Engineered Stone Banned in Australia

Kkuba on 14/12/2023 - 08:16
Last edited 14/12/2023 - 12:55 by 1 other user

So, the latest news is that engineered stone has been banned in Australia, as of next year.

Very sad for the workers, I really feel for them. But, it's not made clear in the article why the stone is dangerous, even with appropriate PPE. But it is what it is.

So we renovated the kitchen in our previous home and used this product, and it was absolutely stunning, just beautiful.
We have just bought a new place and it will require renovation. So I may need to find an alternative. Laminate: not an option, as I understand undermount sink does not work with laminate.

Timber: Not sure about undermount sink in this case. And how is hygiene? Timber chopping boards are out in our household, and they can be easily replaced every 6 months. Yes, you're not chopping on the bench top, but 10 years of use is a long time. Just looking at our dining table after 10 years, and that gets used no where near as much use as the bench top.

Natural stone: I think this stains very easily, and cost prohibitive.

Porcelain: looking online they seem to have a similar appearance to engineered stone. More expensive, but hard to find details on cost.

Stainless steel: I don't want my house looking like a prison or a commercial kitchen.

Any other ideas?

EDIT: And what are you experiences with them?

Home & Garden Engineered Stone

Comments

    • Kkuba on 14/12/2023 - 08:46
      +1

      Yes, I listed some of these in my post.

      What are the costs associated with each one relative to one another, and what are your experiences with them? (I have edited my post to make this more clear)

  • ihfree on 14/12/2023 - 08:51

    But, it's not made clear in the article why the stone is dangerous, even with appropriate PPE. But it is what it is.

    Exposure can lead to cancer -

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/oct/27/tony-…

    • Kkuba on 14/12/2023 - 09:03
      +2

      Sorry, I should have been more clear.

      I understand that silica dust is dangerous to your health. What I don't understand is how silica dust can be harmful if appropriate PPE is worn.

      • jellykingdom on 14/12/2023 - 10:08
        +5

        That's because it isn't, not with correct PPE. Otherwise the people who work in the (Australian) factories that produce the product would be dying in their thousands

        It isn't like this industry is the only one with dust

      • richadam on 14/12/2023 - 10:26
        +10

        Silica dust is very small and gets everywhere. Tools, clothes, cars, homes. And there's no level of exposure that's considered "safe".

        Engineered stone is 95% silica, so any work done to it will cause silica dust that, even with wet cutting will still get everywhere. No real PPE can protect against that amount effectively.

        Natural stone still has silica, but it's content is around 40% and can be more managed by popper PPE. Still not great, but it's a lot better than engineered stone.

        • Kkuba on 14/12/2023 - 10:39

          Thanks for the explanation.

          So I guess, by the numbers, it would take about 2.5 times the exposure to natural stone cutting, to equate to that of engineered stone cutting?

          That is a substantial difference.

          • richadam on 14/12/2023 - 10:40
            +4

            @Kkuba: Doesn't work like that.

            Firefighters can control and extinguish a house that's 40% on fire compared to a house that's 95% on fire.

          • gromit on 15/12/2023 - 11:02
            +1

            @Kkuba: From a Article/research I was listening to the other day apparently there are multiple issues with the engineered stone.

            1) the Silca dust produced is of an extremely fine nature making it a more severe irritant and harder to avoid. Natural stone generates larger particles (still an irritant for your lungs just a little less so)
            2) even the low silca engineered stone (less than 40% is still an issue)
            3) A secondary problem is the metals and chemicals used to colour engineered stone, these are vapourised during cutting and create gases that increase the health issues.

        • Ugly on 14/12/2023 - 10:45
          +2

          Engineered stone is up to 97% silica, but
          Natural sandstone can be up to 95% silica.

          https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/safety-topic/hazards/cr…

          • richadam on 14/12/2023 - 10:48
            +2

            @Ugly: And the other natural stones are less than 50%…

        • infinite on 14/12/2023 - 23:22
          +1

          Almost the entirety of all natural stones are a minimum of 75% silica, with pretty much the one exception of Limestone.

