So, I was chatting it up with someone at the Tesla Dealership about getting a pre-loved Tesla X.
They mentioned that the simplified design of a Tesla is one of its advantages, as it reduces the possibility of automotive components malfunctioning. As a result, this lowers the likelihood of costly repairs and maintenance.
I can't help but wonder, though, was there some/any truth to their smooth talk?
@SitarBoy: A sufficiently old car will have nice manual controls that respond instantly, without having to wait for some sluggish computer to respond :)
@gmatht: Agreed, I wish the car kept some buttons and knobs. I dont think the computer is slow for basic tasks, more-so watching stuff and loading websites.
Also I was talking about old Model S and X compared to 3 and Y. Not the old ICE vs EV debate.
you see a Model 3/Y almost every minute these days
Now they know how Camry / Corolla drivers feel but obviously with a premium.
The X won't qualify for the FBT exemption because it's only for EVs held and first used after 1 July 2022 and never paid LCT (first owner)
Income tax exemption too if we're talking about FBT exemption for employees salary packaging
Pre-loved? Nah, it’s used or second hand just like any Toyota or Kia.
Is it really pre-loved? has it ever been serviced? Given Tesla servicing is optional I dont think owners are giving them much love
Pre-loved is just a wanky way of saying used.
and used is a wanky way of saying second hand.
See the article in the Herald today saying a very large percentage of EV owners in the US are considering going back to ICE cars next time around. But not Tesla owners. They're happy.
https://www.drive.com.au/news/study-finds-some-electric-car-…
Wouldn’t be holding too much to those survey numbers. It’s from a ‘conservative’ source. I’ve seen plenty of other similar surveys saying majority would stay electric.
It’s from a ‘conservative’ source.
Hence why Tesla is the only exception. 🤣
S&P Global research. Funded by ICE auto industry
As a Model 3 owner, here are my thoughts:
- You might have long lead times for parts since the X and S is no longer being sold in Australia
- Tesla has made major improvements to their build quality in newer cars.
- The media/control unit uses a newer and faster processor as compared to older cars
Unless you need an X specifically, I would highly recommend a post 2022, 3 or Y.
Does model Y 2023 come with Tesla's new 4680-Type Battery?
Or are they all still 2170-type?
I believe 4680 is only for Texas made cars currently
Do you happen to know if the Tesla's with the 2170-type battery will be replaceable with the 4680-Type battery in the future when it's time for a battery replacement?
3 or Y the only choices available new :)
Someone in this particular topic mentioned, and I quote:
"…There's no comparison between Model S/X and Model 3/Y. The glaring cost-cutting measures are everywhere with Model 3/Y and you see a Model 3/Y almost every minute these days, especially the base models…"
I am confused. Are the older models better or worse?
Yes of course there is no comparison. They are the luxury segment of Tesla cars.
I cant comment on this without knowing what they are - The glaring cost-cutting measures are everywhere with Model 3/Y
They are different cars in different segments.
Not quite related, but if i was offered an ex-rental EV to buy, I would say No.
You're guaranteed that it was exclusively fast charged, stored for weeks at 100% and so its battery capacity would be decreased
Not quite related, but if i was offered an ex-rental EV to buy, I would say No.
I would be wary of any ex-rental vehicle. They could have been driven hard by people who don't care as it's not their car.
You're guaranteed that it was exclusively fast charged, stored for weeks at 100% and so its battery capacity would be decreased
Hmm why would it be stored for weeks? Pretty sure EVs would be in high demand so they'd always be on the road.
Apart from suspension check. If the car battery is lfp then you won't have to worry too much
Simplified? Gotta be joking. Those Gullwing doors on the X are anything but simplified. Nearly everything in a Tesla is unnecessarily complex
Agreed… But those Gullwing doors are amazing party trick!!!
Simplified? Gotta be joking. Those Gullwing doors on the X are anything but simplified. Nearly everything in a Tesla is unnecessarily complex
Have you looked at how a modern combustion engine works? :)
What's your point?
