Out of Control 3 Year Old

archieduh on 21/08/2023 - 15:06
Last edited 21/08/2023 - 15:27 by 1 other user

A friend(not an Aussie) has a 3 year old daughter. We are very close and are like family.
He has been telling me that "terrible twos" is nothing compared to what she behaves now.
I always thought he was joking. Spent the last week with the family on a vacation/get together.
And…. the kid seems straight out of The Exorcist.
Hits 24x7 - you will be sitting with her and BAM punches the eye socket for no reason.
The mother had a fractured arm, hits the arm for her amusement instead of feeling any empathy.
Strangely doesn't hit the father but does everyone including me.
And then at times she will be the most caring child I have ever seen.
She also doesn't sleep enough, not tht she will throw tantrums all the time, she will just stay up in bed quietly but not close her eyes.
Pointing that out as that was the only thing the parents and me believe is the cause for her erratic behaviour.

Irony is I did meet her last year and she was the sweetest child. The parents are great too, so patient that it scares me. Strict when it is needed to.
Never raise their voice or threaten the child.

I feel a sense of hopelessness for them, as they couldn't put her in daycare as she wouldnt eat - not misbehave.
And are just hoping she can get through pre-school without any incident.

I have countless friends preach them do this that, even I thought I will show them a trick or two but am just speechless.
I have seen them try and get help as well but the latest paediatrician they saw said there is nothing mentally wrong with her and is just a phase.
What scared me was she grabbed a fork on the table when we were distracted and started poking the mother non stop who was helpless to defend herself due to the fractured hand.

And all those tiktoks who say "tell them to speak their feelings" and she says I am sorry and keeps hitting.

Only thing I did after spending a week with them is watch - We need to talk about Kevin. The kid isn't far off.

Any advice on what can be done?

Toys & Kids

Comments

  • josaya on 23/08/2023 - 02:30
    +1

    100% agree on consistency and socialization. This thread brings out years of bad experiences/memories and have deleted most of what I've typed "off the cuff"… probably 95% depression (and self reflection) talking. Was the child was given any tasks while she was busy hurting people, or was this "free" play and physical altercation guaranteed attention tool for her (plus cuddles!).

    For sanity, I detached emotionally from my eldest son many years ago, so I sympathise, but your friend still needs to be "invested" in her future. Does mum chime back support for dad when there is backtalk? Yes, they have to gang up and discuss things away from the child if there are inconsistencies.

    On the "Trauma" narrative, I'd have to agree that it can cause sudden changes, eldest relapsed substantially earlier this year when a holiday was cancelled (airline system errors), and has taken ~3 months to get back on track. Something as simple as a house move, or favourite parent changing jobs can trigger behavioural change from discussion with other parents.

    • GourmetFoodie on 23/08/2023 - 13:21
      +1

      That sounds damn rough. Are you guys in a better place now?

      • josaya on 24/08/2023 - 14:22

        Thanks, it's mostly normal now. Having been through something multiple times daily vs monthly (now) certainly helps. There's a reason psychologists can't really assist until they are 6+, as that is roughly when they start to improve (or not).

        • GourmetFoodie on 31/08/2023 - 08:39

          Glad to hear things have improved. Parenting is not for the faint of heart. In my opinion a lot of the tough stuff about kids and parenting is still kind of swept under the rug by society. It’s not hard to “lose your freedom” but it is really challenging if you have a child with special needs/trauma/neurodivergence etc etc

        • archieduh on 24/10/2023 - 15:24

          Hope things get better for you. Thanks for sharing.

  • Davo1111 on 23/08/2023 - 04:05

    They can discipline their child. The kid is no longer welcome, and you won't be attending if the kid is present

  • dylo on 23/08/2023 - 07:06

    If it is a "friend" as you say I'm not sure how they would feel having their situation plastered over a public forum. If they are unable to fulfill their duties as parents than they need to seek professional help. Having a "friend" ask advice on a bargains forum isn't exactly the best way to source adequate resources for your/their failure as a parent. It's time for them to deal with it and you to move on with your life.