          The exceptions to the rule though are just as dangerous if not more though, as Limestone and shale are mixed with glass and other deadly fibers that make them equally as hazardous to work with when handling, cutting & installing.

          The one thing that negates that though is following the proper safety guidelines and wearing appropriate PPE. If you do that, you are going to be perfectly safe. There's over half a million people in Australia working with these products on a daily basis (and there has been for well over two decades now), yet there's only a touch over 700 people a year getting diagnosed with the lung condition (in total) they claim is caused by the mishandling of the product. Only a portion of those numbers are tradies or those who work anywhere near the product in any shape or form. If the product was problematic when used with PPE and utilising safety guidelines, you'd be seeing numbers like 10,000 a year coming down with the lung condition.

        • Chandler on 15/12/2023 - 14:47
          +1

          So why do we still use plasterboard? Is gypsum really any better?

        • SlickMick on 15/12/2023 - 16:02

          So if they could make manufactured stone with 40% silica we could all calm down?

          • mroarsome on 16/12/2023 - 21:27
            +1

            @SlickMick: They already do. Ceasterstone launched low silica options in 2022.

            • SlickMick on 16/12/2023 - 21:49

              @mroarsome: yeah I know, they all do. it was a leading question ;)

      • infinite on 14/12/2023 - 23:12
        +6

        It's not a danger at all if simple PPE is used.

        The problem is not with the product, it's with the shambolic tradies refusing to do anything but half-ass the process of working with the product and not using safety guidelines or PPE to work/cut/install it.

        But rather than do what the manufacturers, wholesalers and fabricators have been advising for 10 years now (make tradies get licensed in how to safely use and work with the product, then have inspectors do random spot checks to ensure the standards are being followed) - they are simply just banning the product. Despite bricks, cement, concrete, stone & most other building materials being high percent silica based as well & no basic safety or PPE standards are used by tradies working with any of those materials either………

  • barge-in hunter on 14/12/2023 - 08:54
    +2

    My understanding is that the dust is very dangerous; as it contains micro-particles of silicon. The risk they're seeing is that this could result in a very similar illness as asbestos dust - the particles are so small they embed themselves in your lungs.

    Like asbestos though, it's fine until it's cut/ground… but when that happens,more than basic PPE is required - full hazmat suit style, just like when asbestos is professionally removed during a renovation/demolition.

    • Kkuba on 14/12/2023 - 09:02

      Wet cutting does not prevent the dust from becoming airborne?

      • barge-in hunter on 14/12/2023 - 09:07
        +6

        Demolition for reno/fitting with exposed edges/accidental breaks/chip or grind damage when in the home

        And we don't know how stable these products will be in 50 years, because they haven't been around that long. They could simply disintegrate.

        It's not a perfect world, where you can control how these products will be treated when out in the wild. This is a risk mitigation move because so many people have died because of similar products (Asbestos).

        • Chandler on 15/12/2023 - 14:54
          +1

          I think you hit the nail on the head here.

          Yes, we have processes and guidelines for using/handling engineered stone. But the industry isn't even managing to follow them properly, so how can the government expect the end users (or someone hired by them) to follow the processes/guidelines for using/maintaining the engineered stone products? How does the end user (or someone hired by them) know that the benchtops/whatever are made of engineered stone?

          Hence the government is banning it.

  • Dollar General on 14/12/2023 - 08:58
    +17

    Ban engineered stone but smoking is legal.

    Mistake the industry made is not being taxed on each bench top sold.

    • p1 ama on 14/12/2023 - 20:26
      +10

      Ban engineered stone but smoking is legal.

      Whilst I share your sentiments that there is definitely an element of taxation of tobacco (not to mention the lobbying power of big tobacco in general) at play.

      However, these are two pretty distinct issues. Tobacco (and a whole bunch of other things) are primarily harmful to the end payer and user. In that regard, I do believe that governments should not be in the business of "protecting people from themselves".

      Engineered stone is different - those affected are not the ones who are purchasing and using the product. As such, it is government's role to "correct" that externality, whether it be through a tax to cover the costs incurred to those who end up suffering from silicosis, or as a ban.

