If you have lost land in a war or have been settled by a more foreign people's, how many years or generations should pass before you lose all ancestry claim to the land?
How Far Back Do We Accept an Ancient Claim to Land?
Superkid on 30/10/2024 - 00:25
Comments
I agree.
Yes, an entire generation (80 years) will be more than sufficient to say that you no longer own the land. However, you can always claim back the land at any time whether you are entitled to it or not (by war). This is how the human race was built. The only reason this is a foreign concept to us now is because of nuclear weapons preventing many large scale wars from occurring. In the case of Ukraine, the world acknowledges that it doesn't belong to Russia any more so Russia has no claim to it even though it's only been 33 years since the rebels stole it from Russia as far as they are concerned.
However, you can always claim back the land at any time whether you are entitled to it or not (by war).
Or, as a Youtuber/podcaster I enjoy consuming content from (CGPGrey, for the curious) likes to put it:
Bigger stick diplomacy
Very convenient to say 80 years isn't it? Coincidently since 1948 (when Israel formed on someone else's land) till now it's almost 80 years. All they have to do is hold on to these stolen lands (by whatever inhuman means) for just another 4 years.
Whoever says it's 80 or 400 years, I don't think it's as simple as that.
Throughout history Human migration (peaceful or otherwise) has been the only way we progressed across the globe; I need to establish this first. and countries and their boundaries have never been the same over the years. That's just simple fact we all need to understand. We all came out of Africa after all, no human own anything.
Having said that, capturing someone's land with an established culture for 2,000 years vs a country that's rather new (say 200 years) are completely two different things.
For example, Europeans colonised Sri Lanka for over 400 years (that's quite a few generations); they tried every possible way to convert them to Christianity and Western culture but hardly succeded. During this 400 years Sri Lankan's fought numerous times, never gave up and never gave oppressors a chance to relax and finally, they (Portuguese, Dutch & English) gave up on it. Vast majority of Sri Lankans are still Buddhists who speak their native language with close ties to their deeply rooted culture. I'm not saying it was the right thing or wrong thing, just laying out what happened.Now when you compare what's happening in Palestine and Ukraine, I think they're a little different scenarios.
I think Palastines have been living in their land for at least over 1,000 years, that's a long time. Thinking that 80 years of forceful occupation can sort that is ridiculous.I'm not a fan of either Hamas or Israel (government), I personally think they both are equally evil. But I feel for those innocent people who're dying because of someone else's business propaganda. Imagine Palastine kids whose parents are being killed, do you think they will ever forgive Israel? This war will continue until one party is completely genocided (at this stage it's pretty obvious who's going to be wiped out).
I won't be surprised if whatever Hamas did to provoke Israel was in fact all Mosad plan to begin with (chances of this is almost 100% as far as I'm concerned). Hamas just played puppet for Mosad and gave them perfect reason to wipe Palastine out. Well… History will be written by the winners right?
I won't be surprised if whatever Hamas did to provoke Israel was in fact all Mosad plan to begin with (chances of this is almost 100% as far as I'm concerned). Hamas just played puppet for Mosad and gave them perfect reason to wipe Palastine out.
I wouldnl't be surprised if you actually do see Pixies in your garden.
One only needs to go back through OPs post and comment history.
Welcome to identity politics where no one wins.
There is no definitive time period, and judged on a case-by-case basis.
Aboriginal land rights is a good starting point.
Israel is backed by a fortune of funding and military support from the world's top superpower, plus the horror of the holocaust on Jewish people makes the country a special case, I think the world will indefinitely tolerate Israel under these circumstances. Their ancient claim to land is bogus and the British messed it all up like they always do, leaving chaos and ruin in their wake meddling in world affairs. But what can you do about it, I think what's done is done, arguing about their ancient claim being invalid is moot.
The world won't tolerate only America and its slave allies will. Just have a look at the countries that supports Israel all of them would be American allies.
Israel could move for peace one day again in the future. They tried it before.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhak_Rabin
@OhNoUShiz: Yeah, that was pretty disgusting. Killed by an Israeli extremist no less, though he probably doesn't look so extreme to the current voting majority.
