PHEV Vs EV: What Do I Need to Know and What Should I Buy?

KinseyPadfoor on 20/09/2024 - 14:03
Last edited 20/09/2024 - 15:28 by 1 other user

Hi all, I am severely lacking in the automotive knowledge department and seeking some advice/direction to increase my knowledge on vehicles in the PHEV and EV space. I will soon be needing a new car and taking advantage of the FBT benefits associated with these vehicles seems to be the best way to go for my circumstances.

To me PHEVs don't seem that great because the ICE elements mean that the maintenance advantages that EVs have is lost and the distance that the electric component can support won't cover a trip to work and back for me each day (I have over a 100km round trip commute). We are also after a mid size SUV to cater for our family size (kid/dog) so that can make cost a factor for options that do have battery support for longer trips on a single charge above the cut-off for the FBT benefit eligibility.

The infrastructure for EVs on the other had doeant seem to be in place to make them a good investment at the moment either (still early tech, I dont yet have solar power at home either). Locations for charging near my home aren't great, limits options for long/interstate experiences etc.)

Does anyone have any advice, or have suggestions on vehicles or even resources where I can learn more about this stuff to make an informed decision?

First new car, current cars are over 20yrs old, it's a big investment for us so trying to work out what we need to know!

Thanks in advance!

Automotive Electric Vehicle

Comments

  • boomramada on 20/09/2024 - 14:29
    +3

    Just to make your decision easy, last month's car sales, top three;
    Medium SUV < $60k Toyota RAV4 (6712) Mitsubishi Outlander (2188) Kia Sportage (2051)
    Medium SUV > $60k Tesla Model Y (1330) Mercedes-Benz GLC (521) Lexus NX (520)

    https://www.drive.com.au/news/australian-new-car-sales-in-au…

    And hybrids is most populer https://www.mynrma.com.au/electric-vehicles/news/ev-sales-au…
    But I would still go for ICE.

    • AustriaBargain on 22/09/2024 - 17:05

      Are new Rav4s in stock again?

    • supersabroso on 23/09/2024 - 11:54
      +2

      If you care about money/cost efficiency then you should buy a petrol car or a hybrid car. If you care about fun/silence, technology and the environment then you should buy an EV. However, I would steer clear from PHEVs as they are not worth it. There's too much headache in plugging it in everyday to use it's tiny battery so that you can pretend your car is an EV because you can't afford a real EV. If you don't charge it, then you just wasted all your money and you should have bought a conventional hybrid car that never needs to be charged and is 500kg lighter. EV prices are dropping like no tomorrow and the cars will only get cheaper and better until 2028 when solid state batteries come out and everyone switches over to them (1200km+ of range and charges in an instant).

      • darque on 23/09/2024 - 14:15

        I have to agree with this sentiment. I know there's tax benefits with an EV currently but for those that jumped on the boat of an EV in the past few years, their 60k+ has already depreciated a hell of a lot. A few of my mates preordered a tesla for 70k+ and it was a great flex initially. However, they've regretted it now and would much rather use the money for a house upgrade/kids.

        Potentially towards the end of the decade from 2028 will be a better time to jump into EVs imo with solid state tech.

        I bought a second hand hybrid corolla MY18 in 2020 for about 23k which I can probably sell for the same price. The cost/benefit is still with hybrids given their resale value in a few years v EV which still costs considerably more even what tax breaks.

        I think the best stop gap is to go a second hand hybrid now which you can probably still sell in 5 years for close to what you paid to go full EV.

        • changyang1230 on 23/09/2024 - 15:49
          +1

          The depreciation (and the insurance) sting so people should consider if novated lease is worth the tax saving.

          Personally even if my Tesla long range model 3 (gotten for 81k, equivalent spec now goes for 72k) goes down to 30k over five years, my overall effective cost would have been not too different from keeping my original Mazda 6 which was worth 25,000.

          Once you also consider the lack of service, fuel saving (when paired with super cheap charging), all maintenance with pretax money etc, it can still work out especially for higher bracket people. But yes, if you are in lower bracket these depreciation and insurance issue may negate any other saving you otherwise got.

        • eddyah on 03/10/2024 - 12:38

          A few of my mates preordered a tesla for 70k+ and it was a great flex initially. However, they've regretted it now and would much rather use the money for a house upgrade/kids.

          Ahaha what clown buys a 70K car they can't afford.

          Sucks the insurance is so high but that's across the board with everything…

    • KinseyPadfoor on 26/09/2024 - 12:27

      I've test driven a 2024 Rav4. Totally get why it's the most popular one on the market but feel like EV or PHEV is the better way to go. I wish they offered more than a mild hybrid option in Rav4 style. The bZ4X is small and ugly haha

  • Che0063 on 20/09/2024 - 14:30
    +9

    Consider that even overnight charging on a basic wall outlet will give you 150km of charge - that's more than sufficient for your round trip commute + shopping/kids etc.

