Out of Control 3 Year Old

archieduh on 21/08/2023 - 15:06
Last edited 21/08/2023 - 15:27 by 1 other user

A friend(not an Aussie) has a 3 year old daughter. We are very close and are like family.
He has been telling me that "terrible twos" is nothing compared to what she behaves now.
I always thought he was joking. Spent the last week with the family on a vacation/get together.
And…. the kid seems straight out of The Exorcist.
Hits 24x7 - you will be sitting with her and BAM punches the eye socket for no reason.
The mother had a fractured arm, hits the arm for her amusement instead of feeling any empathy.
Strangely doesn't hit the father but does everyone including me.
And then at times she will be the most caring child I have ever seen.
She also doesn't sleep enough, not tht she will throw tantrums all the time, she will just stay up in bed quietly but not close her eyes.
Pointing that out as that was the only thing the parents and me believe is the cause for her erratic behaviour.

Irony is I did meet her last year and she was the sweetest child. The parents are great too, so patient that it scares me. Strict when it is needed to.
Never raise their voice or threaten the child.

I feel a sense of hopelessness for them, as they couldn't put her in daycare as she wouldnt eat - not misbehave.
And are just hoping she can get through pre-school without any incident.

I have countless friends preach them do this that, even I thought I will show them a trick or two but am just speechless.
I have seen them try and get help as well but the latest paediatrician they saw said there is nothing mentally wrong with her and is just a phase.
What scared me was she grabbed a fork on the table when we were distracted and started poking the mother non stop who was helpless to defend herself due to the fractured hand.

And all those tiktoks who say "tell them to speak their feelings" and she says I am sorry and keeps hitting.

Only thing I did after spending a week with them is watch - We need to talk about Kevin. The kid isn't far off.

Any advice on what can be done?

Toys & Kids

Comments

    • archieduh on 22/08/2023 - 20:35

      Thanks for sharing.

  • greater mimic on 22/08/2023 - 00:24
    +2

    Maybe they could try a circle of security course. A big focus on child-parent relationships and I really like it, very easy to follow

    • archieduh on 22/08/2023 - 20:37

      Noted. Will share.

  • Cirrus123 on 22/08/2023 - 04:23
    +1

    Food.

    Only provide healthy, non-fun food as a consumable. Any other treats are provided on a behavioral meritocratic basis.

    Weather the storm of the initial outbursts, physically isolate the child if they are physically in any way invading anyone else's space.

    In a week, it will be a different child.

    • Odin on 22/08/2023 - 09:05

      Dude that's awful advice and a good way to give a child a future eating disorder.

    • archieduh on 22/08/2023 - 20:38

      With her health, the parents are advised to let her eat whatever whenever. She generally eats less but well rounded whatever i observed.

  • WarCreation on 22/08/2023 - 06:51
    +3

    Every situation is different so I think seeing a different health care professional is a great option. It could easily be food related, I know my little one had undiagnosed food intolerances that caused behavioural issues that we struggled to get on top of. She was a completely different kid after going on the low FODMAP diet. We changed nothing else and it went from us wondering if she had oppositional defiant disorder to being extremely well behaved and kind. Thankfully, she can now tolerate more of the food that she previously struggled with.

    2 bits of advice I would give every single parent - follow through. If you say something do it. Do not say something you are not prepared to do. Do it EVERY time. In saying that, I can't overstate enough that its important to stay calm so the 'punishment, fits the crime'. She's 3, punishments shouldn't normally last longer than the day. Too often parents over correct instead of taking a moderate approach. https://www.parents.com/toddlers-preschoolers/discipline/tip…

    2nd bit of advice - sleep is important for parent and child alike. Do whatever you can at this age to get healthy sleep habits put in place. See a specialist if needed but it will improve all aspects of the child's wellbeing and the parents mental health.

    Wish them luck, parenting is hard work (but also the best thing in the world imo)

    • archieduh on 22/08/2023 - 20:40

      Thanks. What amount of sleep is the minimum for a 3 year old? To me the lack of sleep is what amazed.
      Especially she wouldnt throw tantrums, but just lie in the bed eyes open (by what I am told and observed a bit).

      • greater mimic on 23/08/2023 - 04:13

        Sleep needs are different for all kids. Some need lots, some need less. If she's sitting in bed and not sleeping then why is she being put to bed? Maybe go for a walk or read books in bed until they're actually tired and ready to sleep

      • WarCreation on 23/08/2023 - 05:12

        10-13 hours is recommended for a 3 year old, this is including a day nap if she is still having one. Some 3 year olds no longer want/require a nap and that's ok but they should still be getting a minimum 10 hours at night.

