Can You Drive a Manual?

maxyzee on 25/06/2023 - 20:02
Last edited 25/06/2023 - 21:34 by 1 other user

With my daughter almost up for her Ls I’ve been debating with my wife about whether she goes for a manual licence or auto licence.

I’ve been pushing for both kids to know how to drive a manual, and I know realistically most of the time they’ll be driving an auto but I still think it’s a useful skill to have in those instances. Before our current cars my car was a manual and man was it a pain in the arse cos my wife couldn’t drive it so if ever went out with that car I couldn’t drink haha.

Anyway I was wondering how common is it nowadays for people to not know how to drive manual and also how common or not common it is for parents to be teaching their kids a manual.

Poll Options expired

  • 614
    Yes I can drive manual and own a manual car.
  • 1058
    Yes I can drive a manual but don't currently own a manual car.
  • 95
    No I can’t drive a manual but would like to.
  • 262
    No I can’t drive a manual and have no desire to.
Automotive

Comments

  • Wiadro on 25/06/2023 - 20:06
    +28

    i know how to drive manual when i need to, but i have no desire to ever own a manual car again.
    mainly because the manual cars id like have appreciated in value.

    • maxyzee on 25/06/2023 - 20:08
      +8

      Is it mainly because of how annoying it can be in stop start traffic or you just don’t enjoy the process of changing gears in general?

      • Scrooge McDuck on 26/06/2023 - 14:19
        +47

        Only driving enthusiasts will have any utility for manual gearbox competency. The trend away from manual vehicles will only accelerate as electric and self-driving cars become more common.

        Also, I seriously doubt the poll results reflect Australian society. People's egos deter them from entering a thread and responding that they can't do something.

        • cainen on 26/06/2023 - 15:45
          +12

          Also, I seriously doubt the poll results reflect Australian society. People's egos deter them from entering a thread and responding that they can't do something.

          And also those who can't drive manual most likely don't give a shit about driving or cars in general and have no interest in opening an automotive thread.

        • rumblytangara on 26/06/2023 - 15:52
          +7

          Also, I seriously doubt the poll results reflect Australian society. People's egos deter them from entering a thread and responding that they can't do something. In New South Wales, automatics have become the car of choice for learner drivers.

          Stats from an ABC article for NSW:

          In 2022, 231,000 driving tests were carried out in automatics, while only 29,000 were in manuals, or just over one in every 10.

          https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-04-17/manual-cars-and-licen…

          NSW seems more skewed than other states, but I would expect all states to be moving more and more towards automatic licenses. I would expect that well under less than half the drivers on the road under, say, the age of 30 are going to know how to drive a manual.

          The poll results… are pretty much meaningless imo and do not reflect either reality or common sense. Anyone who has even glanced at the used car market should have a pretty good idea how things stand.

          (And yeah, I know how to drive a manual, but don't have any emotional stake in it.)

          • akl977ad on 26/06/2023 - 17:54
            +2

            @rumblytangara: In NSW you can drive manual without doing a manual test. After you get off your P1s your automatic vehicle only condition is removed automatically.

            Manual tests are only useful for the people who want to drive manual from the get go. I've driven one a few times despite never doing the manual driving test.

            • Eeples on 26/06/2023 - 22:29

              @akl977ad: I think you can legally drive a manual car even with a P1 automatic only condition provided you have a fully licensed driver with you.

              • akl977ad on 28/06/2023 - 08:00

                @Eeples: That's kind of pointless though. It's basically being on your ls.

          • LFO on 26/06/2023 - 18:17

            @rumblytangara: Wonder if the "statistics" cater for market AVAILABILITY of manual cars.

            Maybe manual sell less because there are less brand new manuals to sell …

            Not sure if factual but apparently Volkswagen Australia will only import/bring Golf and Polo as automatic.

            Statistics lie … in many different ways …

            • rumblytangara on 26/06/2023 - 18:36

              @LFO:

              Maybe manual sell less because there are less brand new manuals to sell … Not sure if factual but apparently Volkswagen Australia will only import/bring Golf and Polo as automatic.

              Well, yeah, sure. Newer cars tend to be automatic (I've been car shopping recently), people who buy newer cars are very unlikely to be trained up or familiar with manuals, so the population is shifting heavily towards not being able to drive manuals.

              Chicken or egg, doesn't really matter.