    • archieduh on 24/10/2023 - 15:26

      They are not Australians so doubt they will use this ever. But if they ever, yes our relationship will be really sour.
      They didnt ask me for advice, I just spent some time with them and was just having a tough time getting over it that how does one sort a situation like that.

  • Spic3y on 23/08/2023 - 08:46

    I have a couple of young kids and this is how we did it (full disclaimer that all kids are different and what might work for one situation, might not be suitable in another)

    Hits 24x7 - you will be sitting with her and BAM punches the eye socket for no reason.
    The mother had a fractured arm, hits the arm for her amusement instead of feeling any empathy.

    Classic attention seeking. I would be very surprised if the kid is actively trying to cause pain, they are simply trying to be the center of attention. I'm going to guess this is an only-child family too? Not too many other kids around in their family or kids to socialise with?

    Strangely doesn't hit the father but does everyone including me.

    The father is stricter behind closed doors. Some things you put up with in a group/crowd to keep the peace that you wouldn't put up with at home.

    She also doesn't sleep enough, not tht she will throw tantrums all the time, she will just stay up in bed quietly but not close her eyes.

    This can be hard to quantify especially in a 'holiday' situation where they are in strange beds, in a strange room. I wouldn't be concerned about this.

    Pointing that out as that was the only thing the parents and me believe is the cause for her erratic behaviour.

    Be careful talking about other kids behavior with parents. They see everything that happens and are probably trying to deal with it themselves which can be stressful.

    Irony is I did meet her last year and she was the sweetest child. The parents are great too, so patient that it scares me. Strict when it is needed to.
    Never raise their voice or threaten the child.

    I am doubting this.. You shouldn't threaten a child but you can say something like "this behavior is mean and others don't like it, if it continues you will lose insert favourite toy/TV for X amount of time" and if they continue to play up, you have to follow through with the punishment.

    I feel a sense of hopelessness for them, as they couldn't put her in daycare as she wouldnt eat - not misbehave.

    She would eat if she got hungry enough. The kid has now learned that if she doesn't eat, she gets her own way. Kids are smart, smarter than some adults I think..

    And all those tiktoks who say "tell them to speak their feelings" and she says I am sorry and keeps hitting.

    Don't parent kids from TikTok. If you had a good childhood, raise them like you were raised. If you didn't have a good childhood, here is your chance to do the right thing. People have been having kids for generations without social media and parenting blogs. Do what is right for your family, in your families situation.

    I was once visited by an old friend who was now a single dad with a toddler. I made up a cheese platter and cracked a couple of beers and his kid found a spatula and started hitting our cheese and biscuits. I told the kid "No, stop that" or something along those lines and the dad corrected me and said "we don't say no to our child, we ask him why he is doing that and if he could please stop". That kid was an absolute nightmare. Discipline isn't bad if it can be administered properly.

    • TiredKitty78 on 25/08/2023 - 07:08

      "we don't say no to our child, we ask him why he is doing that and if he could please stop".

      Fook me drunk, no wonder he's a nightmare.

    • archieduh on 24/10/2023 - 15:29

      Ths initial points you mentioned were bang on, only child, less social activity during COVID etc but in terms of punishment this kid had ego beyond her age.
      Its been months and I revisited this post as I heard the behaviour is improving overall.

      • Spic3y on 24/10/2023 - 19:15

        They go through stages for sure. I'm pleased to hear things are improving!

  • imurgod on 23/08/2023 - 10:36
    +1

    I have a very close friend with similar issues but a 9 year old.

    He's been seeing a child psych and it's helping a lot.

    That's where I'd be starting.

    • archieduh on 24/10/2023 - 15:29
      +1

      Thanks for sharing. They may start if it continues but things seem to be improving.

  • kalithreaver on 23/08/2023 - 12:45

    we know a couple of people with kids like this, both kids i believe have some form of learning difficulties/autism and are signed up for professional support.
    sounds exactly like what they go through with the kids, they need to get the child checked for autism.

  • beefmaster on 23/08/2023 - 15:39

    I saw a dad trying to reason with his toddler and the toddler slapped his face.

    • Munki on 23/08/2023 - 16:44
      +1

      Reflexes of a sloth. Ain't no way a kid is gonna do that to me.

