No, Medicare Should NOT Cover Dental Work

This is always a hot topic in Australia. We have such generous healthcare yet people still complain that they have to pay out of pocket for dental work.

While the prospect of having perfect teeth for "free" sounds appealing on paper, everyone seems to ignore the knock-on effects:

  • dentists will actually become more expensive as they'd no longer have any reason to keep their prices low

  • the wait times will be increased because more people will be lining up for their free whitening or to fix a lifetime of poor oral hygiene

  • the quality of care will inevitably decrease as more patients need to be served.

This is the exact same thing we see in hospitals. Nobody goes to the dentist for a mild toothache or because their child is teething. But people willfully clog up the ER thinking they're going to die because of a bad pimple because they know it doesn't cost them anything.

So in the end, the service costs more AND that cost is incurred more often as more people use the service.

Who pays for all that? It comes straight out of your taxes. So you're left paying MORE for an inferior service. It's not just poor economic reasoning, it's a sin of Ozbargain.

Comments

        • Families with family cover with anything but the lowest extra will get full preventative cover if they go to their preferred provider.

          Of course if they elect not to purchase PHI, then they wouldn't be. But that is a larger discussion on how the government is attempting to shift all healthcare costs onto the individual.

          Disregarding this, my person opinion is that extras cover for individuals that maintain their oral health, is not needed. It is more costly to pay for PHI, than to pay for a checkup and clean every 6 months. But people don't do that - they "hate" dentists and don't attend until there is pain.

          • @Tech5: I actually don't mind dentists. I got used to them young. I just mind the costs and suprise costs that make me wish I'd never gone. I have extras, i get a certain $ amount back every year if I go preferred, then i pay. Scale and clean w xrays. It really depends on the coverage and the fund itself and my insurance is not the lowest extra. Also… insurance and exteas, we pay for this. Medicare would be free.

            • @cookie2: Medicare isn't really free though…

              Just from a quick search, the dental is currently a 10bn industry in Australia. Even if we cut it by 50% to account for cosmetic (it isn't really that much, but for arguments sake say that it is), that is still 5bn. Medicare in 2022 is 19bn. That is a 50% cost blowout that is either recouped from reducing other services (unlikely), or increasing tax.

              It is a redistribution of wealth from those that can look after their teeth to those that can't.

              • +2

                @Tech5: You forget that Medicare costs will reduce if dental is included, as people won't have to go to the emergency department for issues that could have been addressed much earlier for much less cost. The dental cost will also reduce because the government has bulk buying power. Just like how in Australia you can buy medicines for a hundredth of the cost as the same thing in the US.

                • -7

                  @Quantumcat: Totally and if everything gets vaccinated, we'll never have to worry about covid hospitalisations ever again.

                  Aren't bullshit assumptions fun to make!

                  • +2

                    @SlavOz: Yeah they're pretty fun to make by the ill informed/naive.

                    Medically and professionally, no one ever claimed covid vaccines would reduce hospitalisations to zero, but rather reduce the impact of the disease so there will be less hospitalisations.

                • @Quantumcat: The number of hospital visits (where a hospital visit is warranted) caused by issues that could've been solved early by dental visits probably isn't all that high.
                  Where it would save is by those who turn up to the hospital complaining about a toothache and nothing is required to be/can be done under the hospital system. However the monetary costs of those visits are fairly low as no procedure would really be done, it just sucks up time and labour resources (which are really sunk costs and not really additional costs). It will costs Medicare more because the cost of providing the dental fix is highly likely more than the marginal cost to provide a 5min exam and a script at the ER or GP.

              • @Tech5: We have different views and that's ok. But thanks for the info. Where we differ seems to be mostly the definition of who can and can't affort to look after their teeth. Preventative is just the logic way forward to me.

  • +2

    Medicare coverage at current dental prices would very likely bankrupt the scheme. All prices would have to drop, not just the dentist's prices itself. This includes lab costs, government body oversight, TGA, infection control policies.

    Alternative is a NHS style system where dentists are paid $500 for a crown. The issue here is that the lab cost of a quality crown is roughly $350+ depending on material. I have had crowns costing up to $1200 depending on the lab and aesthetics. We would end up with NHS style dentistry which is by and large, not of a good quality.

