How Do We Fix The Two-Tier Higher Education System?

How do we fix the two-tier higher education system?

Recently there have been many articles in the newspaper about illiterate students graduating from the Big G08 universities with poor skills. It is a sad state of affairs.

I can state from my own personal experience that there is definitely a big difference between the quality of an international student and that of a local student that has studied at the same university. Why that is the way it is very complex, and we probably need to discuss those underlying factors such as family upbringing, passion for their career, dedication to the community or country, and more. (Discuss below in comments please. I would like to know your opinion.)

This also flows into another discussion about whether migrant qualifications are the same because frankly they are not. If you have a Bachelors from some third world country, how is that equivalent to a bachelors in IT engineering or bachelors of computer science from UNSW -> Albeit I digress for one minute to clarify and state there is also a two-tier system for locally obtained qualifications which is the issue discussed in the paragraph directly above. The same issue arises with a bachelors in engineering, as we might use substantially different materials in Australian construction which would not be reflected in the topics covered in a Bachelors degree from a third world country. (Now, I hope I haven't offended any Poms who may also view themselves as migrants, but nevertheless what word can I use here instead? I added the word third world to assist, but maybe that doesn't quite capture the issue. Nevertheless, How can I be descriptive of the problem, but at the same time be politically correct. Let me know in the comments.)

There are two main issues to discuss here:

First is the fact that a migrant qualifications are not the same even though they have the same title name in their qualification. How do I put it simply? I am a CEO, but that does not mean I'm earning $30+ million advising the Qantas Board members.

Secondly, the qualifications obtained locally are not of the same standard because the Big G08 universities want to keep the revenue money making machine running and therefore the standards are much more loose. (Have you experienced this during your university studies, I definitely did. You probably did have that student that didn't have a clue but leeched off the group assignment marks. Or am I the odd multicultural fanatic and you guys just stuck with your own peers from high school; was I the only one to actually do group assignments with these international students? Let us know in the comments.)

As you can see from my background, you can probably tell I thought multiculturism worked, but now I can't say that anymore.

At best a lot of the Bachelors in IT from a third world (substitute politically correct word here) country are basically equivalent to TAFE Cert IV or III of IT. Something mentioned in this news article I saw recently involved an engineer. Now I don't have any experience in civil engineering, and I don't know what equivalent that would be in the TAFE system, but you probably could still get a job in the construction industry. Why most migrants choose not to do so is questionable. (Another topic you might want to discuss below, let us know.) Now you wouldn't exactly be able to walk onto the site and start constructing apartments in Sydney because frankly you probably don't know where to find the Australian standards or even know what they are, but you could be supervised as a labourer.

With 1 in 33 people in Australia being an international student. These ultimately flow on to some type of graduate visa and become permanent migrants. Then we ask ourselves what have we done, when these people could never have been productive in our society because they don't meet our standards in the areas that we have a skills shortage in as they require more training. Are we doing ourselves a disservice?

The other thorn employers have on their side are the societies that keep promoting the skills shortage, no one should fund these, cancel your yearly subscriptions. No more money to the ACS, no more money to Engineers Australia, no more money to your local group. I can take a local for the same amount we are probably spending on bringing in a migrant/international student because frankly let's not kid ourselves, they need just as much training.

Let's face it; this was never about a skills shortage, it was the members of these powerful lobby groups that just wanted the pipe dream of having high quality workers without having to train them. These lobby groups have infiltrated the political sphere. We should only have niche visas given out to those who have worked for the big Silicon Valley companies. That is what we need, if anything ACS should be promoting that.

Comment, maybe you are an employer who has also experienced such the two-tier education system. How do you propose that we deal with it?

Hopefully we can come together with some great ideas on how we can help Australia.

Most paragraphs are like a mini topic you can explore. (Brackets are a hint you can discuss that topic with the community). Hopefully that makes sense. It's long but you can cherry pick your own topic, or stick to the two main topics in the area below the part in bold.

Comments

  • +7

    Its too late!

    • +28

      ChatGPT missed instruction for brevity.

      • -3

        Oh man, missed this. I started reading from the comments starting from the bottom and going to the top.

        I should have used ChatGPT to assist!

