PHEV Vs EV: What Do I Need to Know and What Should I Buy?

KinseyPadfoor on 20/09/2024 - 14:03
Last edited 20/09/2024 - 15:28 by 1 other user

Hi all, I am severely lacking in the automotive knowledge department and seeking some advice/direction to increase my knowledge on vehicles in the PHEV and EV space. I will soon be needing a new car and taking advantage of the FBT benefits associated with these vehicles seems to be the best way to go for my circumstances.

To me PHEVs don't seem that great because the ICE elements mean that the maintenance advantages that EVs have is lost and the distance that the electric component can support won't cover a trip to work and back for me each day (I have over a 100km round trip commute). We are also after a mid size SUV to cater for our family size (kid/dog) so that can make cost a factor for options that do have battery support for longer trips on a single charge above the cut-off for the FBT benefit eligibility.

The infrastructure for EVs on the other had doeant seem to be in place to make them a good investment at the moment either (still early tech, I dont yet have solar power at home either). Locations for charging near my home aren't great, limits options for long/interstate experiences etc.)

Does anyone have any advice, or have suggestions on vehicles or even resources where I can learn more about this stuff to make an informed decision?

First new car, current cars are over 20yrs old, it's a big investment for us so trying to work out what we need to know!

Thanks in advance!

Automotive Electric Vehicle

Comments

- supersabroso on 23/09/2024 - 11:40
  
  PHEVs only make sense if you need to go beyond your EV range and use your fuel tank. Otherwise what's the point of buying a PHEV when you only use the electric battery? EV cars have 5x the capacity of a tiny PHEV battery and you never need to do an oil change or lug around/maintain an ICE drive train.
  
  However, if you don't plug in a PHEV everyday then it's useless and you should have just bought a cheaper hybrid that you never have to plug in and is 500kg lighter. It's a very niche car for those that want a fully EV car but can't afford it/justify the price increase.
  
  At the moment petrol cars still come out on top for price vs fuel savings up to 15,000km/year, after that HEV for 20,000km+/year, EVs for 40,000km+/year. However, the experience is definitely better as you get more and more electric.
Windows98 on 22/09/2024 - 13:09

You'd go with a plug in Hybrid if you live close enough to where you work or regularly travel to use just the battery between charges and have/want/need the option to use petrol on longer runs or use for towing etc when needed.

If you don't need the longer range and can work out the distances with charging then that is the better choice because like you said you don't need the maintenance of petrol engines.
GordonD on 22/09/2024 - 13:22

+1

Ha, I solved this problem two decades ago.

You have an EV that's light and cheap because it only has enough batteries for about 200 km range. That would do the overwhelming majority of peoples day to day driving. And the lower cost would get EVs into more peoples hands quicker.

Then you have a trailer with an ICE engine and generator in it. In a box trailer you could put the engine in the front, the generator under the box, and the fuel tank under the back. The ICE could be optimised for high efficiency and low emissions. If you're going on a trip you just hook the generator trailer up to the EV, turning it all into a hybrid for the trip, but not requiring you to carry around an ICE engine every day when you don't need it. A family with multiple EVs would only require one trailer. Or they could hire them out to people at service stations on the outskirts of cities for people to pick up when they were heading out, and drop back off as the returned. They'd also be handy to get an EV home if you let it run out of battery, much easier than having to load the dead EV onto the back of a tow truck. The road service organisations would just tow one behind their service vehicles for when someone needs it.

And, as a bonus on your trip, or generally, you could actually use it to carry things. Meaning you could get by with a smaller lighter car.
- May4th on 22/09/2024 - 14:09
  
  +1
  
  I know you are trying to be funny but that's actually how PHEVs work for those that don't want to be limited to charging stations
  - GordonD on 22/09/2024 - 18:22
    
    I'm not trying to be funny. Its a serious attempt to solve two problems. One problem that EVs are far heavier and more expensive than they need to be because they have to carry enough heavy batteries for long trips they only occasionally make. And the other problem that hybrids have the same problem, that they have to carry around a big heavy ICE when for most trips they make just a bit more battery capacity would get them there. The problem is with heavy batteries or a heavy ICE is that you then have to build a heavier car to carry them. Take out 200 kgs of either battery or ICE and you can build your car 400 kgs lighter.
    
    So build a lighter cheaper EV, then add an ICE+generator on the back in a trailer when and only when needed. People know when they are going on long trips.
    
