Obligatory MS Paint Diagram: https://i.imgur.com/WMQWFGH.png
B did not stop at the stop sign. But A has no dashcam footage. Can OzBargain advise who is at fault?
NSW - Who Is at Fault?
Comments
The stop sign is relevant, because if it had been followed it would have created a delay for car B. Car A could claim there was plenty of time for them to proceed through the intersection IF car B had slowed, come to a full stop, and then proceeded through the intersection, and thus there was no need for them to give way to car B. Even if this was only a 40km/h speed limit, the time taken for B to slow, stop, and then start again would be at least several seconds - more than enough time for A to safely proceed through the intersection.
Does that make car B 100% at fault? Maybe, maybe not - but they bear at least some of the fault.
100%. I'm a bit surprised by the vote distribution. Guess ozbargainers don't like to stop at stop signs.
I'm wondering how fast OP was going as they admitted they didn't see the stop sign. I'd guess 40km/h min maybe 50 or 60km/h.
I think the vote would look very different with options for both and more information.
A is at fault, you get done for not stopping at a stop sign.
A is at a give way sign.
Yes, and?
@John Kimble: No A didnt break any rules. B is supposed to stop which means A should not need to give way to any traffic.
B is 100% wrong.
@Roary: The Stop sign is to stop and give way to people on the cross-road, the guy turning across his path needs to give way to him…
Yep, the stop-sign-runner has done the wrong thig but the guy turning in front of him is at fault….
@FLICKIT: Car A did not need to stop (it’s a give way).
If car A thought they could enter the intersection before B had stopped and started again, they were legally correct in doing so. Unfortunately they failed defensive driving 101 by assuming B would actually stop.
@Euphemistic: Exactly, but I wouldn't say they failed defensive driving 101. Not sure what people do in your area but here 99.9% of time people stop at stop signs.
Are you saying you should stop at a green arrow turning right incase oncoming traffic doesnt stop at their red light?Yes to confirm I am assuming the car turning right can commence the turn before the car at the stop sign reaches the stop sign. If they are to arrive at their traffic markers the same time then it would be obvious that the car at the stop sign wasn't stopping (if an accident was to ensure) and therefore the car turning right would not be so stupid to turn into obvious traffic.
Are you saying you should stop at a green arrow turning right incase oncoming traffic doesnt stop at their red light?
No, but it’s prudent to wait until cars appear to be slowing enough that they can stop.
The basics of defensive driving are to assume everyone will not obey the rules and don’t do anything that will put you in a potential crash position until they show signs of actually doing what they should.
I have a roundabout near home where I turn right. There are two lanes of traffic that I need to cross and most of the time vehicles look like they aren’t going to giveway to me on the roundabout. I always cover the brake despite never having someone not stop.
@FLICKIT: If the guy turning in front entered the intersection before the car arrived at the stop sign, that means the car at the stop sign needs to give way.
If they arrived at their respective signs at the same time then it’s a different story. OP needs to tell us where the impact was on each vehicle
that means the car at the stop sign needs to give way
Can you supply a link to where this is stated?
@FLICKIT: https://www.nsw.gov.au/driving-boating-and-transport/roads-s…
When you stop at a ‘Stop’ sign or ‘Stop’ line, you must give way to vehicles driving in, entering or approaching the intersection except for:
- an oncoming vehicle that’s also at a ‘Stop’ sign or line and is turning right
- an oncoming vehicle that’s at a ‘Give way’ sign or line and is turning right
- a vehicle turning left using a slip lane
- a vehicle making a U-turn.
When you’re turning left or right at a ‘Stop’ sign or line, you must also give way to pedestrians crossing the road that you’re turning into.
except for:
an oncoming vehicle that’s at a ‘Give way’ sign or line and is turning right@FLICKIT: Exactly. Thats why it depends where the impact was.
If car B was 10 metres from the stop sign, car A entered the intersection after giving way to vehicles driving in or entering an intersection and commenced the turn. That means car A is in the intersection when car b arrives at the stop sign. Car b must give way to vehicles in the intersection. Except car b didn’t.
Though again it really depends where the hit happened (if there are no witnesses to the failure to stop)
The specific scenario you quoted is only when both vehicles are at their respective signs at same time.
If you were driving car A you wouldn’t see the stop sign for car B so you would give way to car B since you are turning right. Same logic applies to car B that the driver wouldn’t see the sign for car A and expect car A to stop and give way.
In practice car A is at fault for not giving way when turning right. By the road rules car B is at fault for not stopping at a stop sign.
Both cars are at fault.
If at a round a bout a car signals they are exiting but instead continue to go around.
And hit another car going straight who is at fault.