    • +1

      OP should stand for election at the next Government election
      Then we can all vote for OP
      Then OP can get something done if they can get the support of one of the major parties plus a few independents

      • The ozbargain candidate.

  • +1

    INB4 the open borders types declare that OP was a victim of the two-tier education system…

  • +19

    I've skimmed your wall of text and am not entirely sure what you're banging on about. Has it got anything to do with engineers from overseas working as uber drivers?

    • -1

      Yep. I know a guy who practiced herbal/chinese medicine in China for 25 years. He brought a few taxi licenses, drives Uber/Didi (because why not both rideshare + taxi?) and does handyman work on the side. Didn't have the english skills for his 'qualifications' to be recognised in Australia.

      • +4

        Sounds like a productive Australian. What's the issue here?

        • It isn't a problem. Just saying, his tertiary education there isn't recognized her at all, so he's found something else to do which has no bearing on his work history. He does give some pretty amazing trigger point release and manual join manipulation.

    • +2

      AI is your friend here…

      1. Skill Gap: Local and international students at top Australian universities often have different skill levels.
      2. Degree Discrepancy: Qualifications from some countries may not align with Australian standards, creating a two-tier system.
      3. Educational Standards: Australian universities may lower standards to maintain revenue, affecting degree quality.
      4. Exaggerated Skills Shortage: The skills shortage is seen as a myth fueled by lobby groups wanting skilled workers without investing in training.
      5. Training Needs: International graduates often require additional training to meet Australian industry standards.

      Or if you're happy for a few more words:

      The text discusses the problems within the higher education system, particularly focusing on the disparity between the quality of education received by international and local students at major universities, and the implications for the job market and immigration policies.

      Key points include:

      1. Quality Discrepancies: There’s a noticeable difference in skill levels between international students and local students from the same university. This disparity is attributed to factors like family background, passion for the field, and dedication.

      2. Qualification Validity: Degrees from some countries may not match up to Australian standards due to differences in educational content. This creates a two-tier system where qualifications from less developed countries are perceived as lower quality compared to those from top Australian institutions.

      3. Local vs. International Education: The text argues that degrees from Australian universities, particularly the Group of Eight (G08) institutions, may be of varying quality due to relaxed standards aimed at maintaining revenue. This is contrasted with the need for higher standards in local qualifications versus those obtained abroad.

      4. Skills Shortage Myth: The text suggests that the perceived skills shortage is overstated and driven by powerful lobby groups seeking high-quality workers without wanting to invest in their training. It argues for a more selective immigration policy focused on hiring individuals from renowned global tech companies rather than broadly accepting international students.

      5. Employment and Training Issues: Many international graduates may not meet Australian industry standards and thus require additional training. This raises questions about the effectiveness and efficiency of the current immigration and educational systems.

      The text calls for discussion and input on how to address these issues, seeking solutions that could improve the higher education system and better align qualifications with industry needs.

  • +32

    I've been stuck with useless people in projects, through high school, uni and at work with local people. Useless people come in all shapes and sizes.

    I know in some Asian countries, learning is more memory based than actually understanding the nuances.

    • +13

      I'd have to agree.

      Some of my best and brightest workers have had no degree. Some of the worst have been locals who've done masters and very high level university training. Similarly I've had terrible foreigner workers, and absolutely brilliant ones as well.

      There may be a two-tier system in terms of stupid and not stupid people, but level of education itself and where they came from I've found is largely irrelevant to how well someone performs. It helps to get someone in the door but afterwards it's irrelevant.

      • +2

        It's a problem of having the right person doing the right job. The best and brightest in doing one thing doesn't always mean the same case in everything. Unfortunately our current economic and societal system is not that supportive in ensuring that each person can get the right job for them.
        And you still want the worst to still have jobs instead of just living on a dole.

      • +1

        I'm biased because I work in recruitment, but it's why a half decent recruitment team is important. They need to be more than just a filter for resumes, they need to be able to figure out if someone is an idiot or not, along with a cultural fit and such. A decent hiring process can really reduce turnover and improve performance. Once place I worked we hurt ourselves because we billed per hire, and we reduced turnover in the call centre dramatically, smashed our own revenue (client loved us though).

        Personally I give very little weight to CVs, university, etc. I do testing. Amazing how poorly some people do on basic analytics tests.

