So, I was chatting it up with someone at the Tesla Dealership about getting a pre-loved Tesla X.
They mentioned that the simplified design of a Tesla is one of its advantages, as it reduces the possibility of automotive components malfunctioning. As a result, this lowers the likelihood of costly repairs and maintenance.
I can't help but wonder, though, was there some/any truth to their smooth talk?
This sucks.
If a battery isn't sealed properly, the manufactorer should replace it free of charge and offer the owner an apology.
I agree…. but anything to get out of a 30k repair… although it was probably $1500 to tesla for new battery
@pharkurnell: im sure there will be retro fit battery restorations around 5 years down the line which would make it very affordable, they do it to hybrid batteries these days.
im sure there will be
Buying on a pray and hope. Good luck. Look at how much effort it took for Apple to acknowledge they were throttling batteries and stopping 3rd party repairs.
@pharkurnell: It'd be far more than $1500. It's not 30k but there's around 8k battery cells and the price for those wholesale is aroudn $2 each.
I recall something unusual with Tesla "options" that are only applicable of the original first owner and removed when sold.
Sorry very faint memories of the issue.
It was in the USA market.
So tesla are suggesting that the vehicle was submerged, possible due to extreme weather.
Wouldn't it be an insurance claim then?
@Penican: I think the thought is that they drive through a very deep water crossing thinking their Tesla was invincible
Something isn't right there. Seems like a manufacturing/design deficiency and not fit for the conditions.
This report is clickbait. Tesla has been selling cars worldwide for years now, and we're to believe that not one of them has been subjected to rainy conditions, and that this is the first one to be driven in rain and due to a "design flaw" the battery perished? It's a heck of a stretch.
It's much more likely that in this case, the couple were driving their car through deep floodwater, a stupid move for anyone to do. There was a viral Tik Tok trend for Teslas doing just this in the UK for a while. But instead of owning up to doing something stupid and dangerous with their expensive car, they whinge to the local rag that it's all Tesla's fault. riiiiight.
Peeking Behind Tesla’s Cost of Materials Curtain
Based on the estimates in that article Tesla's internal cost for manufacturing would be about $7300 for the standard range model 3 battery and $9500 for the long range battery. There would also be a labour cost to replace the battery and since it's the UK 20% VAT on top.
There are inventory and supply chain costs associated with any spare parts, but that markup is still ridiculous. No wonder those things are so expensive to insure.
@trongy: VAT wouldn’t apply if the battery was replaced by the manufacturer under warranty.
https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/vat-supply-and-cons…
@ChickenTalon: Pay attention. The entire point of the news article was that the manufacturer refused to replace the battery under warranty. If the battery had been replaced by the manufacturer under warranty we would not be mentioned in this thread.
Unless the battery fails.
Just ignore the 8 year battery warranty…. But sure, the chances of this happening are about the same as an ICE car having a total engine failure……. and no one worries about that.
The honest truth is most cars even ICE cars, rarely see much over 200k before being scrapped for one reason or another. People are going to scream but my car has 856k KMs on it… Ok the key words are 'most' cars…. Yours isn't one of them.
what model is this immortal car?
My brother once had a ex-taxi EA Falcon that had over 1 million KMs on it.
@AdosHouse: I went in an AU taxi once, driver claimed that car never had major engine work but three automatic transmissions. It was on 650,000km
.
@Nugs: I owned a EB Series 2 Falcon once upon a time, had the 4.0L inline 6. Damn thing was indestrucable. I used to flog it when I got a better car, like holding 1st gear until redline, and dumb crap like that, it had zero F's to give, just kept chugging on. At one point it sat on the front lawn for nearly 2 years without being started, some neighbour approached me and asked if he could buy it off me, I told him if he can take it he can have it. Guy walked back to his place, grabbed a battery, chucked it in, chucked some petrol in, and the car started without any hesitation, fired up with only about half a second of cranking. Damn that car was immortal.
what model is this immortal car?
Pretty much anything you see driving around as a taxi….
Used to be the Ford Falcon in the day, these days its the Camry Hybrid!