ICE enginers have been honed in over decades and are incredibly reliable. They are also a necessary part of you know, making a vehicle move. Gullwing doors that are a pretty rare thing except for hypercars, are not a necessity.
ICE enginers have been honed in over decades
We are talking about complexity here. Have you looked at how complex a modern engine is compared to a vehicle with an electric motor?
and are incredibly reliable.
Yeah, until they start leaking oil, get clogged sensors, have failing water/oil/fuel pumps, have radiators that leak internally so you get coolant in your transmission…
@eug: The entire vehicle cannot be separated from its driveline. Yes the driveline is simpler but the overall car is certainly not.
The entire vehicle cannot be separated from its driveline. Yes the driveline is simpler but the overall car is certainly not.
Are you saying fewer things will break down on an ICE car than a Tesla?
What makes a Tesla complex to you?
@Brick Tamland: Yup they can. Once you get used to how it operates, it's really no different whether it's 2023 or 2035.
If someone today picked up a first-gen iPod Touch from 2007, I bet they'd be able to use it easily as they're probably familiar with touchscreen operation. It'll be very limited compared to a modern device, but it'll still do what it did in 2007.
If you're talking about the longevity of electronic components, modern combustion engine cars have a plethora of modules and an LCD screen that will fail in 20 years too.
@Brick Tamland: Most new ICE infotainment out of the factory is already outdated and sluggish. Even luxury EV brand like Lucid has problem with laggy screens. At least Tesla runs on AMD Ryzen and it is plenty of fast for it's purpose.
@max900: Well I purchased a BRZ so that kind of shows how important an infotainment system is to me. Most of the time I turn it off.
Have you looked at how a modern combustion engine works? :)
I agree. It is amazing engineering has made something as improbable as a piston engine work, and work so well. Metal slugs sliding up and down inside cylinders at thousands of RPM! With explosions driving them. Who would invent something as crazy as that.
Yeah, I'm pretty amazed at how such an incredibly complex engine works so well together. I really love the sound and feel of my inline 6.
Then the repair bills started pouring in. It all works very well when new, but as they get older and parts get out of tolerance or seals start leaking, it doesn't all work so well together any more.
They mentioned that the simplified design of a Tesla is one of its advantages, as it reduces the possibility of automotive components malfunctioning. As a result, this lowers the likelihood of costly repairs and maintenance.
By this logic any other electric car is the same, no? So why go for a tesla
Tesla X.
Those gullwing doors are insanely complex, guarantee people are going to start having issues with those soon.
Do you also want a Tesla when there are plenty of other good options out there?
Those gullwing doors are insanely complex, guarantee people are going to start having issues with those soon.
How on earth did the car sales person keep a straight face while trying to say a Tesla X was not a complex car
Apart from the party trick doors, what makes it complex?
Apart from the really complex thing what makes it complex? I dunno the rest of it? Vents activated by screen control, Glovebox activated by screen control, retracting door handles, adaptive ride heigh, etc, etc, etc
@Brick Tamland: Right, so you're saying it's complex to operate. I definitely prefer tactile buttons and controls myself.
However I'm pretty sure OP's dealer was talking about the engine (motor) side which is less complex than all the moving parts that rely on tight tolerances and seals that don't leak in a combustion engine.
It's still a car. cars are complex machines. Just because it runs on a battery doesn't mean it's not complex, and the fact that it has a lot of computer driven stuff means fun times when things go wrong.
Why do people think teslas are infallible ?
It's still a car. cars are complex machines. Just because it runs on a battery doesn't mean it's not complex,
No one is saying an EV is not complex. What people are saying is that an electric motor is less complex than a combustion engine that has so many moving parts and sensors and seals with multiple points of failure.
Combustion engine cars are a marvel of engineering and work great when new. But as they get older and parts start wearing down and things start leaking, that's when problems creep in. I'm sure you've heard of plenty of stories where cars keep having to go back to the mechanic for problems that keep coming back. It's… fun times when things go wrong.
and the fact that it has a lot of computer driven stuff means fun times when things go wrong.
Modern combustion engine cars have plenty of computer-driven stuff too. Just look at how many modules a petrol BMW has, for example.