    • So you're saying the states should pay for it then with their own dental hospitals and clinics, rather than the federal government paying for it?

      • The states already pay for their own dental hospitals and clinics. Healthcare is actually run by the individual states, it just so happens that on a federal level there is funding to the states. Medicare doesn't actually provide direct funding to operate hospitals or clinics but rather it pays practitioners to provide a service. The costs of hospitals and clinics are wholly born by the operators. It just that with public hospitals the operator is the State Government or an entity contracted to do so on their behalf.

  • I believe that preventative and maintenance dentist visits should be covered. Check ups throughout lifetime will reduce risks and issues later in life. And everyone should have access to that, no matter their funds. That's just healthcare. I also believe that medically required dentistry should be covered, within reason. Eg. Cracked tooth, causing physical pain, would be covered. (Though I think if liable for your own damage, maybe not). It just makes sense, preventative healthcare works, look at breastcancer and bowel cancer screenings as just 1 example.

    • -1

      If all preventative dental were covered then no one would need further care.

      • +1

        That's a very ill informed view of what preventative dental does. Even with good preventative care, fillings, root canals, extractions and further care will still be needed as we age.

        It's like saying your regular physical with your GP will stop you needing a knee replacement. It might delay the need for a few years but it won't stop your body breaking down to the point of needing it.

      • No, but the incidence and severity of future care required would often be less, due to preventative measures over a period of time. It will be more expensive at the beginning to implement but will become justified as the years go on.

        • If it doesn't cover all dental needs then people with a genetic disorder that affects blood flow to their gums will have to pay more just to maintain their teeth than people without such disorders.

      • Preventative is usually just x-rays (first time), cleaning and maybe basic fillings.

        What is useful is people getting a talking to about bad habits (not brushing properly, not using right tooth brush) and advice on what will go wrong if they don't take action.

        Probably $200 - $300 a year.

        From all these comments there is people who think if everyone pays $500 then they can get work worth thousands done. That is assume there is enough people who have good habits otherwise it is going to cost everyone thousands.

  • Bet this guy just loves shopping around for health insurance.

    Who has time for that rubbish. I hate getting forced by the government to buy insurance from a company. Just raise everyone's taxes by a small amount, cover everyone, give everyone at least basic checkups, get rid of the waste that is marketing costs and bonuses for health insurance executives. Get rid of the profit margin.

  • Wen UBI?

  • Most kids get free dental under Medicare.
    I don’t see this being taken advantage of.

    There is also low cost public dental it’s just such a long wait time that people really suffer waiting. They will even give you a voucher for private dental if they can’t fit you in. Although only enough to get teeth removed not repaired.

    There is even an option of free dentures or surgical implants for people with their teeth knocked out by abusive partners. It’s just a long wait time and a difficult application process. Often men knock out woman’s teeth on purpose to prevent her having future relationships.

    • Most kids get free dental under Medicare.
      I don’t see this being taken advantage of.

      That is because most kids don't want to go and see the dentist anyway.

      Most private health junk policies have enough for preventative dental only. I'm for medicare covering preventative dental (x-ray, cleaning and a talking to about oral health) but some of the ideas believing increase tax of a few hundred will cover thousands in dental work. I'd be very suspicious of those claims. Most people have no idea of the maths.

  • Medicare dental would obviously not need to cover cosmetics. Suggesting things such as teeth whitening is just plain dumb. I'd be happy with a co-payment, and while we're at it please add a co-payment to GP visits too. I've heard first hand from people who go to see their GP several times a week simply to have a chat because the GP speaks their own language (i.e. not English), and not for any medical condition. Perhaps if it cost them $5 or $10 a pop they'd at least think twice about it.

  • +2

    Total baloney. Dental care should be part of health care. Cosmetic work is same as cosmetic surgery, not covered. But clearly OP never had a sore tooth!!! Good dental health improves everything from health to job prospects to quality of life. I personaly don't understand why physio, psychology, dental etc is so poorly catered for. My ex was in hospital for self harm and couldn't see a psych till 6 months later. We can't complain about health care in Australia, but like the rest of our government policies it is far from ideal.

  • I assume the op is a dentist?

    • Dentists have high suicide rates.

