Second Hand EVs Seem Cheap! Anything to Look out for?

cannedhams on 05/07/2024 - 09:41

From Drive:-

https://www.drive.com.au/caradvice/used-electric-car-prices-…

"Electric cars between two and four years old held on to just 57.6 per cent of their value, while electric cars five years of age or older were worth less than 25 per cent of their original purchase price when resold."

Seems to check out. 2nd hand Hyundai Ionics going for about the 20K mark after four years:-

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/hyundai/ioniq/queensland-st…

Worthwhile as a second car wouldnt you say? Or is there a sting in the tail?

Automotive Electric Vehicle

Comments

    • ItsMeAgro on 06/07/2024 - 18:42
      +5

      It's one of those bizarre American left-right politics bubble things.

      Oil industry spent billions over the last few decades on propaganda about how EVs are poor quality or unsafe or expensive or all sorts of other lies/exaggerations/outright nonsense to try and trick people into buying fewer of them.

      The consumers of this propaganda (the same gullible dummies ranting about wokeness and left wing conspiraces and how a rich failed real estate mogul and reality TV star who is now a convicted felon is the best candidate for the US presidency) are still repeating it all over the place.

      • Euphemistic on 06/07/2024 - 21:03
        +2

        Then the media figured out that a particular type of story gets clicks which means ad revenue. Voila. Clickbait stories ablut EVs. Somehow anti-ev stories get lots of clicks and it becomes a spiral of uninformed people clicking on basically untrue stories amd more clicks makes more stories etc.

    • ssfps on 09/07/2024 - 02:13

      One reason - taxpayers are subsidizing the cost of EVs for middle class people?

      It's like the country folk that were/are angry at trucks after a bunch of rail got mothballed because trucks appear cheaper on the yearly budget. They don't intrinsically hate trucks, they hate the manipulation and knock on effects.

      I'm also bitter on EVs because I was looking forward to them for many years, and now that they're here, they're a mess of touch screens and forced updates. I would want them to save us from the incumbent ICE manufacturers DRM, not dial it up to 11. Again, not intrinsic to an electric drivetrain, but the concepts are entirely coupled across the industry.

  • LFO on 06/07/2024 - 10:36
    +5

    Battery degradation?
    More depreciation?

    If the price is right an under 50Km range could be just fine.

    How many people buy/own an almost not road worthy vehicle just to go to the train station return? To the suburban shops and back?

    A "cheap" vehicle has many many advantages when used accordingly.

    • Brick Tamland on 06/07/2024 - 10:43
      +2

      How many people buy/own an almost not road worthy vehicle just to go to the train station return?

      No one wants to take their nice car to the train station.

      • greatlamp on 06/07/2024 - 23:15
        +1

        The point is a 10k leaf is a lot nicer than a 1993 Toyota corolla

        • Brick Tamland on 07/07/2024 - 09:56

          To be fair a 1993 Corolla is what 20 years older?? Haha.

    • Euphemistic on 06/07/2024 - 11:50
      +2

      For context, the link is to a high km tesla. EV batteries dont degrade as much as your phone. They are lasting a lot longer than initially expected.

  • Herbse on 06/07/2024 - 11:08
    -2

    Yes, look out for boomer forums filled with people who will give you their opinions and not their advice on something they have any hands on or professional experience with.

    Try asking this question in dedicated pages where people who have done the same as you, and people who work in the industry are able to reply.

    You'll see a big difference to what's on here.

  • IoniqOwner on 06/07/2024 - 11:43
    +7

    As an ex ioniq owner, I can give some idea to you, I bought a second hand first generation ioniq 28kwh back in 2021. It was probably one of the best EV I have ever had for the value and ease of use. I can achieve realistically around 220 km range in city driving, highway probably around 180-190, very efficient averaging around 11kwh/100km, flat charging curve when using DC charging you can easily get around 50kwh rate until 88% capacity, so a quick 15 - 20 minutes stop is enough to fill up the car on a road trip. Battery health generally is okay with these first gen ioniq, as they have a active fan cooling. The battery in these cars are generally quite durable due to their chemistry, some user in Europe is reporting 8% loss after 200k km. The premium model is generally a more sought after trim with seat cooling/heating, heated steering wheels, etc.