      TL;DR, those who smoke choose to based on the benefits and harms of smoking. Those working in engineered stone factories are often underpaid, are working in unsafe conditions, you could even say are being exploited, and are getting sick for a product that other consumers use.

      • furyou on 14/12/2023 - 21:03
        +2

        Tobacco has huge costs to society as a whole.

        • p1 ama on 14/12/2023 - 23:36
          +2

          But they'll pay for them to chop their genitals off

          You clearly spend too much time thinking about childrens' parts. Can you show me an example of a child (so under 18 years) having (legally) "chopped their genitals off" through the medical system?

          • infinite on 15/12/2023 - 08:32
            -3

            @p1 ama: It was already 250 victims a year all the way back in 2018 that were starting on the chemical castration drugs and being referred in for surgeries:

            https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-20/childhood-demand-for-…

            • p1 ama on 15/12/2023 - 09:47
              +3

              @infinite: Did you even read the article?

              The public hospital does not offer gender-reassignment surgery.

              "Bottom surgery" — that is, anything below the waist — is not recommended for children and teenagers because of its effect on sexual and reproductive function, according to Associate Professor Telfer.

              So the medical profession specifically does not allow children to "chop their genitals off".

              But hey, can't expect someone posting "free bible" deals to be hugely concerned with the truth now ;)

            • Jolakot on 15/12/2023 - 11:59

              @infinite: You're completely full of it, the government has never paid a cent towards those surguries as they're all considered cosmetic.

              At best they'll put a pittance towards the anetheologist fees, but you're still looking at around $35k in surgeon fees alone for the bare minimum.

              Most of the people on those drugs wished they were chemical castration, you still need contraception.

              If you want to be mad about the government paying people to chop the genitals off of kids, then go advocate against circumcision.

    • Ughhh on 15/12/2023 - 06:30
      +2

      You'd find that smoking in the work area/office is illegal.

      It's employers duty to control risk on work site.

      • Dollar General on 15/12/2023 - 07:13

        The sale of cigarettes is not banned though is my point.

        Smoking causes more deaths and illnesses than engineered stone. They should both be banned

        • SpainKing on 15/12/2023 - 11:46

          What about cars and knives?

          • SlickMick on 15/12/2023 - 16:05

            @SpainKing: I would say we should rank them: ban alcohol and tobacco first, then focus on the next biggest problem. It will be a while before we get to manufactured stone, long after cars and knives I suspect.

        • Ughhh on 16/12/2023 - 17:22

          One group is exposed to the hazard by no choice of their own (unless they resign).
          The other is more of a lifestyle and willingly exposes themselves to the hazard.

          • Dollar General on 16/12/2023 - 21:07
            +2

            @Ughhh: Passive smoking kills too

            • Ughhh on 17/12/2023 - 08:38

              @Dollar General: Yes, which is why smoking is banned in doors at work and public areas like shopping centers and entrances. Your boss isn't forcing you to inhale the second smoke at work right?

          • SlickMick on 16/12/2023 - 22:21
            +1

            @Ughhh: I think somewhere along the line stone fabricators probably got an inkling as to what was involved in that career and had the choice whether to proceed.
            Or are you suggesting that this is a slave labour industry and they are forced to work against their will?

            Consider the people breathing coal dust or sustaining sports injuries, 2 examples off the top of my head. Why aren't contact sports banned - we know the risks.

            I decided to lookup what prompted these feeble minds to decide on a ban. Safe Work Australia identified the following risky work activities:
            * Using power tools to cut, grind or polish natural and engineered stone countertops
            * excavation, earth moving and drilling plant operations
            * clay and stone processing machine operations
            * paving and surfacing
            * mining, quarrying and mineral ore treating processes
            * road construction and tunnelling
            * construction labouring and demolition
            * brick, concrete or stone cutting; especially using dry methods
            * abrasive blasting (blasting agent must not contain greater than 1 per cent of crystalline silica)
            * foundry casting
            * angle grinding, jack hammering and chiselling of concrete or masonry
            * hydraulic fracturing of gas and oil wells
            * pottery making
            * crushing, loading, hauling and dumping of rock, and
            * clean-up activities such as sweeping

            I assume they're banning them all? No?
            hmm so nearly every industry apparently can work safely with silica dust, but there is no possible way the manufactured stone industry could, so it needs to be banned. hmm.