        Granted, there are also terrible recruitment teams who don't know how to find good people. That's a problem in itself.

        • Unfortunately recruitment is of a very low standard with AI scans of CV's for key words and phrases in CV's often backed up by short videos which are usually again AI scanned for key responses…..it is unlikely that a real , warm body will interact with candidates until after all of the above filtering. Hence fake it till you need to make it seems to be the way when dealing with the University of Life.

  • +16

    no TLDR, no deal
    .

    • Post from James is flabby.

      • -4

        Have to agree, took me 10 minutes to write it up.

        Should have used ChatGPT to assist, in hindsight.

  • +7

    I feel that OzBargain is definitely the appropriate forum from which to influence Australian higher education policy.

    • It's a bit like talking to your imaginary friend when there's no one who'll listen. Makes you feel like there was a difference.

    • Where would you suggest the public go to influence education policy?

  • +8

    How do we fix the two-tier higher education system?

    Which tier teaches students that often less words can convey more meaning?

    • -6

      Obviously, this has been picked up by others such as gromit below. Use ctrl+F to find it.

      I will repeat here. I don't have time to properly draft this as an assignment, but at the same time do you want me opening 10 different threads to get people to discuss what are tangential ideas that flow from one topic? No, that would stupid.

      Yes, I am reading through all of the comments. I am selectively responding though because the volume of content is massive. The discussion is overall excellent from the community.

      I do have a business to run… lol.

      Maybe I'll use chatGPT next time.

  • +2

    Brevity is the soul of wit.

  • +1

    I can tell you there are tiers in our universities, even within G8s.

    International students are pushed through due to overwhelming pressures from boards. Ive marked my fair share of 1st year UG essays and even a guaranteed entry ATAR is fair more sophisticated than an international student. Wrap it up however you like but these arent temporary exchanges, they are consuming spaces and resources that could be given to domestic students. I would rate their English skills at B1/2 level, certainly not the C1+ required for academics/professional outcomes.

    Which makes me question wtf is going on at the IELTS?

    The whole system is stuffed and domestic students need to make smarter choices.

    • "The whole system is stuffed and domestic students need to make smarter choices."

      Just wondering if you could expand on this a bit. What sort of smarter choices compared to what?

      • +1

        Couple of options that come to mind:

        • taking on more trades, free Tafe courses and upskilling over time to reduce HECS debt
        • enrolling in majority online courses that have lower fees structures
        • looking for paid traineeships, earn to learn programs that include degrees
        • being smart about their university selection and how much bang for buck they're getting - graduate outcomes should be a realistic conversation at the start, not the end. People always think Arts are a bad idea but actually, Arts aren't the problem. What is the problem is the notion of studying what you 'enjoy', being penalised for it (via HECS tier) and then reaping no tangible reward at the end. Classic example - Politics or History majors vs English or Linguistics.
        • asking openly about the number of international students in a course, what are the number limits in a tutorial and what are university policies on poor performance driven by poor language, attendance or group participation

        Too many domestic students simply pick the local uni and a degree they like and now, are being slugged $40k in debt and are not receiving an improved experience. Not saying university is bad, simply domestic students need to be more informed and wiser consumers. University in Australia is no longer aimed at them, yet they are the fodder feeding it.

        • -1

          I think you're thinking too deeply into it.

          Most of my time at university was spent pursuing personal passion projects, partying, spending quality time with my mates, and catching up with all of the various things I wanted to do through my teenage years (budget travelling, lots of driving around the country, music festivals…etc.).

          I also graduated with first class honours, and learned equally as much from managing a university club, to entering several international case competitions, winning one, and getting a great graduate job offer afterwards.

          I hardly went to any classes, I hardly care about the fees, about the "bang for buck", about what I actually studied. In the end, all of that was just ancillary, it was just a great experience and a genuinely fun way to spend a couple of years.

          FWIW, if your aim is to just "learn things", don't go to university, just go spend $500 on a couple of textbooks and work through the exercises. Like most things, the way university education is set up favours those who get out there and embrace the experience and make the most of the resources available.

  • +2

    Fix what? The universities are making a motza! That's what they have devolved into over the last 100 years or so. As long the money is rolling in they aint gonna change a thing.