      • Is that true?
        Last time I looked it was farmers and emergency workers that were on top of the list. Dentists and general medical were towards the bottom

        • It used to be, but surveys/statistics…

          But hey, don't let verifiable facts, peer-reviewed articles or independent sources cloud a thread by SlavOz.

        • Generally speaking, dentists are at the top of the list. Stress and burn out is high in medical professions. The exact number one will change depending on the year and survey pool used to make the statistics. But generally medical professionals are at the top.

  • +4

    While include "teeth whitening" in your OP. Medicare does not cover, face lifts, nose jobs etc.

    A lot of what you say is nonsense.

  • Apparently dentist lobbyists fight against joining Medicare because private practices can earn double the income of a government funded ones.

    Thankfully recently they added the child dental health benefit scheme which provides free check ups and preventative work for children for low income earners. But still leaves middle income earners and teenagers/adults having to possibly ignore dental health because of exorbitant medical prices.

    • Dentist don't want to be placed under Medicare because they fear it'll turn into what's happening in the UK. The majority of dentists would love to see dental care become more accessible, but it has to be done properly. Unfortunately governments aren't known to do things properly and the CDBS is a taste of how underpaid things will become if dental care is folded into Medicare, it'll just be like the NHS.

  • +5

    dentists will actually become more expensive as they'd no longer have any reason to keep their prices low

    My name is SlavOz, and I'm not an economist.

    the wait times will be increased because more people will be lining up for their free whitening or to fix a lifetime of poor oral hygiene

    I'm fine with that.

    the quality of care will inevitably decrease as more patients need to be served.

    Yes, this is why when I go to the GP I receive terrible service from dangerously unqualified peop…oh wait, that doesn't happen at all.

    Who pays for all that? It comes straight out of your taxes.

    As someone who's statistically likely to pay more tax than you, good. I will never have a problem with paying more for health or education so everybody gets a fair go.

    • -2

      Thanks for the input Mr. Richie. Unfortunately, you're just a tad out of touch here since the overwhelming majority of Aussies are already struggling with the cost of living and wage stagnation. You want to make that even worse for them by raising taxes across the board.

      Typical priviliged leftie. So out of touch.

      • +6

        Thanks for the input Mr. Richie. Unfortunately, you're just a tad out of touch here since the overwhelming majority of Aussies are already struggling with the cost of living and wage stagnation.

        Is this a joke? You've spent an entire thread saying how you're in favour of paying for dental work and now switch gears to crying poor. So are you struggling with the cost of living or are you easily able to afford dental cover?

      • +1

        As opposed to being a regressive, spouting the same tired slogans.

      • More than happy to pay have a dental levy just for high income earners, like the flood levy. Also more than happy to just pay more tax, full stop.

        the overwhelming majority of Aussies are already struggling with the cost of living and wage stagnation

        Well that can't be true. Your right wing mates in the Coal-ition are awesome at managing the economy and giving ordinary Uhstrayins a fair go, according to them.

        • -2

          lol Liberals are not right wingers, ewww.

    • +1

      I will never have a problem with paying more for health or education so everybody gets a fair go.

      I understand the sentiment. But as someone who is in the second highest tax bracket and only been to the GP like once in the last 4 years (twice in last 10 years with private medical insurance, I am middle aged) and still hear about health under funding as more money is pushed into the system I don't mind paying but some people must be having a good go at it (rather than a fair go).

      Fair go is everyone can have access. Just some people access it a lot more than they are meant to. I have heard that emergency departments are the busiest on weekends because people get too happy socializing and end up having preventable accidents. I tell people if you are going to have an emergency pray it is early in the week because you don't want to be with the in crowd on Friday - Sunday nights.

  • It shouldn't be so black and white. Perhaps issues caused by poor hygiene shouldnt be covered, but checkups, and more important things like wisdom teeth removal should be covered.

  • +5

    If anyone complains about the Medicare levy at tax time. Imagine having to treat all your health care the same way you treat your teeth.

    • Deciding to just ignore it due to fear of finding something worse
    • Dreading the costs
    • Not knowing if you're being ripped off or lied to
    • Watching a family member suffer in pain because of the cost of work.

    That's how people who don't have the luxuries of the health care system we have, live with their everyday medical health.

    • -1

      Deciding to just ignore it due to fear of finding something worse

      Well, that's stupid.

