Should our Higher Education system be more like America's?

SlavOz on 30/08/2022 - 10:38

America just cancelled a massive wave of student debt, essentially making college free for young students.

Australia seems to be going in the opposite direction. Not only do we still enforce uni debts, but prices have increased AND the government has implemented new laws around when and how they must be paid back. Eg - you can no longer go overseas and avoid the repayments. They follow you for life.

Should we do the same as 'Murica, or keep our existing pay-the-full-amount-yourself-on-layby scheme?

Poll Options

  • 559
    Keep our current system - students should pay their own way
  • 79
    America's is better - uni should be free
Education & Work

Comments

  • nedski on 30/08/2022 - 10:44
    +376

    My new default position is that we should do NOTHING to be more like America.

    • Nugs on 30/08/2022 - 10:51
      +4

      yup
      https://youtu.be/bdw1Pw4nIv0?t=21
      .

      • R4 on 01/09/2022 - 16:06

        What did I just watch…….

    • jv on 30/08/2022 - 10:55
      +2

      we should do NOTHING to be more like America.

      this ?

      • dtc on 30/08/2022 - 14:25
        +14

        Because the US constitution is never the source of any dispute or problems?

        • Scantu on 31/08/2022 - 16:41
          +4

          The times the us constitution is the source of a problem is when a popularly elected leader tries to undermine fundamental democratic values yeah sure. Good problem to have.

          • MrFunSocks on 01/09/2022 - 13:03
            +2

            @Scantu: You think their Second Amendment isn't a source of any dispute or problems other than "leaders trying to undermine fundamental democratic values"?

            • Scantu on 01/09/2022 - 13:17
              -1

              @MrFunSocks: you know the bulk of litigation about the USAs bill of rights doesn't revolve around 2A yeah? It's the one that gets the most sunlight in the media but fundamental rights in other amendments are the foundation of their society. Dismissing a bor because of your opinion on 2A is naive and frankly plays into this stupid "we don't need rights mate look at America" a lot of dumb arses in Aus have.

              • MrFunSocks on 01/09/2022 - 16:55
                +3

                @Scantu: I was simply responding to this:

                The times the us constitution is the source of a problem is when a popularly elected leader tries to undermine fundamental democratic values yeah sure

                The 2nd Amendment disputes and problems caused by it prove that poster wrong.

                • Scantu on 02/09/2022 - 10:48
                  -3

                  @MrFunSocks: I know exactly what you are responding to, and I explained why you were wrong about it, including this follow-up.

      • seraphim2017 on 30/08/2022 - 14:49
        +11

        I wonder if a bill of responsibilities would be supported as equally as a bill of rights? Or both maybe, a contract between people and the people chosen to govern.

        • srven3 on 31/08/2022 - 12:56

          depends on your definition of responsibilities
          I'm all for people taking individual responsibility for their lives

        • Scantu on 31/08/2022 - 16:41
          +2

          "bill of responsibilities" is not a thing.

          A bill of rights is a legal concept.

          "Responsibilities" is a social concept

          • Harold Halfprice on 31/08/2022 - 20:32
            +6

            @Scantu:

            "bill of responsibilities" is not a thing.

            Doesn't mean it can't be. A "bill of rights" wasn't a thing either, until it was.

            "Responsibilities" is a social concept

            Responsibilities and obligations can also be legally defined - such as the duty of care parents have to provide for their child's needs.

            • Scantu on 31/08/2022 - 21:23

              @Harold Halfprice: As a legal concept it isn't a thing and it doesn't make sense which is what I am saying.

              It's something someone would say because it "feels" nice as a counterpart to a "rights bill". But from a scholarly perspective it makes no sense at all.

              Founding documents like a constitution or BOR describe the relationship between a governing body and it's subjects. Not what the other thing would be about.

              And what would be the point of this endeavour? We codify responsibilities like you mentioned in legislation - once again because that's where it is appropriate.

          • seraphim2017 on 01/09/2022 - 07:15

            @Scantu: Law is also a social concept, at least in how humans apply it, is it not?

            We agree that there should be laws (unless you're mad, rich, or otherwise above the law) and that is a contract of acceptable behaviours.