        I fully recommend seeing a sleep specialist to assist, they are worth their weight in gold. They can recommend different routines, foods to avoid or possible medication if required; a paediatrician could also assist but sounds like they need to find a different one.

  • Daddy Chill on 22/08/2023 - 06:57

    Let kids be kids they cannot regulate their emotions

    • archieduh on 22/08/2023 - 20:41
      +1

      I wish so too. Hope its just a phase.

  • Alley Cat on 22/08/2023 - 07:57
    +1

    The parents need to go to therapy, not so much the kid. Any therapist knows it comes back to the parents, and any responsible therapist would request parents to go through treatments. When the parents change, the kid changes with them. And when the parents gain an understanding of the part they played (genetically and behaviourally), they can start teaching the child to work with whatever the child has (what looks to be amplified dysfunctions the parents are carrying).

    • archieduh on 22/08/2023 - 20:41

      Hmmm… with all due respect, I highly doubt it is the parents. They have been loving and the grandparents are involved too.

      • Alley Cat on 22/08/2023 - 21:18
        +1

        It's nothing about them not being loving, but everything to do with loving the child the way she needed to be loved. Also love is a very diverse concept, it means very different and sometimes opposite things to different people. People used to beat children out of love, for example, and a few cultures around the world still do things to their offspring that western society deems criminal. None of them are doing it out of hatred, I can guarantee that. If one has not experienced love, one would not be able to give it, very simple. If you never knew what sweetness taste like, all you could do is proximate what it might feel like and give your interpretation to whomever. And because you are somehow an authority in their lives, they never question your definition of it. So you conditioned them to think they know what sweetness is while they have no clue whatsoever. I'm not saying this is the case for your friend, only pointing out the common assumptions we tend to make about ourselves, especially when it comes to the subject of love and control.

        Anyways, I hope you and your friend find the help you want :)

        • archieduh on 22/08/2023 - 21:28
          +1

          Got it. I understand what you mean now better.
          Thanks again for taking the time. Appreciate it.

    • Joda on 23/08/2023 - 23:12

      In instances when it is the parent(s) - would most therapists actually come out and say that?

      I could imagine the therapist regularly losing work and many negative reviews/complaints.

      • Alley Cat on 24/08/2023 - 10:29

        It depends on the therapist and the parents. I don’t consider it ethical to not tell the parents this myself, but it can be delivered in different ways. It also works against the therapist’s interest in having a long term paying client. Essentially what this does is to train the parents to become therapists to their children, which is in the best interest of the client (the child), because the parents have the best access to the client, kind of an obvious thing to do methinks.

        You teach the world what kind of people you want to work with, not the other way around, in any scenario. People who do not want to change aren’t going to be good clients anyway in this case. They would keep paying to feel good about themselves, and you keep enabling them and play out the prostitute archetype. Win-win? I really don’t think so 😅

  • FlyingMiffy on 22/08/2023 - 08:37
    +1

    Personal experience. My 2.5 year old pushes boundaries all the time. I see it as her way of discovering, learning, exploring and that includes me as her dad. My little one is also extremely attached to me so its usually way more effective when i discipline and teach her. And when i do it, im not expecting her to understand everything im saying, but at the very least she learns that some behaviour results in certain expressions and has a cause and effect. Your description sounds to me that the dad needs to do more and protect the mother a bit, at the very least teach her that dad thinks its not OK to hit mum - and go from there. Also, if you think sleep is an issue (and biologically, kids need a lot of rest), perhaps the parents need to work on that sleep routine (from what expends her energy during the day to what does she do before bed and how do they help her settle). Oh and kids settle to daycare differently. Mine didnt eat for the first 2-4 weeks either - now eats more at childcare than at home.

    • JohnWick1980 on 22/08/2023 - 15:56
      +1

      Good points raised. And concur on the eating part, they will eventually come around. Might take 4-6 weeks but they will start eating in most cases. Parents are generally too soft these days and throw in the towel too easily blaming everyone/everything around them.

      • FlyingMiffy on 22/08/2023 - 17:45
        +1

        Its alot harder when its our own kids. Lots of arguments with the missus when we were debating how long to stick it out for… all i can say is that most kids are built tougher than we give them credit for.

    • archieduh on 22/08/2023 - 20:43

      Thanks for sharing. Hope its a phase for her too.
      With her being underweight they could not continue the daycare any longer but good to know your experience.