            • SlickMick on 16/12/2023 - 22:25

              @SlickMick: ps. I know many fabricators say no to sintered stone because it's hard to work with. I'm sure they could learn to work with sintered stone and shun quartz stone if they wanted to.

            • Ughhh on 17/12/2023 - 08:51

              @SlickMick:

              probably got an inkling as to what was involved in that career and had the choice whether to proceed.

              So the workers knew they were probably gonna get silicosis and it's their fault for choosing that? That reasoning will never work with the regulator.

              Or are you suggesting that this is a slave labour industry and they are forced to work against their will?

              Reread this again: https://www.ozbargain.com.au/comment/14730095/redir

              I had a brief look before and I think this is something the union has been pushing for many years. They're probably only targeting one industry at a time and/or only have their fingers dipped in this industry. They probably wouldn't dare touch mining to the same extent.

              • SlickMick on 17/12/2023 - 16:47

                @Ughhh: "fault" is is strange word to use. Is it my fault I have RSI? Should computers have been banned because I should have known going it it was probably going to happen? I think they should have passed laws that we get a 10 minute break every hour. Or I can resign if a company doesn't look after me, and get a job with a better company.

                Like you said later, they pick on soft targets that don't affect their revenue.

                Reread this again

                Still says the same thing. Not that I agree that resigning is the only alternative to wiping out the entire industry. Though resigning is an effective way of refusing to work under conditions you don't feel are safe.

                something the union has been pushing for many years

                Yeah I don't get why the union wants to wipe out their worker's industry. I'm sure I'm missing what is actually happening here. A big pay out that stone fabricators are all going to retire?? So stone fabricators don't want to fabricate stone anymore?? But they don't want to resign and get a job elsewhere?? Do they want the entire market to transform around their current jobs? So we'll go to the stone fabricator and buy something else?
                I don't see any winners here.

  • p1 ama on 14/12/2023 - 09:17
    +8

    But, it's not made clear in the article why the stone is dangerous, even with appropriate PPE.

    OP - your post just reeks of dismissal and ignorance. You've literally linked one random news article and expected that it tells you why engineered stone is dangerous? You really couldn't do your own research or Google it?

    But it is what it is.

    Yes, so it's completely acceptable for people to die from silicosis just because you want nice looking benchtops? Even if you genuinely don't care about the peasants, perhaps your cheap engineered stone benchtop won't be so cheap after all when your tax dollars end up going towards treatment of silicosis in public hospitals.

    We have just bought a new place and it will require renovation. So I may need to find an alternative.

    FWIW, the alternatives are the same options that we've had for decades. Before engineered stone, the rich used marble and other natural stones (as they are expensive, and require you to look after them), the rest of us used laminate. Don't get the hate for laminate, my house was built in the 70s, still has its original laminate kitchen benchtops, they look and function perfectly fine.

    Do they look as nice as engineered stone? Obviously not. Does production of laminate benchtops lead to silicosis and lung cancer? Also no.

    • Stewardo on 14/12/2023 - 09:31

      Have you read the safety data sheet on laminate, moisture resistant particle board or contact adhesive?

    • Kkuba on 14/12/2023 - 10:11

      You are right, I do not understand it. But not through lack of trying. I have researched this previously. I did want to know alternatives and people experiences, but also just to start a conversation about it.

      In the past this may not have been known, and workers would not have known to wear PPE, and it is terrible that the way that it was discovered was through people getting sick. I genuinely feel bad for them, it would be so scary to be in their shoes, and feel so helpless.

      Yes, so it's completely acceptable for people to die from silicosis just because you want nice looking benchtops?

      This is what I don't understand (and have not been able to find any info on previously). Now that the dangers are known, and the proper controls can be put in place, is this still the case? And if yes, why is that?