    If I were to purchase a car, I would get a basic A->B vehicle that satisfies my daily needs only. For all other needs I would seriously consider renting a vehicle for those 5 days per year I maybe might consider towing/long trips/camping/4WD. This balance changes depends on your personal needs… and that's why these decisions are mostly personal and dependent on your use case

    As you said, hybrid vehicles with small on-board batteries are unlikely to support your daily commute so they would not make sense. Consider that you are would also effectively drain the battery all the way to 0% on yoru daily commute - which for li-ion batteries is terrible for longevity. So I would go with an EV if it satisfied your daily needs. Seriously consider rentals as a stop-gap solution until charging infrastructure improves

    • cloudy on 20/09/2024 - 15:07
      +28

      Sensible buying logic.

      Too bad most people are like my father in law, he was shocked with my 340km range, he would only consider a Ev when it had 600km range. Yet I've never seen him drive more than 150km in a day in the last 10 years, and usually only does 20km per day.

      It's too common for people to buy a car with their most intensive use in mind even, though that might just happen once a year or even less frequently.

      • bhubb18 on 20/09/2024 - 17:45
        +1

        I guess the issue with an EV is that you are (relatively) capped to that compared to an ICE car.

        But I still 100% agree with you, EVs suit a lot of use cases most of the time

      • Ade99 on 21/09/2024 - 08:47
        -2

        You would buy a car with a view to a worse case situation. Not many options if you suddenly need to do a 500KM run in your EV which only has a sub 400KM range with out charging

        • changyang1230 on 21/09/2024 - 08:56
          +5

          There are plenty of DC chargers out there which could charge the battery from 20-80% in around 20-30 minutes. That’s how people have been doing long distance road trips, including an attempt of the big lap over 10 days.

          While it’s true that there’s a worst case situation that one needs to consider, and where EV is slightly less convenient for, most EV owners would tell you that their financial saving and the quality of the drive far outweigh this very occasional drawback where they just need to do a bit of planning for a 20-30 minute break.

        • Euphemistic on 21/09/2024 - 09:37
          +9

          How often does ANYONE actually do a surprise 500km trip? Most people plan for it ahead of time. You dont just wake up and have to drive 500km without being able to charge somewhere.

          Friend who owns an EV regularly does long trips.
          She prefers to break it into shorter legs with a 10-20min charge, enough for the next leg of the trip rather than back to full when it's empty.

          • cloudy on 21/09/2024 - 10:18

            @Euphemistic:

            How often does ANYONE actually do a surprise 500km trip?

            1 in 10,000 trips!

            but I also wont leave the house as the chance of death on the road is also approx 1 in 23,000.

          • supersabroso on 23/09/2024 - 06:59
            -2

            @Euphemistic: It's true that you probably won't do a surprise 500km trip. However, the range on these cars is 320km in the city. On the highway it's more like 250km which is nothing. You can't even go to Newcastle and back from Sydney.

        • LFO on 21/09/2024 - 10:34
          +3

          Not many options if you suddenly need to do a 500KM run

          That's when you hire a car. Probably an ICE one.

          Not always possible but for >500Km I'll recommend an aeroplane.

          500Km are a lot of driving hours. Been there, done that. Not the best activity.

          • Euphemistic on 21/09/2024 - 11:58
            -2

            @LFO: 500km is just a half day trip for a lot of people. Ive done it plenty, but wouldnt not buy an EV becasue id need to stop for half hour a few times a year that i actually do a 500km trip.

            • smartazz104 on 22/09/2024 - 17:18
              +1

              @Euphemistic: A minority != a lot.

              • Euphemistic on 22/09/2024 - 19:09

                @smartazz104: Maybe a minority of city dwellers, but if you live outside the capitals, a 500km trip is pretty normal - even if its 250km there and back in a day.

          • LFO on 22/09/2024 - 20:39

            @LFO: Well … some years ago a took a rather wonderful bus tour/expedition/adventure for a total of about 16 days, camping and all.

            The buscoach(!) driver did all the driving and we just sat back and admire the bush.
            Much to my surprise an almost magical 600km per day was the best distance to travel (with the coach driver driving).
            600km gives time to have breakfast slowly and lazily and still reaches your destination with sunlight and rested (to set up tents and so on).

            Yes some people do +1000 kilometers per day. But are they actually ENJOYING the journey or it is just a necessity to get there?

            • serpserpserp on 22/09/2024 - 20:50
              +1

              @LFO:

              Yes some people do +1000 kilometers per day. But are they actually ENJOYING the journey or it is just a necessity to get there?

              You must always make good time driving anywhere. It is a game that must always be played to one day get the "ultimate run" to your destination. One that you can regale to the lads and strangers alike at the pub.

      • Minimum chips on 22/09/2024 - 09:58
        +4

        I think there are a lot of people who don't trust themselves to plan ahead well enough, or circumstances not to work against them when they need the fringe-case car. What if the rentals are all gone?* What if my booking gets cancelled the day before the big holiday?* They feel like they need the certainty.