AustriaBargain
Opinion checks out
horror of the holocaust on Jewish people
If you want to play the Holocaust card, let me ask you this: Should the Palestinians endure land theft, ethnic cleansing, Apartheid - effectively a Holocaust against the entire indigenous Arab population in Palestine generation after generation for the Holocaust that was waged by Nazi Germany against the Jews in Europe?
No they shouldn't. Israel should be compelled to accomodate both peoples, make life better for everyone. Even if Palestine doesn't seem to want it, Israel should be working towards some kind of solution that accommodates both states, shares their technology and wealth and their supposed moral high ground with the people of Palestine.
@Duggo3729: Yeah having your family massacred, your homes taken, and your rights stripped to the bone does that to people
@Duggo3729: Look at the current body counts for each side then consider why they might not be the most well adjusted mob.
Not to mention that there are allegations that the Israeli right have propped up Hamas and undermined Abbas to provide a cassus belli…
Israel should be working towards some kind of solution that accommodates both states
Seriously, you cannot be this naive.
Shitzrael / IOF is currently working towards depopulating Northern Gaza - no aid, no water, no power, imprisonment, torture, rape of civilians, allowing settlement expansions in Occupied West Bank, allowing settlers to carry out pogroms against innocent Palestinian civilians in the Occupied West Bank (who have nothing to do with HAMAS), bombing the crap out of cities and towns in parts of Lebanon whose civilians have nothing to do with Hezbollah (google: "Dahiya Doctrine").
Who is going to compel them when they receive $8 Billion+ in aid & military hardware from the US and EU countries as reward year after year despite the Holocaust being waged by them in Gaza and the West Bank?
Israel should be compelled to accomodate both peoples, make life better for everyone.
Who is going to compel them when they have such a tight grip on both chambers of the US Congress (google: AIPAC), and the EU?
supposed moral high ground
Please don't make me spit out my drink of water again.
IOF soldiers are live streaming their war crimes on social media every hour because they know they will never be punished no matter how deprave they are.
There are soldiers gleefully taking videos of children being shot in the head, running them over in tanks whilst they are zip tied, bombing schools, mosques, churches, hospitals, etc.
Don't take my word for it… Do your own research.
@CurlCurl: Who defines when it started?
Palestinians say it started in 1948
Israelies say it started on October 7th 2023
@DoctorCalculon: Starting a post with 'Shitzrael' indicates that the rest of the post will be gibberish - as happened here.
@R4: Oh sweet, for a second I thought the part about IDF bragging about their war crimes on social media was real!
But just as you posted your comment declaring this as gibberish, those social media posts disappeared from our reality 🥳
@DoctorCalculon: You forgot the bit about IDF soldiers being the real victims of this war - e.g whining to the media about being depressed because they can no longer eat meat after killing groups of Palestinians by squishing them under the tracks of their 60T combat bulldozers..
Also because Hamas refuses to let them win so they have to keep the war going.You forgot the bit about IDF soldiers being the real victims of this war - e.g whining to the media about being depressed because they can no longer eat meat after killing groups of Palestinians by squishing them under the tracks of their 60T combat bulldozers..
Also because Hamas refuses to let them win so they have to keep the war going.WHAT
@CurlCurl: This was the CNN story but it's not the only one. I would quote it to save you time but it's very graphic & disturbing.
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/21/middleeast/gaza-war-israe…
tbpf only a Zionist could crush a few dozen people to death under the tracks of their bulldozer then claim to be the victim.
@CurlCurl: In fact, no. The IDF has also made a hobby of raping Palestinian women, murdering Palestinian children & kidnapping Palestinians to incarcerate & torture without charges in Israeli jails.
The difference is Hamas soldiers aren't complaining to the media about depression caused by their own actions.
@DoctorCalculon: You should probably seek a bit of education from reputable sources. Maybe look up the definition of terrorism.
As a third person perspective (not Israeli, not Muslim, don't have ties or cares about either side), I see Israel trying to protect their civilians while Palestine is using them as meat shields. Israel has military encampments that restrict civilian access. Palestine seems to stack its civilians around its high value targets. Israel attacks high value targets, although these targets are hiding among citizens and citizen places. Palestine purposefully attacks and kidnaps Israeli citizens meaning citizens are their target.