      Dreading the costs

      Can you give an example of something people pay for where they don't dread the cost?

      I wasn't aware that people who buy houses or iPhones are excited to watch their money disappear. If only dentistry was like that!

      Not knowing if you're being ripped off or lied to

      Actually, you've got it the other way around. Our current health system makes it impossible to know if you are being ripped off. Doctors get kickbacks for the medication they prescribe and they often recommend tests/procedures that aren't wholly necessary. But you can't even find out how much that X ray is costing you because they don't tell you. You just have to assume it's reasonably priced and that it won't blow out your tax bill.

      But with dentists, all prices are usually advertised to the public. You know very well if you're being ripped off.

      • Well, that's stupid.

        You've clearly never had to live paycheck to paycheck

        Can you give an example of something people pay for where they don't dread the cost? I wasn't aware that people who buy houses or iPhones

        An iPhone is not heart surgery or cancer treatment

        Actually, you've got it the other way around.

        Medical costs covered by Medicare are regulated and the costs are approved beforehand. They're also reviewed regularly and updated depending on different factors. Doctors don't make up prices and then tell the government to pay them whatever they want.
        Private doctors are unregulated, they can literally charge what they want just like any other product or business.

  • Spot on

  • +1

    Kinda weird how teeth care is free when you're on a health care card. Friend of my mum is a police officer and she says the druggies get better dental than she does

    • -1

      gasp

      not the druggies

      /clutches pearls

  • +4

    Poor oral health can lead to heart disease. I wonder how much money is being wasted on treating heart disease - aortic stents, heart transplants, strokes, etc that could've been prevented by better dental care.

  • +5

    This post just highlights the failure of our education system on slavoz; sad to see it.

    • -4

      What does education have to do with making everything free?

      • +9

        The three main arguments you shared reflect low levels of critical thinking - or blatant trolling. Difficult to say.

        • -4

          Don't mistake interrupting your narrative of free money for "trolling".

      • Nothing is 'free', we all (tax payers) pay for it…

  • +1

    I'm in support of Medicare covering preventative dental. A bit of investment here will have downstream effects in preventing things like infective endocarditis and valve replacements

  • +7

    dentists will actually become more expensive as they'd no longer have any reason to keep their prices low

    This is factually wrong, and conveys your lack of understanding of economics.

    Medicare - a national buyer of healthcare - will decrease prices. It is in all dentists best interests to oppose Dental care coming under Medicare.

    Why do you think the medical profession in the USA opposes 'medicare for all'?

    the wait times will be increased because more people will be lining up for their free whitening or to fix a lifetime of poor oral hygiene

    Do we have a shortage of Dentists now? Prove it, this is your spouting not based on facts.

    the quality of care will inevitably decrease as more patients need to be served.

    Does your quality of work decrease with practice and experience?

    You are also acknowledging that for any of this to make sense, there are people walking around now with poor dental health, leading to pain and secondary infection (which you will pay for when they see their GP or hospital) - hence there are people too poor to afford a dentist, and you are ok with that because you are too ignorant to understand it doesn't need to be this way.

    • -7

      This is factually wrong, and conveys your lack of understanding of economics.

      lol the first rule of economics is that price is determined by supply and demand. If demand for a service goes up (by making it more accessible), then price goes up too.

      Stop pretending you're smart just because you want free shit. Almost everything the government touches becomes more expensive. Look at what government policies did to the housing market or the general cost of living.

      You also seem to be painfully ignorant to the concept of deregulation and its affect on prices

      Do we have a shortage of Dentists now?

      No, because the number of patients (demand) is currently kept low by high prices. See how that makes sense?

      You are also acknowledging that for any of this to make sense, there are people walking around now with poor dental health

      Not necessarily. The increase in demand would come not because people need dentistry, but because they'd simply use it as an alternative to personal responsibility or oral hygiene. We already see this with healthcare as literally the majority of Australians are overweight or obese.

      • +8

        lol the first rule of economics is that price is determined by supply and demand. If demand for a service goes up (by making it more accessible), then price goes up too.

        … in a perfectly competitive market with no information asymmetry between buyers and sellers.

        This does not, and never will apply to healthcare.

        Stop pretending you're smart just because you want free shit.

        I don't need to pretend.