  • Long term, we dilute the prestige and meaning in degrees from these Universities.
    My wifes recent experience doing an MBA: three people carried the working group. Some could barely converse in English. All passed.
    It may mot seem like it now, during the International student feeding frenzy, but eventually it will.

    • +1

      So an opposing view on prestige that I just heard last night, from a mate who is a uni professor. He said that with whatever the current NSW government has proposed (TBH I have no idea, I don't follow the news much, something about moving money from unis to home grants or similar, will impact foreign students) their funding is dropping significantly. In his case it means that two schools within a faculty may combine, diluting their individual agency, resources, and ultimately prestige (his word). The knock on effect is that they will be less desirable for both teachers and students. This guy is generally a considered Labor voter but he had nothing nice to say about them last night.

    • +1

      The University of Life will cull the non performers very quickly, especially at the Masters level, Having a certificate may get you past slack HR recruitment processes but if the candidate is not making the grade then the initial probation period should weed out the wheat from the chaff.

      • How do you weed out wheat from chaff? They're the same plant.

  • +2

    third world (substitute politically correct word here) country

    Your looking for developing nation.

    Third World actually describes countries that were neural during the cold war. It was never a designator of economic output.

    • +2

      I’ve seen this mentioned a few times in the last year or so.
      I agree the original academic intent may have been to define the Cold War spheres, but the only way the term “third world” was ever used was to describe developing countries.
      Nobody ever described Switzerland as part of the third world, except perhaps in some cloistered academic hall.
      The term third world wasn’t dropped because it was academically misused, but because people began to use it as a pejorative, so it was replaced by ‘global south’ and ‘developing world’.

  • +6

    I’m more interested in why there’s so many bachelors in IT? Surely there’s a partner out there for them

    • Whaa.. Bachelor in IT can get me hooked?

  • +4

    Local students don't care about the quality of their education either. The majority of them also don't care about what they are learning. They just want to the do bare minimum to pass so they can get the piece of paper that lets them apply for a job.

  • +2

    Let me guess, some international student / engineer broke your heart and now you're salty. I'd hire an international student / graduate any day, so the hard work I'm not willing to!

  • I am a CEO, but that does not mean I'm earning $30+ million advising the Qantas Board members.

    Unless you're the CEO of a consultancy, CEO's report to the board. They sure as hell don't advise the board. They update the board, answer to the board, get praised or their ass kicked by the board, etc.

    • They sure as hell don't advise the board.

      Of course CEO's provide recommendations and advice to the board.

  • +3

    Recently LOLZ, 20 years ago I met foreign uni students here who couldn't speak English, so I thought how the hell can they get a degree in English, pay to win for profit system, that's how.

  • +1

    There are unsuitable graduates of all types. I know one of our small group wasn't someone I'd have employed. Assessments are part of the problem - either exams which are passed with rote learning of facts, and group work where "no idea" students skate through mostly based on others work.

    Working at a Uni - which doesn't have that many international students - I see many who try really hard, and are great, that doesn't mean there aren't other who are further behind. So painting a wide "overseas student" brush is unfair. Almost all are under heavy pressure to succeed, sometimes studying in courses that others have selected for them.

    The Unis are operating in a system where successive governments for 30+ years have consistently reduced the commonwealth funding, and International students have been the lifeline, but also a bit of a sugar rush in many instances. Not sure how you solve for the problem of governments wanting more and more people tertiary trained (including some not suited to it) while reducing the total amount they want to contribute.

  • +7

    The ability to master the english language is not a reflection of intelligence or quality. I did a masters many years ago at Melb Uni and my cobort were mostly international. Sure my course work read better, and despite being in a really well paid job now, my career trajectory is incomparable to the 3-4 others that i got to know. One is a CFO for a large multi national back in her home country, another is a high flying partner with a big 4 in her home country. If your experience in working with people who were trained and educated mostly from overseas is bad, thats more likely to be a reflection of poor recruitment practices in your workplace. And lets face it, if you were to go to another country to find work, i doubt you would be able to find comparable work - such is the prejudice of most locals to foreigners in every country.