The more noise Palestine makes about their citizens dying, the more stupid they sound. If you want Israel to stop killing civilians, it's simple…. How about moving away from strategic militia targets instead of sitting on top of them? If Palestine wants its civilians to be meat shields, I don't feel Israel can be blamed for their deaths. In fact, I see Palestine at fault for both Palestinian and Israeli deaths.
Again, not connected to either side but getting fed up hearing about this stupid crap and currently nearing the point where I wouldn't care if Palestine was wiped from the face of the earth as it appears to only instil hate and stupidity.
Again, not connected to either side but getting fed up hearing about this stupid crap and currently nearing the point where I wouldn't care if Palestine was wiped from the face of the earth as it appears to only instil hate and stupidity.
100%
Yes.
The Arab League never wanted to share the land with Israel.
Not once.
Israel conflict really is a hard one +++ esp since RELIGION is involved at the heart of it.
"Their ancient claim to land is bogus" - but the Palestinian claim is somehow not bogus? Why is one historical claim legitimate but not another?
What matters now is that Israel is an established country and is not going anywhere. Palestinians and the other Iran proxies keep having to relearn that lesson, each time they start and lose another war.
Palestine's claim isn't ancient. And they still hold land today that Israel would like to take.
@AustriaBargain: Right. What matters now is that Israel is an established country and is not going anywhere.
@Gervais fanboy: Well they both wish to control that area. You know, not that it can be changed, as we both agree, but the situation would be a lot easier if the British never worked to give the land to Jewish people in the first place. Or if they implemented a better solution from the start. Did the Jewish people really need that land so badly, was it worth it? I think probably. But the plan should have had some foresight. Sometimes giving people exactly what they are asking for isn't in their or our best interests, like maybe they haven't thought it all out either.
Well they both wish to control that area
Polls suggested that the Palestinian leadership and its majority population support uprooting/cleansing Israelis out of that region.
Whereas the majority of Israelis don’t feel that way but yes, Netanyahu makes up for that with all his evil and manipulation.situation would be a lot easier if the British never worked to give the land to Jewish people in the first place.
I agree
I think probably.
lol, their desperation was their problem. It still didn’t justify the illegal occupation at the time.
If the Americans and British felt so guilty for their early involvement and support of the Hitler regime, maybe they should have paid the surviving Jews their reparations and housed them all in America and Britain respectively. Maybe could have given them their own state.like maybe they haven't thought it all out either.
How about you take another step and sense something more sinister that happened there at the time.
Despite me blaming Israel for their evils, nothing was stopping the Palestinians from stopping their own in-fighting and develop their region. The amount of financial aid that they have squandered is all on them. They can’t blame Israel for everything.
Israel could disappear tomorrow and the majority of Palestinians would still be impoverished and backwards in their views.@AustriaBargain: The situation would be a lot easier if the Romans never gave the land to Arabs in the first place and renamed the area from Judea to Palestine.
Israel's decision to establish and maintain a majority Jewish state surrounded by hostile enemies, and supported by Western allies, has been one of the most disastrous and dangerous political events of the last 80 years.
It has planted the seeds of hate in the minds of millions of Muslims worldwide, and directed that hate towards not only Jewish, but also Christian and Western civilisation, especially the US, who provides the most military support for Israel. When you saw footage of Muslims celebrating after the 9/11 twin towers collapse in 2001, that was evidence of how that hate has coalesced, where the US and its financial centre in New York is seen as synonymous with Jewish civilisation.
It has massively increased the amount of violence and terrorism in the world, and led to the deaths of thousands, even millions of people. It has helped created an "us Vs them" narrative in the Middle East, and around the world, from which we may never recover.
In reality, it was an absolutely stupid decision and continues to be so, and the reasons behind it are irrational. Who cares about ancient rights to land if it leads to suffering and violence? What is important is that people are able to lead a happy, peaceful life. The US government in the 1940s and 1950s would have happily helped Jewish people emigrate to the US and establish a new state/centre for Jewish people/culture/religion in the US, where they would be existing in peace.
Having said that, the naive criticism from the extreme left that is focused solely on Israel's military crimes is extremely biased and hypocritical, and ignores the fact that in the Middle-East, Israel faces a never-ending hostile, violent and racist enemy population that will never ever admit Israeli's rights to exist. If Palestinians had decades ago exhibited some kind of openness to reason and tolerance, or responded with non-violent protest instead of violence, there might have been some kind of solution. But no, it has been never-ending hate and violence, and the Palestinian government has written into its charter that it wishes to eradicate Jewish people from the face of the Earth. Meanwhile, their hate is supported by nations on all sides of Israel.