  • Hawks33 on 22/08/2023 - 09:01

    Reward good behaviour and correct bad ones,that is what we do with our 3 year old Border Collie. :)

    • Odin on 22/08/2023 - 09:08
      -3

      Kids arent dogs. One of the biggest mistakes parents make us translating dog training onto children.

      Basically nothing about dog training should ever be used on a child.

      Dogs are pack animals, nothing at all like us behaviourly

      • tunzafun001 on 23/08/2023 - 20:47

        Ha!.. We are BOTH pack animals, and 90% is the same.
        As an educator (with 2 amazing dogs) I often experiment to see how kids respond to the basics I use with my dogs, ie. whistle / instruction / visual feedback.

        Well, 99% of them do exactly what I want without saying a word. But there is always the one switched on student who pulls you up and says "we arent dogs".. to which I reply "of course not, dogs always do what they are asked the first time". With a smile. But then say im impressed you picked that up, you can be my special helper (another trainer if you will). That one student I will treat differently (ie. get them to set up etc). The rest of the "pack" just go about the task blissfully unaware what is going on.

        As for the Ops post. I havent read the other notes. But sleep and diet issues were clearly mentioned. Two of the biggest factors there are. Get them in routine asap.

  • 1Kenobi on 22/08/2023 - 09:40
    +2

    Tripple P parenting
    123 magic (also helps the parents discipline themselves)

  • cashews on 22/08/2023 - 09:44
    +5

    As someone who does volunteer work with neurodivergent kids, Ozbargain is the last place I'd look for advice. The parents need to seek professional advice.

    • archieduh on 22/08/2023 - 20:45

      I know. I didnt ever every expect to get so many responses. And I was on my way back home from work that I posted it just to vent out, but have become a bit more invested just going through so many people sharing their experience.

  • skillet on 22/08/2023 - 09:54

    Hits 24x7 - you will be sitting with her and BAM punches the eye socket for no reason. The mother had a fractured arm, hits the arm for her amusement instead of feeling any empathy.

    Need more info here, what's the kid's expression? What's the mom's reaction and how did they deal with this? Does she have a sibling? You can try foster care a dog temporarily, studies shown that kids grown up with pets are more caring and gentler.

    Strangely doesn't hit the father but does everyone including me.

    Some obvious reason can be deducted here, it looks like the dad has more authority in this matter

    She also doesn't sleep enough, not tht she will throw tantrums all the time, she will just stay up in bed quietly but not close her eyes.

    Not enough outdoor activities. Bring her out in the morning, walk her like a dog. Drench her brain in the sun for a good hour or two let her soak up all the sunshine goodness and she will be packed with lots of melatonin that will knock her out in no time. Kids this age(plus not being at daycare) have very little to worry about unlike kids starting kinder/school. Is she still taking naps? Perhaps it's time to cut it off or reduce the naptime. No chocolate after 2PM. Chocolate has lots of sugar and a small amount of Caffeine in it, yes small but a 3yr old is also very small. Some people are more sensitive to caffeine and can often affect sleep.

    The parents are great too, so patient that it scares me. Strict when it is needed to. Never raise their voice or threaten the child.

    Wait till they have three kids.

    I feel a sense of hopelessness for them, as they couldn't put her in daycare as she wouldnt eat - not misbehave.

    My Precioussssssss. Kids are human and they get hungry they will quickly learn that if they dont eat now, they will have no food later. If you/daycare enforce it. Also daycare can help your kids learn plenty of things, good and bad of course.

    I have countless friends preach them do this that, even I thought I will show them a trick or two but am just speechless.

    Parenting skills isn't something you can clone because not all kids are the same. It's more of learn from experiment thing. However it's always good to listen to other parents and work from there. Every little kid is a person and have their own atitude, behavior and character. They are small human with big feelings they need help to deal with. They can always be moulded just dont give up. Your job as a parent is never give up. Once you say that you give up you lost the battle. How can you lose to a 3 yr old that came out from you?

    • archieduh on 22/08/2023 - 20:53

      When the kid hits out randomly, is smiling as if its a game or I dont know that she is 6 month old.
      When hitting out of irritation, is just restless.
      Asking her why she hit mom with a fork got no answers and all were clueless.

      Interesting advice on taking her out 1st thing in the day.

      Choclates - O, this kid hates choclates. Yup. Likes lollipops or candy but more to play with then eat. I was so sure it was the sugar but was flummoxed as never had been around a kid who doesnt like any chocolates.