    • LSGH on 06/07/2024 - 12:02
      +2

      thanks for the feedback, with this thread, I am now planning to purchase once they hit $20k… so far most I have seen are at $23k in QLD

    • mungicide on 08/07/2024 - 09:41
      -2

      I travel to and fro work per day for ~160-180km. Will this work? My current diesel last 1000km so should I have range anxiety?

    • cannedhams on 09/07/2024 - 10:26

      thanks for that, awesome info, I am really interested now in taking a chance on one of these things.

    • love2buy on 09/07/2024 - 16:21

      Was your insurance more than a typical ice car?

  • rickdwp on 06/07/2024 - 11:47
    +10

    For 1 Drive is just another trash FairFax rag, same toilet paper that compared the manufacturer claimed fuel eocnemy on a Ford Ranger to the real-world worst EV economy (Being a Jaguar I-Pace) to tell the world ICE cars are cheaper to run.

    Secondly, you need to look out for the same thing as a used ICE car with the exception of services history. Most if not all EVs have a battery health report and complete battery failures are no more common then Ford Rangers spinning bearings or any Diesel blowing it's HPFP and sending shrapnel into all your injectors also resulting in a 10k+ cost to fix.

    When talking used EVs all the bought and paid for muppets use the first gen Leaf as example why their bad. Which would be like using the Holden Cruze as an example why all ICE cars are bad. Except in most cases Leaf's still work they just have heavily reduced range because they have no thermal battery management. It'd be like if ICE cars had no thermostats, they'd die way sooner.

    As someone who has ALWAYs been into cars, having owned 50+ at this point I have no bias one way or another. I have a Tesla Model-Y, and multiple ICE cars. The flip on EVs is so bizarre, the fact this is ozBARGAIN and everyone gets…..mad? When EV prices drop - wtf? This is a good thing, My Tesla has probably dropped 20k since I got it - So what? I aint selling it and anyone buying a car that expects to retain value is an idiot with short AF memory (pre covid "Ya lose 25% when ya drive it off the lot" was just accepted facts)

    For you OP I wouldn't buy any ICE platform car that has been EV-a-fied like that Ioniq, they all kinda suck - if you want EV on a budget, Holden/Chevvy Volt is a quiet achiever it's a PHEV but they get over 50km battery and are cheaper then about any other PHEV

  • Ozbargainlyf on 06/07/2024 - 11:58
    +1

    Genuine question, the one thats done 93k kms going for $25k. Thats the cost of two PW2s.
    Why not use one of these as a part time car, V2L at home? 38kwh (degrading to what, 30kwh at worst?) battery compared to 13.5 in a tesla, assuming still 80% battery capacity.

    • netjock on 09/07/2024 - 10:38
      +1

      Reason they won't let you do V2H or V2G is they want to sell you a PW (or some other batter) and the power company wants to sell you more power. It is crazy state of things.

      Even $15k air cooled 1st gen left has 20kwh left in the battery that can be redeployed (unfortunately V2G/H was only implemented from Leaf Gen 2 onwards)

  • pulpfiction on 06/07/2024 - 13:03
    +1

    From what I’ve read the general consensus is the novated lease FB tax benefits are suppressing the used car market. Furthermore, the new EV discounting is further reducing prices.

    • netjock on 09/07/2024 - 10:41

      Just wait until they see the end of lease market. The whole novated leasing market is going to collapse.

      So they think a $60k Tesla is going to be resale $30k in 2 or 3 years and the prices keep on dropping. The novated lease company has to eat the loss. They probably charge a lot for financing the lease but it is like builders in 2020 signing up 2 years worth of work because the government is giving $25k grant per new house then material costs go up 30% if they could get it at all.

      Everyone is a genius with financial models until real life proves them wrong.

      • pulpfiction on 09/07/2024 - 11:41

        Possibly. The FB tax is due to return in 2026 by memory, so that will stop the excessive supply unless it's replaced by something just as stimulating.

        The current set up is pretty inequitable. I'm considering taking advantage of it, an in practice the end cost for a $75K EV comes to $35-40K once you account for the tax benefits. So this really benefits business owners the most when compared to employees doing a pure play novated lease (the biggest earners getting the most benefit… what else is new).