  • +7

    At best a lot of the Bachelors in IT from a third world (substitute politically correct word here) country are basically equivalent to TAFE Cert IV or III of IT

    I dont know where you are getting your information from. I have a tech bachelor from a third world country (albeit the top uni in my country and most of the students usually beat IVY league unis in global competitions).

    The education I got from two different top unis in Australia at the Masters levels felt basic to me. During my bachelors, I was building my own language models and doing AI in 2012 at my uni overseas when we all know it got really popular just in the last 2 years. A lot of the education here is research based and research is not equal to skill in the industry i.e. you might have a lot of knowledge, but do you have the wisdom to actually apply that in the field.

    People outside of Australia have to work A LOT harder to be able to build a life for themselves. Generally, life here is easy going and because of that there is less competition hence I believe we're churning out graduates the same way we churn credit cards here at Ozb (bad example).

    Therefore I dont agree with your statement. Apologies if I hurt anyones feelings.

    • +2

      Masters of IT in Australia are basic. They are the equivalent of 2 years of an undergraduate degree, however sometimes they have more contact hours and smaller classes to help students more. They will usually also pass students who would fail undergrad subjects. The real hurt from a lot of students is these masters students are then employed by the university to tutor undergraduates.

      They are a cash grab from uni targeting international students, or people with a degree of a different backgrounds.

      I don’t know your background but in India the difference between universities is vast. No doubt some of the universities are significantly better than Australian universities, how the majority are not. It’s hard for Australians to understand how vast the gap is in India.

  • -2

    Yes, multiculturalism is not working and has largely failed across the Western World. We have to stop kidding ourselves that it's working.

    One thing that could be done is to remove any postgraduate work rights. Universities are, essentially, selling Australian residence and eventual citizenship. They shouldn't be allowed to do this and will have a history fit if this was ever proposed but it needs to be done.

    Currently, it's a mess.

  • +5

    As you can see from my background, you can probably tell I thought multiculturism worked, but now I can't say that anymore.

    I'm not sure how your specific example shows that multiculturalism does not work. The reality is that there are people of different capabilities from all different cultures. I've met plenty of smart people from "other" cultures, and plenty of dumb people from my own.

    I think what you're describing has nothing to do with the cultures of the students, but rather that the entry requirements for local and international students are wildly different. This is primarily due to regulations on the number of CSP places for local students, but no such regulations for international students. This means universities can just push through international students of hugely varying levels of preparedness and capability. As an example, the top universities in Australia have lower entry requirements (for international students) than mid-to-low tier universities in China. Plenty of Chinese international students are here on their parents' dime because they simply could not make it into a university at home.

    The reality is that (in international terms), Australia is a third-rate destination for study. The best and brightest students are already going to the top US / UK universities.

    This isn't a failure of multiculturalism, just a failure of regulation on the higher education sector, profiteering and greed, and an underlying decision by Australian universities from moving away from their civic duty of educating young Australians to pushing through as many fee-paying international students as possible.

  • +10

    Way to long and disorganised, gave up half way through. Guessing you are one of those that did not do well at uni.

    • -6

      Of course, it's disorganised. I could have spent hours drafting it like an assignment, but this is social media.

      Furthermore, I have a business to run, so this is just me colloquially brainstorming a few ideas for discussion. Obviously that was lost along the way and you didn't read the TLDR at the bottom.

      • +5

        there was no TLDR, still isn't. honestly you don't need to spend hours drafting, 5 mins extra minutes cleaning it up would have been enough. Ironically you seem to be complaining about education yet your paragraphs and lack of cohesion, poorly thought out sweeping generalisations are exactly the sort of failings that uni should be fixing in peoples communication.

  • +1

    Upvote if you read through the whole lot… It's not getting my upvote

  • Hypothesis: Plot twist. OP is an international student themselves in the third person (not third world) that they seem to be incoherently rambling about.

    Method: Reading your OP and lack of any references except for "Something mentioned in this news article I saw recently involved an engineer"

    Analysis: It seems that you have had a cursory glance over some of the compulsory course readings. You have met the bare minimum tutorial attendance outside of the lectures and have clearly, hurriedly, cobbled together your essay at the eleventh hour. The fact that you need to provide a "How To" guide at the end of your post is testament to this.

    Results/Findings/Grade: Conceded Pass - and only if you pay your course fees up front! Otherwise, fail.