      No siblings. I dont think they plan to have any more kids. She is very very friendly with other kids and pets. I have added "Pets" as an idea in my notes, thanks.

      With her weight issues, they had to pull the plug on daycare as they could not wait and watch anymore. She is now approaching time to start pre-school and they do plan to do that as they are hopeful she has now imroved her eating.

  • GourmetFoodie on 22/08/2023 - 09:58
    +3

    Firstly I’d get an MRI/brain scan if the change was dramatic. Sudden aggression can be due to brain tumours.

    Otherwise I’d try the usual -
    No screen time
    Healthy no sugar diet
    10-12 hours of sleep
    Plenty of outside time and physical activity
    Lots of positive reinforcement and one on one time

    Also I’d seek professional checks for hearing and verbal comprehension / communication skills because the violence could be frustration.

    Something is going on inside that poor kid’s brain. She needs help. It’s very sad.

    • archieduh on 22/08/2023 - 20:54

      omg, I dont even know if I can mention that to the parents but if it was me it would be the first thing I would want to know.
      hope this is not the case.

  • happylime on 22/08/2023 - 10:09
    +2

    If I were them, I would definitely have her assessed by a psychologist, or better yet, by at least two psychologists to get a more rounded assessment. Detecting our daughter's autism took years in our case. This kid may not have autism, but she may have something else, this is just an example. Identifying mental health issues in kids is very difficult, even for professionals. It is also common for parents to ignore red flags since they want to believe that their child is okay.
    My advice is not just to hope she will grow out of it because we made that mistake and it took longer to diagnose, accept it, and start therapy.

    • try2bhelpful on 22/08/2023 - 10:25
      +1

      Thanks for your post. It is important that any underlying issues are dealt with before just assuming the child is being wilfully naughty. Otherwise kids are being punished for just being themselves.

      • trapper on 22/08/2023 - 12:30
        +2

        Otherwise kids are being punished for just being themselves.

        What does this even mean? Punching mum's broken arm for a laugh, oh she's just being herself. No not acceptable.

        • happylime on 22/08/2023 - 16:02
          +2

          Physically harming someone is never okay.
          You might have to hold kids with mental problems or use medications depending on how severe the problem is.
          The condition can be difficult to detect in kids, so they may appear normal most of the time.
          Punishing them will not achieve anything and will only add to everyone's stress.

        • try2bhelpful on 22/08/2023 - 16:02
          +2

          I’m talking about if they are autistic or have a psychological problem. They may not be able to properly regulate their own behaviour without treatment or alternate coping mechanisms. This “for the fun of it” comment is not coming from the child itself. We don’t know what is motivating her.

    • archieduh on 22/08/2023 - 20:56

      Thanks for sharing..

  • MessyG on 22/08/2023 - 10:56
    +2

    OP they need to go and see their GP to be worked up for things like sleep disorders (3 year olds can get sleep apnoea, the constant sleep deprivation makes them nuts), iron deficiency, and other nutrition related disorders, and when they've ruled out the medical they need a referral to a paediatrician or paeds psych. They sound like they're not coping and need help. Please don't give them parenting advice from Ozbargain, tell them to get her to the GP and talk about it all.

    • archieduh on 22/08/2023 - 20:57

      Yeah I know, i just made notes based on the comments and want to base that to have a general chat with them soon.
      They were not that alarmed imho but I was shocked and feel they need to take it more seriously as the child is not a toddler anymore.

  • spurf on 22/08/2023 - 11:15
    +1

    You're on the right track with what you picked up around sleep. At this age particularly, the basics of life are key. Sort out the kids sleep, diet and exercise. Minimise screens to an absolute minimum or none at all. My kids are older and very well behaved but stuff up any of the above and their behaviour deteriorates. Some kids are perpetually sleep deprived, sugared up and on the screens and everyone wonders why they just can't behave! Punitive discipline won't address this.

    • archieduh on 22/08/2023 - 20:58

      Thanks for sharing

  • tessel on 22/08/2023 - 11:28
    +1

    Melatonin for sleep. Not a doctor.

    • archieduh on 22/08/2023 - 20:58

      Thanks for sharing

    • GourmetFoodie on 22/08/2023 - 20:58
      +1

      Mate, way too many parents pill popping melatonin into their kids. The medical profession is concerned about the impact on hormones now. Best avoided in kids unless done with medical supervision.