        People who don't have these anxieties often struggle to understand them. You often see people spruiking EVs who think they're fighting a battle of facts, when it's actually a battle of emotion.

        *If, dear reader, you were tempted by these statements to reply and explain how unlikely these circumstances are, you have proven the point.

        • cloudy on 22/09/2024 - 14:01
          +3

          Nar, I completely agree EV purchases are a battle of emotion and also a what I describe my children as newtons 1st law.

          The desire to continue their behaviour and resist change. Even ironically when change is what they want, they just don’t know it yet.

          Example, yesterday took my kids to the zoo, before we left the house they all refused, citing they want to stay home and play, until we forced them and once at the zoo they loved it! But when it’s time to go home for some food they refused again, wanting to keep playing more and loving the kids play. But once we got them home they complained about how starving they are.

          I’m sure, if we all lived in a world today with no cars and tomorrow we’re given the choice if 2 types of cars, ICE or EVS, with the current infrastructure we have today, half if not more people would choose an EV. But alas, this is not the world we live in.

          • KinseyPadfoor on 26/09/2024 - 12:40
            +1

            @cloudy: I've really appreciated this discussion! It's made me challenge my attitudes and explore if emotion or logic are guiding my decisions. I think when things like new cars cost so much money there is even more of a driver to select the option that captures all your needs under every circumstance. Really what does what you want for 80-90% of the time is a much better approach to take… if you can overcome the thinking of the former that is!

        • smartazz104 on 22/09/2024 - 17:19
          +1

          Must be the same people who buy a truck thinking they might carry something but the bed never gets dirty.

      • serpserpserp on 22/09/2024 - 17:11

        Yet I've never seen him drive more than 150km in a day in the last 10 years, and usually only does 20km per day.

        This is me but I usually drive much less per day. I think I have done maybe 350km-400km (round trip) for a family trip maybe twice in the last 8 years.

        Only time I drive long distances is for work in a work car anyway.

        But yes, if I want an EV, i'd really like a 600km+ range car. If it is short range, it needs to be really cheap. The MG4 is getting to that point.

      • boomramada on 27/09/2024 - 10:45

        My biggest drawback would be daily charging, having two cars, and one car space, which added daily chaos that I don't need.

        Some not-so-long distance travels are also an issue (ie trips with 600k round trip, ICE don't need to stop for fuel at all) or magical mystery travels, with no need to plan for charging stops but this is a less frequent issue.

        It's all about which car suits your lifestyle.

        I'm still ok with fueling the car when needed on the day of the cheapest fuel cycle or driving past Costco. One day I might break that habit, but not yet.

        I can see why people prefer PHEV now, they like the balance.

    • dukeGR4 on 22/09/2024 - 10:19
      -2

      As you said, hybrid vehicles with small on-board batteries are unlikely to support your daily commute so they would not make sense

      No, you don't make sense. my dad has a Camry Hybrid from 2015, with lots of stop start traffic and short distances and it has never ever been depleted, ever. and he's got a lead foot as well.

      if it's really that bad do you think taxi/uber operators would use them?

      • trongy on 22/09/2024 - 12:29
        +8

        The Camry hybrid sold in Australia is not a PHEV. It's a standard hybrid which uses the battery and electric motor when travelling at very low speeds and to assist the petrol motor when accelerating. The batteries are charged by the electric motor acting as a generator when braking or cruising on the petrol motor.

        PHEV refers to plug-in hybrid electric vehicles have larger batteries which can be charged from external source and can travel in pure electric mode for extended distances, usually between 50 and 80km, depending on the model. Once the batteries have discharged past a certain point the petrol motor will run and the car will function like a regular hybrid.

        It's a different use case for the batteries in a PHEV so your dad's experience with a Camry has no bearing.

  • RockyRaccoon on 20/09/2024 - 14:32
    -1

    Buy or doing anything based purely on tax impacts is always rather foolish.

    Define your needs like you have done and see what is most important and work back from there.

    Family size, daily travel, refueling time are some you have done, but no idea if you would say refueling time is more critical than how many interstate trips you might do. If you do these regularly then thats a major factor. If rarely you could just rent a car for those times.

    Also PHEV's dont just run on electricity, then switch to petrol only. They run hybrid after the plugged in power is consumed. They tend to be 40% or so more efficient than a petrol only car. While its a bit of a simple explanation. The PHEV motor powers a generator, which then charges the battery. In effect the motor tends to run at its optimal fuel consumption, while the battery part handles the surges in power need - acceleration which is the biggest consumer of fuel.

    If its a new car how long do you expect it to last. While EV's have lower maintenance costs, the battery replacement becomes a big factor. For example if it costs as some have claimed $20-25K to replace after 10 or so years, in reality its unlikely to be something anyone will do, since thats around half the cost of a new car. While the PHEV batter is far less there is the cost of the petrol motor that may need replacing. Like everything at a point replacing components might not be viable in any case.

    People buying a car that you want to move on from factor in those points. Unfortunately the data on EV resale as they get to the point of needing a new battery isnt there yet.