    The alternate solution would be to split an EVs battery pack in two, put half in the EV, and fit the other half under the tray of a trailer and attach it when and only when the range was needed. It would have the added benefit of being able to charge the two separately in half the time. And the battery trailer would do double duty as your big home battery that would charge even if your EV was at work during the day, then when you came home from work it would charge up your EV for the next day. You've probably already got a home battery anyway, so why not put it in a trailer so when you're taking a trip it would extend the range of your EV. Its no use leaving it at home because you're not there to use the power its storing.
- [Deactivated] on 22/09/2024 - 14:15
  
  That's the Tesla range extender.
  
  https://forums.tdiclub.com/index.php?threads/tesla-range-ext…
  - GordonD on 22/09/2024 - 18:24
    
    When I originally proposed the idea a long time ago I asked a question and couldn't get an answer. Are any EVs build in a way that means you could charge the battery while the battery was supplying power to drive the car. I'd guess they simply aren't designed to be able to do that. But since all the electronics are there to do both, it would be just a matter of configuring it all to operate at the same time.
    - sumyungguy on 22/09/2024 - 18:26
      
      BMW i3 REx
      - GordonD on 22/09/2024 - 18:41
        
        @sumyungguy: Yes, that clearly would have been. Because it had an (optional?) range extender. But that makes it a hybrid. Not a (B)EV.
        
        sumyungguy on 22/09/2024 - 18:51
        
        @GordonD: The engine was only a generator, not connected to the drivetrain
        
        GordonD on 22/09/2024 - 18:57
        
        @sumyungguy: All the Nissan e-Power hybrids are now like that. The engine doesn't connect to the drive train. And even going back to the GM Volt, it was initially designed so the motor was only a generator, then they realised that on the highway what was the point of having the ICE supply its power to a 90% efficient generator, then the electricity go to a 90% efficient motor, they could get better highway fuel consumption by a direct connection "top gear". Generators and motors and electronics have gotten better since then, and Nissan says it doesn't need that.
        
        The BMW does highlight how small an ICE you can get by with if it is only a generator.
    - May4th on 22/09/2024 - 19:48
      
      Are any EVs build in a way that means you could charge the battery while the battery was supplying power to drive the car.
      
      the BYD PHEVs are like that too, ie. engine charges battery only and does not supply powertrain. the newer PHEVs are built this way to give smoother drive and better engine efficiency
      - sumyungguy on 22/09/2024 - 19:55
        
        @May4th: I'm under the impression hybrids are driven with both electric and ICE motors
        
        May4th on 22/09/2024 - 19:58
        
        @sumyungguy: PHEVs aren't the same as traditional hybrids
        they can be driven on EV mode only for one usually with a smaller battery compared to BEV.
        earlier iterations of PHEVs (Mitsi) had engines cut in at higher revs but this was inefficient, noisy and jerky. the later ones uses engine to charge/power battery with no direct connection to powertrain
        
        sumyungguy on 22/09/2024 - 20:11
        
        @May4th: Plug-ins have higher capacity batteries that can't be topped to capacity from day-to-day driving. But they're still hybrids. Which PHEV do you believe is powered only by electric motors?
        
        May4th on 22/09/2024 - 20:26
        
        @sumyungguy: the newer Nissan and BYD PHEVs can operate in pure-electric mode, just like any other PHEV with enough charge, or a battery electric vehicle (BEV). It can also run as a range-extender ie. the electric motor drives the wheels and the petrol engine acts as a generator, making electricity. Or it can act as a parallel hybrid like a Toyota RAV4, the electric motor and petrol engine driving the wheels together. hope that explains it a bit better
        
        sumyungguy on 22/09/2024 - 20:29
        
        @May4th: e-POWER is not really a hybrid. All of the Toyotas are hybrids (bZ4X is all-electric). Which BYD models are PHEV without an ICE as part of the drivetrain?
        
        May4th on 22/09/2024 - 20:33
        
        @sumyungguy: read my post again - it has a mode where ICE does not directly engage drive train as opposed to your traditional hybrids. BYD sea lion 6 / shark has this set up. by definition PHEV has an ICE
        
        It can also run as a range-extender ie. the electric motor drives the wheels and the petrol engine acts as a generator, making electricity.
        
        https://carnewschina.com/2024/05/29/how-byds-5th-generation-….
        
        sumyungguy on 22/09/2024 - 20:42
        
        @May4th: BYD Sea Lion 6 & Shark 6 are PHEV, plug-in hybrid EV's with battteries large enough to drive at practical speeds unlike the Toyotas. But they still have both electric and ICE motors. You're under the impression the engine only charges the battery. This is true only for e-POWER and BMW REx, among others of which I have no knowledge.
        