              But manual-able drivers are a dying breed. Like drivers who can navigate using a road map book form (do these even exist anymore? I was wondering the other day).

              • Harold Halfprice on 26/06/2023 - 19:22

                @rumblytangara:

                Like drivers who can navigate using a road map book form (do these even exist anymore? I was wondering the other day).

                Recently was overseas for work, and had to do a fair bit of driving. It occurred to me how stupidly difficult it would have been if I needed to use a map.

                • goraygo on 27/06/2023 - 20:10

                  @Harold Halfprice: Why not use Google map and pre download the area first?

                  • Harold Halfprice on 27/06/2023 - 21:06

                    @goraygo: Because Google maps didn't exist back in the day?

                    I'm saying I realised how hard it would have been if I had to rely on a physical map

              • chriskq on 27/06/2023 - 12:43

                @rumblytangara: Golf GTi and Golf R only in manual… doubt thats true

              • LFO on 27/06/2023 - 20:14
                -2

                @rumblytangara: "Newer cars tend to be automatic"

                Correction: the AVAILABILITY of newer cars tend to be on automatic (lowest common denominator).

                The 3M … Manual, maps and manuals …Like with foreign languages, only needed when they are needed. But not everyone will need it.

                But, like with anything else: wait for the zombie apocalypse and and we'll see who survives … :-]

              • LFO on 29/06/2023 - 10:58
                +1

                @rumblytangara: "Like drivers who can navigate using a road map book form (do these even exist anymore? I was wondering the other day)."

                Actually it just clicked in my mind: is it so much different to read a road map book versus reading a tablet, phone or infotainment showing … showing a ROAD MAP? ? ?

                Isn't about verrry similar? (other than the verrry obvious paper versus a screen medium)

                • rumblytangara on 29/06/2023 - 11:21
                  +3

                  @LFO: Are you being serious? They are utterly different driving experiences.

                  For starters, and this is the one that seems to get most people, a paper map doesn't auto-orient and loads of people have trouble with compass points versus direction they are looking- how often have you seen people start turning paper maps sideways or upside down? Second point is that a nav system tells you stuff like "take the left lane, turn left in 300 metres" which a book doesn't do. Third point is that a nav system auto-centres so you don't have to plot a course across 3-5 pages of a Sydney A-Z book.

                  Road maps make you plot your own course, sanity check it, and as a result the paths tend to embed themselves into memory. Following a nav system you'll go on all sorts of weird sub-optimal streets and you probably won't remember much of the journey if you have to do it again later. There's been loads of research on related areas such as knowledge retention when people use tablets versus textbooks just for studying (not maps, for academics)- physical paper leads to significantly better recall.

                  Give an A-Z book (or whatever they are called here) to a typical 20 year old who leaned to drive with a nav system and I suspect their head will explode.

                  • Ghost47 on 29/06/2023 - 20:23

                    @rumblytangara: 💯 If one was to use a map these days they'd have to memorise every turn on their route (unless they want to stop and check). Way different to having turn-by-turn navigation tell you when to turn etc.

          • Repposh on 23/01/2024 - 09:29

            @rumblytangara: People can learn to drive a manual after passing their driving test in an automatic. They can also learn in a manual but choose to do their test in an auto.

        • LFO on 26/06/2023 - 18:20

          "People's egos deter them from …"

          Also people's ego will make them say they do know how to drive but wouldn't care to do it … when in reality is: "Embarrassingly I never master the bloody gearbox and I don't want anyone to know …" (like those unable to read and write …)

        • Lets Make Sandwiches on 28/06/2023 - 20:56

          Ozbargainers are typically more engaged and capable than the standard aussie. This is a male dominated site and men would have far higher % capability to drive a manual.

        • the wiz on 30/06/2023 - 19:39
          -3

          I am not a driving enthusiast and you are wrong.

          There will be manual cars on the roads for many more years. You have an advantage if you can operate manual vehicles.

          1. You never know when you might NEED to drive a manual.
          2. Basic control of the vehicle. You shouldn't have a licence if you don't know the difference between 5th and 2nd gear.
          3. Self driving cars aren't going to happen in the next 50 years.
          • the wiz on 01/07/2023 - 17:47
            -1

            @the wiz: Why waste a downvote on my comment without saying what's wrong with it? I made valid points.

