Housing Pickle, Any Help Would Be Appreciated

frewer on 26/01/2022 - 14:10
Last edited 28/01/2022 - 19:33 by 1 other user

G'day all strangers,

I'll keep this short. My wife ask me to post this.

She bought (7yrs ago, when she was young & naïve) a house, in Geelong area, with her father. On the paper she own 95%, 5% is her dad. She never stay there, beside a few holidays. They paid a total of $350000 and and owing $160000.

A few year ago, she was diagnose with cancer. So that change her perspective/goal/priority in life. She want to sell the house ( we did tried many times to talk him to rent out the place, but he said no lol ).

Is she able to sell without his permission. He can have his share and she can have her share? Will she needs legal advice? Will they able to pay back to the bank when they are done?

Are they tenants in common?

Thank you.

Here MS paint

EDIT: Excuse my bad grammar, English isnt my native language.
EDIT 2: Please stick to the topic at hand, I didnt ask for any judgement either us or her father. If I want it I would put it down. For those gave practical & helpful advice. THANK YOU !

UPDATE 1: Thank you for those suggestion, I have 1) Request further doco from the bank 2) Will use https://www.landata.online once those doco arrived.

Financial

Comments

    • frewer on 26/01/2022 - 14:14
      +6

      lol I was thinking to post it many times, last 2 yrs. But then it is … well very complicates … We're on the same page about what to do with the house. The issue is that her dad want "it to be a family house", we couldn't see our side move there in 100yrs, 'nothing' there for us, no support, no help, nothing …

  • garetz on 26/01/2022 - 14:31
    +10

    As a 95% stakeholder you should be able to rent the place out without his permission.

    However unless you take it to court to force a sale of the 5%, i doubt you can sell it without his go ahead.

      • brendanm on 26/01/2022 - 16:56
        +71

        but it doesnt seems right in the eyes of God

        Hahahaha

        • Binchicken22 on 27/01/2022 - 22:25
          +26

          Is this really necessary?

          As an Aussie that's barely set food inside a church, I just don't get Australians being so "smugly" anti-religion. He didn't try to force his beliefs on anyone, just said how he feels personally.

          No need to be so rude IMO.

          • athk on 28/01/2022 - 08:45
            -5

            @Binchicken22:

            As an Aussie that's barely set food inside a church, I just don't get Australians being so "smugly" anti-religion. He didn't try to force his beliefs on anyone, just said how he feels personally.

            Food is not aloud in church which is probably why you've never take it inside.

      • ProlapsedHeinous on 26/01/2022 - 19:04
        +58

        Just quickly do it when god is asleep. easy peasy.

        • kaleidoscope on 27/01/2022 - 23:51
          -1

          what are these times… also does daylight savings apply to god?

      • Kangal on 27/01/2022 - 08:50
        +4

        Ehh, Mark 12:17 ?

        "Render unto Caesar whais Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s."

        • Antikythera on 27/01/2022 - 10:44
          +1

          wrong "god"

          • cadwalader on 27/01/2022 - 18:33

            @Antikythera: Caesar is the right god though.

          • Chandler on 28/01/2022 - 11:39
            +1

            @Antikythera: Depends on what OP's religion is. Some religions share the same "God"; some are similar enough that you could say that - ignoring some specific but not completely relevant details - they share the "same" "God". Some clearly do not share the same God.

            So which God did you think OP was referring to?

        • frewer on 27/01/2022 - 16:18
          -2

          Can you image that Jesus said, it's ok you can keep you monies. Then I dont have to paid tax, coz it's moral thing to do lol

          • Kangal on 28/01/2022 - 00:17
            +1

            @frewer: Well, he was basically a homeless travelling hippie.
            Don't forget he rampaged a church which was doing business/trading goods, and said that anyone that is rich will eventually go to hell.

            • frewer on 28/01/2022 - 10:07

              @Kangal: They was doing business in Synagogue which is a wrong place to do it. Where there is business there is rid off lol, hence Jesus said “’My house will be called a house of prayer,’ but you are making it ‘a den of robbers.’”

              said that anyone that is rich will eventually go to hell.

              Not sure which verse you prefer to, I assume these one
              "No one can serve two masters. For either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will hold to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money." Which is true, you can see it over and over again …

              "All these I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?"
              "If you would be perfect, go and sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. And come, follow Me." (Matthew 19:21). And what the rich dude did ? He took of, he prefer to keep his $ than give it up.

              "And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." Matthew 19:24. He just said it's harder for a rich man to enter into the king of God.