    Hope that gives you a little better understanding

    • netjock on 20/09/2024 - 15:56
      +1

      Buy or doing anything based purely on tax impacts is always rather foolish

      LOL you know people bid up houses so they can pay $1 of interest to the bank and claim a 47c tax deduction and hope that it grows.

      Before people go on about this. The in the UK banks will only lend you if rent is 145% of P&I monthly repayments.

      • Drakesy on 20/09/2024 - 17:07
        +3

        Sounds like we need to bring in UK lending laws.

        • netjock on 23/09/2024 - 10:10
          +1

          The problem seems to be people are trying to bet on an uncertain outcome (capital gains)

          vs certainty of income which is higher monthly rent (surplus cashflows)

          When they do stuff like pay into your super and then let compounding do the work they apply it to housing unfortunately they get it the wrong way around (negative cash flow with hope of a pot of gold in a few years). It is hard life living years struggling daily and living in hope of a pay off.

    • Euphemistic on 22/09/2024 - 09:02

      The PHEV motor powers a generator, which then charges the battery

      Depends on the system. Some have an ICE that is only a generator. Some have an ICE that works inline with the motor, like toyota hybrid, so the vehicle can be driven fully electric, hybrid or fully petrol through the same drivetrain. When the engine is running it can be assisted from the batterues via the electric motor, or the electirc motor can be spun by the engine to charge the batteries. The electric motor can be decoupled from the engine to run the drivetrain without the engine running.

      In some, the engine only drives a generator to charge the battery. And the vehicle is only driven from electric motors.

      Then theres some, like hybrid RAV4 that have an electric assist to the front engine driven wheels and an electric motor to drive the back wheels only from the battery.

      • May4th on 22/09/2024 - 14:03

        yes, eg Sealion 6 uses engine to charge only and is separate from drivetrain, so tends to be a lot less noisy during high revs and smoother

      • netjock on 23/09/2024 - 10:09

        Some have an ICE that is only a generator

        Nissan e-Power
        BMW i3 with range extender
        There was also Holden EV they took from the US Chevy division (can't remember the name)

    • Rally Dave on 25/09/2024 - 08:55
      +2

      Batteries aren't being replaced at 10 years. Tgat is such a fake news. What has been shown is that it is much like the life of an engine. It will more than likely out last the car but on occasions, there may be issues. Warranties are much longer than engines though and repair prices are often much less.
      Also with PHEV, the engines are also connected to the driveline in most instances for where ultimate power is needed and not just a generator.
      Tax impacts can be significant in certain circumstances so what would be foolish is not taking use of them when suitable.

  • Gdsamp on 20/09/2024 - 15:03
    +1

    https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/867446
    10 year warranty
    fbt exemption for NL'd EV

    Otherwise take your pick of the Chinese EVs.

    Novated lease can crater your borrowing power for mortgage though if that is a concern DYOR

    • boomramada on 20/09/2024 - 15:18

      Thats not mid size

      • Gdsamp on 20/09/2024 - 15:19
        +7

        It might just be cold

        • dm02 on 20/09/2024 - 15:24

          lmfao

        • boomramada on 22/09/2024 - 15:24

          probably need a rub then :)

  • [Deactivated] on 20/09/2024 - 15:09
    +1

    I am looking at the Outlander Exceed or the EV9 GT Line as a family car.

    Leaning towards to the Mitsubishi because it's a PHEV. But the 3 row is useless.

    In terms of ongoing cost. Well, also concerned about a battery+motor+ICE engine. Though, Mitsubishi is a proven formula given their PHEV is well tested.

    • pwnd on 22/09/2024 - 10:38

      I would hold off and wait for the Model Y update next year, to at least have a look. Rumoured to have seven seats, plus back screen for kids.
      Mitsubishi are great as a reliable entry level, but in my opinion feel rather cheap and rattly. The PHEV outlander is 70k plus.

      • [Deactivated] on 22/09/2024 - 10:44
        -1

        No thanks. No.

        The routine road trips with 300km each trip to remote towns make finding a petrol station hard enough already. Hence the EV9 is also not ideal. (If EV9 can do 700kms real world, would be a no brainer).

        Tesla as a car, is subpar at best.

        No, the outlander exceed tourer is well assembled and a proven car in terms of reliability with premature battery failure resolved. Money is less of a problem, more finding the suitable vehicle.

    • AusGP on 27/09/2024 - 16:31

      I managed to wrangle a Kia EV9 Earth under the LCT threshold so FBT free on novated lease. That might tip the scales with the EV9 if you can score a similar deal? The GT is nice but dont think you can get under LCT

      • changyang1230 on 27/09/2024 - 21:39

        I am so jealous you scored this 😂

      • [Deactivated] on 27/09/2024 - 22:24

        Just need the dealer to play around with trade in numbers and invoice the GT line accordingly. A few that I am aware managed it with BMW and Kia, of course, the benefit from FBT exemption is also capped at the LCT threshold - all bought with their own company rather than being ripped off by lease providers.