  • charkwayteo on 22/08/2023 - 11:28
    +2

    I have a 4yo son - it's important to really establish red lines in behavior very early on. From 2 year old onwards they can understand quite a lot.
    It's super important that they communicate and play with the child often.

    No way would stabbing his mother with a fork be acceptable for example, I'd explain not to do it again along with the reasons 'this hurts mum etc etc'..

    If the child keeps on stabbing mum with the fork, take said fork and use it on the Childs own arm (don't be emotional, be neutral and do as a matter of factly… not hard but enough to be uncomfortable) and ask them, does this feel good? They'll shake their head… it's worked for my son for many things…they know when they're naughty.

    Sometimes you have to smack kids, but give them fair warning and explain what they're doing is wrong and why it's wrong, and again if you did smack them explain why you did and highlight the warnings you had given them.

    Also if the kid calls you out on something that YOU did wrong, tell them they're right and say sorry I won't do it again. It's important to lead by example and not be a hypocrite.
    My son has called me out for walking around brushing my teeth in the living room, wearing shoes in the house, eating hot foods on our couch etc. All things that I tell him not to do as well.

    It might also be that the kid wants more quality attention and bonding time, if they don't feel loved enough etc they might lash out to try and get that attention. They would rather someone angry at them than ignoring them or giving them a half a**ed attempt at playing with them.

    TLDR: Be firm but more importantly be loving and spend ALOT of quality time with them. Communicate and explain things to them even random things that you observe yourself, basically vocally narrate your life in front of the Child when they're around they'll appreciate you talking to them. They are people at the end of the day.

    • try2bhelpful on 22/08/2023 - 12:07
      -4

      You don’t need to smack children.

      • charkwayteo on 22/08/2023 - 13:55
        +1

        You do you… everyone has their own way of raising children, don't need to follow my advice or anyone else I'm just giving my 2 cents.

        My son is happy and loving to us and others and gets along great with other children at school and surprisingly it's been an absolute breeze raising him, so far no attempts at stabbing either parent.

        It's hard to give advice to OP, no one knows first hand what goes on 24/7 in the household he's complaining on behalf of…so many factors at play here.

        • try2bhelpful on 22/08/2023 - 13:58
          -1

          No you don’t. You just take that short cut.

      • dowhatuwant2 on 23/08/2023 - 09:57

        For sure, there are other less effective methods that can be used.

    • archieduh on 22/08/2023 - 21:01

      Thanks for sharing and taking the time..

  • screensaver on 22/08/2023 - 12:03
    +1

    I think Supernanny gives warnings, and then follows through

  • trapper on 22/08/2023 - 12:14
    +1

    Well they have about one or two years to get her under control, or it's going to be a very difficult life for the poor girl. These formative years are critical.

    The boundaries should be very clear and consistently enforced with no exception.

    The punishment doesn't even need to be anything that serious, I mean we are talking about a three year old here, it just has to be done immediately and consistently.

    ie
    Minor bad behavior - Three calm but direct warnings, and if she continues then a three minute time-out.
    Major bad behavior (hitting someone, breaking things) - Immediate time-out.

    Time-out is supposed to be boring. So sit her on a stool away from any distractions or toys, don't interact with her, don't discuss the behavior, accept any apologies etc, she just sits there bored for three minutes. If she refuses to sit still then you go sit with her and keep her there, but minimal interaction. If she screams her head off then go do timeout outside or in the garage where it won't annoy everyone else. After the three minutes then you discuss what happened and she can apologise and have a cuddle.

    It will suck for the first week or so while she gets used to the idea of being accountable, but the pay off is so worth it.

    • Odin on 22/08/2023 - 12:52
      +1

      Immediate time-out.

      There's a lot of talk these days about timeouts actually being quite harmful for children. The problem with a lot of parents implementing time outs, is that they end up withdrawing from the child and actively trying to "punish" the child.

      The lesson that the child learns is that parents (or anyone close to them who they rely on as a caregiver), will stop loving them. Or even blackmail them by withholding, removing, or exploiting their need for contact, companionship, and love.

      If you think that timeouts are good. It's best if you have to do them, to keep a parent or caregiver around, and say something like " I can see that you are having trouble with strong emotions, and you're having a hard time not hitting. I'm going to take you into the other room and we're going to sit together and have a break or a time out. I'll be here with you but we're doing this because the way you were acting is not okay" - or something along those lines.

      What you want to do is teach kids how to self-regulate and how to have feelings that are strong and work through them in healthy ways. I really think the punishment in these cases is just harming kids and isn't conducive to raising a healthy child into a healthy adult.