      • Stewardo on 14/12/2023 - 11:15
        +12

        Most building materials have an element of danger when machining them. The dangers are well known and stated on the literature the manufacturers supply.
        The alternatives to manufactured stone will all give you cancer if machined without the correct PPE.
        I’ve been in construction for years and speaking very generally many tradespeople weren’t high achievers at school, especially the more physical trades, they often are very hard working and strong but have a dislike for authority or educated professionals, very hard to enforce the rules if they are working onsite by themselves. Many of these guys throw themselves into their work with little regard for their own safety. They will often be paid well and end up working for themselves at some point, which makes them employers who have a duty to enforce safety.

        It’s a failure at many levels that these employees got sick, authorities and employers not enforcing ppe strongly enough also employees not following the correct procedures.
        It’s a good thing that they have banned it because if it saves one life it’s worth it. It’s interesting that they would ban this but not cigarettes. Not as much tax revenue on benchtops.

        • Protractor on 14/12/2023 - 12:28
          +1

          Nailed it

          • SlickMick on 15/12/2023 - 16:08

            @Protractor: All except

            It’s a good thing that they have banned it because if it saves one life it’s worth it.

            It contradicts everything else stated e.g.

            It’s interesting that they would ban this but not cigarettes

      • p1 ama on 14/12/2023 - 11:20
        +3

        This is what I don't understand (and have not been able to find any info on previously). Now that the dangers are known, and the proper controls can be put in place, is this still the case? And if yes, why is that?

        The particle size of silica dust is incredibly dangerous. It is small enough that it is very difficult to effectively control. It's not a matter of wearing a dust mask, it requires direct active extraction (over the areas where the engineered stone is being cut), direct water delivery to the area (to minimise the generation of dust), and full scale PPE (think hazmat suits) because the dust can settle anywhere and become airborne later on.

        Then there are the flow-on risks after production, e.g. during installation, demolition, and what to do with them after they've reached their useful end of life.

        For materials where there is no viable alternative, sometimes you have to put up with the risk. For materials where there are sufficient alternatives (e.g. engineered stone or asbestos), it makes most sense to use those instead.

    • infinite on 14/12/2023 - 23:35

      Does production of laminate benchtops lead to silicosis and lung cancer? Also no.

      Wut?

      Formaldehyde is just one component in laminate that absolutely leads to fatal respiratory issues, sever asthma and causing certain cancers if safety procedures are not followed and PPE not utilised - along with other products used to cut, seal & install it.

  • Kail on 14/12/2023 - 09:27
    +1

    Solid Surface (Corian, Staron etc) is a promising looking alternative.
    Aside from that, I'm not sure what I would use.

    • tebbybabes on 14/12/2023 - 23:11
      +1

      Ooooh, I remember this from a few decades ago. It was quite popular in California and the builds and reno back then. From memory, it looked very nice. I can't say that it looked AS nice as engineered stone, but now that you mentioned it and reminded me, I feel it was a close second.

      This is just my personal recollection. I can only compare Corian, engineered stone, tile, marble, laminate and concrete as they're the only ones I've had personal experience with.

    • Navanod66 on 15/12/2023 - 11:20

      Looks nice, but not being heat and chemical resistant in a kitchen setting is a rather big disadvantage

  • Loot N Plunder on 14/12/2023 - 09:35
    +1

    Any other ideas?

    tiled, raw concrete/polished, resin, natural stone (granite, marble), terrazzo, bamboo

  • saltypete on 14/12/2023 - 09:37
    +1

    Natural stone is a high percentage silica but I guess millions of years of geological processes make it react differently to cutting.
    Never a fan of engineered stone in any case, much prefer real stone if I go that way. I think having a product in my kitchen that has contributed to someone’s incurable disease would not give me any joy….

    • infinite on 14/12/2023 - 23:42

      All forms of natural stone are exactly as dangerous if mishandled, as engineered stone is. Instead of silica, your just inhaling glass fibers and other potentially hazardous materials. Almost all natural stone is within 10% as much silica as engineered stone is.

      Most building materials are mostly silica based. Bricks, concrete, etc….. They are all equally as hazardous to work with if mishandled, but the government simply just hasn't targeted them because they aren't viewed as luxury items & are also heavily taxed.