        • changyang1230 on 27/09/2024 - 22:30

          I was aware of some dealers doing this trick but it is likely illegal if you or the dealer are ever scrutinised.

          When I first heard about it I raised the idea to my local Kia dealership and the guy I spoke to categorically shot down this “low ball trade in” strategy.

          In the end I did get my EV9 air via the leasing company’s “special deal”, but getting Earth is definitely next level!

          • [Deactivated] on 27/09/2024 - 22:41

            @changyang1230: The responsibility goes back to the dealer if sht hits the fan.

            Furthermore, EV9 is not as popular as one might think. Kia can't shift them. I have made some enquiries as a cash buyout and the dealers were hinting substantial discounts.

            The GT Line eqv Carnival is $75k - $80k (hybrid) before any negotiation. Car market has changed slot. It's EV equivalent will not worth a while 50k more. It is a Kia at the end of the day.

            • AusGP on 28/09/2024 - 10:45

              @[Deactivated]: I think the GT is too high out of the range for it not to be audited. The Earth is already 18k off list price and the dealer said I may actually be approached by VicRoads as they had some troubles registering the vehicle (more an avoidance of stamp duty query from VicRoads).

              You're right that EV9 are hard to move (in some suburbs) but I compared the price i got for the Earth with worldwide prices and its only like 10k more than Korean price and on par with all other countries or lower. Only anomaly is pricing in China

              • [Deactivated] on 28/09/2024 - 11:10

                @AusGP: "GT is too high out of the range for it not to be audited."

                Possibly. The law is that it doesn't attract LCT from when it lands in AU. So, if at the point of entry into AU, and wholesale from Kia to the dealers is under LCT threshold, then no issue. RRP is such a BS concept.

                GT Line demand is worse than Earth being much more expensive. $20k discount without even asking. (Won't be under LCT threshold for outright purchase).

                • AusGP on 28/09/2024 - 11:18

                  @[Deactivated]: Yeah I suspect KIA HQ will need to chip in a significant discount (e.g. 15k) for the dealer to be able to get it under LCT.

                  I know for the EV9 Air HQ was chipping in with some discounts to get under LCT on a consistent basis without dealers taking a huge haircut

          • AusGP on 28/09/2024 - 10:53

            @changyang1230: Yeah initially I saw the EV9 Air deal but the lack of the second motor wasn't going to do it for my wife's need for speed lol.

            But out of the blue I saw an ad for a dealership bit further out and sent them a message as a hail mary and was pleasantly surprised they wanted to offload their Earth (which seems like they've had since early 2024 and hadn't been able to shift off the showroom floor)

            BTW your NL spreadsheet is amazing.

            • changyang1230 on 28/09/2024 - 14:24

              @AusGP: Haha thanks. I am the unofficial unpaid spruiker of FBT exempt NL. If only the NL providers give me even 0.1% of their revenue I was partially responsible for :P

  • EightImmortals on 20/09/2024 - 15:10

    We have a Rav4 Hybrid and love it, gets around 850km on a 50lt tank, can hop in and drive anywhere and not have to worry about charging points, cues and wait times. If you ONLY do short trips and can find an EV SUV and you feel the cost is warranted then you might prefer to choose that.

    Otherwise just watch out for hidden taxes, in some states (Pretty sure Vic already does (surprise, surprise) )you could get hit with double taxation. With an EV you get hit with some kind of road tax each year because poor gubmint reckons it's missing out on the taxation it would have pilfered if you were buying petrol. If you have a PHEV they slug you that tax PLUS the 50% tax you pay at the petrol station as well. If you have an normal ICE or a normal hybrid (not PHEV) you just pay the petrol tax.

    I'm not sure what the numbers are, just something for you to consider.

    • Kib33 on 20/09/2024 - 15:45
      +3

      Can I ask where you base this information regarding Victoria charging hidden road taxes on an EV from please?

      A current link to a website would do.

    • changyang1230 on 20/09/2024 - 15:48
      +5

      Victoria’s EV tax was struck down one year ago so it’s no longer a thing.

      https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/ev-owners-to-rec…

    • supersabroso on 23/09/2024 - 11:29
      -2

      I agree that this is a great car but the Haval H6 Ultra hybrid is $14k cheaper and can go 1,100km with it's 61L tank. It also has far more technology, is more luxurious in addition to being a few centimetres longer, taller and wider with almost no wait time. This is a better choice if you intend to buy the car and stick with it. If you like to sell your cars every 3 years then you're better off with the Toyota.

  • MS Paint on 20/09/2024 - 15:42
    +8

    Sounds like a 3yo 2 litre i30 hatchback would be perfect. You don't need an SUV for a kid and a dog.

    Put the $40k difference into something else.

    @curlcurl - before you go on a rant the OP did ask for other suggestions.

    • freefall101 on 20/09/2024 - 17:43
      +1

      Problem is that i30 is still going to be $15-20k, then add petrol costs and higher maintenance costs.