  • N15 on 23/08/2023 - 16:47
    +1

    I'm no expert on kids but some of the behaviour issue and not sleeping could be diet releated?

    • koplik8 on 24/08/2023 - 11:19
      +1

      Spot on! I've seen the cr*p people feed their kids and wonder why they are bouncing off the walls. I made a decision with my little one, early on, with things like chocolate. Chocolate is like a drug for kids. Once they start, they won't it all the time. We never got treats like the kids do these days. Soft drinks and chips were treats. Same like going to the movies. It really made us appreciate it as it didn't happen very often

      • N15 on 25/08/2023 - 13:39
        +2

        One time I got on a flight and there was a lady and her very well behaved kid in the seats next to me. As the plane was taxiing to the runway the lady pulled out a Krispy Kreme donut and gave it to the kid. About 15 minutes later (after takeoff), the kid then started screaming and jumping up and down on the seat and having a tantrum. I remember her saying to her kid "why are you doing this? You were so well behaved all morning".

        • koplik8 on 01/09/2023 - 07:24

          Sugar overload maybe!

  • SpicyStew on 23/08/2023 - 21:33
    +2

    “My kids accuse me and my wife of being fascists. They say that none of their friends have the same rules. That’s because we have seen the dangers of technology first hand. I’ve seen it in myself, I don’t want to see that happen to my kids.”

    “Every evening Steve made a point of having dinner at the big long table in their kitchen, discussing books and history and a variety of things. No one ever pulled out an iPad or computer. The kids did not seem addicted at all to devices.”

    Wise words from jobs

    • koplik8 on 24/08/2023 - 11:26
      +2

      I'm an older Mum. It saddens me that at a cafe a parent will pass their phone to their kid rather than talking and interacting with them. How do kids learn to behave in social situation or interact with people if you use your phone as a cheap baby sitter. It's appalling! You know parents you can just say NO!

  • uk3000 on 23/08/2023 - 23:04

    Not saying this particular child might necessary have any of the following, but the terms to be on the lookout for are OCD, PBD, ADHD. A specialist to consult with would be the Occupational Therapist.

  • sashatheman on 24/08/2023 - 08:46

    What scared me was she grabbed a fork on the table when we were distracted and started poking the mother non stop who was helpless to defend herself due to the fractured hand.>

    That shit needs to be put out immediately. Sound like soft parenting without any discipline of when the child is doing something wrong.
    The mother needs to tell them sternly that what they are doing is wrong. Child keeps going, should receive appropriate discipline.

    • archieduh on 24/10/2023 - 15:32

      Thanks. This behaviour is improving.

  • cupcake on 24/08/2023 - 11:03

    The child likely has autism. There are 5 types.
    Does the child have outbursts? Can't ever sit still? Non verbal?
    This is very tough for the parents.
    I say put the child into day care if possible for the sake of the parents' mental health.
    If she doesn't eat, then she will learn eventually she will be hungry.
    This is terrifying and the parents need more support and advice because this is not normal.

    • archieduh on 24/10/2023 - 15:33

      Thanks, as of now the pediatrician has ruled it out but they are considering all options, though things I hear are better than I posted this.

  • koplik8 on 24/08/2023 - 11:13
    +1

    I truly swear by Super Nanny. When I was younger, I thought that when I have kids, I'd like to do what she does. It truly works. This is the best episode I've seen. The change by the end of the episode is incredible. She is a single Mum. Super nany give her what for and she needed it:

    The McKinney Family Full Episode | Season 6 | Supernanny USA - YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qyCTuF1JaI
    Jo arrives in Reno, Nevada to take on her toughest kid ever. Kaiden, who is 3 years old has gotten so physically aggressive and he was kicked out of two preschools

    • archieduh on 24/10/2023 - 15:34

      Thanks for the link, watching it in a few mins now.

