Obligatory MS Paint Diagram: https://i.imgur.com/WMQWFGH.png
B did not stop at the stop sign. But A has no dashcam footage. Can OzBargain advise who is at fault?
NSW - Who Is at Fault?
Comments
So weird
There's some intersections a few suburbs from me where all four directions have stop signs…so confusing.
You treat it exactly the same way as a roundabout although you have to come to a complete halt. First to arrive has right of way, give way to the car on your right. Only difference is two cars facing each other can both go at once if they're going straight (otherwise the car turning gives way).
They're everywhere in Canada, confused me when I first moved there but you get used to them pretty quickly. The hardest part in Australia is no one knows how they're meant to work thus do it wrong.
There is no such rule as right of way, nor is there is there a rule such as give way to the right.
On roundabouts you should give way to anyone already on the roundabout. So it's first on best dressed.
@SgtBatten: You're being a wee bit pedantic, don't you think? There's no rule that says first in best dressed either, but saying that or "first driver has right of way" is much easier than saying "the second vehicle has to give way to the first vehicle".
And you have to give way to the right at a four way stop, according to NSW Road Safety, if both vehicles arrive at the same time.
@freefall101: Maybe pedantic but ‘right of way’ doss not appear in traffic legislation and is an old concept that does not promote driving defensively.
‘Give way to the right’ is also no longer a rule, and despite your link that’s not a reference to legislation, just a journalistic interpretation. In reality when two cars approach a 4way stop sign the drivers work it out themselves, generally by who got there first. After all it’s not like when you do actually go that you shut your eyes and plant your foot. One car will start to go and the other will wait, or If both cars go, one will stop again.
Is this ideal? No. Is a 4 way stop sign a great intersection? No. But a 4 way stop is the most appropriate when visibility is low, you want cars to slow down and a roundabout won’t fit. After all, they are typically only on residential streets, not main roads.
@Euphemistic: It’s absolutely still a rule - http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_reg/rr2014104…
@freefall101: That rule only applies if there are no traffic lights, stop signs etc - an unmarked intersection.
But then we’re not trusted with this type of intersection, there’s hardly any left that don’t have any markings or signs.
@Euphemistic: Source? Because you keep changing your explanations depending on what I say. Seems like you’re more interested in being right than factually correct.
@freefall101: The rule you link literally says:
A driver at an intersection (except a T-intersection or roundabout) without traffic lights or a stop sign, stop line, give way sign or give way line, must give way in accordance with this rule.
@Euphemistic: No, that it doesn’t apply on a 4 way stop. Because you gave a long explanation on four way stops based on their being no such a thing as giving way to the right.
@freefall101: My apologies. There is a ‘give way to the right’ rule, one that you linked. The rule you linked doesn’t apply when stop signs are present.
Plenty of people don't even know how a roundabout works in Australia, so this would confuse the shit out of them.
These are all over the place in the US and they work remarkably well and are very intuitive and simple to use.
Maybe I'm just not used to them. It's like when traffic lights are flashing yellow and everyone is trying to work out who goes first…
That's something that's always surprised me.. I've seen fights started for less than the 'I was here first' you get at those intersections
whereas roundabouts don't work so well in the US..
Yeah, Canada is full of them. Had to find out how they work pretty quick. Whomever gets to the stop sign first has right of way apparently not matter the direction.
Canadians are certainly better at them then they are at roundabouts which are apparently new to them. They seem to think only one car is allowed on a roundabout at once, completely defeating the efficiency of roundabouts for traffic movement.
where are you John? I have some in my town. I would have thought it'd be B at fault cos gone thru a stop sign! I hate it…not clear or necessary. Just have 2 stop signs or 2 give ways
Sydney
@John Kimble: So it's in NSW and Vic. I'm in a small country town in Vic so never really a drama! Def not in WA
This is likely to be imaginary. Do you have an actual street we can look at Google map @pollambo?
Asking for a “friend”?
Most importantly, do they have insurance?
Yes they are with H & R insurance.
Hit and Run.
Adhered to road rules or not, if only Car A applied some common sense. Wouldn’t be in this situation…
True, also depends how fast car B (OP) was going when they blew past the stop line.
I'm curious to see the google streetview of the intersection.