            Whoever you are, why do you have a problem with real life?

  • apsilon on 25/06/2023 - 20:16
    +16

    IMO it's pointless to learn manual these days unless you specifically want to and I say that as someone who has two manuals. Manual cars are now rare, there's only a handful that can still be bought new. Let your daughter decide if she wants to, you said yourself you don't even have a manual car in the family.

    • fantombloo on 25/06/2023 - 22:59
      +16

      First lesson I put my daughter in my little buzzbox manual. Was a great qualm to replace her "yeah whatever dad, I know what I'm doing" attitude.

      • Nickels n Dimes on 26/06/2023 - 21:55

        Probably have her even more attitude on the road 🙄

        • fantombloo on 26/06/2023 - 22:54

          I don't mind the attitude if it's warranted.

      • the wiz on 30/06/2023 - 19:54

        If she is using both feet and both hands, she is actively engaged in operating the vehicle. I won't let my kids get an auto license. Learn how to drive properly, or stay off the road.

        • the wiz on 01/07/2023 - 17:53
          -1

          Again…. Why keep downvoting my comments if you don't have anything to say?

          I'm guessing it's the same stupid coward.

          You can hide from me. But you can't hide from yourself.

    • Caped Baldy on 26/06/2023 - 09:04
      +8

      cheaper to rent manuals in some countries

      • MJR on 26/06/2023 - 09:18
        +14

        I originally learned in a manual but haven't driven one in 18 years. Now we're looking into hiring a car in Ireland and will have to pay 50% more for an automatic.

        • md333 on 26/06/2023 - 12:59
          +1

          I paid for a manual rental in germany recently, but they didn't have any manuals so ended up getting an auto for the manual price. Not only had auto gearbox, but parked itself too.

    • Odin on 26/06/2023 - 09:51
      +9

      Manuals much less likely to be stolen.

      That's one of the biggest benefits.

      Thieves may be able to hack your car to remote start it, but they often don't know how to drive a manual

      • Euphemistic on 26/06/2023 - 10:03
        +18

        I’m not convinced this is a thing. I’m fairly certain anyone who steals cars is going to be able to drive a manual. Might stop an opportunistic teen from hopping in if they get hold of the keys, but not most drivers.

        • Caped Baldy on 26/06/2023 - 10:54

          it's definitely a thing in the US.

          • resisting the urge on 26/06/2023 - 11:49
            +2

            @Caped Baldy: Becoming more a thing here.

            But it depends on the thief profile, which is influenced by the kind of car they might be trying to steal. They tend to steal what they know how to re-wire/defeat anti-theft systems.

            IOW, If they are opportunists sure. But for pros, a clutch won't present a limiting factor at all

            • Scrooge McDuck on 26/06/2023 - 14:21
              +5

              @resisting the urge: It will stop one armed bandits.

            • nigel deborah on 29/06/2023 - 15:34
              +1

              @resisting the urge: Basically nobody steals modern cars by "re-wire/defeat anti theft systems" (because it's extremely difficult). The vast vast majority of cars with immobilizers are stolen using the keys, probably taken during a home robbery.

              • resisting the urge on 30/06/2023 - 12:33

                @nigel deborah: True. It's the most popular way in relation to modern vehicles.

                And I hazard a guess to say if they do get a key, they will take it away- even if they aren't proficient driving manual.

      • crabcancer on 26/06/2023 - 13:33
        +2

        I bought a manual recently. The comprehensive insurance was cheaper then compared to an auto of the same version.

      • Dogsab on 26/06/2023 - 17:58
        +2

        I had my manual car stolen end of 2020. The thief had no issues. One my first thoughts as I saw it driving out my driveway after waking up to the engine starting at 3am was that the manual did not stop them at all lol.

        • dbmitch on 26/06/2023 - 18:56
          +1

          Gonna need a few more decades before the 'manual car stops thieves trope' actually has significant relevance

          • Clipzero on 27/06/2023 - 11:13

            @dbmitch: its like the public road versus a race way, its literally design for the general public to easily drive on them. You can definitely learn to drive a manual with a empty car park and an afternoons time, its just that most people don’t even have access to a manual to begin with. And honestly no need for it.

    • belongsinforums on 26/06/2023 - 12:56
      +4

      some jobs require a manual license

  • tight-ass on 25/06/2023 - 20:19
    +12

    Manuals are a dying breed & many car manufacturers no longer offer manual transmissions.