@JimmyF: yeah in recent times just about every taxi I've seen in Sydney has been a Camry Hybrid
yet today - omigord I actually saw a Camry without a Hybrid badge ! Dunno if the badge had fallen off, but I was feeling it for that poor guy - customers: "Wait, what !? Your car isn't silent and vibration-free when stopped at traffic lights !?!? Ugh - cancel my ride !"
Like one Uber I got - the guy was trying to make money and had a nice model but it was like 7yo with a diesel engine - he told me that sitting in that rattling noise vibration box for many hours was tiring and he was looking for another line of work.
All those poor people who don't have new cars - it's terrible I tells ya … !
camry
People are going to scream but my car has 856k KMs on it…
I scream respect.
ice cream
Many people do sell their car when it gives them trouble or the odometer gets high. They don't necessarily come off the road though, they get resold to the people who can't afford a newer car. Our first two cars were bought with 180-200k on the clock. Both made it to 300k. Not everyone has been poor enough to participate in that part of the market, and thinks those cars get scrapped instantly.
But you're right that most cars only make it that far, as accident/flood/hail damage kill easily as many as mechanical failure.
I reckon the most expensive part of a used car is the shiny paint.
I've bought cars with reconditioned engines and crappy paint for a few hundred dollars when shiny paint would have added $Thousands to the price I'd have to pay.
So as I once told a colleague asking for advice buying a used car - buy the cheapest car your ego can afford - if your ego needs an expensive shiny car to feel OK about yourself, knock yourself out - put yourself in debt for the next X years. If your ego doesn't need that, you can buy a perfectly reliable vehicle for a fraction of the shiny price - and that's money in the bank folks.
the chances of this happening are about the same as an ICE car having a total engine failure
There has been decades of work went into perfecting ICE technology, so in comparison, ICE vehicles with the likes of Toyota, Mazda etc. could have a lesser chance of failure than EVs.
There has been decades of work went into perfecting ICE technology, so in comparison, ICE vehicles with the likes of Toyota, Mazda etc. could have a lesser chance of failure than EVs.
Yeah I think ICE cars are absolutely fine when new. The problems start when the cars get older. Leaking engines, sluggish and leaking transmissions, broken water pumps, corroded radiators, faulty sensors, flattened seals, cracked reservoirs, various other engine components that need replacing, more leaking fluids…and this is on top of the scheduled servicing that's required.
Some people sell their ICEs car before they hit 100,000km to avoid having to deal with all those issues. Everyone's just gotten used to it.
We have had electric motors for over a hundred years in vehicles and machinery too. It is very transferable and innately simpler and easier to maintain.
However, a Tesla isn't excatly a brand know for reliability. A electric Honda or Volvo will certainly outlive a ICE equivalent of the de brand.
You're forgetting about Landcruisers.
and the rest of the electrical system (and all electronics) which NO ONE has a clue how to fix
I heard there was no second hand market for Teslas.
Nobody wants to trade them in.
There are quite a few for sale on Marketplace.
This doesn't sound right at all. Model X isn't even available in Australia, what kid of dodgy second hand overseas model are you getting with no support here? It's certainly not a second hand Australian Model X.
What are you banging on about? There's currently 88 used model X's for sale on carsales.
Tesla have only just recently stopped selling the X in Australia. My understanding is that all Teslas will now come from China for the Aussie market and the X is exclusively made in the USA.
There are quite a few Model X's on the road in Melbourne, so…
I'd say overall the engine of an EV will be much more reliable than an ICE, especially a European one.
However, suspension of an EV etc are also subject to wear and tear like an ICE.
Battery life as the car gets older isn't that big of an issue as I thought. They last longer than expected.
It's not like a 15yo ICE is as efficient/economical as it was when new.
Disclosure- I still have no plans to buy an EV.. however, as ICE cars have jumped in price and EVs have dropped, the premium for EV means that they are getting very attractive as a run around car, especially if you can buy it on a novated lease.
It's not like a 15yo ICE is as efficient/economical as it was when new.
This is the thing most 'haters' overlook, they have some fantasy view that ICE cars live forever without needing any servicing or degradation of performance etc over time.