Car going straight. A car in a roundabout always has right of way. You cannot enter a roundabout with another car on it.
Hmm, plenty of roundabouts big enough for more than one car so I'd like to see the actual rule saying you can't have 2 cars on a roundabout if you can reference it.
I know the right of way rule is correct though.
@singingwolf: Looked up role in nsw.
It says "When you approach a roundabout, you must slow down or stop to give way to all vehicles already in the roundabout"
All vehicles.
@singingwolf: Giving way doesn’t mean you can’t enter the roundabout if there are other cars on it. Just means you cannot enter in any way to impede the travel of other vehicles on it.
Note: cars on roundabout do not have ‘right of way’. No one does. Ta not a thing in traffic law. They may not have a legal obligation to give way like other drivers do, but they must avoid a crash if at all possible. It’s semantics, but leads to a defensive driving attitude.
Doesn’t matter whether its a stop sign or give way sign.
Given car A had a give way sign, the cross road is therefore the main road meaning both a and b need to give way to vehicles already on that road
Why are we still talking about this? OP has already admitted to be car B and that he didn't see the stop sign and drove through the intersection. It's obviously that it was car B's fault. We all agree that it would be car A's fault had both got to the give way/stop sign at the same time but that wasn't the case.
I agree with that position. Yep. Absolutely.
Im responding to your position about seeing the stop sign for the other vehicle being irrelevant
Give Way sign beats Stop sign. No contest. No discussion. That’s it FFS!
A+B share the cookie, C gets the cake.
If you were driving car A you wouldn’t see the stop sign for car B
As an Ex NZ Public service driver and delivery driver for many years there are few circumstances where I wouldn't have noticed that the other driver was at a stop sign, as well as the double white line for them to stop at, whether there were pedestrians, what the cars behind me were signalling and where they were moving,, cars coming on the crossing road or even low flying aircraft. I'd also be aware of the direction that driver was looking and, if visible from my angle, where their hands were on the steering wheel.
If driver B had stopped, then proceeded as I slowed and checked as I came up to the giveway sign, I would stop. If driver B showed no sign of stopping, I would still have my front wheels pointing straight ahead and would halt - and hope either a camera or patrol car had spotted the dangerous behaviour.
As the OP has mentioned, they didn't stop.
If car B hadn’t stopped there is no doubt that car B is at fault. The real issue right now is OP can’t prove it without a dash cam. I am sure car B would claim that he had stopped and proceeded to cross the intersection but car A did not give way when turning right. When in doubt both are at fault.
Road signs for car B are irrelevant to car A, car A was turning and needs to give way to any incoming cars and this collisions is an exact example of why. This is why the road rules are written as “obligation to give way” and not “RiGhT oF wAy.”
Also, car B needs to stop. And blasting through a stop sign is “playing stupid games” and wrecking your car is “winning stupid prizes”.
The way I see it, both drivers got exactly what I would expect and car A should pay for car B’s repairs and car B should pay for car A’s repairs.
OP, more MS Paint diagram is required for further OzAuto to investigate further. Please show the point/area of impact on both cars.
This happened to my aunt last year. Police and insurance ruled it was the car’s who didn’t stop at stop sign fault.
If A was already turning and car B came through without stopping and hit car A, then B would be at fault.
Agreed but nobody knows who was already on the road
If I’m reading the nsw road rules correctly, car B does not need to yield to car A (obviously car B had an obligation to stop at the stop sign first)
When you stop at a ‘Stop’ sign or ‘Stop’ line, you must give way to vehicles driving in, entering or approaching the intersection except for:
- an oncoming vehicle that’s also at a ‘Stop’ sign or line and is turning right
- an oncoming vehicle that’s at a ‘Give way’ sign or line and is turning right
- a vehicle turning left using a slip lane
a vehicle making a U-turn.
When you’re turning left or right at a ‘Stop’ sign or line, you must also give way to pedestrians crossing the road that you’re turning into.
That's exactly how it is. Car A needed to give way to Car B.
https://www.nsw.gov.au/driving-boating-and-transport/roads-s…
However, it is important to note that once car A has started moving beyond the give way sign, it is no longer ‘at a give way sign’.
So this would only apply when both vehicles are at their respective sign.
If car B hit car A on the passenger side doors, it will be hard to argue that A wasn’t already beyond the give way sign when car B entered the intersection
My view has shifted to believe car B at fault
Absolutely. The rule addresses this by stating "at a 'give way' sign or line".
If they've moved beyond the sign or line then clearly that doesn't apply.
@Vote for Pedro: For sure. Was probably hoping as little info as possible would give them confirmation bias.