              So in all and all Jesus said one cant have their munies and enter into the king of God as well. He didnt say "rich people will eventually go to hell", coz that defeat Jesus's scarified on the cross … dont you think

              • Kangal on 28/01/2022 - 10:15
                +2

                @frewer: It's easier for a camel (or knot?) to go through the eye of a needle, than for a wealthy person to go-to Heaven.

                So it's either impossible, or very rare, or improbably difficult.

                The point is, if your relative uses Bible Passages to deceive you, or get an advantage of you. Well. You can do the same and show his hypocrisy.

                edit: disclosure I am not a Christian, just well studied.

                • frewer on 28/01/2022 - 11:02

                  @Kangal: It's a metaphor … Simple one cant have the cake & eat it too. And her father want the cake & eat it too lol. Im converted Christian, my decision to become Christian was a 'costly' one.

              • macrocephalic on 28/01/2022 - 13:44
                +1

                @frewer: So there's a third option? It seems like a binary choice from my understanding of Christian religion: Be rich and go to hell, or not be rich and have the opportunity to go to heaven.

      • Bren20 on 27/01/2022 - 10:39
        +4

        I thought justice was a core part of most religions…

        • Blitzfx on 27/01/2022 - 15:37
          +1

          Partly true. A lot of western morals and what is considered right & wrong are derived from theological teachings from the past.
          Morals influence culture, and politics are downstream from culture, so our justice system will have some roots in it

      • ribze1 on 27/01/2022 - 11:04

        Sounds like God has willed it.

      • techlead on 28/01/2022 - 01:08

        What does that even mean? No matter what religion you are in, there are always courts to settle disputes.

    • juki on 27/01/2022 - 09:25
      +3

      threaten to sell your share even at a loss and have him speculate that he'd have to deal with someone else, maybe that way it'll sink in about how much you want cash to do other things

      i have no idea about the legal aspects and just worked 18 hours, so i may as well be giving advice drunk

    • johnwinds on 28/01/2022 - 14:04
      +1

      Is there a chance he helped out with 5% in order to have some influence over not selling the asset, and in turn making sure his daughter had some long term financial stability later in life?

  • ChrisLevo on 26/01/2022 - 14:45
    +23

    Talk to a lawyer.

    Simple answer.

    • frewer on 26/01/2022 - 14:48

      What kind of lawyer, is there a specialized one in this area ?

      • AustriaBargain on 26/01/2022 - 15:08
        +94

        A maritime lawyer who specialises in luxury yachts.

        • WhyAmICommenting on 27/01/2022 - 20:57

          There must be high yield investment lawyers everywhere these days!

        • Skinnerr on 29/01/2022 - 12:12

          Dont forget tree and bird law.

      • freefall101 on 26/01/2022 - 15:09
        +4

        Property lawyer

  • pharkurnell on 26/01/2022 - 14:49
    +2

    IF his name is on the legal documents, I dont like your chances of selling without his go ahead

    • CrowReally on 26/01/2022 - 17:16
      +8

      The biggest thing is whose name is on the title = if it's just hers then in the absence of any other legal agreement (e.g. 'here's my 5% of the funding and I'm owed 5% of future gains), she can probably do what she wants? Find out about the title, google it up (tenants in common versus joint tenants, if it's mentioned) and then speak to a solicitor

  • Hithere on 26/01/2022 - 15:01
    +4

    Can she sell her share to her Father?

    A snowball's chance in hell otherwise.

  • screensaver on 26/01/2022 - 15:18
    +6

    why so much nastiness to a sick person? Must make you proud. Trolls are such short, ugly creatures

    • Tee Rex Arms on 26/01/2022 - 15:22

      What?

    • brendanm on 26/01/2022 - 16:57
      +5

      Perhaps you could do a reading comprehension course Pam? The sick person is ops "she".

      • CrowReally on 26/01/2022 - 17:12
        +4

        I can't believe pam outed herself as a self-admitted troll after all these years

    • Heaps for Cheaps on 26/01/2022 - 18:04
      +5

      I agree. It's sad that people come on for advice and everybody treats it like a comedy festival.

      • ProlapsedHeinous on 26/01/2022 - 19:06
        +11

        If you want proper advice, see a lawyer. everything else is fair game i'm afraid.

        • Blitzfx on 27/01/2022 - 15:40
          +13

          ozbargain mods: "lets bring awareness to RUOK day"
          ozbargain users: "haha eat shit and die"

  • screensaver on 26/01/2022 - 15:22

    Worst case scenario you may have to wait until he dies. Hopefully it wont come to that.

    • cashless on 27/01/2022 - 15:13
      +6

      Even that might not work if he has bequeathed his 5% to someone else in his will.

      • macrocephalic on 28/01/2022 - 13:46
        +1

        But you can probably force the sale when you're executing the will.