Why do people think teslas are infallible ?
Why do people think people think teslas are infallible? They're definitely not. They can definitely have problems just like any other electronic device.
But it's just a fact that the less you rely on many small moving mechanical components both in the engine and transmission being within specific tolerances and little bits of rubbery material not leaking fluid out after several years in a high-heat outdoor environment, the greater the reliability will be.
Combustion engine cars are a marvel of engineering and work great when new. But as they get older and parts start wearing down and things start leaking, that's when problems creep in. I'm sure you've heard of plenty of stories where cars keep having to go back to the mechanic for problems that keep coming back. It's… fun times when things go wrong.
When cars get old it's not usually the engines that make them uneconomical to maintain, it's usually the combination of worn bushes, suspension, brakes, broken lights and safety devices.
When cars get old it's not usually the engines that make them uneconomical to maintain, it's usually the combination of worn bushes, suspension, brakes, broken lights and safety devices.
I must be really (un)lucky then. I've always had problems with the engine before the driveline. I haven't had a safety device fail.
Leaks are the #1 problem I've seen, making a mess of the engine bay and floor. On my various cars I've had a leaking water pump (at 35,000km and 80,000km - on the same car), leaking thermostat, leaking expansion tank, bad O2 sensor, very sluggish transmission that takes so long to shift that it's dangerous sometimes, bad harmonic balancer, cracked engine mounts, bad ignition coils, bad fuel pump and bad fuel level sensor, the list goes on.
Meanwhile I can count the number of problems I've had with the driveline on one hand. This is across both Japanese and Euro cars. It's always the engine that needs attention first.
@Brick Tamland: and the electronics, as mentioned above.
I can't remember the last time I had a problem with an engine. I reckon they've pretty much mastered that.
It's the electronics that fail and can't be repaired.
Combustion engine cars are a marvel of engineering and work great when new. But as they get older and parts start wearing down and things start leaking
And this won't happen to Teslas just because they have a battery (which definitely doesn't need to be replaced, right?)…
And this won't happen to Teslas just because they have a battery (which definitely doesn't need to be replaced, right?)…
Replace 1 part every 10-15 years? That'd be great!
@coffeeinmyveins: Exactly. You cant just point to one part of a complex machine and say that part is simple and reliable. All the rest of it still needs to operate in harmony. Its great the EV drivetrain is simple but its not much good if the gull wing doors are broken and you cant get in the thing.
Years of talking shit I assume
The number 1 reason why I kept getting Performance Model S Teslas, 0-100 in 2.5 seconds give or take; instant torque, no fuss, no commotion. I can enjoy them just from accelerating to speed limits at traffic lights without attracting too much attention. They effortlessly beat all the ICE 'supercars' I came across including mine while they were still fiddling around with their launch controls. Too bad that Elon decided to cancel RHD Model S Plaid, just another one of his odd impulsive things.
I have a Model X, if you're getting one second hand, I would recommend one with a Raven drivetrain (late 2019 or older). This gives you 1 pedal driving, ridiculous amounts of power (on the performance model), adjustable ride height and adaptive suspension. If you do get one, get some aftermarket camber arms and get the wheels aligned at the ride height you want to drive at, otherwise you will burn through tyres.
Feel free to ask me any questions you may have.
The best reason for not getting a Tesla is Elon Musk himself who now thinks he's God's gift to the world.
man i've been binge watching Thunderf00t's youtube channel lately with all his debunking of Elons projects (hyperloop etc) and it's hard not to believe his prediction that Elon will be bankrupt in 5 years. It's crazy that people still buy into the cult of elon.
Haha Thunderf00t brings back 2015 vibes
Elons projects (hyperloop etc)
Not that I've seen the video but isn't the prevailing hypothesis that hyperloop was intended to go nowhere so consumers would just buy EVs?
Ah yes a 4d chess move by elon
I don't know how you handle the smugness of Thunderf00t.
Go watch videos from a couple years back. Thunderf00t's said SpaceX would never send humans to orbit, never be able to reuse rocket boosters cost effectively. The guys probably wrong 90% of the time.