And, yet, having said that, I see evidence that the word is getting smarter, with the internet, AI, better education, more universal education, access to massive amounts of information, technological advances, and greater understanding of scientific knowledge, each generation seems to be becoming more knowledgeable, smarter, and more rational than the generation before it. It is possible that the younger generation today, or the one after that, will outgrow this hate and hostility and superstition and nationalism, and we will finally be headed towards a stable, peaceful global society.
When you saw footage of Muslims celebrating after the 9/11 twin towers collapse in 2001, that was evidence of how that hate has coalesced
In the middle east where civil wars and religious violence are the norms it's unsurprising to celebrate death and tragedy of your enemies. War in the middle east is just another day, whether it's a country against itself or cross borders.
They're just living normal life over there, live yours and let whatever happens in that wasteland happen. Weird leftists would like to think there's black and white here but it's much to complex for their little minds to comprehend.
@ForkSnorter: Joe Biden said “if we didn’t have Israel we would have created an Israel” them being Jewish has absolutely nothing to do with this. The US needed a guard dog in the centre of the Middle East after WW2, and needed people crazy enough to do the job. So they picked religious fanatics who think this was their land 3000 years ago. If they had Christians crazy enough to take the job, I’m sure they would have done them but the Jews got the job. There is nothing better than giving a job to an ideologue when your interests align, because they will sacrifice themselves if needed.
The guard dog job entails. Being constantly militarily superior than all your neighbours and making them constantly threatened into submission. This way they will never sell their oil in a currency other than US dollars. If they never sell oil in any other currency, it will maintain demand for US dollars allowing you to print as much US dollar as you need without crashing the currency and causing hyper inflation.
If they ever try to sell oil in any other currency. You blow them up. Hard and fast and make them regret their decisions. Example; Libya, Iraq, currently Syria, and about to occur in the next few months Iran.
@TheBilly: Not really a US-triggered thing on day 1. The Suez crisis that showed up the UK and France as being has-beens and led to the US taking effective control of the West was when the US really began to step up in that region. It was the trade through the Suez Canal and getting in ahead of the USSR that were the most important triggers, OPEC wasn't a big deal until much later.
@ForkSnorter: The idea that Israel is the trigger for hatred between Islam-majority and Christian-majority countries is honestly hilarious with the slightest inkling of history. You even say it yourself:
surrounded by hostile enemies
has planted the seeds of hateIf the seed of hate was yet to be planted, they wouldn't be hostile enemies, would they?
with the slightest inkling of history.
Do you mean ancient history, before the people alive today were born?
There may have been hate in the past, but the establishment of Israel and the existence of Israel today has without doubt amplified that hate among people alive today.
I don't know how you could deny that.
@ForkSnorter: Point to a moment when there wasn't active conflict between those groups, at any point since the origins of Islam? First you had the local conflicts with the earliest Muslim caliphates, then, you know, the crusades for centuries, then the Ottoman Empire kicking Christianity's backsides right up into Austria, and that whole thing is still a living memory with that conflict continuing until the Ottomans lost WWI. Then Israel appears like magic out of nowhere? (spoiler, no it didn't) and NOW we start the clock on the conflict? Nope. Trying to find a first blood situation isn't a meaningful concept.
Saying that the existence of Israel is some mistake that has lead to conflict is such a blind and ignorant point that it boggles the mind. You might as well say the easiest and least-conflict-ridden option is to just kill off everybody in the world not meeting some ultraspecific criteria (pick any, the point is the same), because otherwise it just creates conflict. The alternative to Israel existing was the Jewish population of what was until recently the Ottoman Empire (not just in Israel, but across MENA) remaining dispossessed serfs in their own lands. Like saying that the US civil war could have been avoided if only the slaves would stop all the whining about being slaves. Technically true, perhaps, but that doesn't make the statement any less nuts.