        Stop pretending to understand economics and advocating against your own interests.

        The impacts of Medicare and the PBS on prices is clear. Your hypotheticals are already proven false. A national insurer reduces healthcare prices. Period.

      • +5

        lol the first rule of economics is that price is determined by supply and demand. If demand for a service goes up (by making it more accessible), then price goes up too.

        As someone with an economics degree and works as an economist, this is blatantly wrong.

        You learn this in your first week of first year micro, then you spend the rest of your 3 - 4 years learning about all of the different situations in which this is not true. The first example of which is around 4 weeks in where you learn about inelastic demand, where the demand does not change due to the price. Classic textbook example is healthcare and drugs. People who need treatment will seek treatment and are usually willing to pay whatever is asked. Those who do not need treatment will not seek it out no matter how much the price is. In other words, healthcare services are not price sensitive (i.e. inelastic).

        This is an example of market failure, and is why we need regulation (or external forces) to correct that market failure. You need some regulator to, for example, regulate the price of drugs in order to balance peoples' needs with some level of ROI required by drug companies to continue investing in R&D.

        No, because the number of patients (demand) is currently kept low by high prices. See how that makes sense?

        Again, shows you know nothing - even if you are correct and dental care is an elastic good, the high prices are set by constrained supply of dentists. You also learn in your first week that prices are set by supply and demand, not supply/demand being set by prices.

        TL;DR - you have no idea what you are talking about.

    • Does your quality of work decrease with practice and experience?

      It decreases with time available. What you don't understand is there there are many roads in dentistry that lead to the same "result". For e.g. I can do a filling in 10 minutes or 40 minutes. We end up with a filling in both cases. One of these fillings is of a piss poor quality. Guess which.

      • The point is why would quality decrease if you have more patients?

        The amount of time you spend is your decision as a professional. If you could do it in 10 mins instead of 40 mins, why doesn't everyone already do the quick method?

        • I am a bit confused as to your questions- as they refer to 2 seperate issues.

          1. In response to your second question first- Because quality matters. A 10minute filling is not the same as a 40minute filling. In fact, it is likely below acceptable standards and repeat episodes will result in the practitioner dragged in front of AHPRA and deregistered.

          2. In response to your first question- Because the cost of care does not decrease. And the point is not purely an increase in patients. It is a decrease in price and conversely increase in patient load. I've given an example previously to people that suggested NHS level costs or a 5x decrease in prices.

          A crown that costs 3x less than the "average" $1500 is $500. The lab fee to make the crown is upwards of $350. That means there is a $150 fee to cover what is roughly 1.5 hours of work. A single chair dental surgery requires 200-300 net profit (after lab and material costs) to break even. That means that the dental surgery would be losing money if they spent 1.5 hours on the crown.

          The dentist would have to now spend maybe 20-30minutes on a crown. It is doable but involves a lot of corner cutting, causing poor results.

          At the end of the day, we may agree or disagree on the ethics and morality of the situation. But I am talking about pure numbers as above. I think it is pretty clear that something would need to give. It is the cost-time-quality triangle that most people are familiar with. You can have 2 of them, but never all 3.

          • @Tech5: I'm not disputing that there is a tradeoff between time spent and quality, my point is that whether the patient pays - or medicare pays - your choice to spend more time doesn't change.

            If it was so easy to do dodgy 10min work, why reserve this great efficiency for medicare patients - when you could do it with all patients?
            This is a hypothetical question to make you realise nothing will change - you will still have a tradeoff between time, cost, and quality.

            If there was a way for a provider to make more money, they would already be doing it.

            The assumption that medicare would force you into a situation where it isn't viable to do good work is just that - an assumption. It a distraction to the conversation because we don't know how it would be funded - if charging above medicare rates would be allowed, or if the reimbursement would be fair.

            Your example of a $500 crown - is that a real example? Is it funded so low at the moment for some patients?

            Medicare will cut costs by removing the insurance industry from the equation, and enabling transparency in pricing between providers. Patients will know what is a low price, a high price, and an obscene price - something they currently cannot determine.