      • saltypete on 15/12/2023 - 10:22

        Yes, most rocks on earth are composed mainly of silicate materials and it follows that pretty well all building materials have lots of it.
        I don’t think the workplace health folk who deal with the industry give a ‘rats’ about tax structures or anything else when they talk about workers health, so there is clearly a difference in how they can be safely worked within the industry.
        I guess I’ll find out next time I opt for a stone bench top….

  • FoxJump on 14/12/2023 - 09:41
    +1

    Wife would kill me if i suggest a 3D printed benchtop

    But we also have a reno and now need a new type of benchtop
    ditto my thoughts for timber and laminate, and real stone is too expensive.

    so what similar priced options are there? Given the ban just happened, looks like most kitchen benchtop people havent really updated their websites. So i hope something updates soon

    I think concrete is the winner so far, esp if it can be coloured. We didnt need fancy patterns

    • Kail on 14/12/2023 - 10:13
      +1

      I didn't know coloured concrete was a thing, that's interesting.
      It looks more expensive than granite though, and it's porous too which isn't great.

      • FoxJump on 14/12/2023 - 10:51
        +1

        doh

    • miwahni on 14/12/2023 - 23:56

      Ban comes into place next July so you have a small window of opportunity.

    • SpainKing on 15/12/2023 - 11:53

      Everyone in the thread I've seen that could deal with the appearance of stainless steel seems to love it. It's what I'd opt for given the choice due to its heat safe nature, durability and ease of cleaning

      • Lichen6420 on 15/12/2023 - 12:30
        +1

        The problem with stainless (if you don't mind the look of it) it scratches very easily. Not really a concern in a commercial kitchen because hygiene comes before aesthetics, it a home it will look pretty crap after a couple of years.

  • brendanm on 14/12/2023 - 09:43

    It's because of silicosis.

    People didn't use respirators when they should have, so now an entire product is being banned, and a tonne of people will lose their jobs, congratulations government.

    • AustriaBargain on 14/12/2023 - 09:47
      +3

      A tonne of people is only like 10 men.

      • brendanm on 14/12/2023 - 11:54

        Wow, only ten people in the entire country work on and install those, interesting.

        • brbgrcgukdhreuin on 14/12/2023 - 19:10
          +5

          You're the one who asserted that only 1000kg of people will lose their jobs.

          It's unusual unit of measurement, and I'm grateful for AustriaBargain's rough conversion into something more relatable.

    • nedski on 14/12/2023 - 10:38
      +7

      Oh nooooo, we should let people continue to die so they have jobs they can die in and people can have fancy benchtops.

      /s

      • brendanm on 14/12/2023 - 11:53
        +1

        They could simply use the appropriate ppe.

        • imnotgoingtopayrrp on 14/12/2023 - 19:23
          +3

          Some of the practices like dry cutting and making alterations in the field can see workers being potentially exposed to levels of RCS that some of the best PPE can't protect from.

          • SlickMick on 15/12/2023 - 11:07
            +1

            @imnotgoingtopayrrp: So ban those things, but let's not through the baby out with the bathwater.

          • Protractor on 15/12/2023 - 16:44

            @imnotgoingtopayrrp: Also,
            There will be residual risk remaining that can be disturbed later.I doubt any workplace environment associated with manufacture and install,modify,DIY would see ppl wear PPE all day , every day to avoid that risk potential. It isn't a once only risk factor if the product silica was exposed at a site. Banning makes sense. We can find safer alternatives. Don't forget this stuff was driven by trends, not 'necessity'.

      • DrScavenger on 14/12/2023 - 23:08

        Aren't people just gonna import them now?

  • DGrayson82 on 14/12/2023 - 09:48
    +1

    Maybe a stonemason can chime in here but why cant they just use a CNC machine or equivalent to cut the stone?

    • George Washington on 14/12/2023 - 10:10
      +3

      That is what they are trying to do, but the problem is handing the wet/dry dust mix once the CNC machine is done with it. Nothing is dust proof unless its done in a sealed medical Lab.

      I visited a commercial shop that does engineered stone foreclosure they have CNC machines but all over the place is the dust. We were told to wear P2 Masks with disposable gowns.