  • bobolo on 24/08/2023 - 14:09
    +1

    Aside from any medical conditions the kid may have, there really are only 2 things to do when raising children;

    1. punish when they do bad things
    2. reward when they do good things

    Any kind of parenting that deviates too far from the above and the child will have behavioral problems

    The issue with modern society is the punish part is often frowned upon, and/or parents have become weak if the child starts crying at the realisation that punishment is around the corner. You have to follow through. Its the only way. And the type of punishment needs to be something they genuinely fear - like being locked in a pitch black bathroom for x amount of time, or a slap on the hand/bum that is enough to hurt but not injure, or genuinely taking away something from them and sticking to your guns to not give it back for an extended period of time.

    The WORST thing to do is to try and reason with them or the simply laughable - have them "talk about their feelings"….seriously - such a joke society has become.

  • capslock janitor on 24/08/2023 - 14:44

    whats terrible twos ?

    • cupcake on 24/08/2023 - 15:01

      Very bad behaviour at the age of two to three.
      An era known as the "terrible twos".

  • capslock janitor on 24/08/2023 - 14:49

    sounds familair…
    are yous sure she's not a 30 year old dwarf posing as an orphan..?

  • TiredKitty78 on 24/08/2023 - 19:45
    +1

    My tldr response;

    • Rule out medical issues, brain tumors to vitamins. For real, if the even kid fell from the bed once, or took a tumble that made you pause for a second - maybe because kids have accidents or that sneaking fear of 'will i get in trouble?' that you ignored to say 'they're just overtired'. Tell your doctor. Shit happens every day, chances are, it's nothing. But if there was something…..

    • I'd say get them on a routine, but i'd say if that's been done badly, they WILL need help fixing it.

    • Get the parents and the kid to a psychiatrist, this to me seems like a first step to handling multiple facets to this issue. As a layperson here i'm putting ideas out

    • Has/is the child being abused - sexually or otherwise. This can cause rapid behavior shifts.

    • Remember if there were times that you questioned….someone….or something….even your partner. Maybe something felt off. For the kid, consider everything.

    • The parents need to their come to jesus moment. Routines, discipline, nutrition, spoiled or neglected, are 'uncommon' beliefs being pushed onto the kid that the majority of the world does not reflect. Is there an environment (or that vs 'home life') that might be 'confusing' them (which i'd say is psychological abuse). Is there a 'good cop bad cop' parent dynamic? A 'stingy' authoritarian parent and a 'spoiling' enabling parent. What about in the wider family? This inconsistency can really mess kids up - long term - and is something that a good psychiatrist would probe.

    • They might suggest having a social worker shadow you - perhaps even record your household these days - to assess how the child acts or reacts. How each parent acts and reacts, to the child, each other, the situation. Looking for any things that can be changed that we average idiots just do because that's probably how our parents did it. For any inkling of something that might be what lead to this change in the childs behavior.

    • To me, most importantly, a lot of work can and will be done so everything else but the child and how their brain works can be ruled out. Before trained professionals can start possibly diagnosing. They may not even be able to because of the childs age, but if they suspect something, better to on that like white on rice. Because for me if everything can be ruled out, my first instinct says that child is, at least their natural internal wiring thus far, to be what we would call a 'bad egg'. You might have called them the demon child back in the day, who maybe grew out of it - aka they learned how to hide it or they wound up in prison to…no ones real surprise. Today that's personality disorders, or perhaps brain malfunctioning.

    And to me, back in the day that kid would have got yelled at, would have got a smack. And they learnt to fear, and that also taught empathy (i'm not a psych, don't ask me to explain). These personality disordered ones maybe learnt fear, to a certain extent - but they skipped empathy, or even just to obey. They may or may not have learnt NOT to do what would get them unloved by their parents, or punishment that escalated from a disciplining 'smack' to…some real shit. Point is to me this 'new' gentle parenting has possibly led to the child lacking fear, that may or may not come before empathy. Back in my day, a child that hit me or anyone with a fork for let's say amusement, would get get poked right back and told 'hurts right, not very nice? Would you like me to do that to you? No? Then DO NOT do it again'. And most children learn from that.