Car A would need to give way to car B since it's turning in front of car B I think…
Regardless, stop signs do not have to 'give way' the same way a 'give way' sign dictates you must give way. So even if the car B behind the stop sign is turning right, car A technically has to yield to car B because of the 'give way' sign.
I think that discussion has been had before. The outcome was that neither stop sign or giveaway has any ‘seniority’. In it going to go trawling to find the actual reference though.
A stop sign is basically the same as a give way - provided you’ve stopped before proceeding.
Under normal circumstances, the give way would appear to go first when both cars arrive at the same time. Once the stop sign vehicle has stopped normal give way rules would apply. In this case, the car turning across the path shakily give way to the car going straight through.
Actually you're probably right, I'm not sure where I read what I said it was probably only for a certain state. But in NSW both are give ways.
A stop sign is just a give way sign+forced pause. Neither has priority.
https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety/rules/road/give-way
Explains it quite nicely. It would be the same in other states.
Dead simple, a give way sign means give way.
If you go through a give way sign and hit another car you did not give way… easy
No it's not, it all depends on whether Car B came to a complete stop on the line or not and who entered the intersection first.
If A entered first then Car B is completely at fault because they are not meant to cross a stop line if there are any cars that will be in its path. If B entered first then A should have had enough time to stop the car even if B missed the stop sign.
Please show me the rule that says who gets to a intersection first does not have to give way.
how is car A suppose to know what is written on the opposite sign
Gee, I wonder what that solid white line on the road means.
@MS Paint: so if you are looking at the back of a sign, you would rely on car B to stop purely based on the shape of it?
@windrc: Yes. Why not? I would assume they have a licence and know the road rules.
If we never made assumptions on the road the network would be in grid lock.
Good defensive driving is what keeps the system moving*
*Unfortunately not all drivers know the rules or drive defensively - that is why this forum exists.
Turning across traffic always gives way
I don't think we need to bring the distinction of a complete stop into this. Unless they went through at full speed driver of car A is an idiot for pulling out infront of them. It should be pretty clear from the amount of damage whether the problem was car B going to fast for A to see the when they started turning out of A is an idiot for turning infront of another car.
Stop sign means stop and give way
OP are you car A trying to blame car B for an accident today?
MS Paint diagram is top notch though. Hope you have insurance!
Without the dashcam footage, it all comes down to if A hit B or if B hit A. If it's an equal head on collision then B is at fault as they had a stop sign so there's no way that A made it all the way around to B if B followed the rules and came to a complete stop on the line. That is unless A was hooliganing the turn at 60km/hr in which case there would be skid marks.
Basically, the moral of this car crash story and 50,000 others is to go buy a $100 dash cam.
No mention of who arrived at the stop or give way first. A should have given way as they did not know B had a stop sign and even if they did then they made a wrong assumption that B knew the intersection.
For a definitive answer ask a highway patrol cop, not a normal cop.
There should be a solid painted line on the road indicating a stop, and the telltale shape of the back of a stop sign which no other sign shares.
I agree this is a murky one, but it's exacerbated by people not bloody stopping at stop signs, I still falsely assume everyone will only to be disappointed.
IMO, it doesn’t matter if Car B ran the stop sign or not. Car A should have given way.
If there was some sort of dash cam footage that proved Car A was already in the intersection when Car B ran the stop sign, it is likely that insurance would side with a majority for Car A. However without this it would be difficult to argue. Basically it becomes A said B said and in that case A not giving way is an automatic loss I reckon.
Wait what? You have to give way to someone who might run a stop sign? Does the same apply for red lights?
If you want to avoid an accident, then probably a good idea…
I dunno about you but I'm not often checking the road signs in the opposite direction of where I'm going to try and figure out the behaviour of cars in the opposite direction.
I would just assume they didn't have a stop sign and would give way. Don't think it ever makes sense for car A to hit car B in this scenario.
If the signs were swapped and both cars were stopped, the car behind the give way, even if going straight, must give way to the car behind the stop sign. Thus, a give way sign is always LAST in priority.
I am in Car B. I didn't see the stop sign. Yes I have insurance.
B did not stop at the stop sign
I am in Car B. I didn't see the stop sign.🤦♂️
Did car a not signal and you expected them to go straight
So despite the big red sign and the solid line on the floor indicating it's a stop sign, you failed to stop?