They also love to claim the range is shorter than advised too, but overlook that most ICE cars fail to get the fuel economy on the window sticker either and just 'accept' this is how things are that if it says 8l/100km you'll be getting 10l/100kms, which is 25% more fuel, aka less range from the ICE than claimed.
They also love to claim the range is shorter than advised too, but overlook that most ICE cars fail to get the fuel economy on the window sticker either and just 'accept' this is how things are that if it says 8l/100km you'll be getting 10l/100kms, which is 25% more fuel, aka less range from the ICE than claimed.
Entirely different ballpark, and your argument is pretty disingenuous. When people discuss EV range, they aren't primarily concerned with fuel economy, they are concerned with wait times while traveling and the difficulties of being stranded. It drastically reduces the utility of the vehicle. When an ICE becomes less fuel efficient, you can stick a jerry can in the boot and have more range than when new. If you run out of fuel, you can get a mate to bring a can of fuel and you're on your way.
Entirely different ballpark, and your argument is pretty disingenuous
LOL No it is not, It is the same thing. A battery holds so many kwh, a fuel tank holds so many litres of fuel.
Range is claimed 'usage per 100kms' / capacity available.
So when the fuel usage l/100km sticker isn't true, range is reduced.
they are concerned with wait times while traveling and the difficulties of being stranded
LOL No you are concerned about that. Go ask any EV driver about those fast charging stops they take…. For me, by the time I stop, plug in, have a toilet break, its time to move on again as the car is charged ready to go.
It's hard to be stranded in either an EV or ICE these days. They let you know. So just like an ICE car if you do run out, its 100% your fault.
When an ICE becomes less fuel efficient, you can stick a jerry can in the boot and have more range than when new
hahahaha sure thing.
@JimmyF: You smoking crack or something? Are you actually suggesting you can recharge your EV and get another 400km in the 4 minutes it takes somebody to empty 2 20L cans into their tank?
You smoking crack or something?
Not at all, but I can read which you didn't seem to do.
Are you actually suggesting you can recharge your EV and get another 400km in the 4 minutes it takes somebody to empty 2 20L cans into their tank?
LOL That isn't what I said….
But yeah in about 20 mins, I can add 300-340kms at a super charger. So as I said, I park, I plug in, I have a toilet break, its just about time to go. Find something to eat and its well and truly time to go. (Tesla claims up to 275km added in 15 mins).
So no 'loss' of my time as such and in 300kms of driving, I'm ready for another stop anyhow, so works in great!
Again you buy what you want, no one is stopping you having an ICE. But you seem to be trying to stop people buying an EV with your FUD.
@JimmyF: So I can see the EV haters have arrived….. Rather than just negging, how about you just be happy and drive whatever car you want to drive. No one is making you drive a EV. You can drive your ICE car, you can buy a new ICE car. No one cares but you haters.
No one cares but you haters.
I can definitely tell that you are a rational adult trying to engage in a good-faith argument.
I can definitely tell that you are a rational adult trying to engage in a good-faith argument.
LOL unlike all the FUD believers who comment here that don't know a single thing about EVs other than what they read online or heard at the 'pub'…..
LOL No it is not, It is the same thing.
Good job missing the context entirely. Yeah, you're right, fuel efficiency is fuel efficiency, congrats on arguing a tautology smugly. Now you can move past that and see the reason for discussing fuel efficiency is entirely different.
LOL No you are concerned about that.
Range anxiety is a major concern for many people, again with the disingenuous bullshit.
Good job missing the context entirely. Yeah, you're right, fuel efficiency is fuel efficiency, congrats on arguing a tautology smugly. Now you can move past that and see the reason for discussing fuel efficiency is entirely different.
efficiency is efficiency, that is correct. ICE stickers are never right and cars always get much less range than the sticker claims. But do we have uproars about that? No… But an EV gets 20km less than 'claimed' on the window sticker and its EV are crap with their range issues.
Range anxiety is a major concern for many people, again with the disingenuous bullshit.
Again that is a your issue not mine, I have no range anxiety. You might have been reading too much FUD on the internet.
@JimmyF: Range anxiety has been force fed to us for so long by the EV naysayers that people think they need 1000km on a charge. Most EV owners will tell you range anxiety isn’t really a thing. You plan to charge just like you plan to fill up with petrol.