    They internalise it as a thing they do not want to happen to them, and that these 'others' just like them, other children they want to play with, be accepted by, their parents and caregivers they want to be loved by aka not abandoned and left to die, would not want to experience it either, and possibly on some level, fear that it might be done to them. And randomly! Or just that it's a thing these 'others' would not like, and in order to be liked (and survive) as most children innately need and crave, so don't so it. Or obey your parents, and don't do it. Is it abuse? No. It's perhaps just the ugly side of how WE are able to empathise. The problem with this kid is that they are reading like one of those that does just NOT innately fear abandonment, consequences, not being loved or liked. Most children seek - NEED - closeness, approval, interaction, your protection, your care. If the child just CANNOT care, or has been taught those things are not a threat by their actions, well you're fooked. Get to work.

    Let's be real, that 'gentle parenting' is likely what is in part fooking that kid up. Though ever kid, and ever household is different. Kids need to some extent 'quid pro quo' parenting. Kids need authority figures for parents, just as much as they need this loving safe space they can always rely on…even if they get mad. That doing nothing while they stab you with a fork? Because what, you're afraid some fookers gonna blast you on tiktok? Well i don't envy you or those idiots you hang with then. Back in my day, a kid that did not learn to - through average common parenting - or could not be trusted to behave, did not get those privileges. You know what came out of that house? Almost exclusively good natured kids who listened and behaved - in between kids just being kids. They will never be perfect.

    The parents have had their fun experiment were i'm assuming they thought they - and tiktok - knew better - and maybe we can blame that no one said 'jesus f'ing christ, you're doing nothing while you kid does that? My kid would have got a smack, and then they'd learn mum makes the rules. Be a better parent snowflake.'. Now it's going to literally cost them, to pay someone to figure out if this is something that needs fixing externally, or if the kid will need ongoing intervention. Because be real, a kid that is all stabby stabby might be disordered, but you owe it to the kid to figure out what was you (parents) and the external environment, before you say they are internally mixed up. And if it's the kid, i really feel for you, because sns, we can label it, give it names for the disorder, but some kids are born bad. DO they have to stay that way? That's between you and the psychiatrist/social worker/paediatrician.

    • archieduh on 24/10/2023 - 15:35

      Thanks for sharing.

  • BumbaT on 24/08/2023 - 22:16

    Kids will be loud and sometimes it may feel like they are "out of control". The real problem is that it is more than likely the adult who feels out of control and that mistakenly needs to display some kind of emotional reaction be it verbal violence such as shouting and threats, or physical violence such as hitting, pinching, shaking, emotional abuse such as threats of abandonment or the "I am leaving" type of abuse, or those that downplay the childs response or ignore the response through stonewallimg without any way for the child to have a chance at feedback.

    As an adult, one needs to find out why the child and their socially unacceptable emotional responses (in the adult world) can trigger one so much that ome would even resort to at worst,criminal activity such as physical violence.
    As an adult, ome may ask themselves, why can't I control my emotions and start shouting the way a toddler would, why am I not acting like an adult in a situation such as this? Why am I letting this child win the argument by emulating the very thing that I don't want them to do?

    Some education on how to improve your emotional intelligence is the key, because other types of intelligence won't work with a child's mind the way one may think it does. Stop diagnosing kids, diagnose oneself.

    Children act out more when they are in the presence of their parents especially the mother, there are physiological factors such as hormones and other factors involved such as sleep and diet, however it is you as the adult that is the x factor. It is how you respomd rather than react that determines the outcome.

    Wanting a child to listen, requires one to think in their world. You have to convey the REAL consequences that come with doing A, what they want, vs doing B, what they don't. The response must not be based in an emotion reaction, it has to be a response connected to the action and the consequences behind which actions the child will choose.

    Don't be afraid to let the child have a tantrum to the detriment of social acceptance or even embarrassment and judgment from others, as long as you can peresevere with the process. Even a child will get tired of a tantrum if it doesn't get them the emotional response they will accept, be it positive or negative.

    I will admit it is a much harder task than what has been written and based on some emotionally charged reactions just on this thread, there are those that struggle with their emotional intelligence.

    Think about this, dealing with a toddler with a tantrum is nowhere near as difficult as dealing with a ken or karen with a toddlers emotional intellgience.

    • archieduh on 24/10/2023 - 15:35

      Thanks for sharing.

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