Depending where in NSW over the last couple of days, visibility could have been really poor with the rain.
Gee, I wonder what that big red sign is then. If you can't see red stop signs in the rain, perhaps you should see the optometrist.
Even though A is still required to give-way to you, since you failed to stop at the sign you'll likely get contributory negligence from your insurer.
Back to driving lessons.
It's a stop sign. Not a in case you didn't see it sign.
Surely this scenario doesn’t exist IRL
It does, my work has a similar intersection. I'm usually car A and I always expect car B to stop at the stop line so I never wait for car B. One time they rolled right through and we almost had a car accident, we both stopped in time. Car B is definitely at fault for not stopping at the stop sign for 3 seconds.
You may want to check the road rules. Car B has right of way through the intersection. There is legal requirement to stop for "3 seconds". If you're car A and you're turning right without giving way, you are 100% in the wrong.
There is no right of way in traffic law, nor is there any ‘3 second’ rule.
@Euphemistic: Of course there is right of way. https://www.nsw.gov.au/driving-boating-and-transport/roads-s… specifically talks about who has "right of way". Whether that exact phrase is used or not in the law isn't relevant - the concept still exists.
As for the 3 seconds, yes, fool is me - I means to type "There is NO legal requirement…" (in response to the previous post which claimed there was) but obviously forgot the most critical word…
Of course there is right of way. https://www.nsw.gov.au/driving-boating-and-transport/roads-s… specifically talks about who has "right of way". Whether that exact phrase is used or not in the law isn't relevant - the concept still exists.
Maybe some of the non-legal guides mention it, but within the legislation there is no such concept. Yes, it’s just semantics but it’s an important distinction that no one has the ‘right’ to continue without giving way in any situation. At some point they must do what they can to avoid a crash - they must give way.
It’s an important distinction that changes the mindset of drivers to increase safety.
@Euphemistic: The opposite does hold true though, the car behind the give way sign must give way to any and all traffic, including those behind a stop sign as they do not have to give way.
3 second rule is a myth
Edit: Saw correction later
Why do people who have no clue what they are talking about always chime in with their completely made up rules?
If you don't know the law, then why come in here and spout nonsense. You know just not commenting is an option, right?
""Why do people who have no clue what they are talking about always chime in with their completely made up rules?""
Yes yes yes you got that right you cannot make up your own rules.
Some people should be retested by a really brutal inspector/test bloke and grilled thoroughly on road rules
Because we're all lawyers by day and traffic enforecement officers by night, dammit!
What if car b was turning right
End of day car a hit a car turning.
You should have enough time to stop
Stop sign is upside down :(
POTS?
It'll be a he said she said.
A will say B did not stop.
B will say A didn't give way.
Probably split damages.
You can find your scenario here (not the diagrams though)
https://www.nsw.gov.au/driving-boating-and-transport/roads-s…
The stop sign meant you had to come to a stop before proceeding. If the other driver says you drove straight through you may have a bad time.
That's a good link, it clearly shows that the person at fault is the person that entered the intersection second. Regardless of a stop sign or give way sign, the car is meant to give way to all cars full stop unless it meets those specific exemption rules.
The exemption rules specify that it's only to ignore cars that are stopped at a stop/give way line and turning right. So once the car passes the line and you haven't, then you're at fault for entering the intersection second and causing an accident.
OP needs to provide information on who entered the intersection second, they are at fault for the accident.
As you said, "The exemption rules specify that it's only to ignore cars that are stopped at a stop/give way line and turning right" which is the exact situation here…
More likely to be B here, who probably did not see Stop sign.
The reason is it takes longer for A to reach that accident point.
The exemption rules specify that it's only to ignore cars that are stopped at a stop/give way line and turning right. So once the car passes the line and you haven't, then you're at fault for entering the intersection second and causing an accident.
You're still turning once you've passed the give-way line. Your interpretation is wrong
No you missed the point, the car turning right is no longer stopped.
the car turning right is no longer stopped.
Completely irrelevant, show me were the rules say you don't have to give way at an intersection if you already stopped.