        May4th on 22/09/2024 - 20:44
        
        @sumyungguy: i'm not sure I'm getting your point, yes all PHEVs have both ICE and electric motors, that's what PHEVs are by definition
        
        BYD PHEV actually has three modes - one where it acts as a BEV, ie uses battery only, the second HEV mode (once battery gets low) the engine only charges the battery, like Nissan e-power. and a third where they act as parallel hybrid similar to Toyota Hybrids if you want performance.
        don't take my word for it
        https://www.byd.com/au/byd-super-dm-plug-in-hybrid-technolog…
        
        among others of which I have no knowledge
        
        yes, like BYD
        
        sumyungguy on 22/09/2024 - 20:51
        
        @May4th:
        
        the later ones uses engine to charge/power battery with no direct connection to powertrain
        
        This I think is incorrect. All hybrids have ICE and electric motors integrated in their drivetrains. REx and e-POWER save weight by not having ICE transmissions - their engines are used only as generators.
        
        May4th on 22/09/2024 - 20:54
        
        @sumyungguy: it literally says exactly that on their website which I have linked. if your point is about not having the capability of direct engagement, sure, obviously having the option of parallel system means they have option of direct engagement. I fail to see how that's a benefit though, the efficiency with the extra weight is negligible - it's the engine and battery that carries the most weight. in fact Nissan's fuel efficiency is inferior to Toyota's parallel hybrid
        
        HEV Series Mode
        Drive further
        .
        When the battery power falls below the user-set SOC value, the engine will automatically engage for range extension.
        .
        While the Xiaoyun engine acts as a generator charging the battery, the wheels are driven by the electric motor, making HEV mode the ideal companion for extending range.
        
        sumyungguy on 22/09/2024 - 21:02
        
        @May4th: We'll just have to agree to disagree on the differences between hybrid, PHEV and EV.
        
        May4th on 22/09/2024 - 21:08
        
        @sumyungguy: there's not much to disagree on, the technology is black and white, perhaps we have different interpretations on the semantics, which is largely irrelevant. the information is out there if you want to do your research prior to buying
        
        sumyungguy on 22/09/2024 - 21:13
        
        @May4th:
        
        PHEVs aren't the same as traditional hybrids … the later ones uses engine to charge/power battery with no direct connection to powertrain
        
        I view this as factually incorrect, but we may as well be spitballing theology at this point
        
        May4th on 22/09/2024 - 21:25
        
        @sumyungguy: I should clarify I meant later PHEVs iterations - in case that's a source of misunderstanding. nissan's epower is somewhat unique in that it's not a PHEV (ie. it does not plug in and cannot be recharged) - it's an interpretation of a hybrid system, whereas BYD basically switches between all 3 (BEV/conventional hybrid/generator based hybrid). so I can see how it can be difficult to differentiate between the labels. as you say, semantics and theology
sumyungguy on 22/09/2024 - 21:24

+1

This thread got a bit too techy for OP who admits to be severely lacking in automotive knowledge. Here's something perhaps useful, a 2023 report on operating costs which includes EVs, hybrids and ICE.
bcarp on 22/09/2024 - 21:42

+1

FWIW, we have had non-plug-in Toyota/Lexus hybrids for 15 years. They are a no-brainer replacement for straightforward ICE. I'm not sure I see a place for ICE any longer.

We've transitioned fully to EVs. We have one Tesla & one non-Tesla. We've done trips to NSW country towns, bush areas, Melbourne/Sydney/Brisbane/Canberra/Thredbo. I would not personally want to do it without the Tesla charging network, so the non-Tesla stays for city use only. It's been no issue at all using an app called ABRP to plan the trips.

My round trip commute everyday is 120-150km, depending on which office I'm attending. It's a non-issue.

I find it difficult to see where a PHEV sits. With the full weight of the ICE & the full weight of the electric motors & battery (larger than non-PHEV & smaller than EV), to me it seems like a compromised system. It's probably a EV, but for those with range anxiety… but range anxiety in an EV disappears once you actually have one provided you go into the EV world with proper planning.
- KinseyPadfoor on 26/09/2024 - 12:32
  
  Thanks for the feedback! Hearing more experiences of EV is helping reduce the anxiety I think!
dealsucker on 23/09/2024 - 10:19

+3

Plug-in hybrids are utterly daft. You are lugging a heavy engine plus gearbox when running as an EV and when the battery is depleted, you are lugging a heavy battery as a dead weight. There are no other advantages either - you still have to service the ICE engine, there's gearbox and all the additional complexity.
apple2016 on 23/09/2024 - 10:41

some of the PHEV you can consider are :
volvo xc 60
audi Q5

PHEV are more expensive, but you need not worry about charging when on long trips.
- SeVeN11 on 23/09/2024 - 11:03
  
  +2
  
  most people don't drive more than 200km a day most of the time.
  
  maybe do 2-3 >300km+ trip year.
  
  EV just need a charging spot halfway and a place to charge when you arrive and it's relatively easy.
  