            • +1

              @greatlamp: -the $500 NHS crown is legit. 280 GBP or there abouts. All figures used are real

              -I think you misunderstand my point. If medicare came into the equation, there will be a set fee schedule. The fee schedule is likely to be a lot lower than even CDBS/DVA as there just isn’t enough funding. That lower cost is what will put time pressure on dentists. It really isn’t an “assumption” about what will happen as there are real world examples already. Some international like NHS, some domestic like CDBS and DVA

              Full fee paying patients allow the dentist to work to their ethics and skill level. Lower medicare fees will have dentists working to their costs out of necessity.

              • @Tech5: Thanks.

                To be fair, I think your concerns about funding are unwarranted. Public policy simply doesn't work that way.

                They aren't going to look at how much money they have, then cut the schedule prices until it fits the budget.

                They will take the DVA schedule, and copy services over to general patients until they run out of money. What will happen is the schedule will be shorter than the DVA schedule, it won't be priced lower.

  • @Trance N Dance

  • +4

    This argument is so stupid.
    I could say the same for any medical procedure but I'd be just as wrong as you are now. Why have Medicare at all if you think having any sort of universal cover will just push prices up and decrease quality. Have you looked at the US as an example ?

    • -3

      The US healthcare system is responsible for about 99% of life-saving treatments, innovations, or medications that you rely on.

      Where do you think your vaccines come from?

      • +1

        Vaccines come from Huawei. They could get 5G contract so they released covid so they can put a chip in everyone.

        Joke.

      • +2

        You are confusing public healthcare and medical research or academia. Vaccines are made in research labs, and not by doctors working in the emergency dept or by dentists.

  • Make a poll

    • +2

      Based on past SlavOz polls you wouldn't want to vote on any option

  • +1

    "dentists will actually become more expensive as they'd no longer have any reason to keep their prices low"

    Hmm. Which Dentists have you gone to lately?

    I'm actually only 50% on board. I believe a subsidy IS in order for essential work for functional teeth. Fillings, fixing chipped teeth etc. Nothing cosmetic like teeth whitening or straightening etc.

    Speaking from someone who just spent just over $3000 simply getting the basics done on myself and two kids. (fillings, scale and clean).

    Yes there were a lot of fillings (10 or so) but still. the 6 fillings my son had took only an hour. The 4 I had were fixing old fillings that had deteriorated.

  • +4

    Basic dental care should really be free.

    ie, Yearly check-up and cleaning, any necessary fillings or tooth extraction.

  • +11

    150+ downvotes should = topic changed to "No, SlavOZ should NOT be entitled to make new posts" with an appropriate ban.

    • -2

      The saddest part about the world is that people still think I care about downvotes, or that they mean literally anything to anyone except Ozgeeks.

      • +4

        I guess anything other than a PERMANENT BAN is something you would enjoy.

      • +1

        Has any part of this changed your mind? If not then what was the point of this post? You seem to only be selective responding to certain people and repeating the same thing instead of actually acknowledging what people have said.

        • He doesn't make topics to listen to other people, he makes comments to try and change other peoples minds…And sometimes to troll.

  • +1

    It works in Scotland.

    You guys in aus have some seriously misguided ideas about universal healthcare.

    • Talk to most dentists in the UK, they hate the NHS system. It's good for the people, stressful for the providers.

      • The UK NHS is underfunded and doesn't allow providers to charge a gap fee. It is a broken system - by design, for political reasons. They are trying to make the system fail so it can be completely cancelled.

        A GP in Australia can earn 2-3x more than a GP in the UK NHS, and are some of the highest paid GPs in the world.

        Is it more logical to assume that Dentists in Australia would have similar conditions under Medicare that already exist for other Doctors, not the broken UK NHS system.

        TLDR what happens in England and Scotland is irrelevant. Why not talk about the conditions of Doctors in Cuba if you want to overplay a bad example

        • +1

          It was a response to SithVicious' comment about "It works in Scotland". So the NHS comparison would be valid in that context.

          As for an Australia only context, we already have an idea of what it might look like via the DVA and CDBS schedules (and to a certain extent the chronic illness scheme). It's bad. There's no way for a clinic to be profitable at those rates without cutting corners or reducing allocated time per procedure. If you look at fees paid by government vouchers, the DVA schedule and CDBS, they pay about 2/3rds of preferred provider rates and even then preferred provider rates are pretty poor. Then add in the fact that overheads in GP dentistry are significantly higher than in GP medical so it won't translate as well as GPs are generally paid a higher commission due to lower overheads as well.