ManyEV owners will take a 10-20min comfort stop on a long trip when they feel like it and charge because they can rather than go from full to empty every time. Couple of reasons for this. EVs charge fastest between 10-80% plus you can go do other stuff like get lunch while your car charges rather than make a special stop for fuel then need to take extra time to eat/toilet after fueling.
One big difference is that most EV owners start every single day with a full tank, unlike when you hop in your car late for work and realise you’ve forgotten to fill up last night on the way home.
Range anxiety has been force fed to us for so long by the EV naysayers that people think they need 1000km on a charge. Most EV owners will tell you range anxiety isn’t really a thing. You plan to charge just like you plan to fill up with petrol.
Correct, sure some new EV owners might have some range anxiety, but that is only because they read all the FUD about it on the internet. Give them a few weeks of ownership and it's gone. Most cars will plan the charging stops for you if you use the built in nav. So it is a no brainer or use 3rd party charging based apps if you want to use a different network of chargers.
ManyEV owners will take a 10-20min comfort stop on a long trip when they feel like it and charge because they can rather than go from full to empty every time. Couple of reasons for this. EVs charge fastest between 10-80% plus you can go do other stuff like get lunch while your car charges rather than make a special stop for fuel then need to take extra time to eat/toilet after fueling.
Correct, as I said above, generally at a fast charging stop, by the time I go to the toilet, get coffee/food the car is ready to go. I'm not sitting around for 'hours' waiting like people think. I can get a real 400+kms of range when I leave home on a full charge, I'm well and truly ready for a break before the car is 'flat', so I plan my stops at a charging stop and we're good to go again.
I did a 3k road trip recently in the countryside too of all the places. I picked places to stay that had charging, so I left each day with a full battery and the times I did stop to charge, it was around lunch time or snack time. So plugged the car in to charge vs parking an ICE and went and got food.
One big difference is that most EV owners start every single day with a full tank, unlike when you hop in your car late for work and realise you’ve forgotten to fill up last night on the way home.
Correct, unless they forget to plug it in ;)
But even then, most EVs have good ranges that most people can get to work and back a few times without needing to charge, so that isn't an issue either.
@JimmyF: Of course there’s outliers that just won’t be able to make an EV work for them. but for the majority of drivers an EV will work well with a little adjustment.
@JimmyF: I've driven my Performance Teslas to various ski resorts in NSW and Victoria for the past 7-8 years, I have to say sometimes it's not as simple as you suggest. It does take more time to reach destinations compared to ICE cars. When I don't feel like being dictated by my car when/where to stop, to park and even where to stay; I'd take my ICE cars. Also, have you stopped at those rural superchargers after hours sometimes in the middle of nowhere? There's nothing to do, even the toilets are closed/not available, and I encountered the same experience while driving to/from ski resorts in Europe too.
@ass3ts: Exactly. Instead of planning my trip, I 'd have to plan when and where and for how long I stop according to the whim of the vehicle. Never going to happen.
@SlickMick: Clearly never travelled in the outback then….. You do have to plan around when and where you stop according to the whim of the vehicle.
But sure great point, you win. Let's keep digging up dinosaur juice and burning that, as it's so much better for everyone compared to my solar charged EV.
@JimmyF: Sure I have. But with 800+km range, extendable by carrying extra fuel, I stop when I want to stop, for as long as I want to stop.
@SlickMick: Good for you Mate….. Then don't buy an EV and move on with your life. Someone else owning a EV has zero impact on you.
Brakes last longer on EVs despite the heavier load thanks to regen braking and one pedal driving. Makes controlling the speed downhill easier.
I'd say overall the engine of an EV will be much more reliable than an ICE, especially a European one.
An EV doesn't even have an engine. Hence why there is a lot less maintenance.
They have one or more electrical motors though. Point stands, less maintenance!
EV has a computer, what if computer dies ? What if software update go caput? Remember what happened to the Samsung phones not so long ago. Or and the battery or the circuits around the battery.
And electrical motors can die too.
EV has a computer, what if computer dies ?
You should have a look at the dash on any modern petrol car (from the same price range).