            To say law is seperate from human social structure is surely a fallacy? Laws are not immutable or objectively true in the absence of influence by humans, we make them.

            I did not say there was a bill of civic responsibility to go with rights, just that it would be an interesting thought experiment. How many campaigning about their rights would fight as hard about their responsibilities.

            • Scantu on 01/09/2022 - 08:43

              @seraphim2017:

              Law is also a social concept, at least in how humans apply it, is it not?

              Only in the sense that anything a human does is a social construct. Western Law is a distinct and well defined area of knowledge.

              just that it would be an interesting thought experiment. How many campaigning about their rights would fight as hard about their responsibilities

              Kind of but not really for me, a bill of rights is very specifically a description of the relationship between the government and it's subjects, "rights" here refers to rules enforceable by the individual against the government, not objective "rights". It'd be like saying "let's also include what the price of vegetables should be", it just happens to sound more relevant because of the words.

              How many campaigning about their rights would fight as hard about their responsibilities

              And for the exact same reason - I wouldn't be. Because it's a totally different thing and your basic rights a major power can enforce on you vs your own social relationships is a very very different thing.

        • SlavOz on 01/09/2022 - 13:34

          I wonder if a bill of responsibilities would be supported as equally as a bill of rights?

          We already have that. It's called the law. It governs what citizens must do. Notably, the government is often exempt from it.

          We don't need an explicit bill of responsibilities because the people don't impose themselves onto the government. We do not force our views onto them or demand to have control over every part of the government's life. It's the other way around. Governments demands control of our lives and therefore should be limited in how they use that control.

          Why do we need this? Because the worst atrocities throughout history were not committed by people. They were committed by governments.

          The government has proven time and time again it cannot be trusted. This is why a bill of rights governing what they can do is needed.

      • ripesashimi on 31/08/2022 - 11:01
        +3

        before that, we need a bill of common sense that say rights and responsibilities are tied to each other.

        • Scantu on 31/08/2022 - 21:25
          +1

          This is a poor take not supported by any legal scholarly sources.

          A bill of rights describes a relationship between a government and it's subjects. There is no place for a "bill of responsibilities", you have suggested it because it "feels nice", which is a crap basis to make laws off.

          And also a crap constraint to Australian people actually getting some rights (and self respect).

      • srven3 on 31/08/2022 - 12:56
        -1

        wow, the far left and far right on here really don't like this nuanced comment

      • Scantu on 31/08/2022 - 16:40
        +1

        The Stockholm syndrome is so embedded that people will downvote simple rights for themselves lol

      • juki on 01/09/2022 - 14:53
        +1

        if thats what troubles you please look at european privacy rights, Americans is essentially right to sell the information we collected monitoring you

    • SydStrand on 31/08/2022 - 10:44
      +2

      There are some things that I think we can emulate, especially in drug decriminalisation, recreational, and EV tax incentives.

    • Lastchancetosee on 31/08/2022 - 10:54
      +8

      Yes, need to uncouple poll option to have no fees from being like USA. Their education system is a mess, with even more inequality than ours.

    • Scantu on 31/08/2022 - 21:27
      -4

      It's a nice meme but the reality is is that America is significantly more economically, legally, politically complex than Australia and basically any other country is… Easy to point at a selective view of a country with well over 10 times the population and go "hey some stuff is bad there look!".

      It's the equivalent of a homeless person banging on a tin and saying "YOUR DOOR IS 2CM TO THE LEFT" to someone with a house

    • Meconium on 01/09/2022 - 13:39

      Except become a republic

    • supersabroso on 01/09/2022 - 21:21
      +2

      Agreed, since when have American uni fees been free or better than Australia's? They are way more expensive. Furthermore, all Australians can go to university for free. You don't need to pay back one cent unless you earn over the threshold, by then you already have your free degree and the better job that it comes with so you can afford it. Excellent system that lets everyone have a go and only pay it off if you end up doing well enough to do so. Zero pressure.

    • buckster on 02/09/2022 - 07:50
      +1

      Our system isn't even pay the whole amount on laybuy anyway, so the whole premise is wrong.

      But some people never let facts get in the way of the agenda they've been tasked to push

    • iDroid on 02/09/2022 - 20:53

      Listen to this poster.

      They know their stuff.