      If OP is doing 20k km a year, it's going to be at least a couple of grand a year in fuel, it's the perfect option for an EV.

      And the whole FBT thing is seriously worth it. My out of pocket over 5 years for a $48k car and all the costs (rego, insurance, maintenance, tyres, NL fees, interest, baloon payment, everything) is $50k. If an i30 over 5 years is $20k up front+ $5k insurance, $5k rego, $10k fuel, few grand maintenance, it's not really any cheaper. Plus I have the money I put aside to buy a car sitting in the offset account, it's cashflow friendly too. Depends on income, but I'm not in the top tax bracket.

      It comes down to OP running the numbers themselves, but when I was in the same position I didn't buy a used car for that reason. However I was looking when used car prices were through the roof 18 months ago, they're better now

      • MS Paint on 20/09/2024 - 18:53
        +3

        Don't forget depreciation in your figures.

        After 5 years the i30 will lose about $8k
        After 5 years the EV will lose about $30k

        everything

        Including the $x/day to charge it?

        • freefall101 on 20/09/2024 - 21:22
          +2

          After 5 years the i30 will lose about $8k
          After 5 years the EV will lose about $30k

          You're telling me that in 5 years, an 8 year old i30 is going to be worth $12k, but a $40k EV SUV is going to be worth $10k, despite still having 3 years of warranty left? Really?

          But let's talk depreciation. Let's say OP spends $40k buying and running an i30, or could spend $40k buying and running an EV. Even with your ridiculous depreciation calculation you're saying they'll be worth about the same. So what's your point here?

          Including the $x/day to charge it?

          Yup, that's FBT free too and built into my price. Which for me is just a bit of a bonus, I mostly charge off solar or for free at work.

          Plus it doesn't cost much, go with 5km per kwh (which is conservative), 20k km a year is 4,000kwh consumed. Assuming no EV plan with free charging, at 20c per kwh that's $800 a year (again, personally I pay 16c off peak). After tax around $550.

          Whereas an i30 at 7L/100km, 20k km a year, with a $1.80 fuel price that's $2,500 a year. So if you want to add an extra $500 to the cost of the EV, you can add another $500 to my pricing on the i30 as well.

          Not to mention OP would get the car size they want and a brand new car, rather than a 3 year old i30.

          • MS Paint on 20/09/2024 - 21:41
            +1

            @freefall101: Ok. You win. I lose.

            but a $40k EV SUV is going to be worth $10

            You said it was $48k so about $20k after 5 years will be about right as my guesstimate.

            How do you claim the car charging component of your home electricity bill through salary sacrifice arrangements? Not being smart, genuinely curious.

            • freefall101 on 20/09/2024 - 22:33
              +1

              @MS Paint: Sorry, I was going off OPs $40k value, I totally forgot what I wrote (it’s a Friday after a long week).

              It’s possible to claim 4.2c per km for an EV. I had to send my lease company how many km drive, they sent me back the money for it. https://www.ato.gov.au/businesses-and-organisations/hiring-a…

              So I sent my NL company a form saying I had driven about 10k km at the end of the FBT year and they sent me $4xx (as I had already paid for it through my salary deductions, which since those are pre-tax cost me more around $250). Basically free money for me, as I charge off solar most of the time.

  • netjock on 20/09/2024 - 15:59
    -5

    I have over a 100km round trip commute

    This is your first problem. EV range is 300km - 450km (yeah you can pay another $10k for 100km range). Can you charge enough overnight every night (or at work) during a week day. Then rest of the time it is a near city run about (you have probably a 400km radius, you get to destination, recharge and come back)

    FBT is going to be a lot of help when you pay the savings in fees for a flat bed truck to pick you up a few times a year.

    • changyang1230 on 20/09/2024 - 16:57
      +9

      ^ how to say “I don’t have any real life experience with EV” without saying “I don’t have any real life experience with EV”.

      The flat bed truck requirement is for foolhardy people who decide to ignore the 10 different low battery warnings and let the battery go flat fully.

      In reality, someone with 100km commute daily is PRECISELY someone who stands to gain the most from the savings on electricity. At 30,000km you are looking at some 3000 to 4000 dollars in fuel at today’s price, and with electricity (roughly 4000-5000 kWh) this can be anywhere from 300 to 1500 dollars in electricity.

      People will wake up with fully charged battery with 400km range, 100km commute is something that can be topped up easily with the cheapest granny plug each night, not to mention dedicated wall charger.

  • JIMB0 on 20/09/2024 - 16:48
    +4

    It's a bit early in the cycle for an EV thread. Are you sure this wasn't meant to be a question about real-estate?

    • Minimum chips on 22/09/2024 - 10:02
      +1

      "The way house prices are going, gen z will only be able to afford a car to live in. What is a good first home-car for my nephew?"

      There, now we're back on track.