        • netjock on 09/07/2024 - 13:00

          a $75K EV comes to $35-40K once you account for the tax benefits

          This depends on how you look at it.

          After paying tax you can invest the money into shares which compounds over time. Especially if you can buy stocks with zero dividends like Meta (Facebook) at the right time. If the product is that good, the joke is to buy the shares not the product.

          In theory you pay less tax but the government just chase the people you paid it to in order to collect that tax.

          • pulpfiction on 09/07/2024 - 14:18

            @netjock: True on returns, however we need the car. The wife's car is worth a pinch below this, so we'd effectively be paying $10k in actual cash if we were to sell it and buy an EV. I've got zero chance of her downgrading (my car is 20 years old and her previous car was 25 years old - both reliable so keeping it this way would have been the best decision).

            • netjock on 09/07/2024 - 16:39
              +1

              @pulpfiction:

              my car is 20 years old and her previous car was 25 years old

              You've suffered enough.

              I bought a new corolla in 2021 and I consider it fully spent after 10 years, anything beyond that is pure profit.

  • j49w on 06/07/2024 - 13:58
    +26

    This mostly applies to Teslas (Model 3 mostly) specifically. Some of it may apply to other brands.

    • Try to find out how often the battery was super (aka "fast") charged (for Teslas, access service mode). A battery that was super charged a lot is more likely to fail (but still not very likely). A battery that was "trickle" charged at home using a simple 10A/240V outlet will live the longest due to having endured the least stresses on its chemistry.
    • Battery chemistry; LFP batteries will go on forever. NCA/NCM will too if they were taken care of properly.
    • NCA/NCM don't like being charged to 100% constantly and will degrade quicker. Tesla advises not to charge them over 80% for daily use for this reason. Occasional 100% is fine for long road trips.
    • LFP batteries are heavier (less energy dense).
    • Modern battery management systems (and thermal management sub systems) have been key to overcome early-EV battery degradation issues (common on Nissan Leaf etc.). Tesla has this down pat; like them or loathe them, their engineering achievements around this have been absolutely incredible (look up "octovalve").
    • up to 2020 Teslas have an interior with some piano black plastics that scratch easily. They also lack a powered tailgate. They still have resistive heaters (impacting range on cold days).
    • 2021 Teslas saw a big upgrade and (for Australian deliveries) started to be made in China. Build quality is generally considered better. This also saw introduction of a new interior, and powered tail gate. Matrix headlights were introduced as well.
    • For Teslas interior/trim rattles and very common across all model years <= 2023. Avoid Tesla if they bother you. A premium interior it is not.
    • Mechanically there is very little that can go wrong on EVs in general. Beyond that, all the usual parts (suspension etc.) require inspection for wear & tear.
    • EVs don't use their brakes much (due to regenerative braking). Don't be cheesed off by squeaks etc. during hard-braking due to break pads being rusty, if taking one for a test drive. Similarly, drum brakes (generally and - probably - rightfully poo-pooed for ICE vehicles) are making a comeback (Volkswagen). They make sense on EVs.
    • The sweetspot for a used Tesla is 2022 or later. This is when most kinks had been ironed out, the faster Ryzen processor was introduced for the infotainment system, the 12V lead-acid battery (yes - these needed to be replaced every 3 years too, just like in an ICE!) was replaced by a Li-Ion battery that does not need replacement. It also saw some improvements to the blinker cameras. I personally prefer this generation of Model 3s over the newer "cost-cut" version without the stalks and ultra sonic sensors.
    • Kerb rash is common on some Teslas.
    • Battery degradation is the worst in the first 1-2 years of the car being new. It then leaves you with 90%-85% capacity left that slowly (extremely slowly) tapers off with age/use. More than other automakers, Tesla leaves a healthy "reserve" margin to account for this (and also allows you to drive past 0% for a good while if you're in a pinch, but there are no guarantees - precisely because it's a reserve capacity).
    • If you're worried about the condition of the battery (which realistically, you shouldn't despite all the FUD) do not go by the range or state-of-charge (%) displayed. It is a calibrated estimate that says very little about the actual health of the battery. There are different ways for different manufacturers to get a true estimate of battery health - if you are at all worried about this.
    • Teslas and other EVs are popular in the Nordic countries and of course the US, but some of the issues they experience or hear about are simply not applicable (things like cold weather charging, road salt corrosion of some parts, etc.)
    • Many EVs tend to chew through tyres quicker than ICEs due to increased weight (though, say, a Model 3 is no heavier than a Mercedes C-class).
    • Depending on which state you live, you may (or will) be slugged with an extra tax-per-KM as part of your rego.
    • Budget for a charging solution. That said, for most people a 10A/240V "trickle" charger ($500 - $700) is more than enough to top up the battery overnight for a "full tank" in the morning.
    • Shop around for insurance to get an idea of what you're up for, and compare it to an ICE vehicle. You will sadly find the EV may be a fair bit higher, but some insurers are a lot more EV friendly (I've seen quotes that were almost 2x higher) than others. This changes each year for some reason.
    • Decide if V2L (vehicle-to-load) is important to you. Some EVs just don't do this (e.g. none of the Teslas do this).
    • If you are at all considering a Tesla, the upgrades you get regularly - even on older cars - have absolutely made the cars better and more feature-rich over the years, and continue to do so. There are not many manufacturers that do this.
    • TL;DR FSD is not worth it in Australia, Enhance Auto Pilot may be. Some dealers may try to screw you. If you are considering a Tesla, "Enhanced Auto Pilot" or "Full Self Driving" (which incorporates all the features of Enhance Auto Pilot") is sometimes pre-paid and present, without dealers knowing or properly appreciating the value. Note that a car having the "Full Self Driving" computer (they all do at this point) is not the same as having the "Full Self Driving" package installed. Sometimes dealers confuse the two and try to tell you it has the $10K FSD package installed when it isn't. Enhance Autopilot brings some useful features and is potentially worth the premium. FSD is currently not worth the premium, until "Autosteer on city streets" aka "Supervised Full Self Driving" becomes available here in Australia. This is currently available in the US & Canada and what it bring is pretty mind blowing, IMHO making good on some of the "Full Self Driving" name. ETA is at least one to two years out, but maybe longer.