Straight from the link above (emphasis mine)
When you stop at a ‘Stop’ sign or ‘Stop’ line, you must give way to vehicles driving in, entering or approaching the intersection except for … an oncoming vehicle that’s at a ‘Give way’ sign or line and is turning right
@sheamas88: Exactly!!! Thank you for that quote.
So Car B Must stop and by that time Car A is no longer at the Give way sign so that exception doesn't; hold true.
Car A already entered the intersection where the collision occurred which B should of given way to if he had stopped.You missed some of the rule you posted.. The part about
driving in, entering or approaching the intersection
Car A had already entered intersection when the collision occured.@Roary: Note: the exact nature of the collision hasn’t been revealed other than ‘blew the stop sign’
However, this sounds plausible
@Roary: You still haven't shown me the rule, I daresay it doesn't exist
So Car B Must stop and by that time Car A is no longer at the Give way sign so that exception doesn't; hold true.
Straight from the rules for a give-way sign, When you’re at a ‘Give way’ sign or ‘Give way’ line, you must give way to vehicles driving in, entering or approaching the intersection except for ….
None of the exception apply here, Car B would have been approaching the intersection when car A was at the sign, unless car B was going at some ungodly speed. So car A was clearly required to give way.
Car A had already entered intersection when the collision occured.
No duh, how would the collision occurred if they weren't in the intersection? If car A didn't enter the intersection or had cleared the intersection then car B wouldn't have hit them.
@sheamas88: You still dont get it..
Car B is supposed to stop. therefore until it has stopped Car A can enter the intersection as there is nothing to give way to.
If Car B has stopped at the intersection then yes Car A must give way. but B never stopped at the intersection. Car A would of entered the intersection thinking CAR B will follow the rules and stop.therefore until it has stopped Car A can enter the intersection as there is nothing to give way to.
Show me the law that says that. Every time you make a claim you don't quote any actual rules, just pull it out of thin air.
I showed you the rule that says car A must give way to cars approaching the intersection, it doesn't say only to cars at the intersection.
CAR B will follow the rules and stop.
No one is arguing car B was supposed to stop, the question is whether car A was still required to give way, which they were.
Anyway you don't actually know what you're talking about, you don't quote the rules you are just making it up as you go along. I won't be responding further.
car A must give way to cars approaching the intersection
What you are missing is that the road rules only relate to vehicles acting legally.
The rules don't go on and detail 1000 different scenarios of who gives way when the other car is doing something totally unexpected and illegal because that would be pointless and silly. In all those cases that other car is always at fault.
So no, you are not expected to give way to a car 'approaching the intersection' on the wrong side of the road, in the middle of a handbrake slide, at 130kmph. (or a car blowing through a stop sign)
What you are missing is that the road rules only relate to vehicles acting legally.
yeah… gunna need a source on that one. I suspect you and Roary have the same methodology, which is to pull "facts" out of thin air.
In all those cases that other car is always at fault.
Nope, one party acting illegally does not absolve the other party of all responsibility. If both parties contributed to the accident then it's called contributory negligence. The insurance companies, or the court system would determine a percentage base of each parties contribution to the accident and split costs based on that percentage. No one here would be able to determine what percentage each party is at fault, but to say that car A has 0% responsibility is very unlikely. It's possible based on the percentage car A contributed and the total cost of both repairs that car A may not actually owe car B any money, but they will still (very likely) hold some responsibility.
https://www.lawaccess.nsw.gov.au/Pages/representing/lawassis…
I'm in the small group that said car B is at fault mainly due to not stopping at a stop sign. The key thing is we do not have enough information. If car A was already stopped at the intersection he's allowed to proceed as car B is required to come to a complete stop. If they arrived at the same time it's car A at fault but OP hasn't un/conveniently not included that info.
One of my pet peeves is that cars second and third in line often do not come to complete stops after the first car proceeds past the stop sign.
My pet peeve is just the not stopping at any time really. I won't sit here and say I've never ever rolled through a stop, but I always am slowing with the intention to stop, stop the vast majority of the time, and if anyone in vehicles, and I mean anyone, is around and can see me, I stop completely as it's what they're expecting.
Remember, above all, drive predictably.
Yeah, the 100% dead stop is a bit annoying in some situations. I'm in the same boat.
Remember, above all, drive predictably.
Wholeheartedly agree and assume people are idiots.
what an odd street