Automotive experts have advised Elon that Tesla needs to stop attempting to make 'perfect' quality cars if he wants the Tesla brand to survive long term
… seems that current successful car brands make the majority of profits from the selling of spare parts to effect repairs to on-road vehicles
So moving forward … expect more lemons and loosely attached parts
Thats a strange reason for purchasing (or not) something.
In theory an electric car should be much more reliable due to it's simplicity… battery, controller, motor, right?
Yes that holds true such as with an ebike vs petrol powered bike. No worrying engine compression, fueling, spark, timing, clutches wearing out, etc…If the battery dies then it's a $250 replacement, if the controller dies then it's a $60 replacement, nice and cheap DIY friendly. RC cars are the same thing.
But for an electric car… you're not talking about a cheap DIY battery/motor/controller/replacement off eBay. We're talking about a 2019 $42,000 second handed model 3 that's gonna cost $25,000 for a battery replacement.
And yes sure the battery should last for way way more than the warranty period… but as with all electronics things happen. I'm sure you've had laptops die suddenly overnight. It doesn't happen regularly… but it can happen.
At least with a petrol car it will show signs of problems without dying suddenly. An ICE car will show smoke, stuttering upon acceleration, be hard to start when cold, trouble idling, check engine lights… etc. You will have time to get rid of it or fix it before it becomes worthless.
You could be driving along in an EV and the car pops up a warning saying that it's in limp mode and to take it to the dealers… and when you get there they say it needs a new battery costing $25,000. What are you going to do now? Beg the car for mercy?
That's cheap compared to a Land Cruiser engine we replaced recently. Customer was just driving it along and bang. No warning. No smoke. No lights or buzzers, just a loud bang and lots of knocking…
Toyota quoted them $48,000 for a new long engine EXCLUDING labour. We ended up sourcing them a low km engine (98,000km) for $22,000 and had about $3000 in labour to put it back in…
So, tell me again how expensive batteries in EV's are to replace…
I'm not disagreeing with you…. but even at $48,000 for a new engine replacement… it doesn't come anywhere near the current/appreciating value of that car. And being an ICE, you can source parts from anywhere (if it fits, it sits).
As for a 2nd handed model 3, you can't take it anywhere else but the official dealer. Whatever they charge, they charge. You can take it to an independant if there are any and try to source a battery from a wrecked car but Tesla can just flick you off the supercharging network just like that. I reckon it makes more sense to part/scrap the car once it needs a battery replacement at this stage. Price drops coming in left and right, new models, new brands, etc.
Check the warranty on the battery for second hand. Tesla now offers 8 years for the battery, not sure on older models.
Most of the 2nd handed model 3s that are in the $45-50K range are from ~2019 and have about 2-3 years of battery waranty left. At that price I reckon it's a dangerous game to play.
Nah, I would wait… still too many Ponzi scheme cars on sale… Why the (fropanity) would I pay $52k for your 2020 car with 67,000km on it when I can get a brand new 2023 with 0km on it for about $2k more (after rebates)
I have seen a few Model 3 cars dip under the $40k mark (down as low as $38k for a 2020 with 47,000km on it) so the Elon "Electric Jesus" tax is starting to wear off and show the cars real value.
Does model Y 2023 come with Tesla's new 4680-Type Battery?
Or are they all still 2170-type?
No Model Y in Australia doesn’t come with 4680 battery pack. Either LFP (in RWD) or NCM battery 2170 battery in Long Range and Performance.
4680 batteries aren’t that impressive anyway. Go look at some owners who have them in their Giga Texas Model Ys.
The charging curve isn’t anywhere near as good as the NCM 2170 batteries.
I hear the cost of replacing 4680 battery packs is lower?
Also, I would like to know which option is considered "better" between LFP and NCM 2170. I understand that you can charge LFP batteries up to 100% without impacting their overall lifespan, but is there anything else?
Not sure on the replacement cost. The 4680 batteries are structural battery packs, so not sure it would be cheaper to replace.