  • freefall101 on 20/09/2024 - 17:34
    +2

    The infrastructure for EVs on the other had doeant seem to be in place to make them a good investment at the moment either (still early tech, I dont yet have solar power at home either). Locations for charging near my home aren't great, limits options for long/interstate experiences etc.)

    I'd install a charger at home anyway, as it's a lot cheaper than charging at a charging point. I regularly charge at night (when solar is useless anyway) and it's 16c/kwh, so about $8 to charge the entire thing. if you go to a charging location you'll be looking at paying 35-70c per kwh. They're faster, but once you're in the habit of charging at home you'll wonder how you lived without it.

    Interstate trips have never been an issue for me, although it is important to at least look at where to charge rather than being able to rely on just driving around until you find a petrol station. Dunno where you are but I've never had an issue on eastern states, charging points are everywhere. If you do a lot of driving out into the middle of nowhere to camp it might be a problem, anywhere driving along major highways all you need to do is factor in a coffee/lunch break somewhere.

  • sumyungguy on 20/09/2024 - 19:28
    -1

    Sounds like you're not well setup for charging. Consider a hybrid Corolla, Yaris Cross or RAV4. Your depreciation loss will be lower than owning an EV. BTW, please don't call it an investment, cars at this price point are expenses; depreciating assets.

    • supersabroso on 23/09/2024 - 11:35

      This is good advice, especially for electric cars as Toyota even has a timeline for all the new technological updates. 2028 is when all the current electric cars will be completely worthless as solid state batteries are released. Toyota says 1200km of range and it charges in a fraction of the time it takes to charge conventional batteries. Imagine buying a Blackberry when you know the iPhone/Galaxy Note is about to come out next year.

      • sumyungguy on 23/09/2024 - 12:30

        I wholly concur with the comment you made further up but there's an EV owner hybrid hater downvoting us. I also posted about operating costs; EVs still cost more to run which is fine for those who are graciously saving the planet, but regular people who rate transport as an overhead should persist a little longer with hybrid or ICE.

      • Euphemistic on 23/09/2024 - 13:01

        Toyota says 1200km of range and it charges in a fraction of the time it takes to charge

        Quick charging is great but 1200km of range is just dumb especially as charge infrastructure improves. Part of the reason they are hyping this 'new technology' is to keep people buying ICE and hybrid cars while the likes of Toyota finally get thier finger out and build some EVs.

        The only people that would actively use 1200km of range are outback caravanners. Anyone who wants to haul around a battery 5 times as big as they need for regular use is just dumb. We just dont need more than 600km of range - even for a long holiday trip.

        As for your phone example there are very few people who need more than a days worth of battery life. Why would you want the extra expense and weight of a battery that lasts a week when you plug it in every night. Plus, my $200 Android phone does 90% of what a new iPhone will do, and 100% of what I need. Why pay for more features?

  • Euphemistic on 21/09/2024 - 01:40
    +3

    There are more chargers out there than you think. Anyone who tells you there arent enough chargers for long trips musf be taken with a grain of salt. It likely they dont know what they are taking about amd cluld just be parrotting the anti EV rhetoric. If you are truly worried about it then a PHEV is a waste of time too.

    Sounds like youd be better off with a newer 10yo car for now if your current vehicles are failing. Maybe wait 1-2 years and go full EV.

    PHEV is a stop gap at best, popular because fossil fuel interests have brainwashed us that EVs have to have 1000km of range and 3min chargers available every 5km.

    • supersabroso on 23/09/2024 - 11:37

      PHEVs are definitely not worth it unless your buying the MG HS PHEV at $37k drive away, that's a steal, however I haven't heard the best reviews about that car. Go fully EV or stick with a petrol/conventional hybrid car.

  • alUK234 on 21/09/2024 - 08:19
    +2

    Just to add. I live in Melbourne and have an Ioniq 6 EV with approx 400 to 450km range. Never had a problem woth range, just plug it in to a regular wall socket in the garage and even then not needed eveey night. Manage to get a free charge at shopping centres and council facilities every now and then which is a bonus.

    Also went to Falls Creek, stopped for 15-20 mins for lunch/ charge and there were lots of options.

    Price wise, i wanted to buy a nicer car anyway and the price difference is not large when you consider the performance and running cost (simplified/less servicing, due to regen braking - less wear on brake pads and charging vs filling up way cheaper).

    Worth noting though that getting a free charge is pretty rare unless you literally obsess over it and wait around when busy and that you would have issues in some super rural places if you dont plan well.

    Thought i'd throw that out there as an actual experience.

  • OB5park5 on 21/09/2024 - 17:03
    +8

    I don't think I've ever met anyone who drives 500km or more without a stop for a pee, coffee, food or just a break. I see some people here think there are still too few EV chargers around. There have been hundreds installed around the country in just the past couple of years. It's no longer a problem, even for the cheaper EVs with shorter ranges. Planning breaks at spots where there are fast chargers is now easy.I speak from experience.