    IMHO this is not a terrible time to pounce on a used EV. In the last 3 years or so, the fat has been cut, production processes have matured, and the battery tech now used will - on average - already outlast a comparable ICE car's engine / useful service life. I personally probably wouldn't go older than 3 years, but it all depends which of these things are important to you.

    Hope any of this helps.

    • changyang1230 on 06/07/2024 - 22:57
      +4

      Excellent write up!

      On the “extra tax-per-KM”, I thought no state is doing that since Victorian government was struck down by its high court?

      • j49w on 06/07/2024 - 23:23

        Thank you! You're absolutely right re:tax right now, but there had been speculation about Victoria introducing some other mechanism instead (though admittedly I haven't heard anything recently). The Federal Government is also obviously increasingly missing out on a fair chunk of fuel excise, and something will have to give. Rego may also change (I'm holding out for a fairer weight-based pay-per-KM system). We'll see…

        • ChickenAdobo on 07/07/2024 - 15:32

          It will become like ACT to slug the dirty utes and 4x4. They can afford it going by the Land Cruiser pricing.

    • SitarBoy on 08/07/2024 - 20:27
      +2

      Excellent well considered unbiased round up. So many people fall into believing the FUD about EVs. Its so hard to understand why people actively justify spending $100+ on fuel every week or so. Big oil companies really did a good job with their propaganda!

      • j49w on 08/07/2024 - 23:53
        +1

        I totally get people's (past) apprehensions. Even with all the future promised savings/benefits/etc., not everyone has >$65K to blow on a "luxury" car that is hard to "fill up" and is based on "new" technology that seems to be in flux.

        We're definitely now getting to the end of that initial "newness" phase. Prices are coming down, infrastructure is rolling out rapidly, the kinks have been ironed out technology-wise.

        I don't blame people for having sat on the fence, and I don't think it's all been one big conspiracy either. People had legitimate concerns/reasons to not jump on the EV bandwagon. Even today, there's heaps of good, rational reasons to skip EVs for the time being.

        That said, there's plenty of FUD and BS going around for sure (there's heaps in this very thread), but - as they say - you can fool only some people some of the time for so long. Eventually most people will absolutely figure out that an EV (new or used) will work better for them too for their particular situation.