      • trapper on 22/08/2023 - 12:59

        There's a lot of talk these days about timeouts actually being quite harmful for children. The problem with a lot of parents implementing time outs, is that they end up withdrawing from the child and actively trying to "punish" the child.

        This is not true at all.

        Children have to learn that their actions have consequences, it is one of the most important lessons every human has to learn.

        If you don't teach them this, you are going to f8ck up their entire life.

        • Odin on 22/08/2023 - 13:27

          Children have to learn that their actions have consequences, it is one of the most important lessons every human has to learn

          It's really ironic that you're writing that considering you're ignoring the consequences of your actions. modern research is showing that punishment based lessons are not the best way to raise healthy adult children.

          Ultimately, what are you trying to teach a child?

          "Do what I say or else someone bigger than you is going to hurt you" - how is that setting them up healthily for the future?

          • trapper on 22/08/2023 - 14:09
            +1

            @Odin:

            "Do what I say or else someone bigger than you is going to hurt you"

            What are you even talking about? Where did I say you should get someone big to hurt your child. You're delusional.

      • archieduh on 22/08/2023 - 21:05

        So hard right? What to do what not to do?

    • archieduh on 22/08/2023 - 21:05

      Thanks for sharing.. interested to find out then what the experience has been.

      In this case I assume this child will NOT sit still, she will start running around and lauging as if its now a game, no matter how serious a face you make she will laugh it off. How do you make a child sit like this follow instruction?

      And its not that this is the case all the times, times she will behave, time she wont.

  • mr fox on 22/08/2023 - 12:19
    +6

    There is some appalling commentary and 'advice' in this thread. A true dumpster fire.

    To the OP seek professional help, not advice from this absolute peanut gallery.

    • try2bhelpful on 22/08/2023 - 12:32
      +2

      Absolutely. Apart from the OP, nobody here has even met the girl. How on earth can they make any sort of comment on why she is behaving the way she is and the best manner to address it?

      I find the “hit the kid” comments astonishing. Do we wonder where the prevalence in violence comes from in society when we teach kids that the best way to react when someone is not doing what you want them to do is to hurt them?

      Parents need to learn to set boundaries and negotiate. You are meant to be the responsible adult and smarter than the kid. It is this sort of “corporal punishment”rubbish that defined DV as between a man and his wife. Sometimes she needed to be disciplined because she wasn’t doing what she was told to do. Funnily enough this is now a criminal offence.

    • trapper on 22/08/2023 - 12:53

      Don't be so quick to assume a mental health issue though, and the pediatrician saw no cause for concern there.

      The parent's haven't even attempted any form of discipline yet, that needs to be the first step.

      • try2bhelpful on 22/08/2023 - 14:40
        +1

        How do you know what the parents have tried? We have a third person account from someone who doesn’t live with the family. Personally I would short circuit the process by getting the kid checked out. Particularly as the behaviour has changed drastically in a year.

        • trapper on 22/08/2023 - 15:41

          OP just spent the last week living with them… and describes a totally out of control child with essentially no boundaries at all.

          • try2bhelpful on 22/08/2023 - 16:10

            @trapper: You haven’t observed the child, you haven’t spoken to the child, you have no idea what the child is thinking. You are getting the OPs interpretation on this. This is why I’ve said elsewhere if the child is this bad they should be getting professional help to identify why the kid is doing this. Especially as her behaviour has changed so much in the last year. The parents need professionals to provide them with mechanisms to deal with the kids behaviour not some randoms on the internet.

          • archieduh on 22/08/2023 - 21:11

            @trapper: Thanks @trapper but sorry If I didnt clarify. I dont think the parents have no boundaries.
            They have been firm when needed, have tried to make her understand what hitting can do to others.
            And there was an instance where we "punished" the kid for hours by not talking. 3 hours felt like a lifetime for a 3 year old but we couldnot follow through.
            Even then it wasnt like everyone coddled her. The parents just told her that uncle and aunty are not going and will talk to her the next day.

            • trapper on 22/08/2023 - 23:41
              +2

              @archieduh: That is not being firm though… That is just being mean to a three year old, she will learn nothing good from this.

    • archieduh on 22/08/2023 - 21:08
      +1

      Thanks. I didnt expect so many responses, but it is good to have an idea of what the world would do.

      Rainbow of responses - Hit her, dont hit her. Punish her, dont punish her. Punish her X and not Y, do Y not X.
      But at least it gives me insights into what opinions are.