  • Looks like op’s going through an identity crisis :-/

    —-

    I think you are trying to look at a general problem found everywhere from a very specific angle that feeds your view or bias of what you think it is…

    End of the day, you need to understand what the industry expects from someone to perform at the job and as long as those requirements are met there is no difference…

  • +2

    It's been almost 18 yrs since I was at uni, early 2000's, anyways. Honestly it wasn't great back then with international students, especially doing computing, because IT degrees awarded more points that goes towards PR, that's what I heard at least.

    But man the most vivid memory I had was, major project, I got teamed up with 3 international students, who couldn't speak any english, and also 2 of them never showed up, never got back to me with meetings etc.

    I got so pissed off I went to the course coordinator and showed all the evidence. What did she say to me? Sorry you'll have to learnt to deal with this, it's reflective of the real world.

    I argued with her, ok that's a crock of shit, in the real world, if a colleague doesn't show up to work or know how to speak english they wouldn't even get the job, so terrible analogy.

    She didn't offer anything, no letting me do it solo and adjusting marking criteria, she only let me waive the drop out of the course and letting me defer it to the next semester.

    One thing that I never understand is, if the top Australian univerisites became reputable through genuine rankings, why would they go tarnishing it and spitting out terrible graduates. Once the market's flooded with these people who said they graduated from X university, and employers are like huh, I thought the produce more talented candidates, I'm sure this reputation will go down the drain.

  • +1

    By about 2-3 years on the field, no one cares about your degree anymore. So honestly, whether someone gets a job or not and how they progress in life is really more driven by their acquired skills both personal and professionally.

    PS: most jobs use very little from what you learn in higher education

  • +1

    Engineers Australia are a joke, they exist to serve themselves, not the engineering community.

    In Victoria, they pushed the government to mandate registration for engineers. Most of my engineering colleagues believe this is unnecessary red tape that addresses a problem that didn't exist, but hugely benefits Engineers Australia as they just happen to be the main registration body in the state

    In summary, engineers Australia have done a great job at establishing a money tap so it's easier said than done to stop supporting them.

  • +1

    sweeping generalization and wall of text is what I understood….Masters degree here is not worth the paper here as compared to Undergrad degrees in some top universities in "3rd world countries" - people here as I understand develop process based skills but cannot think outside the box unless they are smart which is only a minority irrespective of whether they started off as a migrant or not, studied here or outside etc.

  • My daughter went through Uni several years ago. They were forced to work in groups to complete a heavily weighted assignment. Her group of 6 included a central Asian student who had failed the subject the previous year. She totally railroaded the group and told them what they HAD to do because, “I’ve done this subject before!” (And f’n failed). I looked at the assignment and told my daughter that they were definitely going down a rabbit hole. The self-professed leader would not listen to any concerns and they ALL failed that assignment. Later in the year, the “leader” failed her placement and had to leave the course (she abused a patient). Letting semi-literate students (where ever they’re from) pass Uni courses doesn’t just harm the integrity of the Uni, it can also harm the other students.

    • I think that student had more than just literacy/language deficits by the sound of it.

  • Having worked at a Uni and speaking to the academic staff there, They tell me all the time that they are immensely pressured to pass international students, and if the failure rate is more than a miniscule amount then the academics are blamed and questioned on why more international students arent passing their unit. Its because the universities pretty much promote to the international community a guarantee of a degree as long as you pay. Sad that we have basically gone down what a lot of the other countries have done. I work in IT and some of the people we have hired from the asian continent who have all the "qualifications" from universities and in some cases more qualifications and higher qualifications than anyone else on the team and yet they have no clue on anything to do with IT and we had to teach them from the basics up.

  • +1

    OP just a snowflake. I did an Arts/Law degree at Melb Uni and all of the classes taught required advanced English and the international students who enrolled were up to scratch; if they weren't, they got found out. Try writing a law or politics essay without good English.

    If other degrees have lower requirements then blame the degree or the faculty.

    • Respectfully, you would have no idea. Arts/Law would not have this issue as you yourself point out

      Try writing a law or politics essay without good English.

      The students with issues are weeded out. They aren't weeded out of a STEM degree.