@eug: Im talking about computer that controls everything, moden EU can still drive with broken display.
@boomramada: Cars nowadays don't run on carburettors any more. Just have a look at the amount of electronic modules in a modern petrol/diesel car in the same price range.
@eug: Plus there are at #6 most unreliable https://www.topspeed.com/most-unreliable-car-brands-2023/
@boomramada: Yeah, these rankings are really accurate aren't they. The one you linked says Mercedes is the least reliable, Canstar says it's #3 most reliable, Drive reports Mercedes is the most-trusted European brand sitting at #5.
@eug: Nah, there different articles. What I show you put Mercs at #1 due to GLE, where Mercs got tons of models. Having said that, 3/4 Tesla models score worst lol
Article you got concentrated on brands than models, hence Merc as trusted brand according to its user's. Interesting to see 2023 results on Drive article.
Having said that, 3/4 Tesla models score worst lol
I would be interested to see what exactly makes it 'worst'. Is it cosmetic issues like poor paint or panel gaps? Or are they breaking down everywhere?
And more importantly, the question that this whole post is about - what is the reliability like when the cars are 5-7 years old with 140,000km?
We all know the typical issues with petrol cars - leaking oil/coolant/transmission fluid, worn-out water/oil pumps, worn out alternators, faulty sensors, leaking seals, sluggish transmissions, poor mileage etc that all cost money to fix every time they have to be sent in. I do wonder how old Teslas fare. They've been around for over 10 years so it'd be interesting to hear from long-time Tesla owners.
Avg. Yearly Maintenance Costs: $1,047 (RepairPal)
Ouch
Is it cosmetic issues like poor paint or panel gaps? Or are they breaking down everywhere?
As I said, electronics. When computer say No, you need to call the tow truck.
@boomramada: Quite a few of my friends have Teslas and that's not what they've experienced.
That's why I'm wondering how accurate articles like that are. Is it just another case of people-with-problems-complain-while-people-who-don't-just-happily-use-the-product? Reporting bias is a very common problem.
As I said, electronics.
Based on what?
@eug: Its actually based off of the number of recalls a car has had. Usually people associate "recall" with a physical defect. But in Tesla's case, they are able to push out updates for these "recalls". Unfortunately for them, it makes them look worse in terms of reliability when in reality, the issue is solved with minimum effort from the owner.
Tesla just gets a bad rep for build quality and reliability, when people dont really know the full facts. Tesla's from China have decent build quality (I hear more creaks and rattles in my E Class). They dont require servicing, but I have had a few things that needed fixing through their service center (covered under warranty and not major faults)
@eug: For ICE, if the dash fails you can still drive. It wont affect transmission, brakes etc unlike the new model 3 where gear selection is via touch screen! Its just different points of failure. That said, touch screen is probably easy to replace than the transmission.
For ICE, if the dash fails you can still drive.
That's not the only electronics in an ICE car. A modern ICE car has many modules behind the scenes managing everything. Modern cars are no longer simple carburettor-run vehicles that will survive an EMP, they're filled with electronics that manage everything from the interior dome light to the engine itself.
The ECU in a standard car is essentially a computer too. If that dies, then your car isn't going anywhere either.
….It's not like a 15yo ICE is as efficient/economical as it was when new….
True, but it can still run. Any error battery wise with an EV and it goes to shut down or limp mode.
My dad's ICE car had an error pop up on the dash while he was driving. The car went into limp mode and could barely keep up with traffic.
Are you really suggesting that ICE cars never develop problems and break down while driving? How do you think RACQ/RACV/NRMA has survived all these years?
No, i am not saying that at all.
But ice cars can chug along with faults, ev cars cant.
Plenty of 30 year old vehicles running really well on the roads, i dont see that happening with EV vehicles thats all.
Thats not to say i dont want one, one day.
But ice cars can chug along with faults, ev cars cant.
That's an inaccurate statement. ICE cars can chug along with certain faults, but they absolutely can break down and leave you stranded with certain other faults - hence my comment about RACQ/RACV/NRMA above.
The whole argument is that as cars age, engines will be more prone to developing issues than an EV as there are so many more mechanical parts that rely on tight tolerances and rubber-like seals that will wear out.