    • trapper on 22/08/2023 - 13:11
      +1

      Yeah this is great, works so well.

      Only thing I don't like is the name, 'naughty' step. Time-out is better imho.

      • archieduh on 22/08/2023 - 21:12

        Thanks for sharing

  • 2esc on 22/08/2023 - 12:56
    +1

    Problem is unless a doctor or specialist sees these behaviours first hand they are not motivated to look closer at the problem.

    Finding that right doctor is the problem.

    Not the same but we had a problem with our first child not sleeping till we took him to sleep school suggested by our fabulous GP.

    It was just one afternoon teaching us the parents how to deal with him not sleeping. Some techniques involved as to the process but essentially dont be so soft/caring.

    Both my wife and i had pretty strict and hard parents so went too soft wanting a better upbringing for our own children took us a while to work out a better balance.

    • archieduh on 22/08/2023 - 21:13

      Exactly, i feel a doc needs to see this errratic behaviour first hand. I asked the parents if they have some of it on video and to show it to the doctor next time they meet up.
      I too feel no doctor would have listened to a 5 minute description.

  • Ruckmauler on 22/08/2023 - 13:33
    +1

    I see it's been mentioned above - but remove sugar. We had a 3YO and he wasn't as bad as you have reported but we noticed he went bonkers after something with sugar. Without sugar the difference was night and day. Not only did his behaviour improve but so did his sleep - which led to better behaviour as he had the energy to engage and listen. We have gradually reintroduced treats occasionally and he is able to cope.

    • archieduh on 22/08/2023 - 21:14

      Thanks for sharing.
      Sugar is limited on what I saw (the kid doesnt like chocolates) but maybe some food could be a trigger.

  • Spootage on 22/08/2023 - 13:40
    +3

    Time for the wooden spoon!

  • Hangryuman on 22/08/2023 - 14:27
    +2

    so many possibilities to explore …

    one thought - had the child been abused, so she is now acting out of anger ?

    secondly - medical checks - is she suffering pain, and hitting out of frustration ?

    what has changed since she was the 'sweetest child' previously.

    if she behaves sweetly in front of strangers, and arcs up only with the family, that's suggests learned behaviour to get what she wants from too-soft parents

    is there a conflict between the parents - typically one is soft, one is harder - and the child has learned to leverage this conflict so the soft parent guilt-shames the hard parent into letting the child have what they want ?

    Dr.Phil used to say pick your battles, but when you do, don't EVER lose - or the child simply learns to scream for longer, knowing they will win in the end.

    Another of his suggestions was whatever the kids loves most, take that away - and the kid will realise the consequences of their undesirable actions.

    • GourmetFoodie on 22/08/2023 - 21:05
      +1

      The abuse point is actually REALLY important and I’m surprised no one else has mentioned it…I didn’t even think to myself. But it’s actually common that kids being sexually abused may exhibit quite radical behavioural changes. It can be a silent cry for help. I pray that is not the reason for this poor child’s behaviour though.

      • archieduh on 22/08/2023 - 21:16
        +1

        I am mostly positive this is not the case (no one can be 100%) as the parents had been in lockdown for 2 years.
        Don't even know if this is the case what else can I do apart from praying.

    • TiredKitty78 on 25/08/2023 - 07:01

      if she behaves sweetly in front of strangers, and arcs up only with the family, that's suggests learned behaviour to get what she wants from too-soft parents

      Or she's forming unhealthy attachments and expressing love and affection more readily with these others that are the same as her, not scary dangerous aloof adults…
      OP was also a stranger and likely got the 'sweet' version for a while, now she's closer she gets the other version of her.

      Or it's learned behaviour that everyone close adult but dad is fair game for being hurt….

  • CheapAddict on 22/08/2023 - 16:52
    +4

    In all honesty, i'm not sure why you're getting too involved. I don't completely understand your relationship dynamics with your friends but unless your help was invited or requested, I'd probably stay out it. You may seem like a caring friend but your over stepping those boundaries.

    • archieduh on 22/08/2023 - 21:18

      I know.
      I didnt expect so many replies on the thread but now that there are, just made few notes and plan to share "my thoughts" whenever we get on a call next.

  • Pungentia on 22/08/2023 - 17:31
    +1

    Consider suggesting they see a different paediatrician/speech/occupational therapist and push for a general assessment, taking early intervention if warranted. Sometimes kids can present so differently to treating professionals, keeping video footage or a behaviour/sleep diary might be useful.