I think if you are not phased with the slower performance and slightly slower charging, live in a warm climate in Australia, LFP is a great option as the longevity is significantly better than NCM 2170.
Where is the poll when you need one?
I tried to create a poll after the fact, somehow I wasn't able to.
Build quality on the first few was meh
By first few, do you mean the first generation of Tesla's i.e. S and X?
Or did you mean only X?
Not sure, about a year ago there was a big post on Reddit. Service using tape to attach body parts. Tesla's being out of services 10+ times 6 months etc
oh wow
Does anyone know how one would test how much life the EV battery would have left for second hand Evs?
The car tells you.
lol really? Car tells you how much life the battery has left?
So brand new how many years does it say?
Yes it does. It displays a battery health percentage like iPhones do. The percentage will depend on how the car was used throughout its life. A car that is used to drag race people at the lights every night will have poorer battery health that one that's driven normally.
That's just like any car; a car that's pushed harder will develop greater wear and tear. A BMW M3 that has been driven by an adrenaline-filled 21 year old will be different to an M3 driven by a 60 year old dentist driving to work and home.
lol
How many years does your kia rio engine say it will last new?
It’s easy to find real world tests and evidence about battery life. Yes, after 8 years it may have 70-90% of its new capacity and that is a factor to take into account.
@dtc: what Kia Rio I don't have one
just would of thought rather than going off the computer battery life there could be someone that has the tools to estimate how much battery / km life there is
similar like some mechanics can see if an engine is any good they could see how good the battery has left…
if it was something like a phone battery, they are pretty much not as good after 2-3 years of constant use. probably not the best comparison but you get the point
as it reduces the possibility of automotive components malfunctioning
While this is true, the chances of electronics failing is considerably high! Imagine the screen goes blank and you are not able to change/select gear
You might not be aware, but ICE cars have plenty of electronics that manage the engine and transmission. They don't use basic carburettors any more.
EV batteries are the biggest negative. Instead of designing them with easier to get at batteries electric cars are essentially being designed as throw away cars.
I’m looking at an EV thanks to the FBT incentives for novated leasing.
Tesla warranties are 4 years for car and 8 for the battery.
If I was considering secondhand, I’d be waiting for an ex lease one as I know it’d at least been serviced and inspected properly.
I’d be waiting for an ex lease one as I know it’d at least been serviced and inspected properly.
I don't think that even a lease can guarantee that it has had the proper servicing and inspections.
The amount of ex lease cars on Grays Online that look ordinary or have been to like 3, 4 or 5 different dealers for servicing is a lot.
Sure, you can’t guarantee but it’s far more likely as servicing costs are including in your payment, rather than having to plan for the cost.
Why would going to different dealers be an issue for you?(assuming you meant the manufacturer service centre)
The amount of ex lease cars on Grays Online that look ordinary or have been to like 3, 4 or 5 different dealers for servicing is a lot
Now you know the government is looking after their corporate mates with this FBT free on EVs thing.
If they are really interested they would FBT free it like tradies get with their utes but you know what lets channel all the benefits through our corporate mates
It was never going to solve the affordability problem given the price is from supply and also cost of the technology
Just remember the battery is designed to only last 10 years then it will become almost unusable. 20k replacement cost……
Why I went Toyota, all over the country and lower social economic places they're easy on roads for 20 years
I hear the cost of replacing 4680 battery packs is lower?
Just remember the battery is designed to only last 10 years
What? I’m not even an EV fanboi and even I know that’s a load of BS. It’s like saying that it an ICE has a 5 year warranty that it’s designed to last 6 years. Batteries last a certain number of charging cycles before it drops below 70%, for Tesla it’s around 1500 cycles. Since each cycle is 300-400km, that’s around 500,000km and even then it means the battery charges to 70% of new capacity - not that it’s unusable
You are more likely to have engine or electronics issues than battery issues
@GrungyGirl: Old cars are better in some ways (better materials, a driver display, more speakers and some other more premium features).
New cars have faster processors (less waiting time when loading something on the screen), they get more of the new features that get released over time, they have newer cameras. Older S & X dont show side cameras without an upgrade.