    I love the fact that I can charge for nothing at home (and I don't have solar PV panels yet). I love the instant torque and the power of my EV. I have to restrain myself so I don't shorten the lives of my tyres. I love all the features and luxury. I can even run the aircon when the car's parked.

    I love never having to buy another litre of petrol. The price of fuel dropped a bit recently, but petrol is still $1.60/litre or more in most places, and even more out in the country. How's that fuel cost going for you ICE owners?? My partner and I used to do long trips in her ICE SUV. Since I bought my EV, we've done all our long trips in my car. The ICE is 19th-century technology. I will never go back. Charging costs a fraction of the price of fuel for the same trip. At some resorts it's free. When you're at your destination, you can easily charge overnight using a 10A or 15A domestic power socket if you have access to one.

    Not long ago I met someone who's driving around the world (for the second time) in a Tesla. I recently met someone from Perth in Sydney who is doing a clockwise trip around Australia with his family in a Kia EV9 towing a big camper trailer. His car can tow up to 2,500kg (braked load).

    The low centre-of-mass of an EV makes it much safer than most ICE cars. It's also much less likely to catch fire after a smash. The difference is a factor of about 40 or more, in spite of the anti-EV propaganda that we all see. Burning ICE cars are so common they don't make the news. Only a fire involving an EV is likely to get publicity.

    I won't go back. Get an EV.

    • changyang1230 on 21/09/2024 - 17:08

      Wait did you actually mean around the world or around Australia? :P

      • OB5park5 on 21/09/2024 - 17:15

        The guy driving a Tesla was going around the world. He was driving via Asia, so his Australian visit was just a side trip by air. The EV9 owner and his family are driving around Australia.

        • changyang1230 on 23/09/2024 - 15:51

          I see! I know about the EV9, first I have heard about Tesla round the world however :)

    • TEER3X on 22/09/2024 - 20:22

      I did 540km once, but had to stop for a few minutes to use the facilities. I'm sure others have done way more in a single trip

  • reddot12 on 21/09/2024 - 19:26
    +3

    After 13 months with my EV - I've never had to visit a bowser. I have had 3-4 trips from Brisbane to Sydney and back all with no worries for charging(3x charges each way)

    The greatest of all - my EV plan. 8c per kwH between MN and 06:00am and FREE power between 11 and 14:00 DAILY. That means huge savings on energy usage at home.

    I drive approx 90-110km if not daily 3-4 weekly - I don't use superchargers, only for drive interstate e.g. Sydney. I charge at home like most people do - via granny plug.

    Range? Who cares about range - I plan my journey via apps, make sure I charged the night prior. SIMPLES.

    The greater public need more awareness and education on EVs. Go drive a hybrid and an EV and weigh your options.

    • dp1 on 21/09/2024 - 19:51
      +3

      I've had my EV 15 months. I started working at a new place a few weeks ago. I'm overdue to check my tyre pressures and realised that I have NFI where the nearest petrol station is to my workplace, because I don't notice them any more.

    • TightAssDude on 22/09/2024 - 08:30
      +1

      Top comment mate, and OP needs to read this.

      I'm 1700 km into my ev journey (m3 2024)

      $17 in charging costs, plug in and forget.

      Regarding efficiency, I'm averaging 118 wkm, with is around 500km.

      The ICE outlander feels spongy and antiquated now.

      Go ev, its a no brainer

  • SlickMick on 21/09/2024 - 23:11
    -5

    The battery technology just isn't there for many Australians yet.

    I don't think any PHEV will get you to work and home, so that's not an option.
    (BTW, are PHEVs still eligible for the FBT exemption? That was only for 1 year before the gov realised that PHEVs aren't low emission.)

    How far are your road trips, and are you prepared to route according to charging stations, and wait for the battery to recharge?
    They'll never produce an EV that will work for me with the current battery technology.

    I currently have a PHEV, so I use battery for my 20km daily commute, and ICE for road trips and whenever my daily running around exceeds ~50km.
    If I ever move and have a longer commute, I'll regret getting a PHEV.

    The only other option I see is to have an EV for the daily commute and an ICE for road trips. If you're already a 2-car family, now you'll need 2 EVs plus at least 1 ICE, which I just don't think is feasible.

    • trapper on 23/09/2024 - 13:23

      BTW, are PHEVs still eligible for the FBT exemption?

      Yeah they are.

  • enzso on 22/09/2024 - 09:01

    I've had a BYD Sealion 6 PHEV for 3 months now. Been a great buy and with the FBT exemptions on a novated lease it's been so much cheaper to own than our previous ICE car.

    However PHEVs don't make sense if your daily commute is beyond their EV range. You're better off looking at a regular hybrid or an EV, but of course you don't get the FBT benefits with a standard hybrid.

    So I guess EV is your answer. Install a home charger and take a look at the just-released Skoda Enyaq if it's in your price range (low $70k on road)

    • May4th on 22/09/2024 - 14:05

      how much fuel consumption do you average in EV only mode?

      • enzso on 05/10/2024 - 19:44

        13kwh/100km @ 2.2l/100k.

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