I'm sure you're very well aware of the problems that come with older engines. Leaking engine oil, leaking/broken water pumps (which would leave you stranded), faulty thermostats, leaking and sluggish transmissions, radiator leaking from a broken hose (would also leave you stranded), radiator corroding internally leaking into the engine or transmission (pink milkshake = transmission replacement), etc. Mechanics make good money now because car engines are so unreliable as they get older.
If you replace all those mechanical moving parts with a much more straightforward electric motor, you're removing many points of failure which should lead to a more reliable car. Not infallible - no one is claiming that. But more reliable. Things can go wrong, there's just fewer things to go wrong.
Plenty of 30 year old vehicles running really well on the roads,
Do be aware of survivorship bias. For every 30 year old car you see running really well, you're probably not seeing the 99 other 30 year old cars that got scrapped because it cost too much to maintain with frequent trips to the mechanic, or the engine or transmission was beyond economical repair.
Also, modern ICE cars have far more electronics than a 30 year old car. Comptuers have to carefully manage every bit of the engine, relying on sensors that can go faulty, to ensure cars meet modern emissions requirements. So if you're concerned about EV electronics failing, keep in mind ICE cars nowadays are run by computers too. That's how dieselgate was possible.
i dont see that happening with EV vehicles thats all.
Well they've only been around for a decade so no one can say for sure.
Teslas first came onto the scene around 2012. Here are some comments by people who bought them around then.
this makes me think of the time a guy blew up his Tesla and put the video up on YouTube because the cost of repair was too high(?)
The Finnish guy with the model S that he strapped dynamite to it heheheheh
There was another one who put a diesel in this model S because the battery replacement was too expensive
I am sure Elon could spy people's bank account balance with Starlink enough to give them a price that is expensive but not that expensive
Just remember that whenever a car salesperson is talking all that's coming out is bullsh17.
What does a car salesperson do when they die? They lie still.
Thats why you need to cremate them.
fire sale!
haha
Make sure the flux capacitor has been properly serviced and you'll be sweet.
Just get it from Jaycar
Dealer was telling the truth - EVs have lower maintenance costs than ICE - engines are less complex, they dont need oil changes (still use coolant), engine braking reduces brake pad wear, no exhaust system. They still use tyres and suspension (and are heavier than ICE on the whole). Ignoring the purchase cost, the running costs of an EV (including fuel) are quite significantly less than an ICE
There are, of course, quite complex software and electrical systems in EVs, but most ICE cars arent too dissimilar so that is probably a wash. EVs may require battery replacement but evidence to date is that most batteries will run for the expected life of the car (many 100,000s kms) before the degeneration becomes relevant in real life.
The issue is whether the additional purchase price exceeds the savings in running costs. All else being equal, since EVs have various other advantages and ICE have various advantages
Pretty sure if you are looking at a second hand Tesla the seller is able to give you Teslas battery condition assessment giving you range loss etc.
The cost difference between used and new is so small now (and getting smaller by the day) that it would make sense to go new. Add to this the benefit of GST exemptions , FBT exemptions and subsidies and it's sensible to go for a new/novated lease.
Just realised its a Model X, maybe it would make sense, would save you from the Luxury vehicle tax.
I'm leaning towards Model Y
How much of a GST expemtion we are talking about?
I've owned several Performance Teslas from the time when they were still rare and special 7-8 years ago (in addition to ICE cars as well). There's no comparison between Model S/X and Model 3/Y. The glaring cost-cutting measures are everywhere with Model 3/Y and you see a Model 3/Y almost every minute these days, especially the base models. In saying that, I'd think twice before getting a Model X that no longer has its Tesla new vehicle warranty, try to find one with a Tesla extended warranty, and most should still be covered under their 8-year battery and drive unit warranties.
Someone in this particular topic mentioned, and I quote:
[…
…]
I am confused. Are the older models better or worse?
@GrungyGirl: Look up starting prices of Model X/S when new, they were not 60K like Model 3/Y. You're not comparing cars of the same level. A fully-optioned Model S Performance was around 250K.
Model X second hand is like $100k isn't it?
Unless the battery fails.