          I should also mention why there are concerns about dental becoming like the NHS is because no gap allowed is already a provision of some programs like DVA (last I was informed anyway), CDBS bulk bill (and if you don't bulk bill a lot of patients will just walk and go to someone who will), and government vouchers.

      • +1

        Talk to most dentists in the UK, they hate the NHS system.

        Talk to most people and they hate their employer…

  • +4

    /drops hook

    All dentists should be protected and be able to provide no services to unvaccinated patients.

    /waits

  • +11

    Imagine SlavOz at the town hall meeting when they proposed to install a library

    "FREE books will just push the demand up, there will be queues out the door, blocking the street, chaos, booksellers will need to jack up their prices to make up for the lower customer amount, and then they go out of business anyway (higher prices when there's a free service and no customers, come on guys, this is basic economics), why would MY TAX DOLLARS subsidise people who CAN'T AFFORD to pay for THEIR HABITS also sitting around reading, come on, ticket to obesity city amiright"

    • +4

      Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together… MASS HYSTERIA!

    • Imagine you and the rest of Ozbagrain at the same meeting:

      "Wait, people have to pay for their own FOOD? That's outrageous! If food costs money, we're going to see more people die or end up in hospital due to malnutrition, which will just cost us even more money in the long run! It's COMMON SENSE to make all food FREE!"

      AMIRITE??

      • +7

        Oh look, it's SlavOz and his constant companion, False Equivalence. What a cute couple you make, no wonder you're never apart.

        • "It's OK for me to make bullshit comparisons but when SlavOz does it, it's a false equivalence!"

          Dude, you literally compared dental work to books. You're in no position to talk about false equivalences.

          • +5

            @SlavOz: Yeah, my subsidised medicine/library books via slippery slope supply/demand economics stuff was EXACTLY the same as "all food should be free"

            christ dude, i was kidding when i said you were an item with false equivalence. have you actually put a ring on it?

            • @Crow K: If anything, my example actually makes more sense. Books aren't a human need. They're a commodity. However, food is essential. Without it (or relying too much on cheap options to keep prices low), people get very sick and die. Obesity, heart disease, and diabetes are predominantly diet-related issues and they happen to be among the biggest burdens on our healthcare system.

              So, it would actually be quite sensible to argue for all food to be free using the same logic as why dental care should be free. Of course, only if you're a complete socialist nutter who doesn't understand economics. But still, it would be logically consistent.

              So you're wrong however you look at it.

              • +2

                @SlavOz: O M Goodness, you have got a thing with False Equivalence! Did it get you pregnant? Are you carrying its SHitTy rEaSOniNg child??? Is that the motherly blush of 'cognitive dissonance' I see on your cheek, the 'commitment to egocentrism' gleam I see in your eye?

                I'd say congratulations to the "happy couple" but we both know that's something that's not going to happen. Not with that adjective, anyway.

                You've better get a good job, I don't want you using my tax dollars to stick it into free childcare, like a freeloading benefit scab.

                Take responsibility for your own mistakes. If only to see what it feels like.

    • +2

      I'm imagining SlavOz roaming around town complaining about immigrants and his doctor not having an "Aussie accent" as he cleans the flag of his motherland for his slav pride shrine.

  • +5

    dentists will actually become more expensive as they'd no longer have any reason to keep their prices low

    You have no idea how the Medicare system works do you. Under Medicare rebates, the fees are set by Medicare. Take a look at the CDBS and you'll find the rates are stupid low and there's a dollar limit that resets every 2 years. There is a private fee option but that will just eat up the allowance faster, not to mention more paperwork.

    The closest thing we have to compare in Australia is to take a look at how the medical side of things are done. Medicare was never intended to cover all medical costs.
    The rebate is done as a percentage of the bill with a maximum claim amount dictated by the Medicare Benefits Schedule:
    - 100% for consultations
    - 85% for services provided in the community
    - 75% for services provided in hospitals when admitted as a private patient.
    If the claim amount is higher than the schedule the gap paid by the patient increases. So not only is there an incentive to keep costs low, it's almost entirely dictated that costs are kept low (otherwise those who want to be treated under Medicare system won't attend any dentists who don't charge bulk bill or rates that result in low gaps). This in itself isn't a problem, it essentially shifts the system towards more of a single-payer healthcare and Medicare essentially will play the role of what private health insurance does now.