  • 87percent on 26/01/2022 - 15:49
    +11

    Buying 7 years ago in Geelong for $350k, doesn’t sound like a naive person! Probably worth a lot more now

    • frewer on 26/01/2022 - 16:51
      +6

      This is hid mentality, as I post up there. Things change … but he is like a hard-old-settled-mule, wont see her point of view … the house could be worse 20mil on PAPER.

      And we all know it, if $ isnt in your pocket then it isnt your $. Or in the crypto world, not your key not your money.

      EDIT: You have no idea, how much headache & pain this situation causes

      • May4th on 27/01/2022 - 08:54
        +1

        not your key not your money

        this doesn't quite mean what you think it means if you are referring to paper gains

  • Quantumcat on 26/01/2022 - 16:59
    +6

    Can the daughter sell the 95% share to somebody? Who is living there?

    • frewer on 26/01/2022 - 17:18

      She would … but no one is living beside him ( 4 bedrooms house ) … We did tried to get people in for years … the longest is a few weeks, then they left

      • Quantumcat on 26/01/2022 - 18:07
        +6

        Whoever buys the share could evict him, and then pay him 5% of the market rent?

        I agree with others that it is a good idea to talk to a lawyer - things that seem common sense might not be possible, and there could be other things she can do that we wouldn't be able to come up with

  • [Deactivated] on 26/01/2022 - 17:14
    +2

    So many questions!

    She never stay there, beside a few holidays.

    Is it a holiday house?

    ( we did tried many times to talk him to rent out the place, but he said no lol ).

    Is the house currently occupied? Has the 95% owner received rent from the property since purchase?

    • frewer on 26/01/2022 - 17:22
      +3

      This is the funny bit, his intention was holiday/family house. No Im not kidding you, he is staying there since they bought it.

      Has the 95% owner received rent from the property since purchase?

      Never.

      • AndyC1 on 26/01/2022 - 17:31

        Is he paying anything? Rent or council bills or looking after the place?

      • [Deactivated] on 26/01/2022 - 17:36
        +5

        sheesh ! Is the Geelong home the only property the Dad owns?

        Definitely seek out a lawyer to find out what option/s (if any) are available to your friend/partner/spouse/relative under the circumstances. Have a look at the Victorian Register of Lawyers Search where you can search by area of practice, accredited specialisation or language.

        • frewer on 26/01/2022 - 20:02
          +1

          Is the Geelong home the only property the Dad owns?

          Yes

          • Melencir on 26/01/2022 - 20:33
            +12

            @frewer: If he's staying there and there's no other place he owns, he might be worried about what would happen to him after the sale. Eg where would he live? How would he survive? Would it affect his pension? Would his expenditure go up? Can he afford it? Would he be losing friends or community connections he has made if he has to move? If you can squash his concerns, he might be more amenable to releasing his share

          • [Deactivated] on 26/01/2022 - 21:53
            +1

            @frewer: I suspected as much.

            I hope things work out for the best for you and your wife.

      • Alphaeus on 27/01/2022 - 09:23
        +17

        This is your answer. Your wife bought her dad a house. He is getting a sweet deal living rent free for 5% of the cost of a mortgage. If you think about it from his perspective why would he want to give that up?

        You're going to have to apply some gentle financial leverage otherwise nothing is going to change. At the very least you should be charging him 95% of the market rate on rent. That way there is very little difference between him living there or selling and moving out.

        • macrocephalic on 28/01/2022 - 13:48
          +1

          Seeing as he's not renting then there's no obligation for her to keep it in a suitable condition. Get the utilities shut off.

  • bobbieb on 26/01/2022 - 17:15
    +9

    IANAL, but I expect it will ultimately depend on what if anything was done legally to formalize the 95%-5% relationship.

    https://legalvision.com.au/joint-tenancy-and-tenants-in-comm…

    If everything was set up as Tenants in Common, then she could theoretically sell her 95% share, but I'm not sure who would be willing to buy into such an arrangement.

    Otherwise you're potentially looking at trying to get a court-ordered partition.

    • frewer on 26/01/2022 - 20:09
      +1

      Gotta make a phone call to the bank then. Cheers

    • duchy on 27/01/2022 - 15:50
      +5

      No one sane would buy partial ownership of a house. What a headache!

    • cadwalader on 27/01/2022 - 18:38
      +1

      If everything was set up as Tenants in Common, then she could theoretically sell her 95% share, but I'm not sure who would be willing to buy into such an arrangement.

      Could sell the 95% for 70-80%. The buyer could move their family in and occupy 3 out of 4 of the rooms, take over the kitchen, do their own things, own lots of birds, reptiles, dogs and cats. Offer to buy the dad out for 7-10% after awhile. Still a pretty good deal all up.