@Parentheses: And yet, we're now in a situation where Israel will forever need US military support, US military technology, and US political support, and this will perhaps forever be a source of conflict in the Middle-East, amplifying the hate of Israel and Jewish people in the region, continually increasing the threat of violence to Jewish people in the region, and potentially forever being a source of anti-Western sentiment among Muslims.
Also, it's worth noting that the State of Israel today is nothing like any Jewish population or state that existed in the past. Israel was established at the height of continually increasing tensions and violence and war between Arabs and Jews in the region. Following the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, the population increased massively as Jews emigrated from all over Europe and the Middle-East, creating a massive, majority Jewish population the likes of which had never existed before, and surrounded on all sides by majority Muslim nations.
@ForkSnorter: Yes, the situation is not ideal. The alternatives, however, were far worse.
Jews did not 'emigrate' to create Israel, nor did they 'colonise' - they 'fled'. Israel today is the result of a refugee exodus, and in the case of the surrounding countries it was literal expulsion. People calling it a colonial or imperial country are by definition either a) ignorant and talking about things they have no idea about, or b) calling for the alternatives, which inevitably lead to genocide. It's a refugee camp that had the nerve to be successful.
Look at the alternatives - leave the population spread out, where they suffered unbelievable persecution. Establishing a coalesced nation that they control for themselves was the only palatable option after the holocaust. So where do you put it? Their historical homeland (which is where the highest concentration already existed btw, they had been fleeing Europe in large numbers since the 1800s), surrounded by Muslims which persecute them? Put it in Europe where they are surrounded by Christians which persecute them? Carve out some of Argentina? It was an idea people floated, but that WOULD have been a colony, and Argentina got into bed with the Nazis after WWII anyway, so that would have been a disaster, and surrounded them with Christian Nazis who persecute them.
You know the really interesting bit though? Countries that are moving in secular capitalist directions rather than theocratic directions are increasingly warm to relations with Israel. It was the trigger for the 7th of October attacks to begin with. The solution isn't to handwave Israel into nonexistence because it's inconvenient (seriously, there's no point in saying that was a bad decision unless you have some alternative you think would have been better). It's to look at what makes the UAE, Bahrain, and Jordan happy to deal with Israel the same way they deal with any other country, and Saudi Arabia moving into that list. Which most likely boils down to 'destroy the current regime in Iran, weaken religious institutions, support secular regimes'.
@ForkSnorter: Yes, it was a stupid idea. But once again, present an alternative. It's like Churchill saying that democracy is the worst form of government… except all the others that have been tried.
It would be fantastic if we lived in a world where people of Jewish faith or descent could live wherever they happened to be born with no issues. But we don't, and we definitely didn't when Israel was created, either.
Anybody, no matter their qualifications or prestige, who claims that Israel shouldn't have been created, can be entirely dismissed unless and until they provide an alternative that would have been better.
@Parentheses: New York would have been better. A lot of Jewish people there, and they get along with everyone. New York has traditionally been open to immigrants, too
A lot of Jewish people there, and they get along with everyone
Why. Why do people with no clue about history feel qualified to make proclamations about history. You have no idea what you are talking about.
Ignoring the very real and severe current issues of antisemitism in US culture (Jewish space lasers?) and the problems with Jewish fundamentalists in NY right now who are among the most insane of the religious communities in the world (chabad tunnels?), you are looking with the eyes of someone with only a 21st century perspective, unaware of the shift the US had towards a moral superiority complex as the 'saviours of the holocaust' - this involved an incredible shift in perspective with Jews now being people to be saved, rather than people to be suspicious of. The antisemitism in the US is a tiny fraction of what it was as a result, though it is once again on the rise.
The US brought in major anti-Jewish immigration laws through the early 20th century, while using antisemitism as a scapegoat for all things depression-related. That was a huge contributor to Jewish migration to Palestine itself. New York was NOT a safe place for Jews at the time, and trying to bring in a large group of Jewish migrants would have cranked that antisemitism to 11 - only instead of having the US funding to protect them, they'd have the US oppressing them. Look at the Evian Conference, where the US roadblocked attempts to provide refuge for Jews in Europe, and DuBois' report on parts of the US government deliberately blocking Jewish refugees so they could be killed instead.
@Parentheses: Sorry, I'm not familiar with much of this history. Just exploring the issue via this conversation.