    I got my manual licence nearly 30 years ago and soon after my HR (truck) and R (motorcycle). There was only one instance I needed to drive a manual, which was a bus for a friends hen's party. Don't waste their time or your money.

    Updated to add that cars with manual transmissions used to be cheaper than the auto version by a couple of grand, hence the popularity of them. This no longer applies.

    • Logical on 26/06/2023 - 09:47
      +7

      perhaps a dying breed in AU, definitely not in EU!

      • ceroau on 26/06/2023 - 10:40
        +16

        Europe is the opposite site of the world.

        This statistic may surprise you but most Australians, live in Australia.

        If some 19 year old Aussie is backpacking around Europe, they likely aren't blowing their budget on a hire car and if they are, that budget can probably be stretched for a hire car with automatic transmission.

        • LFO on 26/06/2023 - 18:24
          +2

          LOL!

          They may "live" in Australia but are absolutely DESPERATE to go and visit Europe as often as they can afford it. Repeatedly.

          Fact: when budgeting/backpacking every dollar counts. Hiring a more expensive auto is pointless. Every dollar counts.

          • skidexa on 26/06/2023 - 22:45
            +1

            @LFO: lol Europe isn't close or cheap like Bali, most people only go maybe once or twice in their lifetime.

            • GregRust on 27/06/2023 - 06:47

              @skidexa: It may not be as close or as cheap, but you can get there direct these days so easily under a day of travel away. And flights can be cheap (pre-COVID often under $1k return pp.)

          • ceroau on 27/06/2023 - 14:51
            +1

            @LFO: Damn dude you even said it yourself, if you're on a budget every dollar counts.

            HIRING A CAR IS EXPENSIVE PERIOD when compared to the alternative options in most cases.

            Yes I am sure there exist scenarios where a car hire is the only options or the more cost effective option but those would be rare compared to most travelers situations.

            There is no a need for OP to buy a manual car just so his child can maybe one day utilize that skill by saving themselves 100 bucks while claiming poor while hiring a (profanity) hire car to drive around on a vacation on the opposite site of the world. Talk about choosing beggars and first world problems.

          • JH100 on 29/06/2023 - 01:01

            @LFO: From experience, Aussies who go to EU to travel for any length of time usually buy (not rent) an old campervan, often a VW, usually a manual - because they're more practical, cheaper to fix and buy and easier to resell quick (cheaper) when they want to return.

      • ribze1 on 26/06/2023 - 22:00

        Agree! Rented a car in Portugal and had about 10 manual options and only 1 auto. Rented a manual for about $40/day whereas the auto was about $120/day.
        Worked out well that i could drive a manual.

    • tight-ass on 26/06/2023 - 21:29
      +1

      Article from the ABC dated 2021 on the decline of manual vehicle sales in Australia -
      https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-13/cars-with-manual-tran…

      Couple of key points from the article:

      Only 3 per cent of all car sales in Australia are manual
      Some retailers no longer have manual options for some of their most popular cars

  • Jimothy Wongingtons on 25/06/2023 - 20:20
    +9

    Unless the kids are looking to maybe pick up a trade and be given a manual work Ute I don’t see the point

    • Emli on 26/06/2023 - 08:28
      +2

      My son went into a trade. His boss said he would have given him a car if he had a manual licence. We are also going to the UK soon and it is much harder to find an automatic car to hire. Friends who lived in England for a couple of years and Scottish people at work said that manual cars were more common. Probably still not enough reason to get a manual licence.

  • bargaino on 25/06/2023 - 20:22
    +7

    My daughter has her L-plates, and I realise that nobody I know that I can think of, drives a manual now, even though they all have full licenses.
    They seem to be an endangered species. Even the hired moving trucks have automatic transmissions.
    I've owned a couple of manuals, and they were nice to drive on country roads. Not in the city.

    In another 10 years, all gearboxes will be going extinct. Induction motors don't need them. So I wouldn't worry.

  • sumyungguy on 25/06/2023 - 20:24

    Manual drivers are more proficient at managing higher task workloads. But manual cars have become hard to acquire in Australia so it follows that most new drivers are licensed to drive only automatics.