  • hamza23 on 30/08/2022 - 10:44
    +220

    Cancelling US$10k of student debt, as a one off, to those earning under $125K, doesn't make college 'essentially free'. In most cases that doesn't even cover 1 year of fees.

    According to College Board, published tuition fees for 2018/19 at state colleges are an average of US$10,230 for state residents, and $26,290 for everyone else. This compares to an average of $35,830 at private non-profit colleges.

    and

    Average Student Loan Debt in The United States. The average college debt among student loan borrowers in America is US$32,731, according to the Federal Reserve.

    • spackbace on 30/08/2022 - 11:25
      +79

      Shhh, don't bring facts into a SlavOz post

    • boomramada on 30/08/2022 - 11:36
      +3

      where those $10K coming from? US health care?;)

      • Chong on 31/08/2022 - 10:27
        +1

        can't squeeze blood from a stone! ;)

        • pformag on 31/08/2022 - 17:03

          pfizer can

        • buckster on 02/09/2022 - 07:55
          +1

          Hey He's called the ROCK and he does donate blood! Fake newz

      • smartazz104 on 31/08/2022 - 11:29

        Not military that's for sure.

      • R4 on 01/09/2022 - 16:07

        Borrowed from China.

    • sarahlump on 01/09/2022 - 00:13

      Community college, or local universities are $4500 per year, cheaper than australian universities for the same quality of education just without all the fancy shiny marketing.

    • AlanHB on 02/09/2022 - 09:55
      +3

      Came here to post this - OP obviously knows nothing about the USA university/ college system. Calling it "free" is ridiculous.

  • Crow K on 30/08/2022 - 10:46
    +71

    Up to $10,000 debt per person cancelled for free was the announcement. Doesn't sound like it's "making college free for young students" to me.

    Then again, I'm expecting something in good faith/truthful as a part of a SlavOz discussion, so that one is admittedly on me. I mean, look at the wording of those poll options.. I feel like the Daily Telegraph is missing an online content creator.

    That aside, no, we shouldn't. Our systems aren't comparable anyway (look at their total costs versus ours).

    • Chandler on 01/09/2022 - 11:18

      look at the wording of those poll options.

      For Slav those poll options (hell the entire post) is pretty good - nothing inflamatory and reasonably unbiased. Not sure if they're not as opinionated on this particular topic or they're trying to be less biased, but it's a positive in either case.

      • Crow K on 01/09/2022 - 11:24
        +2

        I feel like giving him a sticker for "you didn't punch down on [marginalised group]" is sending out the wrong message. The standard we want is good faith engagement. (Of course, this might be naively supposing SlavOz is capable of it).

        The fact one of the two options is based on a false premise ("America's is better - uni should be free") is still in the "Needs work" territory for me.

  • jv on 30/08/2022 - 10:52
    +4

    No

    • iDroid on 02/09/2022 - 20:54

      To double down on that NO.

      Note - US is giving a $10k relief to students with loans. Their loans are typically much more than $10k, so no, there is no free education being flung around.

  • iNeed2Pee on 30/08/2022 - 10:55
    +15

    I would love my HECS to be paid off. (will never happen lol)
    Instead, I entered a profession where the majority of workers who were already in it, got paid to go to university.

    and they still complain…even with their 5 investment properties and their bayside address.

    Then they wonder why retention is crap in my job? 😂😂😂

    • [Deactivated] on 30/08/2022 - 11:25
      +2

      got paid to go to university.

      Who paid them to go to uni?

      • Donaldhump on 30/08/2022 - 11:39
        -4

        just made up b.s.

        • iNeed2Pee on 30/08/2022 - 12:09
          +7

          (I mean it could be made up from those who told me)
          In the 1980s, some universities paid students to undertake a tertiary degree in teaching.

          I have heard this from many teachers, in different schools.
          These same teachers also did not have to pay any amount whatsoever to undertake these studies. Basically starting in the black.

          • Masterpupil on 30/08/2022 - 16:50
            +13

            @iNeed2Pee: This is true. My father go his teaching degree from Monash this way for nothing and was paid to go to university.
            However he only has 3 investment properties.