In New York at least they wouldn't have entire nations on both sides wanting to (planning to) obliterate them.
Also, isn't is possible that the whole Palestinians vs Israel issue has increased antisemitism?
@ForkSnorter: Curiosity and asking questions are great things to do - making claims of what is and what should be when you don't know what you're talking about is a huge problem that makes everything worse. When you say
In reality, it was an absolutely stupid decision and continues to be so, and the reasons behind it are irrational
but at the same time
I'm not familiar with much of this history
you should see how this might cause problems. It's not possible to solve a problem when your diagnosis of the cause is entirely wrong, and what's worse is people who themselves don't have a clue might read your words and believe them.
In Israel right now they are propped up such that they are more capable by an order of magnitude than all their enemies put together. Not a great situation, but at the end of the day Israel is currently in no danger of destruction, just of individuals being attacked. If we create 'the' place for Jewish people to take refuge in New York, you end up with the same issues of 'all sides', only now that side is the US, and there is no external ally propping them up. The path to a holocaust 2.0 is pretty much guaranteed in that scenario.
In recent history Israel vs Palestine has reduced antisemitism, as a pretty direct result of Islamic terrorism and Israel being an ally of convenience while the West had a different 'other' to point at. Islamic terrorism largely drying up in effectiveness vs the West after the conclusion of Afghani and Iraqi occupations is likely the trigger for that pendulum starting to swing back.
Depends on the PR effort and media manipulation.
Truly.
One side: I’m Caucasian from Poland/Bronx, but my magic book say my somehow brown ancestors lived here 3000 years ago so it’s mine.
The other side: my parents lived here a few decades ago, they still have their land deeds and even the key to their old dispossessed house.
Guess whose argument the media says is more solid.
No truer words
Question far too vague. Is "you" nation states? Tribes? We talking Crimea, Kurds, Alsace? I don't think the British are likely to get Calais back.
Is this about Israel?
I’d hazard a guess and say … yes
https://www.ozbargain.com.au/comment/15774288/redirThis thread will end well no doubt
I was asking in general, Crimea, Australia ect?
Let's get etc correct first before we worry about claiming land.
Kid probably ment English Claimed Territories.
Sure, 27 responses in the other post. Maybe you need ECT.
Sure OzBargain will sort out the world’s wars, dispossessed and displaced people, by answering this one simple question.
I'll bet this sounded clever in your head
Is it off topic?
Is it not true?
Can you tell me which living person has had their land 'stolen' and what living person stole it?
If you believe all that is legitimate then please tell me where to apply for compensation for all the wrongs done to my ancestors.
How much of Australia to we have to hand over before the bleeding hearts are staunched? The government already put around 41% of our landmass under 'native title' (whatever that means).Is it even possible to have a sensible discussion on this topic?
Probably not.
Is it even possible to have a sensible discussion on this topic?
Is the person using the phrase "Aboriginal industrial complex" wondering out loud why it isn't possible to have a sensible discussion on this topic?
(Everyone else playing along at home, put the very very normal phrase "Aboriginal industrial complex" into Google complete with quotes to get an exact match and see what sort of YouTube and substack accounts uses this specific wording when they have their "sensible discussions")
@CrowReally: lols. I guess some phrases are just too subtle for the general public in 2024. I'll call centrelink and see if they can bridge for you to get over it.
In the meantime feel free to answer my other questions. Or not, I don't care either way really.
(person using cooker-specific language) wHy woNt AnyONe anSweR My SeriOUs qUesTions????)
Every goddamn time.
I'll call centrelink and see if they can bridge for you to get over it.
Presumably this word salad is a good indication of the quality of your "thought" that I'm missing out on.
I'll bet it probably sounded a lot more clever in your head as well.
@EightImmortals: Not that you are likely to understand, but there is a significant difference between 'conquered/taken land' and 'native title' as determined under Mabo. Indeed, that was the central point of Mabo.
Which type of land claims are you whining about?
Are you arguing that if you steal something from a person, and then they die, its no longer theft?
@EightImmortals: Using this logic one should not be allowed to inherit title to land (I'm ok with this concept but you probably aren't).
@EightImmortals: There is many ways to obtain land. Militarily, politically, financially, legally. Your ancestors obtained it militarily. It is now being obtained financially by others and legally by others. That is the game. Your ancestors won for a while. You are now loosing. It is what it is. There is no need to be passive aggressive about it.