    Do note that whilst you didn't like the child's behaviour, the parents may be doing the best they can. Turning your back on them due to the child's behaviour would be hurtful. Compassion is warranted. Maybe don't take holidays together in future?

    • archieduh on 22/08/2023 - 21:19

      Thanks for sharing

  • King Tightarse on 22/08/2023 - 18:44
    +1

    Shock collar + remote

  • Aneurism on 22/08/2023 - 18:49
    +2

    Poor discipline is the fault of the parents, not the child. Super Nanny was an interesting show to see how wild children are enabled by their parents and steps used to combat it

    • archieduh on 22/08/2023 - 21:19

      I am curious to watch the show now that everyone has mentioned it

  • Crabcrabchow on 22/08/2023 - 20:55
    +2

    Let me just say, Parenting is hard and kids suck. Speaking from experience of a parent of both neurotypical and neurodiverse kid.

    Firstly, what you see as a parental response may be different to what happens behind closed doors.

    The parents need to seek help from an OT and a play therapist (more so for parental education aspect). Their Gp may be able to help with a chronic disease plan (may be renamed now) to subsides sessions.

    Consistency. In whatever method/rules/whatever you choose. Be consistent.
    No empty threats, and no he sweeping threats like “we’ll leave” when you clearly won’t follow through.
    Deescalate the situation and then one the child is regulated explain what they did wrong and what they could do instead next time … “you wanted to play with the toy, but the boy had it. We don’t hit, it hurts people. Next time we could ask the boy for a turn”

    Put the kid in daycare. If she’s not eating that’s a problem for the daycare to help with. Worst case I’d accept shorter days, but a child should not be excluded for that. Social interaction is a hugely important for building them towards school. This won’t magically resolve in preschool.

    If the dad doesn’t seem “attached” this could be a huge contributing factor. Kids don’t articulate well, their feelings tend to manifest in other (confusing) ways. Ie my child kept putting us feet on the dinner table one day. Drove us mad, kept doing it even though we did time out etc, and it was out of character. At bedtime he goes “my feet are itchy”. Damn it. Poor kid had itchy feet but couldn’t work out to tell us at dinner.
    Simple, regular, dedicated connection of what she wants to do may go a long way.

    Anyway. The parents need to get on the same page. United, firm front. Consistent.

    • archieduh on 22/08/2023 - 21:25

      Thanks for sharing. You're right in a way, I can see both parents have a bit of conflict where the father has kind of given up and feels "ignoring her out" will solve the problem and the mother feels "explaining her else calling her out" is the way to go.

      Maybe with time the kid does learn to communicate better, I saw a million tries to have her explain but she was struggling.

      The daycare as I mentioned in some other comments was cut short due to weight issues of the child. She is too frail (yet surprisingly energetic.

  • kosh52 on 22/08/2023 - 21:48

    My 3 year old is same. Eats a lot of sweets, screams/yells/cries non stop, can’t sleep at night, hits people as well.

    I’m somewhat in the know medically (am a radiographer, have a sound medical diagnostic mind but the medical entrance exam is way too difficult and ciphoned me out of the system), I would say the differential diagnosis is autism, adhd or both. Also helps to look at the family history. If there is autism and/or adhd in either side of the family, likely child has it too.

    IMO sooner you treat the better. I want to get my son treated (behavioural therapy/medications) but “pediatrician” says you can’t diagnose under age of 5 as they can ‘grow out of it’. What hogwash

    • archieduh on 22/08/2023 - 22:33
      +1

      Hope you get the support needed ASAP.

      This child doesn't eat a lot of sweets.

  • LoserScott on 22/08/2023 - 21:51

    Does the child wat what ever the child wants,
    Is the child spoilt,
    Does the child fight back once you've promised it something,
    Has the child been sitting in front of the TV 24/7 or iPad.

    • archieduh on 22/08/2023 - 22:35

      I couldnt see the child being spoilt. The child is just unpredictable.

      The tv time is also… If all adults give up we just out the tv on for her.. no iPads or phones are given..

      • LoserScott on 23/08/2023 - 23:52

        Sounds like she has ADHD, and undiagnosed autism.

        One or the other.

        But I don't like that stereotype unless it's so bad there's no other underlying cause.

  • fullmetal on 22/08/2023 - 23:38

    Children are copycats. The behavior is likely copy from somewhere, need to check what the child is exposed to.

  • payless69 on 22/08/2023 - 23:54
    +1

    A bottle of Ritalin a day keeps her ADHD away?

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