            • Jackson on 30/08/2022 - 23:38

              @Masterpupil: That's cos his only a lowly teacher, they aren't paid enough, clearly. The first guy that got paid to go to uni that comes to mind for me got an engineering degree and while I don't know how many investment properties he has, he lives in a big property

          • spackbace on 30/08/2022 - 17:43

            @iNeed2Pee: I know when I went through school that they were offering to cover your HECS debt as you worked in teaching ie first year teaching = 1st year HECS paid off etc. That was this century :P

          • Mr Haj on 31/08/2022 - 08:29
            +1

            @iNeed2Pee: Teachers used to have crazy good retirement payouts too, for those that were on defined benefits.

            • grr1701 on 01/09/2022 - 07:59

              @Mr Haj: Yep, the Qld Government at the time, in 1991/2, encouraged all employees out of Defined Benefits by offering a larger lump sum to change to the new scheme. About 15% stayed in Defined Benefits and are quite comfortable now. The rest have to manage their “larger lump sum” to maintain their balance effectively. Shares aren’t doing well lately…

          • Lastchancetosee on 31/08/2022 - 10:57

            @iNeed2Pee: There were some constraints around the loan, such as having ti go to rural or other schools and stay in the profession for a certain period of time. I think it was five years, but don't quote me.

          • grr1701 on 01/09/2022 - 07:53

            @iNeed2Pee: It was free University education back then thanks to Gough. But you had to compete for a scholarship (in Qld) to get paid to attend. I think mine was about $25/fortnight. BUT, then you were bound to work for whomever gave you the scholarship for the number of years of the scholarship plus one year. That’s how Education Queensland “encouraged” young teachers to teach out west. My daughter now has a HECS debt which INCREASED from last financial year to this one, having paid off thousands of dollars during the year. Had she known that was going to happen, she wouldn’t have bothered with a Physio degree at Uni. Apprentices get paid to complete their courses and they don’t have a HECS debt at the end.

            • Mr Haj on 01/09/2022 - 09:25
              +2

              @grr1701:

              Apprentices get paid to complete their courses and they don’t have a HECS debt at the end.

              This is the argument I make to my mate who complains about the wage he was on as an apprentice sparky. He was fully qualified at 21 and now he earns as much as I do. Despite being 4 years younger than me, he has been mastering his craft for 9 years; I've been learning my job for only 5 years.

    • Ghost47 on 31/08/2022 - 23:53

      The Greens actually said before the last election if they won balance of power they would work to wipe student debt. Not holding my breath though haha.

      • Chong on 02/09/2022 - 09:20
        +1

        The Greens say a lot, but they know they wont win majority to pass fiscally impossible things, i never seen any convincing proposal to show how this will be funded.

        i do think certain profession the govt should contribute an annual amount if they are working in that field to help pay it off say over 10 years. Rather than make the degrees free, let the individual take the HECS but pay it off for them over 10 years.

        This would fix staff shortages more effectively IMO

        • Tleyx on 02/09/2022 - 14:31

          How would you decide working in that field?

          • Chong on 02/09/2022 - 15:50

            @Tleyx: ATO and state govt would have the details… most of the shortages are in industries the state or federal govt already has high reporting requirements…

            • Tleyx on 02/09/2022 - 18:34

              @Chong: I mean field. Is a law degree ok if they work for a bank in corporate law rather than as a prosecution. Its a nightmare to have what included or not.

              And also if your industry had shortages when you started your course that doesnt mean it will ten years later when people have moved into that industry, where is cutoff.

              Policy nightmare

              • Chong on 04/09/2022 - 01:11

                @Tleyx: Ahh i see, yes but no policy is perfect…

                I think certain things like paramedics, nursing, secondary/high school teacher generally poorly paid for the work and thus have high churn, hence ongoing shortages, these industries are crucial and also state supported/funded directly or indirectly, so data should be readily available for state and federal govt.

                certainly not suggesting every field with any kind of shortage should have some form of govt incentive, just the crucial ones for healthcare and education.

                • Tleyx on 04/09/2022 - 12:04

                  @Chong: Even education. If i work as a corporate trainer do i get it, or does it have to be at a school? If i am the accountant at the school do I get it, or does it have to be teacher.