Is it even possible to have a sensible discussion on this topic?
Certainly not with people like you.
In the beginning…..
In-in-the begingging…
10 business days.
or 2 weeks to flatten the curve
Take it and you can visit your dying mother. Then you die as well
Who owned the land first, Israel or Palestine?
By more than 1,000 years, “Israel” predates “Palestine.” The land then became home primarily to an Arab population, again for more than a millennium. Both Jews and Arabs thus have a legitimate claim to the land. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict has seen myriad wrongs and brutalities on both sides.
The Quarn was written between 609CE and 632CE says
The Qur'an specifies that the Land of Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people, that God Himself gave that Land to them as heritage and ordered them to live therein.
Why did the Jews leave Israel?
During the Crisis of the Third Century, economic disruption and high taxation due to civil wars in the Roman Empire caused many Jews to migrate from the Land of Israel to Babylon under the more tolerant Persian Sassanid Empire, where an autonomous Jewish community existed in the area of Babylon.
BTW. I'm not Jewish.
Do you believe the Qur'an as a source of truth?
Do you believe the Qur'an as a source of truth?
No. i also don't believe the Bible as a true source.
It's written in the Qu'ran, that is no argument.
If you don't believe its the truth then what value does that statement have for you?
Would love to know which section specifies the above.If you don't believe its the truth then what value does that statement have for you?
Would love to know which section specifies the above.No value. Just giving three different quotes for people to make there mind up.
- Your statements specific to the Qur'an is filled with misinformation. While the Qur'an acknowledges that God once assigned specific lands to the Children of Israel (Israel being the children of Prophet Jacob not your modern day Israel), it does not affirm this land grant as an eternal or exclusive right, nor does it mandate their permanent residence there. Instead, the Qur'anic narrative emphasizes moral obedience and accountability to God, and it addresses the Children of Israel in the context of past events, rewards, and consequences.
“And [mention, O Muhammad], when Moses said to his people, 'O my people, remember the favor of Allah upon you when He appointed among you prophets and made you kings and gave you what He had not given anyone among the worlds. O my people, enter the Holy Land which Allah has assigned to you and do not turn back [from fighting in Allah's cause] and [thus] become losers.’” (Qur'an, 5:20-21)
“And We said after Pharaoh to the Children of Israel, ‘Dwell in the land, and when the [final] promise comes, We will bring you forth in [one gathering].’” (Qur'an, 17:104)
Clearly you enjoy spreading misinformation and that is the value. If you don't believe it is true yet you state it for an agenda - I wonder what that agenda is.
Please don't spread your lies in anyone's name but your own, speak the truth even if it is against yourself mate.
@InfiniteRegression: Don't blame me. They are quotes from Google. Best tell them its all wrong.
At least I know where you are coming from.
Do you believe in the Qu'ran? It's a yes or no answer.
Second question. Do you believe in the Bible. Again, yes or no.
@InfiniteRegression: So it's saying that Israelites should dwell there? Sounds like what curl is saying.
@gakko: I would say there is a big difference between dwell (live/reside) vs homeland as heritage and ordered them to live therein. As stated in my point above it does not affirm this land grant as an eternal or exclusive right, nor does it mandate their permanent residence there, it addresses the Children of Israel in the context of past events, rewards, and consequences.
@InfiniteRegression: Well yeah but people define it how it suits them when it comes to bibles. If it was muslims dwelling somewhere im sure it would be locked in as true blue heritage. It's a fictional text being used to fit an agenda no matter how its interpreted.
@gakko: Unlike the bible the original message remains unchanged word for word, radiocarbon dating of the earliest parchment on which the text is written, carried out at a laboratory at the University of Oxford, has placed it in the period between 568 - 645 CE (56-55 BH to 24-25 AH) with 95.4% probability. The result places the leaves close to the time of the Prophet Muhammad, who lived between c. 570 - 632. I would recommend rather than jumping to conclusions is do your research and then come to the conclusion on the message.
Contrary to your belief, history shows muslims from Indonesia have been coming to Australia for many years, they made contact with indigenous Australians as early as the 16th and 17th centuries unlike the example that has been set.
yes