      • saltypete on 15/12/2023 - 10:26

        I’m intrigued about the difference between engineered and natural stone then. Both are high in silicates and both are a dust hazard when cut. I keep looking but all of the press reports are quite vague.

    • DashCam AKA Rolts on 14/12/2023 - 10:11
      +1

      I was thinking along the same lines.

    • Stewardo on 14/12/2023 - 11:20
      +3

      A lot of the final cuts are done onsite without the correct PPE ventilation dust ebatement etc. the dust is very fine and lingers.

    • imnotgoingtopayrrp on 14/12/2023 - 19:26
      +2

      100% A well-maintained and serviced CNC machine can eliminate the risk. However, there were still significant numbers of businesses in NSW, QLD and VIC that did not comply with the legislated controls. It's a shame for the businesses that did invest large sums of money to now have the product banned.

      • SlickMick on 15/12/2023 - 11:09
        +1

        Honestly. Go after those that aren't working safely, even increase requirements for the products and/ or the processes. But a total ban is an overreaction.

        What gets me is they're been working on a solution to this. I have no idea why we've jumped the gun.

        • Ghost47 on 16/12/2023 - 18:47

          I have no idea why we've jumped the gun.

          Simply put they don't seem to trust the sector to do the right thing. On pages 56-57 of the report it states the following:

          In fact, permitting work with lower silica engineered stone may encourage even greater noncompliance with WHS laws as there may be an incorrect perception that these products are ‘safer’.

          Knowing what the building industry is like that makes total sense.

          We might as well build houses using play-doh, but eventually that would probably be banned too because tradies would end up eating the stuff. Maybe we should go back to mud huts. Oh wait tradies will think it's chocolate and eat it.

  • Odin on 14/12/2023 - 10:29
    +4

    Dumb and embarrassing.

    Once again we ban things because Australians are too stupid to look after themselves.

    They know they can cut it in factories with robots safely away from people. The only reason for the ban is because dumb asses will still cut it on site without water and without masks.

    There's no real good alternatives. Feel bad for people with bad kitchens. Guess they'll never remodeling. Hell, even new builds this is gonna suck

    • nedski on 14/12/2023 - 10:38
      +12

      I know right!

      BRING BACK ASBESTOS YOU BIG NANNY STATE GOVERNMENT!

      /s

      • Odin on 14/12/2023 - 10:43
        +7

        Everyone is comparing to asbestos but it's totally different.

        Asbestos can become dangerous very easily with a homeowner doing normal maintenance. Or hell, just accidentally hitting it cleaning gutters or something.

        Stone is hard to turn to silica dust.

        Silly comparison

      • infinite on 14/12/2023 - 23:53

        Asbestos just deteriorates and falls out of the product it's baked in too, in house/building materials. It's obvious why it's dangerous.

        On the other hand though, in order for silica to pose any risk to a homeowner or renter at all - they'd need to take to the bench top with a commercial sledgehammer, go looking for dust elements that fractured out of it, gather it all up in a pile & then snort lines of it like they were Hunter Biden.

        For people who work with the manufacturing/cutting/etc - they are only at risk if they intentionally ignore basic safety protocols & don't wear an appropriate mask.

        • bargaino on 15/12/2023 - 01:12

          I think you have it backwards. There is no evidence for asbestos cement in the home being dangerous in practise. Just the loose insulation type.
          People are not grinding it up. It was the miners and factory workers who died.
          Silica dust is the opposite. It is being handled correctly in factories, but causing illness from tradies in the home. And the scale is far, far smaller than the asbestos deaths.

          I shake my head when I see tradies tossing old asbestos sheets. Don't do this, but the risk is really very small, compared to cutting engineered stone without full PPE, or to the asbestos workers of old, who were covered in clouds of the raw fibres.

          • infinite on 15/12/2023 - 08:36
            -1

            @bargaino:

            Silica dust is the opposite. It is being handled correctly in factories, but causing illness from tradies in the home.

            Yes, because the problem is caused 100% by tradies ignoring the very basic safety protocols and then refusing to wear PPE on top of that.