That's the thing… Nobody knows if A was already on the road when B ran the stop sign
But running a stop sign is pretty much running a red light
It's pretty hard for B to not to see A if they are already on the road
I think the impact location would be a good indicator. However we don’t know coz OP hasn’t given those details
Nobody knows if A was already on the road when B ran the stop sign
Car A should see car B approaching the intersection, no? If they want turn right, and they have a give away sign there they should give away to the other car. Regardless of the sign on the other side.
Yep and car B should see car A coming if they were at a complete stop too. But if B weren't at a complete stop, they would of ran the stop sign which they did.
But A is to give way to anyone on the road, but not sure if B was already on the road
B is to come to a complete stop and then give way to anyone on the road but not sure if A was already on the road
Timing unknown need more details
turning left or right
at a ‘Stop’ sign or lineyou must also give way to pedestrians…FIFY
The " must give way" relates to traffic, not cars. Where there is heavy pedestrian traffic, the local authorities usually put up a light controlled crossing - and appropriate signage..
You mean fixed it for the nsw government? That’s an extract from their website. Lol.
You can contact them at https://www.service.nsw.gov.au/contact-us to let them know you fixed it for them.
Whats the intersection location, i can't for the life of me think when a scenario like this would exist.
The car approaching the intersection with the give way has an unimpeded view of the intersection and surrounds therefore only has to give way.
The car approaching the intersection with the stop sign does not have a clear view of the intersection or approaching traffic and is therefore required to stop for safety reasons before proceeding through the intersection.
Do you have a real life example?
Where OP was?
Have fun:
https://www.dit.sa.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/160383/DOCS_AND_FILES-1585857-v8-Traffic_Management_-AS1742_2-Traffic_Control_Signs_Remote_Area_Unsealed_Roads-_Operational_Instruction_2_37.pdf
https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety/rules/road/give-way
It's in the Queensland road rules complete with the exact diagram. So I assume there exist such places or they have envisioned they might.
@Drakesy: Maybe try getting your drivers licence and doing some driving, because this is not uncommon at all…
@Drakesy: Why is anyone going to play your silly game though?
I mean what exactly do you want here. Someone to go off and find you a google maps link to show you something you would have seen many times before, and until that happens you will sit here pretending it doesn't exist for some weird reason.
From 38 seconds if both vehicles are at their respective signs at same time.
It’s likely in OPs scenario that car A was already past the give way sign and in the main road before they got to the stop sign and went through it.
It is only right when two cars stop there at the same time, but it seems not here.
A should give way to B after B finishes mandatory STOP step. The situation here is A has entered the intersection before B should have done the mandatory STOP step.
If Car A doesn't have dash cam footage there is no way Car B is at fault. Car B just says they stopped first. Car A did not give way.
Simple.
If car B stopped, they would have seen car A was already on the main road/intersection and is required to yield. This is all dependent on where the impact happened. Did car B hit pax side doors? The car b at fault. If it was more front to front, then car A.
The accident is very unlikely to have been possible if car B had come to a complete stop though.
I mean who would accelerate forward from stationary just a few meters and then straight into another car. It's not really plausible.
You'd be surprised. Look at the dash cam videos on YT.
I'd be interested to see an actual Google Map image of this intersection…
If B didn't stop B is at fault, A can proceed anywhere without stopping , but yeah hard one to prove , I would say it would me a matter of pay your own insurance , or " hey I found a witness that can confirm they didn't stop " (friend) carton of grog .
A turned in front of B so I think A is at fault no matter what… It's like when someone slams on the brakes and the person behind runs up their ass, the person behind is always in the wrong..
It's like when someone slams on the brakes and the person behind runs up their ass, the person behind is always in the wrong..
No, if a person deliberately causes an accident like that they are certainly in the wrong, it's a criminal act even.
Here we go, some proof for whoever voted me down, lol
https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety/rules/road/give-way#….Giving way at intersections with 2 stop signs or give way signs
A stop sign is not more powerful than a give way sign when giving way. When 2 drivers arrive at stop or give ways signs at the same time, the stop sign becomes the equivalent of a give way sign. Both vehicles must give way to other vehicles before they must give way to each other.In this example, 2 vehicles are opposite each other at an intersection. Vehicle A (in white) has a give way sign. Vehicle B (in yellow) has a stop sign.
Vehicle A (white) must give way to Vehicle B (yellow) because it is turning right across the path of Vehicle B (yellow).B was going 100km/hr and ran the stop signed and T-Boned A that was already on the road yet A is at fault for not giving way lol
Or
B stopped and saw A coming. Gunned it and T-Boned them on purpose for insurance fraud
Yes a stop sign works the same as a give way - but you must come to a complete stop first.
If that doesn't happen then the person blowing through the stop sign is at fault.