    Now why is Medicare a bad thing. The NHS is an example of why this is a bad thing, state dental programs are an example of why this is a bad thing. When you move to a schedule that is dictated by the government the fee structure is absurdly low, and at times actually below costs. More work, less pay; just ask any GP and how they have been underappreciated by fee freezes that seemed to go on and on and on.

    the wait times will be increased because more people will be lining up for their free whitening or to fix a lifetime of poor oral hygiene

    Medicare in Australia (as far as I know) has never covered cosmetic procedures, I doubt it will for dental. Private health insurance doesn't either.

    the quality of care will inevitably decrease as more patients need to be served.

    This is an argument that is brought up countless times, and is one with real concern. However there are legal standards that must be adhered to, and if fees are stupid low, sadly that line will be played with by a small number of individuals. What will most likely happen however is the service level will become less personal and time will be squeezed so everything will feel rushed. Ever been to a busy bulk billing (or low gap) medical practice, you feel like the moment you walk in the door the doc is quickly trying to solve your main issue, get you out the door and then get you to come back for the next issue. The minimum is done with little or no chance of elaborating and discussing other concerns and if there are any, you're told to come back so a repeat visit can be billed.

    You're right about one thing, it will cost the taxpayer. However as decent human beings that shouldn't be a deterrent there are significant benefits to having improved access to dental care (reduced pain and suffering, improved economy because there is less down time from dental issues, improved quality of life, etc). That being said, it needs to be implemented properly without screwing over those who provide the service (a la NHS)

  • Tldr, I only read the title. Most people are disagreeing with this right…right? Or is OP being sarcastic?

    • Check OP's post history before devoting further thought to his motivations :)

  • +4

    As a Doctor and a pervious Optometrist. Medicare is the best thing that has ever happened to Australia. Optometry has been in medicare since the start and its one of the reasons why eye care is so good in Australia. The only reason Dentistry isnt on medicare is cause money it is as simple as that and I get it. As soon as a dentist practice starts bulk billing other practices will need to as well. It wont make Dentists more expensive. If a Dentist is good enough they will be able to charge a Gap. This happens with medicine practitioners and optometrists.

  • +1

    Your entire argument fails because people already see how shit the US system is (and that you basically propose) and that Medicare works right now (improvements can be done).

    All your arguments are arguments that US propagates to keep dumb people believing they have a good system.

    • -2

      Ask yourself why wealthy people with serious health problems always travel to America to seek treatment. Nobody living abroad says "I'll travel to Australia to get the opinion of their top doctors!" Nobody gives a shit about our healthcare system because it's extremely average. Top marks for being accessible, but that doesn't make it good. Patient outcomes and speciality makes it good. Even rich people living here usually seek treatment elsewhere.

      All the world's leading doctors, corporations, and medical innovations come from the US. The majority of medication or life-saving surgery that we can get for free isn't because of Medicare - it's because those pills or surgeries were discovered in the first place by another system which we then bag out.

      You're biting the hand that feeds you.

      • +2
      • +3

        Nobody living abroad says "I'll travel to Australia to get the opinion of their top doctors!"

        https://www.childrenfirstfoundation.org.au/2017/05/01/choity…

        A Bangladeshi girl born with three legs and conditions never seen before is set to return home after treatment that still amazes her Melbourne surgeons and carers….Born with a third leg, two sets of internal organs and missing other vital sections of her body, Choity was brought to Australia by Children First Foundation after an international effort for a unique operation.

        https://www.epworth.org.au/newsroom/world-first-surgery-re-g…

        Urologist Mr Justin Chee and plastic surgeon Dr Ajay Chauhan of MURAC Health have pioneered a groundbreaking surgical technique using a urethra grown from the patient's very own cheek lining. The new urethra is transferred from the forearm to the perineum using microsurgery and is regarded as a less invasive surgical intervention than is typical when operating within this hard-to-access area….The world-first surgery has been successfully performed on four catheter-dependent patients overseas, treated over a timeframe of one to two years from first consult to final follow-up, with a success rate of 100%.

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