  • My first experience of uni was a regional uni. Very good experience, but just limited program. When I transferred to a metro uni I was struck by how low the bar was for writing ability. Even if this was due to the international students (less common at a regional uni), I had much less sympathy for the anglo/locals who wrote like years six kids. At least the international students were doing something incredibly hard and admirable (tertiary learning in a second language). But yeah some were totally cheating as well, but locals did that too.

    If I was doing a degree that didnt force me into the metro unis I would stick with regional unis. Much better teaching and standards. Usually more personal approach too.

  • Universities in Australia are also pioneering and forefront in medical studies and innovation in various fields. How is this possible? However for some of my friends who graduated in engineering had trouble looking for job in Victoria, most had to move to WA. International students may have poor English speaking skills but have you read their PhD thesis? This post is case by case basis it doesn't really paint the big picture.

  • Although a lot of the response is that local > international in terms of skill gap, the reverse can also be very true, especially in highly technical subjects. I've been in classes where the international cohort gets through engineering maths and aerodynamics without much issues whereas 90% of the local students including me were struggling hard to grasp the concepts.

    It's important to understand why we generally get international students is because of a lower academic barrier to entry, at the expense of a higher monetary cost to entry. So it is generally unlikely that we'll get the very top percentiles of academics. There probably needs to be an increase in entry standards for HE courses but one way the universities make their money is to churn through students who would never have made it through the course anyway. My 1st year professor looked at us in the first lecture and said "I'll see 10 of you at graduation" to a class of 100 and he was mostly right. The number of familiar faces I saw at graduation from my first year was 8, which meant the university at least made 1 years worth of fees for 90+ other students who never made it through the course.

    • +1

      The university would be much better off graduating those students. Those 90 students that didn't finish first year are missing forever, you can't fill second year places without first year students, and the costs of teaching 100 students aren't 10x the cost of teaching 10 students.

      You must have gone to one of the universities that isn't garbage. What did you study?

      • +1

        Aerospace engineering back in the early 2000s. The faculty really didn't care if people failed if they didn't meet the standards and from memory they only applied a grading curve to our results only twice in the entire program because the top score was a low 70

  • +1

    Why use few words when many will do…

  • +2

    If universities weren't reliant on overseas money to fund themselves, they'd have higher standards. Ergo, fund higher education instead of constantly stripping it back.

    Skills shortage - largely trades. Lack of qualified tradesman mean bringing in people from St Elsewhere who have trained to different standards. Problems with local cowboys too. Ergo, bring back the tech colleges ie, fund education better.

    Also if you bring back the tech colleges you can hand off responsibility to them to properly accredit international workers.

    Also if you fund tradesmen to be properly licensed like we do with healthcare workers, with a body that actually has teeth to suspend their licences, you will do away with a lot of the terrible performance.

    None of these are short term solutions but it would be nice if either side of politics cared enough to do any of this.

    The problem is when you prioritise business and profit above all else, you fail to recognise what investment in local communities has to offer. When your repeatedly fail to invest in health, you get the covid situation where the hospitals aren't equipped so we have to lock down, you get this big ridiculous balloon of spending to suddenly try and catch up on decades of stripping. You get skills shortages and lower quality workforce and far more expensive outcomes in the longer term. All for short term profit.

    Whichever political party:

    • funds universities appropriately
    • restarts trade schools/tech schools etc
    • establishes a licensing and accreditation body for trades
    • funds primary and public health care and leads us to a preventative model of healthcare rather than a hospital model so that when things like pandemics do happen, the population is health enough for it not to matter quite so much, and the hospitals wont be under threat of collapse so badly we have to lock down.
    • can create a robust and profitable recycling industry

    will get my vote. I couldn't care less what colour their stripes are these days. Australia should be a model for a high standard of living. You don't get that without a healthy and well educated populace, no matter their chosen career - whether that's a latte sipping gender studies socialist or a nurse, or a carpenter or concreter. And migrants wanting to do these jobs should be accredited to the same standards through clear and transparent pathways. We already do it with doctors and the hurdles are high - it should be the same for every industry.

    TLDR; the current situation is a result of underinvestment in education and health over decades. Cheap labour for short term profits ****s everything up and is exactly why the market should not decide.