(friend) carton of grog .
Off to the casino today? It depends how much you time is worth - some people would prefer secure accommodation, a laundry service, supplied meals and security guards in a private compound to paying out for repairs…
Either or.
Both bad drivers and should have your licences revoked.C is at fault.
I am curious to know how the insurance you’re with ruled it. Who did they deem at fault?
Simple fact is there's not enough information to lay blame. Consider if this was Car A's statement to police…
"I saw the other vehicle further along the road as I approached the intersection, but determined that it was sufficiently far enough away for me to easily and safely proceed to turn right in the intersection - especially as I knew that the vehicle had a Stop sign and thus would need to slow and come to a stop before proceeding through the intersection. It was only after I entered the intersection that I realized that the vehicle was approaching at a speed significantly higher than the speed limit. The other vehicle failed to slow as it approached the stop sign, and then failed to stop at all before entering the intersection, at which point he hit me".
Is any of that true? Who knows. But without any video footage, it could be. The most telling extra fact would be the location of the impact, which the OP has failed to provide. If the OP's car clipped the tail of Car A then the above seems very, very likely. If Car A impacted the side of Car B then it's a very different story.
Also if car B had come to a complete stop then its speed would have been very low only a few meters after where the accident occurred.
Both likely to be at fault (contributory negligence): A failed to give way; B failed to completely stop.
https://www.lawaccess.nsw.gov.au/Pages/representing/lawassis…
How much was each at fault? Difficult to guess without more information (e.g. timing / speed / location of impact).
If B ran a stop sign he is completely at fault, that is a deliberate act, not really even an accident.
The car turning in front of the other car should have been paying more attention and not turned in front of a moving car, stop sign or not.
Car B is almost certainly at fault.
You aren't required to give way to another car that is supposed to be stopping.
If car B was already stopped at the stop sign, then that's another matter. In that case car A would be required to give way.
Might need to re-apply for your license ;)
Agree haha. Turning vehicles in most cases should always give way to cars going straight.
Do you feel the same about cars running a red light, or is it only cars blowing through stop signs that we have to give way to?
@trapper: You should always be checking for cars blowing through sets of lights and stop signs and any other place where you're driving across the path of other cars. The best defensive driving is being proactive about avoiding accidents.
OP has now admitted that he was car B and didn't see the stop sign.
Looks like I get to keep my licence. :D
But A is still at fault if B hadn't blown through the intersection.
B broke the road rules and therefore would be at fault, the diagram provided didn't state this.
If they both arrived at the same time then A is definitely at fault as B has priority.
In this situation, you should always give way to cars going straight. A is at fault but B is a dhead for not stopping.
Both fault
If both cars had stopped at the intersection at their respective signs and lines, then Car A must give way to Car B. Car B does not have to give way to Car A if both Car A and Car B are stopped because Car A is turning right. If that had occurred and the two cars impacted, then Car A is at fault. However, that does not appear to be the factual scenario here.
The fact that Car B did not stop changes things. Road rules dictate that Car B must both stop at the stop sign and give way to any vehicles in the intersection. As per above, one exception to giving way at a stop sign is for a right-turning car stopped at a Give way sign, but that is only an exception for giving way in that particular scenario. This is not an exception for having to stop (that is, Car B still has to stop), nor does it affect giving way generally (Car B still has to give way to all vehicles in the intersection, among other things).
For a collision to occur, it is presumably the case that, assuming reasonable speeds for their respective actions, Car A must have been in the intersection before Car B given how much further Car A has to travel from the point of entry into the intersection. It is potentially reasonable for Car A to assume right of way once in the intersection knowing that Car B had to stop (though the reasonableness of this will very likely depend on many further details not presented here). While there is no dash cam footage, the speed of Car B at the time of impact may be assessed from the crash evidence and may be used to establish that Car B did not stop at the stop sign as required by law.
Based on what is presented here (and making some presumptions as outlined), Car B is likely at fault.
Source: I am a lawyer
B may be at fault if you apply the rules at Vic Roads.
https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/safety-and-road-rules/road-r…
Go to "Intersection" section for no traffic lights and it specifically says that if you are facing a Give Way sign, you must give way unless other vehicle is "oncoming, turning right, and is also facing a Stop or Give Way sign or line".
So OP, was B oncoming, turning right?
Pays to read the title
NSW
There's insufficient information provided to assess fault. We need to know where the collisions occured (so did A get hit on the side, or B, or both front of A and B collided). This will tell us which car needed to give way. Hopefully you're not "self insured", lol.
Btw the stop sign for car B is irrelevant in this situation. It's like saying because I saw this other guy stealing office supplies, I'm going to embezzle all the company money.