salad is a good indication of the quality of your "thought" that I'm missing out on.
I'll bet it probably sounded a lot more clever in your head as well.
@EightImmortals: Not that you are likely to understand, but there is a significant difference between 'conquered/taken land' and 'native title' as determined under Mabo. Indeed, that was the central point of Mabo.
Which type of land claims are you whining about?
Are you arguing that if you steal something from a person, and then they die, its no longer theft?
@EightImmortals: Using this logic one should not be allowed to inherit title to land (I'm ok with this concept but you probably aren't).
@EightImmortals: There is many ways to obtain land. Militarily, politically, financially, legally. Your ancestors obtained it militarily. It is now being obtained financially by others and legally by others. That is the game. Your ancestors won for a while. You are now loosing. It is what it is. There is no need to be passive aggressive about it.
In the beginning…..
In-in-the begingging…
10 business days.
or 2 weeks to flatten the curve
Take it and you can visit your dying mother. Then you die as well
Who owned the land first, Israel or Palestine?
By more than 1,000 years, “Israel” predates “Palestine.” The land then became home primarily to an Arab population, again for more than a millennium. Both Jews and Arabs thus have a legitimate claim to the land. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict has seen myriad wrongs and brutalities on both sides.
The Quarn was written between 609CE and 632CE says
The Qur'an specifies that the Land of Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people, that God Himself gave that Land to them as heritage and ordered them to live therein.
Why did the Jews leave Israel?
During the Crisis of the Third Century, economic disruption and high taxation due to civil wars in the Roman Empire caused many Jews to migrate from the Land of Israel to Babylon under the more tolerant Persian Sassanid Empire, where an autonomous Jewish community existed in the area of Babylon.
BTW. I'm not Jewish.
Do you believe the Qur'an as a source of truth?
Do you believe the Qur'an as a source of truth?
No. i also don't believe the Bible as a true source.
It's written in the Qu'ran, that is no argument.
If you don't believe its the truth then what value does that statement have for you?
Would love to know which section specifies the above.If you don't believe its the truth then what value does that statement have for you?
Would love to know which section specifies the above.No value. Just giving three different quotes for people to make there mind up.
- Your statements specific to the Qur'an is filled with misinformation. While the Qur'an acknowledges that God once assigned specific lands to the Children of Israel (Israel being the children of Prophet Jacob not your modern day Israel), it does not affirm this land grant as an eternal or exclusive right, nor does it mandate their permanent residence there. Instead, the Qur'anic narrative emphasizes moral obedience and accountability to God, and it addresses the Children of Israel in the context of past events, rewards, and consequences.
“And [mention, O Muhammad], when Moses said to his people, 'O my people, remember the favor of Allah upon you when He appointed among you prophets and made you kings and gave you what He had not given anyone among the worlds. O my people, enter the Holy Land which Allah has assigned to you and do not turn back [from fighting in Allah's cause] and [thus] become losers.’” (Qur'an, 5:20-21)
“And We said after Pharaoh to the Children of Israel, ‘Dwell in the land, and when the [final] promise comes, We will bring you forth in [one gathering].’” (Qur'an, 17:104)
Clearly you enjoy spreading misinformation and that is the value. If you don't believe it is true yet you state it for an agenda - I wonder what that agenda is.
Please don't spread your lies in anyone's name but your own, speak the truth even if it is against yourself mate.
@InfiniteRegression: Don't blame me. They are quotes from Google. Best tell them its all wrong.
At least I know where you are coming from.
Do you believe in the Qu'ran? It's a yes or no answer.
Second question. Do you believe in the Bible. Again, yes or no.
@InfiniteRegression: So it's saying that Israelites should dwell there? Sounds like what curl is saying.
What verse is it written in?
During the Crisis of the Third Century, economic disruption and high taxation due to civil wars in the Roman Empire caused many Jews to migrate from the Land of Israel to Babylon under the more tolerant Persian Sassanid Empire
And those that remained became the people we call "Palestinian". Not only is that a reasonable conclusion based on straightforward logic, it is supported by DNA evidence
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11543891/
(Note this paper has been retracted from the publication there is no explanation provided)
https://www.science.org/content/article/jews-and-arabs-share…
Hahaha you’ve gotta be joking. A tiny minority of moderns Israelis have ancestors who hail from that land. To an Israeli the only thing more scary than Khamas is a DNA test.
What if the current Israel isnt [real blood]Jews. What if Palestine is actually [real blood]Jews? Why is the DNA test banned in Israel? I support
As far back as is useful to present day political machinations.
P.S. Italy called, they want Jerusalem back.
Prior to the Big Bang?
Probably not far enough… I'd say back to the definition of the underlying concepts of physical matter and the (lack of compatible non conflicting) notions of ideology and ownership. So, yeh, points vaguely to rules of The Matrix.
As a snake in a past life, I was pissed when some sky entity dumped 2 skin walkers in my garden, so I gave them an apple in exchange for them to (fropanity) off, but they stayed and then got to multiplying… And let's just say, I'm still pissed y'all still here in my garden…
If you hadn't played that little trick with the apple you'd still have your legs and be one of the secret ruling class.
I knew reptilians were real.
Should have given the 2 skin walkers a packet of darts and a slab.
All hail the snake (and descendants).
(and of course Scotty… and Santa and the Easter Bunny).
It began in Africa….
It began in Africa…
Were Adam and Eve black?
Most likely, yes.
cue fat boy slim, aka. Norman Cook, aka pizza boy, aka beats international
Was fat boy slim beats international? Same beats as "dub be good to me"?
Ca ca ca ca ca ca ca ca ca ca….
kind of which come first chicken or egg question…
Chicken and egg are lying in bed.
Chicken turns to egg & says, "I guess that answers that question".Ironically that question has an obvious answer
China claiming all of the west Philippine sea - So you don't even need to lose a war or settle in it to be able to claim it.
And parts of Australia
They did win and they did settle.
Post world war 2, Britain and the US trained and gifted 90 ships to the Chinese navy. France wanted to to reclaim previously annexed islands such as the Spratly Island but the Chinese either got to them first or interfered. For 30 years on and off those islands were occupied by PRC or ROC. 1975 the Chinese fought French proxies with the Vietnamese and routed them all. So they claim all those islands.
The US (and the collective West) just refuse to admit it because they know deep down they condoned that part of history by gifting the original ships and sat on their hands laughing at the French. Till it's no longer funny in the 21st Century.
Philippines crying about inhabitable islands when they all their cities are inhabitable.
Sounds like this is personal to you…It's not just the Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia and Brunei also have claims as well.
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yes