    To help with your side of the debate: the manual variant of a city or small car is cheaper to buy and maintain than the auto, with arguably lower fuel consumption and a longer service life, so your offspring will be able to minimise cost per km in their formative years; Europe and the UK are still dominated by manuals so if they travel there they'll save on car rental; I know quite a few under 25s and they're all grateful to have learned to drive manual.

    • fantombloo on 25/06/2023 - 23:06

      Nothing like grok-ing your car and knowing how it feels. Not how the driving feels, or how you feel, but how it feels. Being a mere machine it's not out of the question to disregard its feelings sometimes - that's half the fun.

      • LFO on 26/06/2023 - 18:26
        -3

        "Nothing like grok-ing your car and knowing how it feels."

        IF that is the case THEN you cannot drive manual. Simple.

        EV or ICE auto are the options.

        • fantombloo on 26/06/2023 - 22:51
          +2

          Sorry, I have no idea what you are talking about. Would be happy to hear more

          • LFO on 27/06/2023 - 20:17

            @fantombloo: Re-read your own post and then it will be just a follow up.

    • ruinawish on 26/06/2023 - 14:07
      +7

      "Manual drivers are more proficient at managing higher task workloads."

      Que? Where did that come from?

        • ruinawish on 26/06/2023 - 15:18
          +21

          I do drive a manual. I just think your claim is BS.

      • barcer on 26/06/2023 - 18:50

        How many automatic prime movers have you driven?

  • blitz on 25/06/2023 - 20:27
    +12

    I enjoy driving a manual A LOT. More fun than an auto, obviously.

    But if our kids were learning to drive tomorrow, I probably wouldn't bother teaching them to drive a manual.

    • boomramada on 25/06/2023 - 21:48
      +3

      Definitely fun driving in countryside but not in Sydney traffic.

      • Ghost47 on 25/06/2023 - 23:28

        If it's at 11 pm at night it's not so bad. But I agree, driving in Sydney in a manual car wasn't enjoyable at all, and I love driving my car.

      • blitz on 25/06/2023 - 23:35
        +5

        Mmm yes that could be tiresome for most people, I agree. Heavy traffic never bothered me though, even with a heavy clutch.

      • MakkhiChoos on 26/06/2023 - 15:30
        +4

        Nothing is fun in Sydney.

      • placard on 27/06/2023 - 09:30
        +3

        Driving in Sydney traffic is awful full stop, regardless of transmission.

    • bhubb18 on 26/06/2023 - 08:49

      Depends on the car, I HATE driving the Renault Trafic thats manual, its boring AF, and theres a massive turbo lag below 1500 rpm. An auto would be a much better option in that

      I do enjoy driving manuals though, just annoying row through gears to commute

  • Stripes on 25/06/2023 - 20:31
    +24

    Better off learning the road in an automatic, so you can spend more time paying attention to the road and your surroundings. Then learn manual if you want later on, much easier with road confidence and skills already.

    • jumpypotato53 on 25/06/2023 - 20:45

      I agree. I mostly had manual cars so far. I feel somewhat selfish from OP to push his kids to learn how to drive in an manual so he can drink.

      • timthetoolman on 25/06/2023 - 20:53

        You know the driving supervisor still has to be under 0.05bac yeah?

        • Euphemistic on 25/06/2023 - 21:13
          +5

          Not once the kids have their p’s.

          • timthetoolman on 26/06/2023 - 03:43

            @Euphemistic: In which case it doesn't matter if they drive manual or auto?

            • Euphemistic on 26/06/2023 - 05:36

              @timthetoolman: If you’ve got a manual car in the family, p plater should be able to drive it. A few times I’ve had to let my kid take my manual car while thiers is out of action.

      • Ricktheroller on 26/06/2023 - 11:22

        "Before our current cars my car was a manual", think you may have misread that one.

    • Ghost47 on 25/06/2023 - 23:26
      +6

      I actually think it's better to learn manual first, maybe a few lessons and then jump into an auto. If you do it that way you're forced to focus on how to control the clutch and change gears as well as monitor your surroundings etc. so when you go back to auto it becomes a lot easier and you can get better at driving faster. Sort of like going from hard mode to easy mode.

      • Euphemistic on 26/06/2023 - 05:39
        +1

        I reckon the other way around is better. If driving in traffic. not having to worry about changing gears whine you get used to other cars around makes it easier until you get used to changing gears. Being able to get a feel for steering, brakes, road position, traffic etc without having to worry about stalling or being in the wrong gear.