  • Without naming the specific uni in Sydney that I graduated from:
    - Full of international students who are here solely for migration purpose
    - Have no interest in studies, let alone assignment. Teaming up with them effectively means you’re on your own
    - Quality of lecturers have fallen dramatically (I can only assume). Exam questions are effectively tutorial questions. Put simply, leaking exam questions during tutorials
    - Lecturers can’t even speak English. They end up teaching their own kind in Chinese. I feel so bad for the locals.
    - I also know some lecturers in person. Not only they have have no practical experience, their understanding of the academic content isn’t any better neither. Focusing on all sorts of office politics and have no interest in doing their job properly

    Full disclosure I was an international student but i was a nerd who took my studies seriously.

    • Go to the USA's top universities to get proper education.
      Go to any Australia's universities to get a ticket to live there.
      Different strategy.

  • +1

    I asked chatgpt if there was any underlying tone or bias in the original post. The reply:

    The post generalizes about international students and migrant qualifications, suggesting degrees from certain "third world" countries are inferior to those from Australia, which can perpetuate harmful stereotypes and a sense of cultural superiority. The language used, such as referring to some countries as "third world," and the implication that Australian standards are inherently better, risks fostering negative perceptions of migrants and international students.

    While the post raises concerns about educational standards and skills alignment, its framing and tone come across as exclusionary and prejudiced. A more constructive approach would focus on discussing how to bridge skill gaps through supportive policies and training, rather than generalizing or devaluing people based on their country of origin.

    On a personal note, from my perspective, the educational system is flawed and will remain so as long as we all remain human. If this is about work quality the main issue isn't education standards, it is that people can't be fired easily due to poor performance, whining in preference of working through issues and lack of ability or intelligence to navigate and pivot through uncertainty without significant hand holding. Make it easier to get rid of slackers and incompetence from the workplace and the education system becomes less of an issue.

  • +1

    I had a different experience back in Uni, though this was more than 10 years ago and in a technical-ish course (science/engineering/commerce subjects). Those that usually ace the assignments / exams / top of the cohort were majority international students (mostly East and South East Asians).

    They struggled slightly in subjects involving writing essays, report, or public presentation. But they excel in almost everything else, especially math, accounting, finance, physics, computing / programming.

    • I took a physics class and the tutorial was done by a girl with a thick Indian accent, she was speaking fast and Ic couldn't understand a word she said. So I dropped physics and changed to biology.

  • +1

    The fact that you think UNSW is the pinnacle of Higher education studies and degrees from 3rd world country doesn't match tells a lot about yourself than the degrees.

  • Reduce places, cap course fees to make it cheaper and increase rigour in selection for courses. Why cheaper? It makes it more attractive to genuinely intelligent and capable candidates, not just those they can afford it or willing to get into debt for it.

    For the workforce side of things
    - rigorous recruitment processes
    - commitment to workforce development
    - performance management and bonuses for strong performance
    No one learns everything they need to know for the workforce at uni

  • +1

    Most degrees could/should be half the length and half the cost (the length being the key part). We learn so many things that have no relevance just because a university (all of them worldwide) want to make more money.

  • There is a lot of academic disparity even between same courses offered between different Unis let alone within the Uni itself

    I remember 20 years ago comparing the courses of 2 different Unis in the Sydney region that offered the same course where Uni A spent a whole semester on a topic where Uni B only had 3 weeks to master it and had to learn more topics on top. Students that transfereed from Uni A to Uni B that regularaly got distinctions from Uni A all of a sudden were scraping bare passes in Uni B

    I can only imagine standards across the board have only dropped further since with the rise of the international students dollars as a backdoor to citizenship

  • +2

    What is with all the anti-immigration posts lately, bringing out every racist? I thought this was a bargain site, not 1930s Germany.

    Of course there are going to be low quality graduates, but you can bet a lot do come from local universities and colleges. Same goes for high quality candidates. Sure the socio-economic circumstances of the students and host country are going to come into play.

    Speaking of quality: Mein Rant above is an example of how not to write. Telling someone they can choose what to read AT THE END of said rant while complaining about the quality of people coming out of university is just mind blowing and shows a complete lack of self-awareness. OP probably has a good case for requesting a refund for his degree.

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