  I think the savings you get from not needing to change oil and maintain the ICE component of the PHEV far exceeds the benefit of extra range that you need 2-3 times a year.
trapper on 23/09/2024 - 13:32

-2

If you have the budget for it get the Tesla model Y.

If you want something a lot cheaper get the MG HS PHEV.

You won't be able to do your 100km commute on pure electric unless you can charge at work, but fuel use will still be very low.
Rally Dave on 26/09/2024 - 12:28

We bought a new Kona EV Premium earlier this year as our second car and run around and now take it nearly everywhere as we find driving without an engine a much nicer experience.
We live in regional nsw and travel mostly country trips so our efficiency is lower than a city EV but we have still found no issue. We've done a few trips with most hotels having charging so only ended up needing 10-15min of charging along a bigger trip to get to the next point.
If I was going to do a lot of trips, I would go with an EGMP 800V platform for the quicker charging, but the Kona has done its fine and we absolutely love it, the quality and the features. We charge at home 99% off the time of a standard 230v plug. The Model Y would be my next option (my brother has one) as it is roomy and good value for money. I didn't like any of the other Chinese made cars (Polestar close but not for money) and personally wouldn't buy a Chinese made car so is really only Korean or European for me at this stage.
Make sure you understand what features are important and what you want to do with it.
- KinseyPadfoor on 26/09/2024 - 12:31
  
  Appreciate the feedback. Model Y is on the list to look at. I think i would like more boot space/less rounded back than the model Y has but I shouldnt let that stop me.
  - Rally Dave on 26/09/2024 - 17:11
    
    I think if Hyundai bring out the Ioniq7, or Kia the EV6, they would probably be the perfect car. If it came under the FBT exemption, I would get the Ioniq5 N. I'd recommend it over the ModelY but not sure about the space for the dog. I also couldn't stand not have a dashboard and having to go through the screen for everything, so it wasn't just being made in China that stopped me getting the ModelY, but it does seem to be best value for money since its price drops, for size, features and range (although Tesla have bit generous with their claimed range).
Protractor on 29/09/2024 - 19:04

+1

Barnaby Joyce proving he's a troll. He would do anything to scuttle action on climate change. He is a greater threat to our security than China is.

https://www.news.com.au/national/politics/nationals-mp-barna…
- klaw81 on 29/09/2024 - 21:44
  
  Has he explained why it's only EVs he's worried about? Is he okay with ICE and hybrid vehicles from China?
  - Protractor on 30/09/2024 - 09:07
    
    -1
    
    Anything electronic from China would be a risk,if cars are.Individual car components in hundred's of non Chinese branded ICE cars,TVs,GPS ,security cameras.thousands if things. He did not say a thing about companies in Australia (including weapons) supplied by Israel, where the initial backbone of his madman mentally challenged dog whistling came from.
    
    Basically if childish dangerous (profanity) like Joyce force China to tear up the rug (stop providing us, or limiting trade) I bet they's outlast us.We'd be leaving in caves in a year. In short there's not too much on the planet these days that doesn't trace back to China, including a shedload of stuff in Joyce's life. His mouth has really crossed a line again, and will eventually cause harm to Australia or Australians.He can't blame his medication this time.Unless of course you call the piss he drinks as 'medication' .The beetroot has been well and truly overcooked this time. Notice Dutton did not kick his ass.The guy is unfit for office.
    - klaw81 on 30/09/2024 - 10:28
      
      Classic Barnaby Joyce, doing what he does best: fear-mongering with racist undertones. He's been doing this for more than a decade or more.
      
      The guy is unfit for office
      
      He hasn't been fit for office for a long time, but the people of New England somehow keep electing him and are strangely proud of his antics. And the Liberals are too scared to make a proper fuss about his behavior, lest their their own misdeeds are also exposed.
      - Protractor on 30/09/2024 - 10:49
        
        @klaw81: and as per his usual mouth breather modus operandi, he drops the grenade, and then tries to walk away. He's done a lot of damage this time, and today he's on MSM trying to walk back from what he said.I would say he was blind drunk munted again, choofing on an Alpine on his front verandah, guzzling some of politically donated 'free sample' wine. shooting off his drooling ~~face anus~~ mouth, and now trying to build an excuse around it. On national security alone, he has placed ppl at risk multiple times. He's bluffed both sides of govt for decades with his BS & bluster. Even his bully-boy outfit is from St Vinnies costume hire.
        
        I think the name of New England hints at his popularity.
        
        I'm pretty sure the car ban decision in the USA is more based on the democrats trying to out Trump,Trump before the election.
        Joyce is just using any opp to be a wrecking ball.

PHEV Vs EV: What Do I Need to Know and What Should I Buy?

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