        • resisting the urge on 26/06/2023 - 11:56
          +1

          It's just a matter of what seems to be better. I learned how to drive manual at the same time as everything else, which may be a little harder while learning, but so what, get it done well enough to pass.

          Then go do a defensive driving course so you can keep the license and avoid fines, plus avoid killing anyone for the rest of your life.

          IMHO, learning an auto is a waste of time if at some point later you have to go back to 'step 2' and figure out how to co-ordinate gears and clutch with what you are used to not worrying about. The auto first method seems far more likely to make a driver who lacks co-ordination in a stressful situation.

        • Ghost47 on 26/06/2023 - 12:18

          I remember my first few manual lessons, I was thrown in the deep end and had to drive around my [quiet] neighbourhood streets. Changing gears and going around roundabouts felt like a lot to do, but it made me improve quickly. I do see the logic in learning to walk before sprinting, in the case of learning to drive the opposite worked better for me.

        • Blitzfx on 26/06/2023 - 17:09
          +1

          I think kids should probably use a manual if only to make it more difficult for them to use their phone at the same time, as they seem to do nowadays, and assuming the car they continue to drive is a manual

          • johnno07 on 27/06/2023 - 07:24
            +1

            @Blitzfx:

            kids should probably use a manual if only to make it more difficult for them to use their phone at the same time

            I doubt kids make up the majority of offenders here

            • Blitzfx on 27/06/2023 - 11:27

              @johnno07: Yeah because there's more full licensed drivers than there are P's

      • onesandtwos on 26/06/2023 - 22:27

        Agree. It may be because I tried to learn manual many years after automatic, but I found that I kept on slipping into automatic driving mode where I stopped paying attention, and lost interest in truly becoming proficient.

    • the wiz on 30/06/2023 - 20:06
      -1

      No. Understand the equipment you are operating. Even a small car engine puts out a lot of power.

      If you can't drive a manual, you shouldn't be driving a vehicle heavier than 1 tonne.

      • the wiz on 01/07/2023 - 17:57
        -2

        Still the same simpleton downvoting me.

        I've triggered a reality hater.

        Edit: What is your problem with what I'm saying? Replies are free. Just speak. This place is toxic.

  • mskeggs on 25/06/2023 - 20:34
    +9

    Haven’t driven a manual for 20 years until I picked up a rental in Germany last year.
    Was a bit stressful when combined with left hand drive.
    I don’t own one to teach my kids, but I think it is a good skill to have.

    • boomramada on 26/06/2023 - 08:30
      +1

      I had the same experience, I can drive a manual, but I didn't really wanted to. And they like, you have an auto but pay extra for the upgrade, it almost sounded like a scam.
      Then again I almost backed into a Ferrari in Swiss Alps, damn handbrake was a tiny bush paddle next to the clutch.

  • JimmyF on 25/06/2023 - 20:34
    -2

    Yes I can drive a manual but down currently own a manual car.

    Might want to fix that….. down?

  • snorbert on 25/06/2023 - 20:37
    +4

    I used to prefer manual, but that was when I lived out of town, did a lot of highway driving, and not that much creeping along in traffic.

    That said, the last time I drove a manual was a rental Peugot 4008, in France, on New Year's Day 2018. It was the last car left in that Normandy seaside town, after our original car booking fell through, and my partner and I needed to get to Paris that evening to fly back to AU. Was slightly surprised when I got in and my right hand found a manual gear shifter, but it ended up being less annoying than the mirrored turn and wiper stalks…

    Anyway, if I hadn't learned to drive a manual, we'd have been kind of stuffed.

    [Can report that French motorways were bonkers. First it's everyone driving at/above the speed limit, with minimal separation, then suddenly everyone hits their brakes and hazard blinkers, because the road is widened out into a huge snail's pace toll plaza with no marked lanes and every. car. having. to. stop. at. a. boom. gate. even. if. they. have. an. electronic. tag.]

  • jjjaar on 25/06/2023 - 20:37
    +5

    My parents had the same thought when I learned to drive 20 years ago. Ultimately I ended up only learning auto.

    I still think it’s a useful skill to have in those instances.

    I’m yet to have one of those instances.

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