                  Its just a nightmare to administer, what government saves in hecs fees they would pay to administer it, plus you would piss a lot of people off who fell just outside the rules

                  Just impracticle

                  • Chong on 05/09/2022 - 02:40

                    @Tleyx: i think shortage is in secondary school teachers, plenty of existing programs to address other shortages with grants to hire more apprentices where there are shortage and free tafe programs.

                    what will your alternative solution be?

                    • Tleyx on 05/09/2022 - 08:05

                      @Chong: I would use the money saved administer ing your system by paying teachers more. They can use that money to pay for their hecs if they want

                      • Chong on 05/09/2022 - 23:32

                        @Tleyx: i think the scale of funds required to increase teachers' pay by a meaningful percentage/amount across the board, would greatly outstrip the funds required to fund any program for more new teachers.

  • MS Paint on 30/08/2022 - 10:55
    +36

    essentially making college free for young students.

    That's not correct

    • ozbjunkie on 31/08/2022 - 09:59
      +6

      Neither is the idea we pay the entire fee here on lay-by …

      HECS is around 20 or 25% the "cost" of a degree with the government paying the rest. Ballpark figures of course but accurate early this century).

      • Ponsonby on 31/08/2022 - 12:15
        +7

        This. Unless you are on a 'full fee place" (mostly overseas students) rather than the normal "Commonwealth Supported Place", the Australian taxpayer subsidises you for the majority of your degree costs and you might get a living allowance as well. Your contribution to your degree costs is to pay back over time a very soft loan (at zero real interest rate) for your share of tuition fees and even then you only pay it back when you earn enough. You never have to pay back any living allowance the taxpayer gives you. If you go surfing after graduation or end up working in a lower paid job, you pay nothing until you get a job that pays enough for the repayments to kick in. Some might say that taxpayers are being pretty generous to uni students with this arrangement.

  • barge-in hunter on 30/08/2022 - 10:56
    +5

    I dont' understand the logic behind these options - they feel counterintuitive. :shrugs:

    • Quantumcat on 30/08/2022 - 11:25
      +13

      Have you not seen a SlavOz poll before?

      • barge-in hunter on 30/08/2022 - 11:29
        +5

        Unfortunately, a few too many times.

        I just like highlighting misinformation without feeding the cycle

  • Drakesy on 30/08/2022 - 11:14
    +31
    1. They're forgiving $10,000 not the entire loan
    2. American College fees are something like 4-5X what ours are (Commonwealth supported)
    3. Students should have to pay back their debts no matter where they go, admittedly it is frustrating when the people forcing students to payback debt had zero debt when they went through free university.
    4. Both our health and education systems are better for the little guy. America is structured in such a way that if you're rich you can have a leg up. If you're not, you're sh1t out of luck. Democrats are a blessing in disguise to the have nots in America.
    5. Admittedly in Australia i'd like free education, knowing now that the government would have recouped my education costs in additional tax from elevated income. To have people running the country saying students have never had it easier is completely tone deaf. Mr Joe Hockey looking at you. (Having said that if you're just wasting time by being a perennial uni student doing courses that will not contribute to getting a job then you should have to pay.)
    • Jackson on 30/08/2022 - 23:39
      +3

      Yeah I couldn't even vote for these reasons, both options are duds

    • 900dollaridoos on 31/08/2022 - 06:20
      +2

      Are they really that much more expensive?
      When I did my degree I remember comparing the costs to a similarly ranked university in the US and found it almost identically priced.
      The only way it went up to the huge 6 figure sums we hear of was if it was bundled with food, housing, and a spending allowance all within the same loan, which is super common over there and encouraged in the fee schedules I was looking at. They also have huge cost incentive to keep students within their states rather than chasing IV etc.
      If I'd put all 4 years worth of spending on my hecs instead of working my loan would have taken ages to pay off too

      • SydStrand on 31/08/2022 - 22:50

        Full fee courses are comparable (but still cheaper) to US degrees. For CSP, it's no contest. My postgraduate tuition was $14-16k annually vs $60-70k in the states. Other hard science courses are anecdotally similar, but ymmv for humanities, arts, economics, etc.