      • frewer on 27/01/2022 - 18:39
        +1

        LOL that would drive him mental, he has a particular way to do particular at particular time.

        • cadwalader on 27/01/2022 - 18:46

          I know a few extended families like this. If I had a large and boisterous family like this (with enough men), I would happily buy 95% share for 75% of the market value and invite my siblings/parents over. Parents in one room, two sibling couples in two rooms and put the kids in the hall (95% amiright?).

          I wouldn't have birds, reptiles and cats because they're not my thing and I wouldn't adopt/buy an animal just for this adventure but as a dog loving family, pretty sure we'd have 3 dogs in the house as well.

          If the dad lasted 3 month before accepting a 10% buy out, that would still be roughly a 680k price for a 800k house.

          • frewer on 27/01/2022 - 18:49
            +3

            @cadwalader: This make me LOL thank you, I dont think he would last too long.

            • cadwalader on 27/01/2022 - 18:56

              @frewer: Alternatively, you could offer to buy him out for 10% so your wife would be taking 90% instead. Or adjust it to what you're happy with.

              • frewer on 27/01/2022 - 19:02
                +1

                @cadwalader: The main issue is that he has a particular way of thinking and the reality MUST bend to it, not sure it is make sense to you, but that is how he think. Also he has this friend in-property and he listen to that guy more …

                For example: He has this is family/holiday house (whatever that means). We said many many times that there is no chance we will move down there ( this was 6-7 yrs ago). Now he still thinking the same way lol

      • macrocephalic on 28/01/2022 - 13:50
        +2

        Not just three of the four bedrooms, 95% is 3 bedrooms plus 80% of the fourth.

        • frewer on 28/01/2022 - 17:30

          LOL let's say he want more than that. It has 3bd + a good size study/lounge very roomy & modern house

  • rektrading on 26/01/2022 - 17:26
    -4

    A 51% share is a majority controlling share.

    She can rent or sell it and pay her father his share of the gain.

    Sue him if he refuses to play ball.

    • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 27/01/2022 - 12:34
      +16

      That's completely wrong, but hey what else are the OzB for.

    • Zapwap on 27/01/2022 - 14:43

      Sue him if he refuses to play ball.

      No that's not an option, that will be wrong in god's eyes

    • duchy on 27/01/2022 - 15:51
      +2

      No. Incorrect. This is not a company.

      • rektrading on 27/01/2022 - 16:53
        -5

        The father owns only 5% of the asset. The wife with the 95% share can force a sale and make the father pay if they can't come to an agreement.

        His pride is preventing him from thinking rationally.

        • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 27/01/2022 - 18:18
          +4

          Wrong again. She cannot. She would need to obtain orders from VCAT or the SupCt - and this process can be expensive without any guarantee those orders will be granted.

          • rektrading on 27/01/2022 - 18:34
            +1

            @Typical16-bitEnjoyer: Of course, she can.

            The wife can use the legal system to force the sale. The process being expensive will be an advantage to force a capitulation.

            • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 28/01/2022 - 16:27

              @rektrading: She cannot. It's the old man's primary place of residence. She'll likely be fighting this for years, and there's no guarantee she has years left.

              Next time just comment "OP see a lawyer" like a regular OzB pleb.

  • Almost Banned on 26/01/2022 - 17:49
    +18

    Holy crap mate.
    Turning to a forum like this for legal advice is a mug's game - as the above comments make clear.
    Every state I can think of has a legal option for forced sale at the application of an owner (some places require an owner with not less than 50%).
    In your case Part IV of the PLA gives the power to VCAT to force a sale.
    Please go see a lawyer.

    • Almost Banned on 26/01/2022 - 18:29
      +5

      As for 'are they tenants in common' the starting place would be to check the title.

    • frewer on 26/01/2022 - 20:09
      +6

      Yeah, sometime ozbargainer can give really advice. There are a few good one already, gotta make a few phone call tomorrow. Sometime I wish he is just like many other 'normal' father …

  • Heaps for Cheaps on 26/01/2022 - 18:06
    +5

    You could find a lawyer referral from Law Institute Victoria: https://www.liv.asn.au/
    You can even narrow the search to lawyers that speak your native language

    • frewer on 26/01/2022 - 20:03
      +4

      Thank you for that.

  • iNeed2Pee on 26/01/2022 - 18:22

    Sounds like a great dad……what a douche.

    • frewer on 26/01/2022 - 20:07
      +6

      His intention is good, however when it comes to execution/translate that intention into action … Let's says it not that good … God still loves him

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