        Fortunately that's already been happening in a big, unstoppable way - even in Australia. Some countries are half way there (China, Netherlands, Sweden), some countries have already completed this process (Norway).

        • SitarBoy on 09/07/2024 - 00:17

          Yeah agreed, EVs are not the solution for everyone but a vast majority of people they can easily be a very good option. I cannot fathom why people defend spending money on fuel just because these cars are EVs.

          EVs are definitely at a much better price now then they were even a couple years ago. A Model Y has soo much technology and features for 60k. It has many cars beat for value.

    • ass3ts on 09/07/2024 - 06:10

      Just to add a quick note after owning 3 Performance Model S Teslas in the past decade, from around mid-2020 onwards, they also deleted the normal driving options to adjust the strength of the regenerative braking (Low and Standard, not the Creep and Roll Stopping Modes which they also got rid of with the updated models). I presume this was done to support their range claims (by forcing customers to drive the car the way they want). As far as I know Tesla is the only EV manufacturer that does not provide these options, many others even assigned them to the paddle shifters behind the steering wheel for easier access. Strong regenerative braking feels similar to driving a manual car in 1st or 2nd gear when you quickly let off the accelerator.

  • altitudinous on 06/07/2024 - 14:54

    Probably come from the e-waste bin down the local council or from those officeworks drop off points.

  • runamuck on 06/07/2024 - 16:00
    +1

    Find out how much it cost to replace the battery.

    • Euphemistic on 06/07/2024 - 16:23
      +4

      Thats all well and good, but at 2% failure rate do you also find out the replacement cost of a petrol motor or transmission before buying? There is probably similar chance of them failing.

      • gromit on 07/07/2024 - 15:25
        +1

        To be fair yes I do, hence why I avoid old VW's with DSG.

        • hothed on 07/07/2024 - 20:11

          I had a bearing fail in a manual transmission. $15k for a new manual gearbox.

        • OzHan on 07/07/2024 - 22:55

          I avoid VW altogether.

      • tessel on 07/07/2024 - 21:07
        -1

        Motor or transmission is not going to cost you the same price as a battery. Plus, batteries can be difficult to determine the health. Yes, there are ways to do it but honestly at the high prices for used EVs it's better to buy new.

    • SitarBoy on 08/07/2024 - 20:31
      +1

      A Model 3 battery replacement in recent quotes was $13k. Given that you have an 8 year warranty (on new cars), you would have spent more on servicing, repairs, and fuel in that same amount of time on an ICE vehicle.

      Failure rate as mentioned is also very low, and with more and more EVs being on the road, second hand car parts become more accessible and cheaper!

      My friends X5 engine decided to conk out. $20k to replace with a USED engine not even new with warranty.

  • OzzyOzbourne on 06/07/2024 - 20:50
    +3

    The battery

  • tessel on 07/07/2024 - 20:58

    They aren't cheap. The Hyundai's I've seen were out of course to end of battery warranty. Yes, it's unlikely the battery still have a problem but prices for used EVs are too high to run that risk. Yes, you can get lemon ice cars but as long as you do your homework and check them out before buying I think that's a lot less risk than a possible $20k+ battery in an EV that has limited eats to check it's health. I'd love a used EV but I can't justify the high cost and potential risk of having to replace the battery. Might as well just buy a new EV.

  • HunterBargainHunter on 07/07/2024 - 22:57
    +2

    This thread gave me hope for some ev deals until I ran to carsales and found none.
    Unless in a bad financial situation or upgrading, looks like ev owners hold on to their evs rather than dump them into the market therefore supply is low and prices are still relatively high

    • vtml on 08/07/2024 - 09:20
      +2

      This is correct. I will be holding onto my Tesla for many years to come due to the super low maintenance cost (almost $0 to charge and no schedule servicing), which is not my usual practise previously. I used to tried my best to get a demo car (budget friendly) from a dealership, and sell with 6 - 12 months warranty left, then repeat. With FSD running in the same hardware that I have in Northern America, there is still so much features that are not made available but the hardware is already there.

  • surg3on on 08/07/2024 - 10:13

    The first gen IONIQ range was a bit low. If you are fine with that you'll love it. I have the hybrid version. Very comfy car.

    My wife has a BYD. I wouldn't personally go below ~450 range but thats due to where my parents live (up a bloody mountain).

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