  • apple2016 on 30/08/2022 - 11:16
    +22

    it should be more like the Germany / Denmark. essentially its free or you get paid to study

    • Donaldhump on 30/08/2022 - 11:38

      better raise the tax brackets then

      • apple2016 on 30/08/2022 - 16:50
        +15

        Honestly I dont mind higher taxes if health care, education, public transport is free.

        • boomramada on 30/08/2022 - 17:35
          -6

          Not everyone need those services, better as it is.

          • macrocephalic on 31/08/2022 - 09:17
            +12

            @boomramada: But it's better for the country as a whole if everyone has access to those things (i.e. free).

            • skidexa on 31/08/2022 - 13:00
              +2

              @macrocephalic: Unfortunately these people just care about themselves, until they need it of course

            • garddn on 31/08/2022 - 22:02

              @macrocephalic: Nothing is free, and I do not want to pay more,
              Paying for things i do not use is not a bargain! this is ozbargain!

        • liongalahad on 31/08/2022 - 02:29
          +2

          Agreed. Higher taxes are okay if you get a lot more services back, and if things like healthcare and education can be obtained independently on how much money you or your family has.

    • brendanm on 30/08/2022 - 16:51
      +1

      That would be great, then we'd have a tonne of debt, and a bunch of people with useless degrees.

      • spackbace on 30/08/2022 - 17:44

        Arts degrees?

        • brendanm on 30/08/2022 - 19:09
          +10

          There is probably a list as long as my arm. I don't care if people want to do them, they may want to do a degree in Mongolian basket weaving, I simply don't want to pay for it. Happy to subsidise things we actually need, and have a shortage of, doctors, surgeons, teachers, scientists etc. People that are an asset to the community as a whole

          Plenty of people doing uber etc because their degrees are garbage, why should the taxpayer subsidise this?

  • tsunamisurfer on 30/08/2022 - 11:20
    -8

    The HECS repayment threshold should be reduced.

    I am OK with HECS being indexed for existing loans but with 2 major changes.

    1) The government is a secured creditor on the HECS borrowers' estate.
    2) The government has the right to on sell the HECS debt to an agency.

    We cannot have HECS going unpaid.

    • happydude on 30/08/2022 - 12:30
      +14

      The threshold is $48,361. Most people without a degree make more than that.

      1) No, I cannot imagine the heartbreak of a young doctor dying with a young family. Then they being left with next to nothing due to a $110k HECS debt. It would not be in the public interest to recover it. A secured creditor would also mean that the government is paid first. That could mean that other creditors could be left with cents on the dollar or nothing.

      2) Absolutely not. You privatise it we will go the way of America.

      I do however think that a couple where one or both partners have a debt they shouldn't be able to avoid making repayments on the basis they are a 1 income family. The "bread winning" partner should have to contribute to the non-working partners debt.

      HECs exists because as a society we are better when educated.

    • OhmyRyzen on 31/08/2022 - 02:17

      We don't, because it is called HELP. ;)

  • JimmyF on 30/08/2022 - 11:27
    +8

    America just cancelled a massive wave of student debt, essentially making college free for young students.

    No they didn't. They cancelled upto $10k in debt….. ONCE OFF!

    How much does Uni cost in America though? The average for a PUBLIC college is around $10k a year….. So most come out with around $40-50k in debt and double that if they lived away and rolled rent/board into the debt.

    If they went to a private college, its around $30-40k a year in fees.

  • Shadowsfury on 30/08/2022 - 11:30
    -2

    Don't think education should be free - subsidised sure

    People don't appreciate free things and abuse the system when free.

    • pegaxs on 30/08/2022 - 11:32
      +20

      Yeah… damn kids going to school and learning… Damn those pesky learners, always getting up to learning, abusing the system and learning. Shame on them for learning. It's a disgrace for them to abuse free education.

      • SpainKing on 31/08/2022 - 13:11

        My concern would be that having everyone with a degree would make the degree a baseline expectation. People incapable of completing a meaningful degree would have a harder time getting jobs and those with degrees would have a harder time as they're competing with so many equally qualified (on paper) candidates.

        This could lead to Australia being the skills capital of the world and outsourcing our labour to other countries where getting hired is easier and the pay is higher (relative to costs)

        Then we spread worldwide, making every continent embrace Vegemite, thong wearing and the "yeah nah" response

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