            There's zero problem with the product at all, it's 100% an issue of moron tradies choosing to do the wrong thing. Almost every building and fabrication material in the world is equally as dangerous if mishandled and safety protocols are ignored. Bricks, glass and concrete are all equally as dangerous if mishandled the same way and their dust inhaled.

          • SlickMick on 15/12/2023 - 10:24

            @bargaino: I don't think it should to be cut in homes, it is supposed to be cut by fabricators in factories, where they should have all the safety processes in place.

            I'd have no issues with increasing the safety requirements, but the industry should be left to determine how they meet those requirements - whether by reducing silica content (already happening) or improved processes. Maybe small shops would fold and only those that can afford automated cutting would survive. But to simply ban the product is just ignorant.

            • Protractor on 15/12/2023 - 16:50

              @SlickMick: The lived experience with asbestos, alone, justifies the ban based on the impact toll so far, and in a relatively short time span.

              Sometimes you can have safety rules till your head spins, but enforcing and complying don't always align. Look at the avoidable deaths still occurring on mine sites ( and farms to a lesser degree) . The rules,PPE etc on mines are almost stifling, and yet?.
              One thing I will agree with you on is why one thing, and not another. Cement and coal dust? Where's the CFMMEU on these issues? Banking the brown paper bags? Looking away? Not concerned (why not)

              • SlickMick on 17/12/2023 - 17:01

                @Protractor: With asbestos, they didn't ban a particular finished product, they banned a material that turned out to be a really bad way of making those products.
                I think one company was particularly focused on using that material and got hit hard, everyone else just continued on with safer materials.

                They came up with what they considered "too much quartz" (40%), so the manufacturers voluntarily started making 10% and 40% quartz products.
                Now logically they would have to ban natural stone before engineered stone with 10% quartz, but nope they haven't let logic get in the way of this one.

    • Protractor on 14/12/2023 - 10:39
      +2

      and the cowboy DIY fwits modifying in the future, where residual dust waits disturbance. Just like mesothelioma, there's future and flow on effects. You are right about the stupidity of WILLING morons, but this rates with asbestos, and takes no prisoners. Brickies,granos and labourers in dusty environments will still fly under the RADAR with silica issues. Watch a brickies labourer load a mixer on a windy day, sometime. No PPE within a mile. Or people cutting,grinding concrete,fibreboard etc.

    • pizzip on 14/12/2023 - 18:17
      +2

      There's no real good alternatives. Feel bad for people with bad kitchens. Guess they'll never remodeling. Hell, even new builds this is gonna suck

      What did people do before engineered stone existed?

      • Minimum chips on 14/12/2023 - 19:25
        +6

        You just placed your dishes where the bench should be, but because nothing was there they fell on the ground and broke! It was a nightmare.

  • Protractor on 14/12/2023 - 10:36

    Trends cost lives.

  • jason101 on 14/12/2023 - 11:06

    Sintered stone will be hitting the market en-mass shortly. https://www.bhg.com/what-is-sintered-stone-7485855 - In my day job we are currently re-selecting for around 1,000 homes under construction currently. Supply arrives in Oz from many suppliers in January - this move has been brewing for a few months and suppliers/manufacturers realized the writing was on the wall some time ago.

    • Kkuba on 14/12/2023 - 11:09
      -1

      This looks great!

      Looks like a very viable alternative.

      They quote a per square metre cost. But I don't have context, do you know how that compares to engineered stone?

      • jason101 on 14/12/2023 - 11:13
        +1

        We've reviewed it in house and think its actually a superior product (so we wondered why it was never offered to us as a large commercial client as an alternate before) - It is slightly dearer per slab to buy and the recommended fabricator cutting speed is slightly slower than typical engineered stone, so fabrication costs may also be slightly higher.

      • SlickMick on 15/12/2023 - 10:32

        Many fabricators don't want to work with it. It's difficult to work with: it requires specialist tools for cutting, and it's fragile.

        We're using it because there are better patterns available (in our opinion).

        But if it escapes the ban, I guess fabricators will need to learn to work with it or find another trade.

        • Lichen6420 on 15/12/2023 - 12:59

          Article says it prone to chipping and cracking during install. I wonder how durable it will be for in home use?

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